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CODE GEASS R2 – 17

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Summary:

As the Black Knights begin their attack on the Kagoshima coastline, they are met by the Britannian forces under the command of the Knight of One. Bismarck knows that they only have to protect Area 11 while the other Britannian royalty and Knight of Rounds use the chance to attack the rest of the United Federation of Nations, but the Black Knight strategy is to liberate Japan so that other Britannian Areas will rise up on their own. As the battle progresses, Luciano has no problem shredding his opponents, and with the Black Knight offensive weakening, Bismarck notes that this is too easy for an attack by Zero. Lelouch, however, is not leading the attack. Instead, he’s gone to the Kururugi shrine that he and Nunnally originally arrived at eight years ago. It was here that he met Suzaku, and Suzaku became his first friend. That friend is waiting for him at the top of the steps, but Suzaku treats Lelouch with contempt when Lelouch explains that he came alone – in accordance with their promise – because Suzaku doesn’t believe in the promises that Lelouch makes. In response to this, Lelouch points out that Suzaku came alone as well, so Suzaku reveals that he doesn’t want to lie anymore. He feels horrible about lying to Nunnally, but more importantly, he questions his friendship with Lelouch after how Lelouch has betrayed him and everyone else, including Euphemia.

During all this, the Ikaruga is underwater on a different mission away from the main battles, and both Asahina and Chiba Nagisa are getting suspicious about what Zero is up to despite Toudou’s faith in their leader. Diethard and Ougi are onboard the Ikaruga as well, but the two are meeting privately while Villetta is tied up elsewhere. Ougi thinks that Diethard is threatening him, but Diethard claims to only want Ougi to continue working as a member of the Black Knights. Diethard feels that Ougi is ordinary compared to the others in the organization, and he sees value in someone like that. Back at the shrine, Lelouch takes complete responsibility for what Euphemia did and for Shirley’s death, but he feels that his sins have nothing to do with Nunnally, and he gets on his knees to beg Suzaku to save her. Suzaku refuses to forgive him though and pushes Lelouch’s face into the ground with his foot. He wants Euphemia brought back to life if Lelouch wants to apologize, and he challenges Lelouch to save the world with malice given how Zero is supposed to be able to perform miracles. With no other choice, Lelouch admits that there are no miracles – everything is calculated and staged – and that Zero’s mask is a symbol used for nothing more than lying. Thus, he can’t bring back the past and start over again.

Still frustrated, Suzaku demands to know why Lelouch gave him the “Live” command, why Lelouch saved him after he was accused of murdering Clovis, and why Lelouch saved everyone during the hotel hijack incident. Lelouch gives him a frank answer each time, but – from personal experience – Suzaku can tell that Lelouch is accepting punishment to hide a secret. He finally tells Lelouch that there’s only one way to atone for the lies, and that’s to make those lies into truth. Suzaku wants Lelouch to keep with his lie until the very end by ending this war as Zero in a way that brings peace and happiness to everyone. In such a case, Suzaku would save Nunnally and work with Lelouch. Lelouch is willing to do this, but before he can take Suzaku’s hand, Britannian soldiers and Knightmares appear out of nowhere and surround them. Although Suzaku is surprised, Lelouch immediately assumes that Suzaku betrayed him again and is furious at his former friend. At around this same time, Gino is showing Kallen a scrapbook that Suzaku kept, and Gino notes that he’s never seen Suzaku smile like he is in the pictures. Gino then points out that Kallen is half Eleven and half Britannian, and he notes that if she chose to use Stadtfeld instead of Kouzuki, then she could have lived a good life – perhaps even become a Knight of Rounds. In short, he wants to know if she’d has any intentions of returning to the Britannian side.

By now, Lelouch has been taken to a car by Guilford and is met by a video feed of Schneizel. Schneizel views the revelation of Zero’s identity being Lelouch as tragic, however he promises to mediate between Lelouch and their father so that Lelouch’s life is spared. Since he’s Lelouch’s older brother, Schneizel asks Lelouch to trust him, but Lelouch decides that he’s done with trusting people after the betrayal of friendship. Lelouch then touches the collar of his jacket, and this causes a Geass effect to activate in Guilford. Unbeknownst to everyone, Guilford had earlier gone to a warehouse to meet Jeremiah but had been instead been put under a Geass effect by Lelouch: when Lelouch touches his collar, Guilford will recognize him as Cornelia. Because of this, Guilford frees Lelouch and, and as they fly off, Lelouch bids farewell to his first and last friend. That friend is brought before Schneizel afterwards, and Schneizel asks him if he knows why Guilford betrayed them, connecting it with how Suzaku acted back on Kaminejima. Suzaku tries to avoid the topic, but Schneizel goes on to question who Suzaku is and how he sees himself. Schneizel feels that if Suzaku doesn’t answer, then everyone else will be thrown into an unfair battle, and he wonders how far Suzaku intends to continue the chain of sorrow.

That night, after Guilford brings him back to the Shinkirou, Lelouch arrives at the Tokyo settlement and activates the Gefjun Disturbers aboard all the trains around the city. Doing so knocks out all power and all Britannian defenses, and Lelouch then calls on Toudou and the forces traveling with the Ikaruga who have been sneaking towards the city by water. He already has Rolo on the ground ready to go get Nunnally, and despite the tears in his eyes, Lelouch tells himself that he was mistaken for trying to rely on sympathy and pity. He now believes that he can’t get Nunnally back unless he’s puts himself in the perfect state of being cold and ruthless. Schneizel meanwhile has finally come to understand everything thanks to Suzaku, and he thinks that he holds all the cards. Kanon tells Suzaku that such a battle wouldn’t have occurred if he had revealed everything to Schneizel from the beginning, and though they can’t punish Suzaku since he’s a Knight of Rounds, Kanon urges him to find his own answer to the sin in his heart. This leaves Suzaku unsure of what to do and wondering if his only choice is to pilot the Lancelot and use the Freya on Lelouch.

Preview

CODE GEASS R2   17   Preview 01 CODE GEASS R2   17   Preview 02 CODE GEASS R2   17   Preview 03

With this latest falling out, it’s somewhat hard to see how Lelouch and Suzaku will ever reconcile again, even if what happened wasn’t really Suzaku’s fault. I think the best chance lies with Suzaku saving Nunnally in a situation where Lelouch is powerless, and the two would then have to find the ability to forgive each other. That’s not entirely out of the question because despite his calculating nature, Lelouch has shown soft spots for everyone he loves and trusts, and him fighting back tears demonstrates just how much Suzaku’s betrayal hurt him. I suspect that if Suzaku died protecting Lelouch or Nunnally, then Lelouch might consider him a friend again. Similarly, I don’t think that Lelouch can become as cold and ruthless as he wants to be, especially since it carries the irony of making him just like his father. On the other side, Suzaku likely feels at least a little guilty for leading Schneizel to Lelouch, and part of him probably wants to try to fix things again. The problem is that there’s a nuclear weapon in his hands now, and they’ve made a big enough deal about it to make me think that it’s just a matter of time before its used. If Suzaku ends up killing a lot of civilians or something, that’ll just add to his guilt and make things all the more complicated and unpredictable.

Aside from all the Suzaku and Lelouch stuff, the scenes between Kallen and Gino were also noteworthy because it’s looking more and more like Gino is going to be the one who’ll set her free. I originally thought Suzaku would do it to atone for almost using Refrain on her, but Gino’s now paid multiple visits to her, all of them shown in positive lights, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it were him (or even if they eventually hooked up). That’s assuming of course that Kallen doesn’t just escape somehow during all the chaos of the upcoming battle. The one thing that was notably missing, on the other hand, was what happened after Villetta and Ougi fell off the cliff two episodes ago. As far as I can tell, they both survived the water landing just fine but Villetta got captured, and Diethard is holding that over Ougi. We still haven’t seen Ougi actually speak again with Villetta though, so it’s possible it could still come up in a flashback. Ultimately, I get the feeling that their relationship could end tragically, though with the way things are going, I get that feeling about a lot of characters right now. The preview would have us believe that even Nunnally may not be safe.

August 3, 2008 at 5:28 am
274 comments »
  • August 4, 2008 at 11:11 pmMax

    I certainly hope that we could see Lelouch at Ashford Academy one more time. Ever since Shirley’s death, it has been nothing but battle after battle with each episode for Lelouch. He still has to confront Milly over the death of Shirley, unless she gets killed off in the Tokyo Attack.

    It would have been nice if CG R2 was extended to 50 episodes. Instead, they want to end it with the projected 25 episodes. The fans were the one who has made this series successful. Why end it when it could be expanded?

    I hope to see a Milly x Lelouch special moment to talk about everything between them. The producers has given away so many clue into Milly’s character and her secret feelings towards Lelouch. It’s time that we see a resolution between Milly and Lelouch.

  • August 5, 2008 at 1:02 amSilentveil

    WingZero zxt at 3:38 pm on August 4th, 2008
    @Silentveil

    1. Not really, the reason is kind of murky to me
    2. Actually, he has been shot, beaten, framed with the goal of execution, and pretty much asked to commit suicide by Brittiana, and on the Japanese side. Well, assassination attempts, beat downs, and the fact that everyone hates his guts. Geesh, who is actually on this guy’s side? No one seems to hesitate to try and kill him, while, Lelouche can insight a rebellion without he risk of death when captured.
    3. Lelouche killed his girlfriend for pity sake & the one he was suppose to protect. Which can be seen as a really sore spot no matter the reasoning, and even if she wasn’t his girlfriend …a real slap in the face to be called her knight. Then the entire Shirley incident, how many people do he have to kill before you just want to waste the guy.
    4. Check out the last episode of the first season, or maybe that is the first episode of the second season. Either way, when they had the shoot off, Lelouche wasn’t exactly aimming for Suzaku’s leg there. He shot the ear piece off of his head. So, ummm…what do you call that? Now let’s look where Suzaku aim his gun, so really, who was trying to kill who? Neither wants the other dead, that is quite obvious, and let’s go one further. Suzaku didn’t want to kill Zero period even in the beginning, because he could have blown Lelouche away …way at the mountain episode …the one before you find out about Shirley’s dad.
    5. You know, even that statement sounds unsure. I want you to list off …more than three things that you can blame Suzaku for …in the series & was on his head. REally, name three, because to be quite frank …the capturning Zero thing was his job in the first place. Though, I was really surprise he let Lelouche live, because, that wasn’t in his job description. In fact, I can’t figure out why he didn’t beat the hell out of him before turning him in. So, really, I want to see your list.

  • August 5, 2008 at 1:17 amSilentveil

    Angelmonster@

    That’s a funny statement to make. You think Suzaku is an idiot for not wanting to cause a bunch of blood shed trying to tear down an entire government, and having enough forethought to see that if he does that …he really is no better than the ones whom did it in the first place. You know, toppling a governement isn’t easy, and worst still, unless you exile/kill the people whom was originally apart of it …almost impossible to achieve. Now let’s not forget, you got to replace it with something, and then you have to defend what you built not only from the outside, but the inside. A palor trick that is hard to pull off, and the reason …the entire code Geass thing is happening in the first place.

    You know, rebel groups will pop up, because someone loved the original government.

    Instead, he wanted to take the hand he was dealt, and make it positive …no matter how bad it is. REally, bad Suzaku …bad Suzaku. He wanted, instead of taking Japan away by force, and thus make it another war zone for however long it takes for the country to be free …to win the countries freedom. To have it acknowledge by Britianna, and thus, make it Japan again without having to have a bloodbath. Under him, the country could gain back it’s pride, it’s stance, and maybe even it’s military so that it can actually fight for itself.

    Yes, it might take a while, but anything worth doing takes time.

  • August 5, 2008 at 1:30 amjeffng9

    i wonder if gino will join kallen to black knights if she answer that she won’t return to britania side ever…

  • August 5, 2008 at 2:47 amDarkloco

    This episode has to be the most frustrating one of all time for me. Suzaku again manages to make zero sense to me on many levels. One second he is so full of rage and hatred that he steps on lulus head vowing to never forgive him. The very next second hes telling lulu to continue lying and stay as zero to the very end wanting to be friends again. Then after he is caught in the act, he quickly betrays lulu just from a few lines from Schneizel telling him about geass and everything. Then on top of that betrayal, a few words from Schneizels underling and he goes deeper in his betrayal thinking of killing lulu. All in one episode!!!! I mean the writers really love to Shit on us… it was the most irrational shift of emotions ive ever witnessed!!!! Nina needs to die, suzaku definitely needs to die,the writers need to die,and i need to die for even thinking for a second that suzaku might not be such a bad guy before the double betrayal irrational emotions run rampant drama i witnessed!!!

  • August 5, 2008 at 3:07 aminvAZN

    @ Angelmonster “Ragnarok, I believe, is just going to be a video showing the world that Zero is Lelouch in the middle of this high scale battle. In it somehow it will be doctored up to show the Emperor and Lelouch as having a positive relationship and this entire time they were in on this all together so they could gain control of the rest of the world.”

    - Angel, I believe you win. Going by my unfortunate knowledge of spoilers, I do think this will turn those who believed in Zero against him. This is DEFINTIELY supported by the fact that Charles managed to hack his way into the United Nations broadcast.

    And yeah, he’ll probably rewrite people’s memories with his Geass. And try to somehow accomplish a world without lies. And everyone will sympathize with ol’ Charles. Only to have his body blown up by multiple Freyas, followed by Schneizel revealing his true urge to dominate the world. Yes, I do speak what’s on my mind lols.

  • August 5, 2008 at 3:41 amWingZero zxt

    Silent Veil

    1. OBviously its because atleast for me he JOINed a RASCIST government
    2. Because hes a naive and a traitor a.k.a annoying and scum!!! (and you expect people to like him pftt)
    3. (pavarotti from the grave:) ACCIDEEEEEEEEEEENT also your blaming lelouch for shirleys death SERIOUSLY!!?? by your reasoning then suzaku is responsible for all of that by killing his father and making Japan a focal point for resistance movements!!!! Shirleys death was ALL rolo and no one likes Rolo (i think). You can say what you want about the killings but at the end of the day lelouch isnt the one with a WMD attached to his KMF!!!
    (although shinkirous main weapon is awesome!)

    4. Fair point i genuinely forgot that suzaku pulled a matrix and dodged a bullet at the end of season 1 However Suzaku didnt know lelouch wa Zero during mountain incident they didnt know each other did what they did in thier spare time so that doesnt really apply

    5. Erm let me think (3… 2…oyheh)
    He killed his father (causing obvious problems)
    He passified an entire nation of people (by killing his father)
    He was the primary reason lelouch didnt win in S1 and so prevented his nation (cant really say that anymore) from gaining independence (no matter how short lived it may or may not have been !
    Hes a front runner for racial oppresion and war everywhere being a figure head of brittania (BTW his plan is rubbish Suzakus end game means a rubbish world for all but brittania!!!)
    I believe thats four!
    (BTW darkloco makes a good point- no darkloco you cant die because whilst u may have had a lapse of conscience :P you came around and took an action CONTRARY to your original mistake. Suzaku on the other hand… :P)

  • August 5, 2008 at 4:35 amgeorge from the empire of the rising sun

    *gives a high 5 to WingZero zxt*

    Honestly, the real reason why i hate Suzaku is because he’s becoming too EMO and to tell you the truth, I HATE EMOS >:(

    @Angelmonster & invAZN: Ragnarok, in Norse mythology, refers to a series of major events, including a great battle foretold to ultimately result in the death of a number of major figures (including the gods Odin, Thor, Freyr, Heimdall, and the jötunn Loki), the occurrence of various natural disasters, and the subsequent submersion of the world in water. Afterwards, the world resurfaces anew and fertile, the surviving gods meet, and the world is repopulated by two human survivors. Ragnarök is an important event in the Norse canon, and has been the subject of an amount of scholarly discourse and theory.

    and honestly,this really fits because Charles wants to get rid of “Gods” and that is why the Sword of Akasha existed.

    You remember what Charles said in episode 1 of season 1? He said the word Ragnarok when Lelouch is about to accept his contract with C.C. And also remember what Gen. Bartley said to Cornelia in episode 12 in Season 2? He and the scientist hypothesize that Charles’ plans might end humanity…if you say that it a video showing that Lelouch is Zero, then explain why he did he say the Ragnarok in episode 1 of Season 1?

  • August 5, 2008 at 6:43 amGP

    @George

    Uhhh, Aren’t there other “emo” characters as well? Or have we twisted the meaning of it to cover only those who are depressed in some way or beat themselves up over their actions?

    To me the show has lots of “emo” or rather emotional characters, not just Suzaku.

    I think people have somehow twisted the meaning behind emo to fit a specific character type they don’t like. And thus toss it out as the reason they don’t.

  • August 5, 2008 at 9:08 amdth

    Awesome episode here.

    Lelouch is officially a fully cold-hearted man from now on… but i really doubt that myself. As long as Nunnaly is there, his soft side will remain. Lelouch remains a man to take full responsibility of his actions.

    Suzaku remains ever confused with himself when Schneizel questioning his loyalty. Really, he should just join Zero putting his feelings for Euphy aside. It might create the peace & happiness Euphy wanted.

    Did anyone wonder what would happen if he saw TWO Cornelia’s!? Oh, poor Guildford.

    I like the Gino with Kallen scene where they look back on some school photos. I found it strange for Gino to trust Kallen so easily. He isnt calculating so I think Schneizel has gotten some Kight of Rounds to go against the emperor and needs Kallen to help. Hmmm…. plot twists

    Todou’s subordinates still doesnt trust Zero. SO there could be a betrayal but unlikely as it wouldnt lead to anything significant.

    C.C.’s short screentime made everyone think Lelou has given an engagement ring but Sunrise is merely poking at us viewers=p

    Once Suzaku zaps the Tokyo with Nina’s nuke, i expect Lord Bradley “Vampire of Brittania” to die in the crossfire along with many elevens. Suzaku’s gonna freak out & we’ll all hate the racist bitch more.

    Schneizel now seems pretty cocky in beating Lelouch. But I dont think knowing about Geass will help very much. Unless he’s planning to take on the emperor…

    Ragnarok. what a suitable name for the device to re-create the world. I think it’s something like Yuri’s Mind control towers all around the world (Red Alert 2:YR).

    Cant believe Lelou really trusts the creepy Rolo to save his raison d’etre. Super Meido as an assurance is pointless against a Geass user. Hmmmm, Hope nothing happens to Nunnaly =S

    Also, an anime actually made it to Blu-Ray! Wow! Shows there might even be an encode higher than that of gg and Eclipse combined!

  • August 5, 2008 at 10:30 ammagixiii

    Here is my theroy on who Anya is. This is based on rummors that have been going around.
    Anya is the real daughter of Marianne. One day they met the orphaned Lelouch and Nunnally and Marianne decided to adopt them. Know that the royal family wouldn’t accept them, Marianne decided to have Anya and Lelouch marry thus making Lelouch and Nunnally truly part of the family. At some point Anya probably fell in love with Lelouch, which is why she has the picture of him. When Lelouch and Nunnally were sent into exile Charles errased their’s and everyone else’s memorys to belive that Lelouch and Nunnally were always royality and not Anya. Again this is based on rummors, so tell me what you think.

  • August 5, 2008 at 11:01 amWingZero zxt

    *Graciously accepts high 5*

    @Magixii I agree with anya being mariannes daughter but not about the Lelouch/Nunally not being of royal blood! More plausible (especially as the makers went through so much trouble to have lelouch and Nunally inherit some of the emperors features i.e Nunally’s hair and Lelouch’s eyes) is that Anya is a illegitimte child of marriane with some other adulterer!

  • August 5, 2008 at 11:10 amlilu

    Anya looks like V.V.(espacially face)

  • August 5, 2008 at 11:25 amGP

    You know, Anya having the same hairstyle as Marianne could just be sunrise trying to throw you a curve ball. I’ll hold off until some mag spoilers say so or we see it in a future episode.

  • August 5, 2008 at 1:34 pmSilentveil

    WingZero@
    1. Actually the governement is Dawism, they believe the strong trumps the weak. Thus, if you are weak …you have no rights. It’s not a matter of racism, it’s a matter of ..whomever holds the power decide the rules. Thus, Suzaku’s plan to gain power so he can change the rules is kind of legitmate.

    Japanese are weak right now, so they are being crushed under the shoes of the strong, and that will spawn racism. Though that is not the intention of the government.

    2. A traitor how? He didn’t decide to give up on Japan or turn against it, but decided to take it back in another way. Call him a traitor if you want, but at least, his goal is to free Japan someday. Lelouche doesn’t even care about the country at first, and its more of a revenge thing/give his sister the world.

    3. Do you think anyone’s love ones care if the death is accidentally, and how in the hell do you accidently shoot someone after searching for that person to shoot. The Geass was accidental, the shooting was not. Rolo’s situation, if Lelouche would have man up in the first place, the entire thing with Shirley wouldn’t have happen. That is more accidental than the Eurphy thing.

    4. Though Suzaku pretty much ripped the Knightmare apart he doesn’t aim to destory the pilot cockpit. Thus, even though he doesn’t know whom Zero is …he just want him captured not killed. I don’t think Lelouche felt the same way about him though in the same situation

    5. Ooooh, pick me, pick me …my counter!
    a.He killed his father (Yeah, because his father wanted to do a kamikaze, his plan was going to fail and would have ended in getting everyone killed. Even Lelouche points that out, to struggle just to be struggling is an honorable death, but its still death.)

    b. Isn’t this the same offense, because one is the result of the other. Though, I guess if you need to stretch it abit, why not break it into two parts.

    Anyway, How did he passify a nation? He didn’t kill his father for them, he did it to save everyone from her father’s suicidal last stand. IN fact, his father’s murder by him was even covered up, so yeah, it’s public knowledge that passified the Britianna enough not to murder everyone & get him into the lowest rank in the army. No, the fact is, if I got it right, is that the resistances no longer had a central leader, and thus couldn’t get it together enough to fight back.

    c. Wow, one man can beat the hell out of an army. No, if you check the first episode, if it wasn’t for Suzaku, Lelouche would have been dead. So, ummm…no, Suzaku’s isn’t Lelouche’s problem …it’s his entire plan that is problematic, because, even if he would have gotten control of Japan …keeping it would have tore the place apart. That’s not to mention, the guy has a power that can make people shoot themselves, but Suzaku without any power …is the one to stop his plans. You know that is kind of ironic, and I kind of want you to explain how that happen as well.

    d.
    Wow, piloting a knightmare [because he is that good] as the only Eleven allowed to do so
    Becaming Eurphy’s knight [because he is a good guy & managed to impress her]
    Being the only eleven to go to an all Brittianna school [because Eurphy decided he needed to do so]
    Reaching the ranks of Knight of Round [by capturing a criminal whom killed not one, but two members of the royal family & is responsible for the death of countless innocents], and having enough sense to ask for that position

    A racial oppressor, how?
    I really feel sometimes that I am the only one whom actually watches the show.

    The true is, Suzaku had become a symbol of the fact that if one works hard enough, you can make even the Britianna people acknowledge your worth. This was a threat to Lelouche at one point, and assassining him was even considered. Because, you know, the Black Knights are only effective as long as the Japensese feels that there is no other way out of thier situation & the Britianna people continue to consider the Japanese as being lower than dogs. Having raise in ranks like that, kind of undermine this feeling, and gave the Japanese a reason to hope for something better. The entire Eurphy’s situation, was the apex of this hope, if she wouldn’t have been Geass …the entire resistance would have crumbled.

    Thus, Eurphy’s geass & murder destoryed that symbol for Suzaku as well.

    Now, lapdog …might seem more what the symbol Suzaku could stand for now. A traitor, if you don’t know the situation, that is a yes, but racial oppessor? More like, he is seen as being the knight of a mass murder whom tricked the Japanese to thier death, which, laughable enough is one big misunderstanding on Lelouche’s side. One that everyone say …accidentally happen, and should be forgotten. Forget the end results of that entire mess, but, feel sympathy for lelouche [sarcasm]. It turn Suzaku into the white reaper, the knight, of the Murder Princess. So, really, I don’t get your symbol at all? In fact, it doesn’t even make sense …I want to know what scene in the show did he show signs of racial oppressing. In fact, he actually found someone whom was going to give everyone what they wanted, which, is Japanese equal status.

    They didn’t give a flip about whom govern them if they could get that.

    Lelouche and the Black Knights couldn’t handle that because …

    Because, the Black knights are fear mongrels, and they exist on fear and hatred. Take that away and they no longer exist, while, Suzaku is working on the premise of understanding and reconcilation. That is kind of why, even as pissed as he is with Lelouche …he does in the end agree to work with him again. Because, you know, that is the identity of his character, or better yet, my opinion of it.

    SO yeah, and no character is more Emo than lelouche. He starts a war that tore the world apart for the reasons of revenge and finding his sister a safe place to live. Can you get any more Emo that than?

  • August 5, 2008 at 1:46 pmSilentveil

    WingZxt@

    intercepts the highfive@

    Ummm….the thing with Anya, might not be any of that. Though I guess that would give the Empoeror a reason to kill her, but, then that wouldn’t make any sense for why she has holes in her memory. After what happen with Marianne, if the Emporoer is such a punk, he would have wipe her memory completely and then dropped her off somewhere …where she would never be seen again, kind of like with Lelouche and Nunnnelly. Not make her a knight of the rounds, that doesn’t make sense. I would take it more that she knows whom is Marianne actually killer, but, why does she need to keep being Geass is beyond me.

    So, my reasoning makes no sense, and can more than likely be forgotten.

  • August 5, 2008 at 4:40 pmWingZero zxt

    ILL ANSWER THE REST LATER TONIGHT (G.M.T.) but for now let me just say LOL at suzaku not being a traitor

  • August 5, 2008 at 6:29 pmStormFangs

    anyone thinks C.C’s face in this ep looked kinda different from the last 2 ones?
    she looked kinda evil,like I got my memories back,Lelouch,so I’ll beat you to a pulp for making me cut myself or something like that,or it’s just me>? XD

  • August 5, 2008 at 6:29 pmFSTA

    Hm, the tragic events before the battle have come full circle. Before it was Suzaku who felt Lelouch betrayed him because of the Euphy incident caused by Geass runaway, and now Lelouch feels Suzaku has betrayed him because of Schneizel.First rule of Geass is that if things look up for Lelouch or Suzaku, something goes wrong. The world does not smile on either.

    I figured that Lelouch wouldn’t tell Suzaku the real reasoning behind many of his actions, that his feelings betray his goals. Lelouch is stuck in a battle between past, present, and future. To avenge his mother and strike the nation that wronged him, to protect and enjoy the companionship of his friends, and to secure a future for his sister. Has he dropped the first two.

    Just as Suzaku did last season, Lelouch has just acted to throw away his feelings and fight. What will happen now? What will Suzaku do? Will he attempt to clear the misunderstanding or take the Zero approach and bear the burden, forgetting his true intentions?

    The rift opening in the Black Knights…I wonder how it will play out. Obviously the older players are feeling a little cheated, if they learn of what has happened, will Lelouch lose his support.

    Ep 16 + 17 thoughts regarding C.C as I was not home during the last ep airing and they apply to both episodes. The C.C moments were cute. I bet Lelouch felt terrible when he smacked her. Perhaps she will have a roll to play in easing Lelouch’s inner turmoil. I thought the moment when he asked how to ease inner pain was great, as it both led Lelouch back to Suzaku and showed C.C’s longing that led her to obtain Geass in the first place. The playing with the bandage, is she developing a crush on Lelouch?

    Just my thoughts…

  • August 5, 2008 at 6:41 pmWingZero zxt

    im bck

    @SilentVeil (lol who else!)

    1. Bleh pithy pedantics and we will discuss suzakus pathetic pipe dream he calls a plan later
    2. LOL seriously LOL cant help it LOL how is he NOT a traitor he a) killed the leader of his country b) join enemy of hi country c) Fights against people trying to rebuild his country and im not just talking about lelocuh im talking about Toudo and Chiba and Kallen and all others WHAT RIGHT DOES HE HAVE other than the one Brittania has given him!!!!

    3. Euphys death was tragic as we all agree however it was neccessary at the time so it can be said that her death was accidental or in the least due to an accident (sorta like when you run over an animal by accident the most humnane thing to do is put it down! If you are angered by this comment because it seems inhumane remind yourself who or what we are talking about!)

    4. Ofcourse not Lelouch isnt a idiot and suzaku has also come to realise that he will have to vaporize the odd enemy task force to achieve his objective! Although FREYA is a BIT to FAR!!!!

    5.a ) Suzaku had no right to dictate international policy for a country at age ten DUH! assuming your american how would you like it if the Bush sisters or Bill Gates Children started running the show on thier tenth birthday!

    b)How am i strectching it ITS A HUGE OFFENSE killing a nations leader its has far reacihng implications particularly near the begining of a war for everyone (pft Strectching it!)

    c) Primary reason because lelouch didnt use him to his fullest potential and was unwilling to discarsd him like he did oh so many others! Also he was to focused on dealing with him in S1 rather then just aving him killed and moving on (which he could of done in almost very episode since he found out about his identity) Also for sme reason he had an odd level of respect for suzaku because he knows why he was the way he was… lelouch just knew he was wrong

    d) THats also wrong. Saying “The true is, Suzaku had become a symbol of the fact that if one works hard enough, you can make even the Britianna people acknowledge your worth.” Is like saying that anakin skywalker is proof that if you work hard enough youll become second in command to the Dark lord of the Sith himself Darth sideous!!!!! it has NOTHING to do with the fact that hes THE CHOSEN one or his natural skills with the FORCE a the HIGEST AMONG ANYONE, NOO if you work hard you can be what you wanna be in brittanias world PFT and you say you were watching!!! (i remind yo at this poin of the hotdog vendor who wanted to go to colledge!!!! in ep with kallens mum in S1) Suzaku is a racial oppressor because Britannia is a Racial oppressor!!!! (i refer you at this point to suzaku pwning the E.U even though he has no business there except under the brittanian banner which u already knew because u quoted him as being the White reaper) LOL at equal STATUS!!! if you slept in a Dog cage with the Dog people would say you were sleeping in a Dogs cage LOL they wouldnt say the Dogs suddenly become the equal of the Human because at the end of the Day that SAME human put him in the CAGE in the first place similarly if you tell 1 million people that they are rubish everywehere else unless they seclude themselves in a small portion of what was once theirs and do excatly what you say and then you choose to lower yourself to that level and live with them, thats not eqaulity thats living in the Slaves quarters and ultimately with poor old nunally being quite literally blind to the situattion thats all they would have been! Slaves!!!!
    Understanding and reconciliation provided you agree with him! pft If someone came to your house stole all your material possesions set fire to your house then built his own slightly bigger house there and offered to rent you a room (A SMALL ROOM incase you are picky) without apologising at al for what he did would say ” Yeh mate i forgive you even though u didnt ask. i like you thanks for the room! i can now fit my family of five into a room with the floor space of a double bed whilst you live it up in the rest of tis mansion you built ontop of the charred patch of land which you took from me??!?!?!?!? if you are prepared to say that! then by all means if you are a home owner TELL ME WHERE YOU LIVE :P

    *Proceeds to punish SilentVeil hard with Anakins lightsaber for daring to interupt high 5 from most esteemed george from the empire of the rising sun*

    At the end of the day, Lelouch vs Suzaku based on thier current end games i sitll favour lelouch because Suzakus win scenario is RUBBISH!!! it involves him being knight of one (beating bismark GOOD LUCK homie [sarcasm]) and liberating (in a fashion) a nation that well and truly hates him fair enough if he wants to be as narrow as lelouch seemed to be (but beecause hes lelouch you cant really say) in S1 thats fine go ahead. unfortunately for you SilentVeil you werent born in Area11 you were Born in Area 9 which was conqueres a few years before area 11 therefore as a ‘NINE’ you wont benefit from suzaku winning infact to you since the world wont have changed the war has been completely pointless

    *Proceeds to whip out Iconic Twin Buster Rifle and blast SilentVeil with continued illustration*

    Before you began you new life as a ‘NINE’ you were a reasonably talented professor of Botany at your countries leading reasearch institute. But then brittania invaded and with the invasion you lost: yuor research grant, Your personal lab, All your assistants, your high paid job. If you are normal person you are now upset. Brittania eventually (reasonably quickly) prevails against your countries armed forces. With this you ofcourse lose: Your house, Your spouse (died in random explosion), Your kids (died in military service cos they signed up out of despair and obvious anger) A normal person would now be either dead inside or insane with anger and hatred, or best case scenario trying to make the best of it.

    5 Years Pass….

    During the five years despite yur animosity you work really hard. you fine yourself a nice second spouse because whilst you are quite old by this point she/he loves you and keeps you company having also lost her/his family. you worked really hard (rebuilding your country in the image of britannia as a near slave) and you are finally rewarded by being promoted to chief gardener for the lord who currently lives on the patch of land that used to be yours!!!! Congratulations slightly better than average researcher youve worked hard all your life but now youve finally made it!
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!PFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I would write one of these for Lelouch but its late im tired and i really ought not to have to explain such a simple point of suzakus end game being narrow, selfish and lame in such detailed monologue in the first place!

  • August 5, 2008 at 8:33 pmAzen

    gino and kallen hooking up? lol does not make any sense at all

    my japanese may not be first class but i’m pretty sure gino was there looking for suzaku not kallen and this was there first interaction ever how did you get a pairing from that

  • August 5, 2008 at 8:51 pmAzen

    I say gino and suzaku make a good pairing after this episode

  • August 5, 2008 at 9:40 pmmalcriado

    @WingZero zxt
    Bravo! Bravo! You came and literally lighted on fire that suzaku lover!! Just kidding!! Excellent explanation though
    Where is kallsin i miss her comments.

  • August 5, 2008 at 11:41 pmKalessin

    If you mean me malcriado, I’m right here. I just haven’t had much interesting to say before WingZero zxt and Silentveil started their arguments and since that started, I haven’t had time to post until now. Oh, and I’m a guy. And if you didn’t mean me, well, all that still applies. It just means that you weren’t saying anything about me and my comments. In any case…. I will compose a post on the running discussion shortly.

  • August 6, 2008 at 12:06 amSilentveil

    Wingzero ZXT@

    1. Okay, this number is just here

    2. a)answer: 5a
    b)With the intentions of freeing his country through less bloody means
    c)How is insighting a rebellion and turning your country into a war zone, rebuilding it? Let’s see what rights does Suzaku have that Brittiana gives him, the right to regain control of his country if he becomes Knight of one. Sounds like a pretty good right to me.

    3. Wow, Eurphy is on the same level as a dog. Geesh, let’s hope that your kids never get hit by a car, because, the humane thing for you to do isn’t to take them to the hospital but shoot them. The Geass is an accident, the shooting part wasn’t [[ I can't believe you posted that ]]

    4.Odd enemy force? Lelouche’s army isn’t an odd enemy force, but an attacking army. You know if you watch the show …its looks more like a world war is about to happen. Nukes were made for moments such as these, and Freya is no different. Though, right now, we don’t even know if Freya will be used.

    5.
    a) IF it’s a substitue for Bush, I don’t think I would be all that upset. You know, if Suzaku is immune to having the right to make a legatimate decision at age 10, then you can’t condenm his actions at that age as treason either. He is too young to understand the meanings. Thus, there goes one of your reason for him being a traitor. Down to two, if you didn’t read the area above first

    b. You know for the same reason as A, and it doesn’t seem to be that big of a deal in Code Geass anyway. Lelouche killed two, and was seventeen years of age and still isn’t executed. Hell, he isn’t even considered to be a traitor.

    c. Like wise with Suzaku, though he didn’t need to know his identity to kill Zero. He was close enough throughout many of the conflicts, and the fact that he just wanted to capture him was Lelouche’s saving grace. Then between the end of the S1 and the beginning of S2, Suzaku could have killed Lelouche and kept his position. Since, Lelouche still thought of Suzaku as a friend, without his memory, simply call him up. Tell the men to stand down, and then arrange for lelouche to have an accident. End of story, but Suzaku was mad, but not enough to kill his best friend. Obviously.

    d. You know, your examples are kind of way out there. I mean, we are talking about people whom can actually communicate with each other. Not dogs with humans or cats with humans, whom can’t, and if you are going to use animals then stick with animals that can understand each other.

    Anyway, I don’t feel too much like answering the other statements, they are kind of out there. I mean at least stick with the show for pity sake, and if you want a real world example of Suzaku’s decision ….try looking up information on African American history. That is pretty much the best way of seeing the results of tha type of option. Though the degree is much sharper than the one in the series.

    @Man you are getting a little personal aren’t you, okay house issue@

    One on one, and a fair fight. We are going to go for broke, I will fight until I can’t anymore. Though that wasn’t japan’s situation. So for this one let’s change the situation a little, if I only have a pistol, and you have a tank … and a army, and you are going to not only kill me, but my family. You already choose to submit, and you family has become slaves under them.

    You are given two options:

    Work for them, and try to win your families freedom, or escape and join a rebel army and hope your family survive long enough for you to save them. Neither are easy choices, and in the end it all depends on what you value most & your enemies resolve towards your group.

  • August 6, 2008 at 2:16 amKalessin

    Lelouch and Suzaku have taken two very different paths in order to achieve similar goals. They have both made their choices for a number of reasons. Neither of them is 100% pure in their intentions or their actions. Personally, I think that WingZero zxt is far too negative towards Suzaku and that Silentveil is far too positive towards Suzaku, but to each their own I suppose. I hate neither Lelouch nor Suzaku, but I think that they’ve both made a number of poor choices along the way.

    Lelouch’s path is one of rebellion. His position basically states that Britannia must be overthrown. They’re a corrupt government and they have to go. He has both personal reasons for this (revenge for his mother’s death and wanting a better world for Nunnally) and philosophical/altruistic reasons (he’s opposed to the whole survival of the fittest philosophy since it’s nasty towards those that aren’t the fittest and he doesn’t like how “Elevens” have been treated). Under the idea that Britannia is corrupt (and an invader no less), he seeks to overthrow them in Japan – and preferably the world.

    In his quest to overthrow Britannia, he has started a resistance movement (which the Britannians naturally label as terrorists) and fought to injure Britannia and preferably destroy them. In doing so, people have died – both Britannian and Japanese. Some of them were soldiers and some of them were collateral damage – both Britannian and Japanese. He’s done some nasty things all in the pursuit of eliminating Britannia and making the world a better place to live. His outlook very much tends to be along the lines of “the end justifies the means.” He’s not happy about innocent people dying, but his goal must be achieved and he’s going to do what it takes to achieve them. He even said in one of the episodes of season 1 that as bad as it was that innocents had to die, he had to push on or their deaths were in vain.

    If you accept that Britannia is an invader and/or evil government that must be overthrown – or at least thrown out of Japan – then Lelouch’s position makes sense. He’s fighting to overthrow Japan’s oppressors. When someone invades a country and takes it over, it’s fairly normal for resistance movements to pop up. Lelouch just so happens to be a lot better at it than the folks that came before him. So, from that perspective, he’s quite justified in rebelling against Britannia. The main problem, of course, is that there is a cost for it which includes the loss of innocent lives.

    Suzaku, on the other hand, takes the position that rebelling is wrong. Period. In rebelling you’re going against the government. You’re breaking the law. Since breaking the law is wrong, rebelling is wrong. In addition, going against the government inevitably results in the deaths of innocent lives. Suzaku, therefore, holds rebellion as the wrong thing to do and counter-productive. He does not believe that the ends ever justify the means.

    If you’re not going to rebel, however, you don’t have a lot of options if you want to improve things after another country has invaded yours. Just about the only way is to do what Suzaku did – join the government in question and attempt to gain enough power in it to influence it for the better. He’s basically saying that Britannia has won. Unlike Lelouch, he’s not looking to get rid of Japan’s invaders. Instead, he’s trying to make them better people and thus make the situation in Japan better. If you hold rebellion to be wrong, then Suzaku’s choice is really the only honorable and honest way to go.

    Suzaku is thus forced to do Britannian’s dirty work in his quest to change Britannia from within. His actions have given him quite a bit of power within the government and allowed him to influence policy. How much things are better because of him is unclear, but he at least has the opportunity to influence things for the better. Personally, due to the nature of Britannia’s government, I don’t think that his plan is really going to work in the long run (the emperor can overule any positive changes that Suzaku makes if he so chooses), but he’s making a valiant effort at least. He’s holding true to his beliefs that going against the law will only result in ruin.

    Now, Suzaku’s efforts have inevitably put him at odds with Lelouch. Their paths conflict. Lelouch is trying to overthrow the government that Suzaku is trying to improve. They thus impair each other in their respective paths. This brings them into conflict. They have fought on the battlefield on a number of occasions. This conflict went so far that at the end of season 1, Suzaku’s path forced him to turn Lelouch in. He effectively betrayed Lelouch because if he did not, he would be betraying Britannia which would negate any positive changes he’d made thus far and would make him unable to make further changes to Britannia from within. Betraying Britannia would also have meant betraying his ideals.

    Suzaku had to betray Lelouch’s friendship or Britannia (along with his plans to improve Britannia and thus save Japan). It was either Lelouch or Britannia and he chose Britannia. That has naturally made a lot of fans angry with him, but to do otherwise would be to go against his ideals. By choosing his path to work within Britannia, he locked himself in place and reduced his choices (he has to do what his superiors order him to), but as a result has placed himself in a position where he can do some good. Whether his act was despicable or not depends on how you view the morals of the situtation. From Lelouch’s path and his point of view, Suzaku did the wrong thing. From Suzaku’s path and his point of view, while it was a hard thing to do, it was the right thing to do.

    Lelouch and Suzaku both have good intentions and both have done good and bad things. Their ways of achieving the goal of improving Japan, however, are diametrically opposite. Conflict is the natural result. I think that to hate either of them for it is going a bit far, but I suppose that it’s understandable. It’s a matter of opinion – and perhaps your morals – as to which of them chose the right path.

    Interestingly enough, I think that having them choose opposite paths will – in the end – have very positive results that might not have been achieved otherwise. I certainly think that it has thus far.

    Suzaku has constantly been in Lelouch’s way. As a result, Lelouch has to change his plans, come up with new ones, and work harder to achieve his goals. Without Suzaku, Lelouch likely would have captured Cornelia much earlier and he probably would have come face to face with the emperor to challenge him much earlier. However, he would have been far less prepared at that point. His current position with half the world at his back and the knowledge of Geass that he has is far better than it was at the end of first season when he was trying to force the emperor to come to Japan so that he could confront him and presumably Geass him. I question whether he would have succeeded if has plans had gone as planned in the first season. He just didn’t know enough and didn’t have enough power to sustain his position.

    Suzaku, on the other hand, must constantly deal with Lelouch. As frustrated as he is with Lelouch, however, it is confronting Lelouch that made him shine among the Britannian soldiers and made him be noticed by those in power. It is in confronting Lelouch (and capturing him) that he was able to become one the Knights of Rounds, the most powerful and influential soldiers in all of the Britannian Empire. It is because of all this that he is currently in the position of power that he is in. He’s one of Japan’s main policy makers at this point. Without Lelouch, Suzaku would not have gotten anywhere near as far as he has.

    So, as much as you might despite one or the other, and despite how much you might think that one or the other has been foolish, I think that it’s safe to say that neither of them would have gotten to where they are today without the other and I think that where their positions would have been worse than where they are now had they not been in conflict with one another. How much the end of Code Geass will rely on their cooperation and whether their actions will end up helping each other – intentionally or otherwise – in the coming episodes, I don’t know. But they both have had a huge influence on each other up to this point. And regardless of all that, Code Geass would not be the show that it is if Lelouch and Suzaku weren’t at odds. It’s one of the key aspects of this show and it would not be anywhere near as good otherwise.

  • August 6, 2008 at 3:48 amWingZero zxt

    Which one of my statements were out there explain
    (also will ansswer rest later)

  • August 6, 2008 at 3:53 amWingZero zxt

    and sorry if i offended you it was a joke made to prove a point!

  • August 6, 2008 at 5:18 ammagixiii

    @Silentveil
    Suzaku’s plan to become knight of one to gain control of Japan has one very big flaw, he would have to help conquor other countries and then abandon them to Britania. I can just see him visiting another country after this is all over, say China.
    Suzaku:Hello I am Suzaku the knight of one, how are you?
    China man:My life sucks more than when those Euchens controled the country and our empress married off to the first prince.
    Suzaku:At least she has a good life.
    China man:Really? Being married to a man more than twice your age who you do not love while being taken to another country as a prisoner while the man she loves(does she love Xingke?) was killed for fighting the enemy and her country is enslaved is considered a good life?
    Suzaku:(humming nervously)At least there wasn’t so much blood shed since I took out Zero, crushing your UFN, where you still had you name and was considered an equal, where as now you are nothing but a lowly number. I mean gaining stuff through the wrong means is pointless.
    China man:Tell me kid, is freedom so worthless to you that you won’t do anything for it?
    Suzaku:Hey, I freed my country without resorting to terrorism.
    China man:Yeah by enslaving everyone else.
    Suzaku:……………

    As you can see handing most the world over to Britania in exchange for one country is not a very good idea, in fact it is just plain stupid.

  • August 6, 2008 at 5:32 amGP

    @Kalessin

    You bring up key points that many people have decided to not think about or just overlook. I also don’t hate either of them, they’re two sides of the same coin. The show plays off of both like you pointed out.

    In the end they both have the same basic goal to make the world better, but doing it from a different position.

    That aside, one thing that Lelouch still hasn’t realized yet is that more so from his actions than anyone else, (because lets face it he is the main character of the show), the world is crumbling and not getting better at this point. We’re heading to all out war and we’re looking at massive numbers of people dying. This is no longer the path of rebellion it started off as to me.

    But I believe he’ll come to realize his mistakes and that things are going wrong later on when (if the spoilers hold true) he’s kicked out of the BK and alone. Likewise Suzaku in this episode more so has now also realized (this is the way I see it) his mistakes and how things aren’t working out either. He just needs that one final push, which if the nuke thing goes off will be it. Likewise for Lelouch I believe that thinking Nunnaly is dead and being alone later on will be the catalyst for him.

    This is why, near the end (probably episode 23 is my guess), they’ll end up working together again. I don’t think it’ll be indirectly like you bring up though. But for them to get to that point both have to first see the bigger picture and that is that their paths/goals/ideals etc have not helped. While it’s true that both have acknowledged their mistakes in the past to certain things they haven’t to the bigger overall things they’ve caused.

    Maybe I didn’t explain it that well but I figure you understand what I’m trying to say.

  • August 6, 2008 at 6:51 amKalessin

    @GP
    Well, Suzaku’s actions haven’t really improved the world much. He’s likely helped on a small scale within Japan, but it’s not really clear how much what he’s done has helped – be it Japan or elsewhere (though unlike Lelouch, he’s really only trying to fix Japan, not the world). There are a few occasions – such as when we had a million Zeroes – that he was obviously able to influence things for the better, but how much he’s really been able to fix things is unclear. He certainly isn’t free to do as he pleases with governmental policy and the like. I think that he’s coming to an understanding of some kind that the way things have been going isn’t working out, but I’m not sure how much of that he thinks is his fault or what he thinks that he can do to improve it.

    I do, however, think that we’re coming to a point where Suzaku is really going to have to change. If he does indeed use Freya under circumstances that result in the deaths any civilians – let alone millions – that’s going to have a big effect on him. I also think that his meeting with Lelouch and his subsequent meeting with Schneizel are going to force him to reevaluate how he’s dealing with things. As to what he decides to do, I think that we’re just going to have to wait and see, however.

    As for Lelouch, I think that on the whole, he’s been going about things the right way. Yes, he’s basically plunging the world into war, but if he’s really trying to get rid of Britannia, I’m not sure what other choice he really has. He’s managed to put together a coalition of nations that really has a chance of making a difference. How well things will go is a different matter, but I think that the basic foundation is good. Many of those nations were at war with Britannia anyway, so it may actually be the case that there will be less fighting as result of the forming of the UN. But even if that’s not the case and things do get worse in the short term in the sense that there will be more battles, at least now it’ll be battles that stand a chance of leading to Britannia’s downfall as opposed to simply capturing enemy commanders and the like – which Zero was doing – or just plain losing to Britannia like the EU was doing.

    Lelouch’s big problem is that he’s been hiding so much and basing so much of what he does on lies. He hasn’t lied about who Zero is, but he hasn’t told much of anyone either. I get the impression that the BK have never really liked the fact that they don’t know who Zero is. They’ve stuck with him because he gets results and that’s probably about the only reason why.

    Also, while Lelouch does feel responsible for his mistakes (such as the circumstances that led to Euphemia’s death), he has chosen to paint them in a light that was beneficial for his cause but not necessarily true (such as painting Euphemia as a mass-murderer as opposed to explaining what really happened). He’s been able to hold things together over all because he’s extremely skilled and has gotten people to follow him as a result, but he’s made too many poor decisions that are likely to come back and bite him.

    Bringing Rolo to his side may have been a good idea initially, but it’s caused him big problems and may continue to do so. While bringing Jeremiah to his side is beneficial, it’s increased distrust of him within the BK. Slaughtering the Geass Cult may or may not have been necessary, but there’s no way that the BK as a whole would be happy to find out what happened. And even if they knew the reasons, they still might not agree with him. Giving Suzaku very negative reasons for why he did what he did in an effort to get Suzaku to save Nunnally and punish himself may very well help get Suzaku to work with him and/or save Nunnally, but if the BK hears the recording of that conversation, he’s in big trouble. There are too many things that he’s done which don’t sit well with the BK members if they know about them and too many things that they don’t know about but really wouldn’t sit well with them if they did.

    Lelouch has done some great things and managed to get to a very powerful position that really stands a chance of achieving his goals, but he’s done too many nasty things along the way and made too many poor decisions for it to hold up if anything close to the truth comes out. The whole truth would probably be better for him since the whole truth doesn’t really paint him in as bad a light (he had some very good reasons for most of what he’s done and some of it has just plain been mistakes and accidents), but it’s not the whole truth that’ll come out if any of it comes out. It’ll be partial truths which generally make him look bad. And once the partial truth of who he is, what he’s done, and why he’s done it comes out, his great position will crumble.

    Really, overall, I’d say that Lelouch has done far better than Suzaku, but Lelouch’s plans rely too much on himself and he’s made too many poor decisions for his position to work out very well at this point either. They’re both heading for ruin on some level – albeit for different reasons. That doesn’t mean that they can’t turn things around, but they sure don’t look good.

    I’d say that if Lelouch’s position with the OotBK falls apart as seems likely, he’s either going to have to get them to accept him on an honest footing, fulling admitting to who he is, what he’s done, and why – really telling the truth about it all – or he’s going to have to find a way to manipulate things such that he’s able to take out the emperor and Schniezel more directly. Suzaku, on the other hand, will obviously not be able to use the BK to help fix things and he likely won’t be able to (or willing to) deal with either the emperor or Schneizel on his own. If he really does reevaluate things – be it due to Freya or otherwise – then he might be able to help against them – he might even be able to kill Scheizel if he really decides that he wants to go that far (which would be a big change) – but I suspect that Lelouch and Suzaku are going to be forced to work together if they really want to bring peace at this point. If they worked together, then they might stand a chance of eliminating the key threats – that is the emperor and Schneizel – and fixing things without needing a fullout war. However, if that happens, it’s likely to happen not all that long before the end.

    In either case, on the whole, I’d say that Lelouch has done far better than Suzaku. However, while Lelouch has achieved great results, they’re not stable. So, neither is exactly heading for victory at the moment. I’d say that there’s a good chance that they’re going to have to work together to get things to turn out well in the end.

  • August 6, 2008 at 9:42 amGP

    @Kalessin

    You summed up what I was trying to say in your last lines.

    “In either case, on the whole, I’d say that Lelouch has done far better than Suzaku. However, while Lelouch has achieved great results, they’re not stable. So, neither is exactly heading for victory at the moment. I’d say that there’s a good chance that they’re going to have to work together to get things to turn out well in the end.”

    It’s never been a question of who’s actions have helped more, Lelouch is the main character and the plot revolves around his actions on a greater scale. Suzaku if anything has helped to change peoples minds imo. He’s shown (as you’ve said already) that even a Japanese can rise up and is more than just trash that most think of them as. It’s more psychological than physical change I’d say.

    Lelouch getting the UN together was good on the whole, but then leaving everything up to the BK alone doesn’t seem smart to me. With the BK tied up fighting in Japan the rest of the UN territories are left on their own. Which is what Britannias plan is from the looks of things. Draw the BK to a massive fight in japan, and then outflank the undefended nations elsewhere. To me the way the UN is setup now isn’t stable either.

    While it’s true he’s done things right and so far things are looking good the show in the next eps will show just how unstable and “false” they are. I expect after he’s out of the BK they’ll more or less fall apart, and the UN which was just formed will be in really bad shape. The way things look it seems like Lelouch and whoever else still follows him (Orange and Kallen it seems) will work out a new group without “zero” and all the lies.

    Suzaku has imo understood that his way doesn’t work overall either, but he’s stuck/fixed into this path since his fathers death really. Like he says “he’s tired of lying” I think that’s got more meaning to it then just lying to Nunnaly like it sounds at first. Which is why in the end he more or less tells Lelouch to keep going and end things and that he’ll help.

    To me both just need one final push or event to get them to fully see the errors in their thinking. If the bomb does it for Suzaku that’s one way, the thing is what will be the catalyst for Lelouch like I’ve said. Right now to me the success is covering up the shortcomings and unstable nature of everything Lelouch has managed to do. So when all that starts to fall apart and he’s alone later on that’s probably what will trigger it on his part. When things are going good for you, you don’t notice the problems so to say.

    You say it pretty well with that it’s all based on lies, and this plays into what Suzaku also tells him, that he has to make the lies into truths or it’s not going to work. That idea hasn’t sunk in yet for him, which is what I’m trying to get at. While both have realized the mistakes made, it’s the smaller ones and not the bigger issues yet.

    I think sunrise will work these events out so that both later on come to the same understanding and through that can finally work together again. That’s why I don’t think they will be “forced” to help each other. But only time (and mag spoilers heh) will tell how it’ll go.

  • August 6, 2008 at 9:53 amSilentveil

    WingZero zxt@

    *Yawn* I wasn’t offended, but I can see a definite problem with trying to post at 2am without sleep

    Okay, the first way out there is the starwars one. WHy do you assume I even know what in the world you are talking about? I am not a star wars fan, so the whole Sky walker thing was lost on me.

    The area nine situation@
    It’s true that it’s going to suck for all the other areas, but Suzaku’s goal was never to recover the other countries. It is to restore/rescue Japan, and he is willing to be seen as an Oni for that reason alone.

    It would suck if I was in area 9, but if I simply accept my lot in life and don’t try to change anything …than I deserve whatever life I get. Even if the change is small, I have to decide on my own to change things & not simply accept things as they are. Lelouche’s rebellion would fail if that was all there was to it, and no one tried to join the resistances. Suzaku’s position isn’t acceptances, it’s change, but, he doesn’t want to completely take Japan back from Britianna. Maybe, because he can see that after so many years, Britianna people have also become part of Japan as well. I would hate to be the one to break up a family, and segregate children due to whether or not they are considered to be Britianna or not. Hell, the Ashfords are station in Japan right, so what will happen to them after Britianna is no longer around to protect them. Half breeds, like Kallen that are left behind won’t be treated nicely and neither will anyone whom worked with the Britianna during occupation. You can see that with how Viletta[sp?] was treated when she lost her memory. You are not talking about freeing areas that had been under Britianna rules for months, but some have been that way for many years.

    You can’t get peace from bloodshed …only more bloodshed, because then the oppressors will become the oppress. IF you make them both equal then though relations will never be wonderful …everyone can at least live together.

    Simply saying, you are free isn’t that simple …it never is.

    Magixii@

    Suzaku holds out his hand to China:

    # Don’t resist, and work with us!# #Japan is free now, so why not work towards gaining enough places in the government to become free as well …I will help you#

    Goes and talks to whomever is in charge of China. Try to pressure whomever is over it for change, which, considering how many royal families is left will likely be someone of a rank lower than him. IF not outright set things up to switch officials to someone whom is chinese. THe other members of the royal family have thier own areas to worry about. Working with the Chinese people and with the Britianna government acts as a bridge to start some internal changes that might not get thier name back right away, but, will work to get them back control of thier country little by little.

    @throws out flowers and then move to the next country to try and make life better@

    Lelouche’s plan to China

    Lelouche: Join me, let’s take down the Britiannas
    China: Yeah, let’s get them.

    Lelouche: Oh yeah, now your army belongs to me now, so we all have to decide that the military will back you up now.
    China: Okay, fine whatever …let’s get rid of Britianna

    The Black Knights win the war & all the countries are having to rebuild. China starts to work on it’s interstructure and rebuilding from those riots.[minor work] Japan rebuilding, deal with interconflict, while trying to figure out whom should get what, and whom should take charge.

    Australia: Hey do you need some help?
    Destroyed country: Sure thanks a lot

    Austriala didn’t enter the alliance, so they help out varies countries but decide that they want China. Austriala’s army goes after China.

    China: Hey we need help here!
    Lelouche: Let’s go ask the United Nations
    Vote:
    25 to 5

    China loses.

    Lelouche: Sorry we can’t help.
    China’s mouth drop: YOU SONS OF #$%@!

    China falls, and thus the conquest begins anew.

    [[You really don't know what kind of power being Knight of One will give you. IF you are considered it to be second only to the royal family than that means a lot.]]

    Kalessin@

    You do have apoint there, but, I don’t know about all of that either. From what I can see, neither side, Lelouche nor Suzaku has really done much to change the world. THough I do have to admit, Lelouche has accomplish more, but then again, he has a immortal at his side and the ability to make someone do anything he wants. [[I imagine with these things on your side, you should be ahead, plus he is the main character]] Lelouche has managed to make United Nations, but, it’s built on unstable grounds to begin with, and is pretty much made up of countries that wasn’t friends of Britianna anyway. [[THe only reason they are working together is to get rid of Britianna, so I wonder what will happen when it's over.]] The only differences is that they are now under him to some degree. Any changes he made towards people as a whole …is non-existant from what I can see. China wasn’t under Britianna influences anyway, so the riot there has nothing to do with Britianna forces and more with internal struggles that had been going on for a while. The Chinese government wasn’t exactly nice to it’s people. SO, considering he has thier princess with him …I kind of wonder how things went there, because, we really don’t see if the issues there are resolved or not. We do know that thanks to that little event some parts of China willingly goes over to Britianna side.

    Meanwhile, Suzaku has made it high enough up the ladder to be able to influence the decisions of others, but still, he isn’t high enough yet to accomplish his goal either. He can save only those still in front of him, and sometimes, he has a hard time doing even that. Though it seems that his web of influence is changing how some members of the royal family does business, and that is going to fliter down to the people. With Nunnelly in charge of Japan, plans that made the Japanese expandable are no longer making it through the chain of command. So, because, Lelouche is the main character we have no idea what sort of changes have actually been made to japan. So, I can’t really judge if Suzaku’s way has been futile or not. ANyway, neither are that accomplish as of yet.

    Gp@

    I agree, apart, neither one seem to be working towards a great future. To be honest, I think if the role had been reversed this war would have been over a long time ago. Suzaku’s position alone as the son of the deceased leader of Japan would have started a mass riot a long time ago. It either would driven Japan into a war zone, and either force the Britiannas out of Japan or got everyone killed.

    Lelouche’s going through the proper channel [[striving to become the Prince again]] would have either gave him the power necassary to make the changes he wanted, or he would have been assassinated.

    Both had potential.

  • August 6, 2008 at 10:11 amGP

    Well, we could debate who helped more and who hasn’t till we’re blue in the face. But we can (in my mind) at least agree that both of their plans work under the right conditions, but that both have made a good deal of mistakes which in the end undermine any success they’ve gained.

    I have the feeling, as i’ve said repeatedly already, that all these gains Lelouch has gotten will start to be lost. The only ones who will still be around to help will probably be Orange (he knows the truth, and isn’t being fed lies anymore), and to a lesser extent kallen. Not to change subjects but I still don’t hold Kallen’s character or overall role in the story as a high one. But she more or less knows the truth also, and knows him better then the rest on his side who only know “zero”.

    Suzaku, Nunnaly and more towards the end CC will still have a bigger part to play through their actions imo.

    But you can’t overlook that the show has repeatedly driven home the idea/fact that Geass will leave you alone and make you lose everything. He’s lost people close and is starting to be alone, in a few more episodes that will be even more the case. That then will change the way he looks at the situation yet again.

  • August 6, 2008 at 4:53 pmWingZero zxt

    Im here Here we go

    @silent Veil So in other words suzakus plan involves stripping a nation of its pride freedom and culture in return for the greater good!???!?!? PFT riiiiight

    Sorry for assuming you knew anything abouyt Starwars (and shame on you for knowing nothing :P) The point i was making was that Suzaku working hard had almost nothing to do with his success he was pretty much born physically superior to everyone else! Another 11 could work hard all his life and never gain anything if he has a weak body or a learning disability! in Brittania atleast in UFN if you have a learning Disability (Like Tamaki lOL jokes) you can still be someone (the guy who gets taken out first in any skirmish)
    Also had you ever considered what might happen if suzaku dies in a war related accident (LOL) after becoming knight of one Japan is screwed again!!! That world needs to be destroyed and rebuilt !!! Its not ok currently (although ours has its own porblems) And also the whole voting thing ofcourse leaving things to diplomacy as opposed to malevolent dictatorships run by immortals is wrong.. no wait that DOESNT MAKE SENSE!!!!!
    Role reversal would have definately had potential but that would have needed to things
    1. For the emperor not to be traitorus scum. or for lelocuh to have swallowed his pride (didnt happen
    2. For suzakus father to have died by other means (meaning suzaku wouldnt have quite such a messed up mentality now and would probablyt have joined toudou (his former teacher) in trying to bring bck Japan to independance because as we know suzaku wasnt a retard before it was only after he killed his father that made him stupid and a tad unreasonable.

    Also regarding suzaku not being a traitor just because he killed his father at age 10??? Thw point i was making wasnt that he was young! It was that he did it!!!

    Ohyeh i havent answered our numbers yets i dont think

    1. Will be ignored frm this point on
    2.a/b) Suzaku is ot immune to making a legitimate decision at age 10 its just it wasnt his decision to make!!! Sort of like how murdering Gordon Brown isnt a legitimate decision for me to make even though im a British Citizen and an Adult. No matter how old you are (so far as i know) assasinating the leader of the country you reside in is an act of Treason! and as hes going along with it hes definately a traitor! its not like hes saying , ” Im SORR i was only Ten i tripped running with a letter opener after a heated argument please forgive me”!
    b) Since suzakus father was Prime Minister that suggests a certain lack of monarchy or inheriting the throne! Therefore it wouldnt of mattered eve if suzaku was the Prime Ministers son (oh wait he was) there was no guarantee he would have ever made it to office!
    c) No and besides the ill gotten privileges that being a Knight of he Rounds affords him Suzaku has no right to ‘his’ country hes not even a Japanese or UFN national anymore!!!

    3. Euphys death was indeed trajic im not comparing her to a Dog lol (though cos shes animated im not entirely sure what my feelings are lets just say were it real i would be horrified) But what i am saying is that The situation meant she would probably have been shot regardless especially if she appeared anywhere in the world other than area 11! Meaning lelouch had no choice and he took responsibility by killing her himself and ending (sort of ) the situation! Since you can say that the geassing was accidental and also the cause of her death her death was accidental (its like shooting someone accidentally (if your american) then having them in a vegitative state with no method of recovery. Eventually someones gonna call a time of death no matter how much that person is loved by those around her!

    4. I meant Odd enemy force in obvious sarcastic jest! Suzaku isnt new-Kira from Gundam Seed anymore hes not above vaporiing entire enemy lines just to achieve his objective. And Please tell me you are joking about you deeming WMDs neccessary or saying this purely because this is anime we are talking about!!! Its this kind of open hyopcrisy that annoys me,
    1 Breath suzakus trying to save Japan using less bloody means
    /Next breath suzaku isnt and shouldnt be above using WMDs? OMGOODNESS what a thing to say

    5.A answered above
    b)Yes lelouch is a traitor (DUH) but NO-ONE cares WHY? because he happened to betray an evil scum! It would be like someone betraying Hitler (heralded as a hero) (you dont count Carrares HOW DARE YOU :P)
    c.) Hardly if lelouch really didnt care aout suzaku as much he would have geaseed him and tossed him aside like a used paper bag like guilford ,darlton and so many others (<—i could have sed worse but didnt want to be disgusting) or he would have let kallen kill him!

    Its ultimately a shame that Lelouch is about to start losing again and suzaku is gonna continue to go entirely unpunished for his crimes (yet when lelouch does somthing wrong or stupid he gets in all kinds of trouble)

    Great point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    For me it boils down to who would do the world the mot good if they win! And that is obviously lelouch: Because (Whoever invented the term and construct of a LIST was a GENIUS)

    1. The wotld regains freedom diplomacy and status
    2. Britannians wont get racially oppressed by LAW! (at the very least though you cant stop people from being bitter as civillians
    3. Conquest and war becomes pointless if all nations are part of the UFN becaue all theyd need to do is gain political suuport as opposed to military
    4. The world atleast creates the image (even if it becomes a little shallow in the long run) of being unified whilst at the same time allwonig people thier dfferences!

    There are obvious problems with this situation like people seceeding and trying to restart conflict due to political disagreements (after which the UFN crushing them and focrcing them to rejoin under the banner of one of its memeber states) But that that is by no means a reason to think that suzakus plan is a viable alternative. It quite obviously isnt unless he becomes emperor! (lets be honest! if he becomes knight of one and starts letting Japanese people roam the streets freely hed soon be removed one way or another!)

    I wonder if that was enough to cinvince you that suzakus plan is at best short sighted and selfish and therefore not worth the mental effort?

  • August 6, 2008 at 4:55 pmWingZero zxt

    Damn when it refers to great point and then puts everything in ittallics i was refering to this poit by kallesin

    I do, however, think that we’re coming to a point where Suzaku is really going to have to change. If he does indeed use Freya under circumstances that result in the deaths any civilians – let alone millions – that’s going to have a big effect on him. I also think that his meeting with Lelouch and his subsequent meeting with Schneizel are going to force him to reevaluate how he’s dealing with things. As to what he decides to do, I think that we’re just going to have to wait and see, however.

    As for Lelouch, I think that on the whole, he’s been going about things the right way. Yes, he’s basically plunging the world into war, but if he’s really trying to get rid of Britannia, I’m not sure what other choice he really has. He’s managed to put together a coalition of nations that really has a chance of making a difference. How well things will go is a different matter, but I think that the basic foundation is good. Many of those nations were at war with Britannia anyway, so it may actually be the case that there will be less fighting as result of the forming of the UN. But even if that’s not the case and things do get worse in the short term in the sense that there will be more battles, at least now it’ll be battles that stand a chance of leading to Britannia’s downfall as opposed to simply capturing enemy commanders and the like – which Zero was doing – or just plain losing to Britannia like the EU was doing.

  • August 6, 2008 at 7:26 pmKenshinyoh

    this is just a prediction but i think Anya lost memories are controlled by Charles(emperor) and she’s actually Lelouchs real sister not Nunnally. Which will be revealed after Lelouch or one of the Black Knights kills Anya… LOL this is just my speculation and hopefully doesn’t come true.

  • August 6, 2008 at 8:06 pmMax

    I personally believed that Euphemia’s ghost HAS forgiven Lelouch for geassing her when she was alive. She feels if the accident didn’t occur, she would be attending Ashford Academy with Suzarku and find time to be with Lelouch. Neither Lelouch nor his sister would have to be in hiding anymore. If fact, Euphemia would have seen to it that the Ashford’s Nobility was restored. From there Milly would have dumped Lloyd a lot sooner and would have gone to Lelouch with her feelings directly. Thus making it easier for Lelouch to avoid Shirley altogether. Any thoughts about the possible outcome?

  • August 6, 2008 at 8:18 pmmalcriado

    @Kalessin
    First, yes i was referring to you, sorry I wasn’t sure if you were a he or she. You never disclosure your gender xD
    Really nice discussion going here. In some things I agree with WingZero and in others with Silentveil. But changing the topic a little bit I would like to introduce you guys to a new topic, what do you think will happen if Brittania or the UN wins. Honestly,I declare myself a pro Brittania because has united almost all the world under one flag. If you think about it all numbers can become honorable Brittania citizens if they choose to. It is sad the some people will lost part of they culture but eventually this will solve many problems and wars wont exist anymore. 1 world united with no borders isnt that th Utopia we are waiting for?

  • August 6, 2008 at 11:30 pmgeorge from the empire of the rising sun

    @malcriado: dude or (are you male or female), in Code Geass, it would happen but in REALITY, it sucks because there is no such thing as utopia in the REAL world. Not everything is perfect and nobody is perfect because humans are capable in making mistakes and those mistakes can create conflicts and problems. Though in the real world, we have the United Nations but still there are wars such as in the ongoing conflict in the Middle East (it would over if Bush is out, though McCain might continue it if he wins), the ongoing conflict in Israel and of course, terrorism.

    if Britannia wins, there will be no equality, no rights for the minorities, there will discrimination and abuse and there will be those who still oppose Britannia and even though they came honarable Britannians, still you can’t distinguish who are the true Britannians or not true Britannians. The world will be an imperialistic world which is why God destroy the Tower of Babel which cause many people to separate and speak in different languages.

    if the UFN wins, probably it will be just the outcome in the end of Gundam 00 Season 1 or the world will be like OUR world even though there will be still conflicts since this is not a perfect world.

    @WingZero zxt: I gave you a high 5 because i find your anti-Suzaku posts funny and really flamed the pro-Suzaku posts…

    @Silentveil: stop making Suzaku a hero, Kalessin is right. Neither Suzaku or Lelouch are doing the right thing and this is why this show is portraying that there is no specific “hero” here.

    @GP: Definition of an anime EMO character:
    ♥The character that whines a lot and mopes around almost as if they have a dark cloud over their head (no, this is not Suzaku)

    ♥The character that usually attracts the angry, insane chick, (you know the ones that need PMS pills) evil, male antagonist, or the cheerful, Mary Sue. (opposites do attract)

    ♥The character that is full of emotions (usually sad, then angry, then sad) that get’s upset over nothing! Some aren’t angry and just shy, but even they can be jerks. (Most are just plan jerks who have something lodged up their bum). (THIS IS SUZAKU)

    ♥The kid is a loner who is always by himself. Has friends but is too emo for them. (REALLY NOT SUZAKU ‘CAUSE HE’S NO SHINJI IKARI)

    ♥Usually the antagonist who wants some sort of revenge for an emo reason. (THIS MIGHT BE LELOUCH THOUGH I DIDN’T SEE HIM IN THE LIST)

    Also I find new info here regarding the upcoming episodes (http://koshimizu.livejournal.com/5369.html#cutid1)
    and also I find a pic of mommy Marianne, combing daddy Charles’s hair…how sweet…and lil’ Lelouch and lil’ Nunnally sneaking in mommy and daddy’s room…what a nice family until Marianne died….http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/883/mariannetn5.jpg

  • August 7, 2008 at 2:59 amThe Hand of Guren

    The replies are so very long, but in case no one has remarked on this I just want to say that Schneizel cannot use the recording of Leulou’s confession to Suzaku without some additional proof. Leleou among other things said he Geassed Euphie to start the rebellion and admitted that he is Zero and that he is a great liar who tricked people into supporting him. This recording is not in itself sufficient proof to the world that he is Zero and that he has committed evil deeds. What Schneizel needs is proof that this “Lelou” is legitimate; otherwise, the recording will come off as some “obvious” and bizarre Imperial propoganda.

    Does Schneizel intend to blackmail Lelou since he and not Charles currently happens to possess Nunnally? That may be one step, but his fall back plan against the Black Knights has to be his threat to unmask Zero. He has got sufficient weapons of mass destruction, I’m sure, but he has lost the Knights of Rounds now that Charles has returned. I wonder why he thinks he can stand up against both Charles and Lelouch.

  • August 7, 2008 at 4:29 amUngas

    will kaguya leave zero if she knew who zero is? (there is a possibility that lelouch and nunnaly met kaguya while they are at kururugi shrine, after all kaguya is suzaku’s cousin)

  • August 7, 2008 at 5:01 amKalessin

    @malcriado
    While a unified world would certainly be better than an ununified one in the general sense, the reality of the matter is that as long as people don’t learn to be better, nicer, more forgiving people like so many religions seem to think that we should, there’s always going to be conflict. Even if the entire planet were put under one, benevolent government, it would likely be only a matter of time until someone decided to try to take over because of a lust for a power, a grudge, or whatever reason they felt was relevant. And even if they didn’t try and take over the world, they could definitely try to take control of a region of it. There have been far-reaching empires in the past and all of them fall eventually. Until everyone on the planet become good enough people to just plain get along and manage to raise only children that are good enough people to just plain get along, there is going to be conflict.

    No matter if the UN wins or if Britannia wins – or if both lose – there will be conflict again in the world of Code Geass. If we don’t see it, it’s because the story we get stops before then.

    As governments go, Britannia is a monarchy. It’s the type of government that works wonderfully if you have good rulers – both in the sense of being good men who seek the good of the people and in the sense of being good at ruling. With all the power resting in the hands of one man, he can do lots of good and doesn’t have to worry about such nastiness and inefficiency as ruling by committee. The problem, of course, is that most men are not good rulers. Either they lack the traits of being good men – such as of seeking the good of the people rather than their own – or they aren’t good at ruling. Regardless of how you pick your rulers, odds are that you’ll end up with a bad apple at some point and a bad apple can do a lot of damage when he has all the power.

    Federations have the benefit of being democracies of some kind generally. By having the rulers be voted in and not being in place for life and the like, you can generally avoid having bad apples in power for long periods of time. Also, the checks and balances that normally exist in such governments limit the ruler’s power and thus limit the damage that a bad one can do. The problem, of course, is that this means that a good ruler can’t do as much good. He’s limited in his power and is forced to deal with ruling by committee on some level (what are congresses and the like but big committees of people arguing over law?). So, federations don’t function as smoothly, but they avoid some of the nastier problems of monarchies. I think that most people these days would agree that democracies are better than monarchies and that they’d rather have the world divided among democracies (and possibly other forms of government) than have the whole world united under a single monarchy.

    That being the case, eliminating Britannia is likely a very good thing – even if the world is left divided. It would, of course, be better if the UN takes over the whole thing and thus there’s some form of world government, but I don’t think that uniting the world as a whole is worth having it put under the boot of a country such as Britannia. It likely wouldn’t stay unified that way forever anyway.

  • August 7, 2008 at 5:15 amKalessin

    @The Hand of Guren
    Well, you do bring up a good point that a taped confession by Lelouch doesn’t mean much – let alone one of the nature that Schneizel has. Even if Lelouch can be identified as the one claiming to be Zero and Suzaku backs that up, it doesn’t necessarily prove anything. However, it’s not like he’s trying to prove anything in a court of law. He wants to stop Zero and the OotBK. Scheizel knowing who Zero is allows him to arrest him – which would allow him to neutralize Zero. And as for the OotBK, a number of the core members are becoming increasingly dissatisfied and wary of Zero. Given a push such as learning the contents of that taped confession might be enough to push them to turn against him.

    Really, the main reason that the OotBK tolerate Zero and his mask is because he brings results. He generally succeeds where no one else would. If Japan were to be retaken, then they wouldn’t need him anymore. So, if they were to hear the taped conversation after Japan has been taken back, there’s a good chance that they’d turn on him. And if Schneizel can come up with something that they want badly enough, he might be able to get them to give him Zero in exchange for it.

    In addition, Lelouch might very well choose to admit that the tape is real. We have no way of knowing whether he’d deny it or not at this point. Sometimes he lies in order to protect himself, his friends, or his cause, but other times he tells the truth outright (though rarely to the OotBK). Add in the fact that he’s feeling more and more guilt and responsibility for the negative things that he’s done and the negative things that have happened indirectly because of what he’s done and he might decide that he should admit to the tape being real and correct.

    The very suggestion that Zero is a prince of Britannia – be it a cast aside prince or not – would not sit well with the OotBK. And if he were to deny it and any additional evidence came up, he’d be in big trouble.

    Really, we can’t say how much that tape will do on its own, but it threatens to be a big problem and there’s every possibility that it won’t be on its own in condemning Zero. In addition to that, there’s the fact that the writer’s of the show had it even be made. It’s going to play a part – likely a big one – or it would never have been made. They could just as easily had Schneizel’s men listen in on the conversation without taping it and get all the same events and results that occurred in this last episode. That tape is going to have a definite effect on the story at some point. And knowing Code Geass, given that the place that it would do the most damage would be with the OotBK, that’s where it’s likely to be heard and have its effect. In fact, it’s one of the only places that it would do much damage. Even if everyone outside the OotBK knew who Zero was, it wouldn’t matter much. The only ones that could do anything to him (the Emperor, Schneizel, etc.) already know. As such, it’s the OotBK that would be affected by it. It looks like Lelouch is going to be having some definite issues with the OotBK sometime soon.

  • August 7, 2008 at 1:27 pmKalessin

    @Silentveil
    Oh, and I have to say that I’m very surprised at you Silentveil. I thought that just about everyone on the planet (except for those in communist countries or some small village in a third world country or the like) had seen at least the original trilogy of Star Wars. And if you’re American (I don’t recall whether you’ve mentioned your nationality or not), that seems even more unthinkable. Bizarre. You, my friend, are a rare breed indeed.

  • August 7, 2008 at 7:02 pmWingZero zxt

    ^Innit!!!! and i was begining to think I was the freak!

    Starwars is base-line standard for all good vs evil/super powered/chosen one type programs and series . I dont know if its just me but i can draw some parallel between starwars and almost every other kind of shounen (i think thats what you call it) type anime series!

  • August 7, 2008 at 7:17 pmgeorge from the empire of the rising sun

    @Kalessin: btw, can you think what kind of ending will Code Geass have? And oh yeah, Silentveil is one of the endangered species who needs to be rickrolled… click this link, please :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z33MG8GKySY

    And also in http://koshimizu.livejournal.com/5369.html#cutid1 , the upcoming titles show up and i don’t know if they contrast the Korean spoilers….

  • August 7, 2008 at 10:33 pmmalcriado

    @ George
    The first part of the video is awesome :D C.Cx Lulu gogogogo!

  • August 8, 2008 at 2:19 amKalessin

    @george frm the empire of the rising sun
    That was one freaky video. I cringe just thinking about how much time it took to make it. But, yes, I agree with malcriado that the image at the beginning was a good one.

    As for the ending of Code Geass, that’s really hard to say at this point. Personally, I’d like to see Lelouch ending up with either C.C. or Kallen (I can never decide which) having defeated his father and made it so that Britannia was either seriously altered for the better or destroyed. I’m not sure that I care whether Schneizel gets defeated or not. He can rule Britannia for all I care as long as he doesn’t try and take on the rest of the world anymore and those that want to be free from Britannia are free. I also don’t particularly care if Lelouch is ruling anything or not as long as his basic objectives have been achieved. He would preferably have made up with Suzaku and any other of his friends or associates that he’s either currently at odds with or will become at odds with between now and the end. And of course he should have gotten Nunnally back. But of course, what I’d like to see and what ends up happening are not necessarily related in the least.

    The summaries that we have through episode 22 appear to fully support the Korean spoilers. Most – if not all – of the events described in the Korean spoilers will almost certainly have taken place by the end of episode 20 (if not by the end of episode 19). They paint a pretty grim picture for the next few episodes and the overall situation is posed to change drastically – and it doesn’t look like it’s changing towards an easy or obvious win for anyone – especially not Lelouch. The summaries of the episodes beyond 20 also hint at some fairly crazy stuff that the Korean spoilers don’t touch.

    Given Code Geass’ history of changing everything more or less out of nowhere, I really don’t think that we can accurately predict the ending at this point. Could you have predicted any of the events of the last couple episodes of the first season – let alone the ending – after having only seen 17 episodes? I rather doubt it. At best, you probably would have predicted that there would be a major battle at the end of the season.

    As of episode 17 or R1, the OotBK had just freed Toudo and learned that Suzaku was the pilot of the Lancelot. They weren’t really in a position to take Britannia head on and didn’t really look like they were going to any time soon. And yet, by the end of the first season, they had done just that. Granted, they lost, but they were able to take Britannia head on and had had at least a chance of winning. A lot can change in even just one episode of Code Geass – let alone 8.

    I expect that some elements of the ending will be happy, but given how often things go wrong in Code Geass, there’s every probability that there will be some unhappy stuff happening at the end as well. I don’t expect it to be all roses even if Suzaku joins up with Lelouch and they take out both the emperor and Schneizel and either take control of Britannia or make it crumble. It’s likely that a number of major characters will survive, but probably not all of them. My guess is that Lelouch will either die, become a major ruler of some kind (probably of Britannia if that’s the case), or he’ll disappear (possibly with others like Nunnally and whatever girl he ends up with – if any), leaving the public stage entirely. I really have no clue what’ll happen to Suzaku. I suppose that it would be fairly ironic if he ended up becoming the prime minister of Japan and Lelouch became the emperor of Britannia, but I don’t find that very likely (at least the Suzaku part – who knows with Lelouch).

    Really, things are going to change big time in the next few episodes and will almost certainly change quite a bit more before the end, so I don’t think that I have much chance of accurately predicting much about the ending at this point.

  • August 8, 2008 at 11:54 amJordiBlau

    I too think a lot will change in the coming episodes.

    But I do think that the writers do a pretty good job of destracting us from the real issue in this series and that’s ragnarok.

    I actually believe that the emperor knew that lelouch was zero from the very beginning. We are given a hint of this from the very beginning. In the first episode when lelouch is given his geass, the emperor questions himself if the myth is beginning again. He also refers to geass as the ragnarok connection in this episode.. Which makes me believe that when lelouch accepted his geass, he unknowingly became the catalyst for Ragnarok..

    To my guess, this will be explained in a later episode. Why else would the emperor let go off lelouch after he has been captured and why doesn’t the emperor reveal the identity of lelouch even though he knows that could be the one thing necessary for Britannia’s victory.

    I think he needs lelouch to initiate Ragnarok which is more then just a plan to kill the gods. It’s more likely a device which will help rid the world of all it’s lies by destroying almost every human on the planet. And after which the world can start off with a fresh start.

    Besides in the first episode we have been show c.c. following lelouch as a kid. Later when she’s in the pod in that truck, she tells us she finally found him.. meaning Lelouch. Together with the fact that c.c. was together with Marianne in the past makes we wonder if it wasn’t all planned for Lelouch to be exciled, in order for him to join the opposing side and make Ragnarok possible.

    I personnally think that lelouch was exciled for a reason. Either to prevent Ragnarok from starting, by hiding him from the emperor or to start Ragnarok by putting him up against Brittania. Either way this will probably be explained when Anya comes in the picture again, and when we are shown the real reasons behind Marianne’s death. She might even be involved in this and maybe not in good way as many think..

  • August 8, 2008 at 11:31 pmkayne001

    Guys you don’t understand,
    You will not persuade Zero on anything about Suzaku. (cough sjhfflaksnkfbhoy cough)

    Let’s end it there.

    BTW I hope in the next episode

    Kallens boobs explode
    Nunally opens her eyes to reveal Geass and Zero kills her
    Shirley returns from a vacation revealing that that was her twin sister that died
    The Emperor takes a break for some tea
    and finally
    Celestial Being makes their debut.

  • August 9, 2008 at 1:59 amRemmell

    I’ve noticed that so far this season has been rather short on controversy. I remember last season had some “table lovin’” and Villetta’s full frontal shot.
    There have been plenty of breast tease shots, but not like they had first season. It makes me wonder. Are they trying to avoid controversy this season or are they saving it for something later.
    I still remember my reaction to the table scene. I watched it two or three times. Not out of some perverse reasoning. I just wasn’t sure I could believe what I saw. If that really happened.

    Sunrise hasn’t been shy from controversy. I remember the big deal that was made back in Gundam SEED when there was even the “implied sex”. All that really showed was Kira getting out bed and putting his pants on.

    I wonder if this season will have anything edgy or did they spend all those points with season one?

  • August 9, 2008 at 2:16 amKalessin

    @Remmell
    I recall a discussion earlier in the season that the changed time slot (I gather that it’s earlier in the evening now and thus in more of a “family-oriented” slot than it was in the first season) would result in less nudity and the like. I recall someone pointing out the nude shot of C.C. in the first episode which was reversed like photo negative as potential proof.

    Personally, I’m not looking for “edgy” scenes and the table scene from season 1 is one that I really wish they hadn’t done. It really didn’t add much. We knew Nina was nuts without that. Really, if you’re even thinking of adding an edgy scene, I think that it has to add real content to the series or it’s not worth it. If you’re looking for fanservice or whatnot, you can have it without going that far (and they’ve had plenty of fanservice this season).

  • August 9, 2008 at 5:59 amRemmell

    I know. I’m just interested in seeing if after the bombing, with Nunnally missing, to see if Kallen will this time actually ‘comfort’ him. This time of her own choosing. He he.

    I was interested that after this episode people are swarming to the possibility of a GinoxKallen pairing. I really don’t see it. Not only does it seem like too late in the series to be developing something new for such a major character as Kallen. Gino and Kallen have had ONE conversation and it was mostly about Suzaku. I believe that the only reason he even went down to talk to Kallen was out of his concern for Suzaku. My theory is that when he found that school album he misunderstood the meaning behind those missing images. He seems to think they might be pictures of Kallen and Suzaku being close, and it wouldn’t look good for a Knight of the Round to be seen being too friendly with a known terrorist. I believe that the pictures are actually of Lelouch and Nunnally.
    When Kallen and Suzaku were in the student counsel they hardly did anything together.
    Gino seems to think that Kallen could be the key to Suzaku being happy. It’s just a misunderstanding.

    Another reason I’m not too found of that idea of this coupling. I was honestly surprised that Kallen’s captivity wasn’t spent with Nunnally and Suzaku trying to tempt her to join their side. Either through friendly means or blackmail involving her mother. Too my shock her time in prison has shown her getting to better understand Lelouch, and it was Kallen who brought up the topic. Even for Kallen, who knew Lelouch to be more cold and strategic, to find out as children he would pretend to be Santa for his sister’s sake. That’s just adorable. I would hate to see so much interesting development in her understanding of Lelouch go nowhere, and for the series to do some lame, last minute twist of pairing up Kallen with someone on the opposite side. I noticed in the extended preview for episode 18 at the very end we hear Lelouch call out that he will save Nunnally and Kallen. I was surprised to see that while Lelouch was in a rage over the betrayal he thought of Kallen. I would of expected him to be just thinking of Nunnally. With C.C. kind of lost and Nunnally missing, Kallen is the only person he can honestly confide in. I’m sure he will still have Jeremiah, and maybe Sayako, but I feel Kallen is the only one who could have the key to his redemption as things are right now.
    I just feel that the rest of the season should be spent answering questions rather then creating new pairings.

  • August 9, 2008 at 7:14 amKalessin

    @Remmell
    There really hasn’t been much romantic development in Code Geass overall. Suzaku and Euphemia had something going, but she died. Viletta and Ougi are obviously interested in each other (though they’re obviously still trying to figure out what to do about their relationship given that they’re on opposing sides). Chiba is showing some interest in Toudoh, but that hasn’t gone anywhere yet. Rivalz’s been interested in Milly, but he’s never had any luck. I suppose that you could list Lloyd and Milly, but that didn’t really go anywhere. It also looks like Cecile might be interested in Guilford. Other than that, I think that pretty much all of the romantic development centers on Lelouch. And in spite of that semi-lengthy list of characters, the only two pairings in that list of much consequence or screen time are Viletta X Ougi and Suzaku X Euphemia and Euphemia is dead. There really isn’t a whole lot going on there.

    As for Lelouch, Shirley was definitely interested in him and he had feelings for her as a close friend at minimum, but she died. C.C. and he have gotten fairly close (albeit not exactly romantically close for the most part) and they’ve both shown at least some interest in the other, but she’s lost her memory at this point. If she gets it back, something could happen, but who knows. Kallen is the other major possibility at this point. She’s been captured and may have some trouble with Lelouch soon, but it looks like she’s going to be going along with him and with C.C. effectively gone, she’s really the closest one too him, so there’s every possibility that Kallen and Lelouch will pair up. There have been other girls (such as Kaguya, Milly, and most of Ashford) which have shown some interest in Lelouch, but he’s shown no interest in them. So, the most likely love interests for Lelouch are either C.C. or Kallen depending on how things go.

    Gino has shown some interest in Kallen, but it’s pretty much always been in reference to fighting her in the Guren. I think that he might have said something in episode 9 about her being his kind of girl, but it’s not like they’ve been forming a relationship. Certainly, I agree with you that the his showing her the album seemed to be more centered on learning about Suzaku rather than Kallen. I could have seen a Gino X Kallen pairing had they developed it earlier, but there hasn’t really been any sign of it.

    Really, if there’s going to bu much major romantic development, it’ll be with Lelouch. We’ll also see some Viletta X Ougi I expect – primarily because it stands to be vehicle for plot development – but overall, romantic relationships aren’t going to have much to do with the plot. There are a few smaller pairings such as Chiba and Toudoh which might happen, but that’s totally sideline stuff.

    If you look at how much of the story time relationship development has taken up thus far, it’s been a fairly small percentage, and if that percentage holds at all, there won’t be time for much more in the way of relationship stuff to happen. So, I don’t expect to see much in the way of new pairings – if any. It just isn’t a big enough part of Code Geass.

  • August 9, 2008 at 7:20 amKalessin

    On a total side note, I just watched episode 16 of R1 in English (since that’s the latest dub episode) and I noticed that right before C.C. killed Mao, she told him to wait in the World of C. The Shinsen Subs had her tell him to wait for her in the next life and the GG subs had her tell him to wait for her in the world of death. I’m guessing that the official translator was just taking some liberties given their knowledge of R2, but I don’t know Japanese, so I can’t say for sure. In either case, I found it rather interesting that she mentioned the World of C in the dub.

  • August 9, 2008 at 7:30 amKalessin

    @Remmell
    I was a bit surprised to find out how Kallen gets free.

    Show Spoiler ▼

  • August 9, 2008 at 9:51 amSilentveil

    1. did anyone ever think …that maybe …I wasn’t around when that movie was popular, and compared to the new ones ..now, the old one looks kind of gross?
    2. THose movies are what three hours long, my attention span can’t take that.
    3. Everything is sort of based off that movie, so of course, it’s not interesting to me because …it’s common.

    [[Not liking Star Wars, or really bothering to watch it doesn't make me a rare creature ...there is plenty of people like that. Just not normally on the internet.]]

    WingZero zxt@

    >_< Well, they say pride comes before the fall, but as for the lost of culture. Only, the Japanese have the power to lose that or take that away. The Britianna way is harsh, but I don’t see them stopping them from expressioning themselves in the sames ways. Just that they can no longer do it on the same large scales as before.

    In other words, they aren’t forcing the people to lose thier identities as Japanese, but, the Britianna themselves are simply not acknowledging it.
    1. Ignored
    2. Points back to your pervious answer, wow, Suzaku was smart for a 10 year old & the reason as well as age does matter. You know, he didn’t plan it out, and his father’s death was more in the heat of the moment. A traitorous act, is planned to be traitorous ..it is done with that intent.

    a) You know, that is the thing that has confused me the most. IF it’s not a monarchy, why did Suzaku’s father death matter so much?
    b) Once more, I am kind of wondering about that as well. Don’t know much about Prime Ministers, but shouldn’t there had been other Prime Minsiter son’s or daughter’s as well. Why then does that little girl beside Lelouche seem almost like Japan’s Princess?
    c)That is why, I back up Suzaku.
    There will be no merits for him even if he is successful, because, by the end of it …he can no longer call Japan “his” country. Though, he will still do everything in his power to make the place peaceful and to put thier interest first. It’s the road less travel that he is going through, and that to me makes him a very interesting character.
    3. Lelouche/Suzaku are in the same boat then. Someone needs to shoot them, because, they both are responsible for situations of mass murder & Lelouche is responsible for Eurphy’s. Yet, they are both still alive. Nope, that isn’t a good excuse for shooting her still. The kettle calling the pot black comes to mind.
    4. I hate to say it, but, yes, they are necassary. As evil as they are, they are probably the only things standing between the world today and another world war. No one wants to start a nuke war, because no one will win.
    a.) Major Contradiction, but there is no way around it. The battle in Japan is suppose to be a major one, so every weapon avaliable will be used. Suzaku having Freya is one of them, but I will say it again, let’s wait to see if and how that weapon will be used. He hasn’t blown up anything yet. Though, you know a bigger contridadiction is how, Lelouche wants to build a peaceful world for Nunnelly, and when she tries to do it on her own …brings a freaky war to her doorsteps. [[If Lelouche kills his sister, what excuse will you give him?]]
    5.
    b. Really, intersting view, because you know what, that meant that Lelouche is a traitor to Shirley, Rival, and can’t think of the school former President’s name, not just to the Emporeor. It makes him a traitor to everyone whom knew him and liked him at that school or whom treated him as an equal as a Britianna. A traitorous act, doesn’t stop at just the head, but goes all the way to the bottom, because, it’s not only the Emporeror’s life that will be changed by the events, but the people under him.
    [[Trust me, if you are German than a betrayer of Hitler is indeed an traitorous act. It has take a long time for people to even consider anything but bad of the word Germen]]

    c. You know that’s funny, because, Lelouche is probably the only one who does care about Suzaku. Everyone else, has no problems with putting him into that role of sacrifical lamb. Though in reverse, Lelouche even if he is a traitor, everyone does everything in thier power to help him/protect him. This even includes his enemies, because of whom his mother was or thier own relation to him.

    D. Unpunished? Self-hatred isn’t punishment? Isolation isn’t punishement? Having a love one killed right in front of you isn’t punishment? Having to knowingly fight your best friend isn’t punishment? Working for the enemy isn’t punishment? Geesh, I wonder what you consider to be punishment then?

    [[I have to agree with you there, but, you know what ...I have long sense went with the lesser evil between the two. (Darn,it must be nice to be on the popular side where everyone has already made up good reason for why his side is right. I am too lazy to make up my own, so I will skip this part))]]

    George@

    Wow, you think I am making him a hero? Well, I thought I was simply replying to statements made, and telling why I prefer Suzaku over Lelouche in terms of these arguments. Interesting enough, you see my reasoning makes him an hero instead.
    Thought I should put this up for Lelouche:
    1. nope for Lelouche[he doesn't whine, he strategies to kick butt]
    2. Umm…that would be a check for Lelouche, though, his insane chick is a guy.
    3. That is a check for Lelouche, I can give examples, but I much rather not make my post any longer than necassary.
    4. Lelouche [Very]
    5. Lelouche[Hell yeah]
    1/5, he is emo!

    This is a guess, or maybe a possible spoiler below
    Show Spoiler ▼

  • August 9, 2008 at 10:41 amWingZero zxt

    He wont kill his sister your support for suzaku is ultimately based on the fact the lancelot is cool (ish) and being a traitor means performing traitorous acts and betraying someone its not like he aplogised and tried to fix it! he did the opposite!!! and also regarding the Starwars thing Even if you werent around when they were popular They were MADE in REVERSE ORDER (Ooh i see George Lucas your not a muppet :P ) and your inability to appreciate them makes me think you are quite young (it pains me to think i was arguing Code Geass with a 10 year old! ohwell internet makes all men equal! )

    It also seems to me that your failiure to understand certain things in this series in part has contributed to your view point so rather than hash this out further i will wait til next ep considering its out tommorow

    Couldnt help it!!! Doing it now

    2. Meh it dont matter wether he planned it for 3 days like lelocuh or 3 seconds he did it and that makes it traitorous!
    2a) Your failiure to understand this point seems to contribute to your stance!!! Basically loing a leader (a functional one) in the middle of a crisis is like cutting the head of a chicken and lettimg it run itself to death (around the yard) No control no authority, no consolidation!!! A body without a head wont function (properly if your a chicken!) So killing PM Genbu just before an potential (inevitable) invasion meant chaos and no real leadership! Sorta like how schniziel had planned at one point to win most of China bck through negotiation just cos the Eunichs had all bin removed and there was no official government!
    b)Dont understand your question fully: Kaguya is a Japanese noble And suzakus cousin (a little rich girl with a political opinion)

    c) your answer to this point makes your entire reasoning pointless. (their all interesting characters you could even say Code Geass would be less interesting without suzaku but if he wins this series will be the worst train wreck since the film: THE DAY AFTER TOMMROW and the worst possible ending since Dragonaut! (WE kept hoping it would get better but it didnt! it PAINS me to think about it even now)

    3. U missed the point completely with my illustration. When i said this: ((its like shooting someone accidentally (if your american) then having them in a vegitative state with no method of recovery. Eventually someones gonna call a time of death no matter how much that person is loved by those around her!)) I was comparing euphy to being in a vegitative State! in otherwords THERE WAS NO SAVING HER!! after being Geassed she was AS GOOD AS DEAD!!!! Suzaku and Lelouch or should i say Zero need to die for different reasons.

    4.Fine that is currently true but u missed my point again! (i didnt explain clearly) In one breath your saying “Suzaku is trying to use peaceful means” and in the next you were saying, “Suzaku isnt/shouldnt be above sing WMD’s!

    5
    b. TRUE! im ok with it! (Shirley was all on Rolos head though, she was gonna accept Lelouch/Zero) Also the fact That the UFN is supposed to give people equal rights even if thier Brittanian also makes me ok with it!

    D. LOL of the five reaosns you gave 3 of them are deliberately Self Inflcited and are also the reason why i hate him in the first place! and one was an ACCIDENT!!!!!

    [Unless you become unlazy for this point! You concede the main point Making your entire argument (and for that matter everyone who sides with you meaningless)]

    WATCH STARWARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!! YOU NEED to watch it because its COMMON. its industry standard its like a picture book for people looking to get into science fiction/certain animes. Not watching it is like trying to learn times tables without learning to count (not impossible but REALLY DIFFCULT)

  • August 9, 2008 at 10:53 amWingZero zxt

    @Kalessin
    OMGoodness your right GG got it Wrong she did say wait for me in the world of C its just without prior knowledge youd translate ‘C’ (in japanese accent) and shin which means death!!! (over the 2 years of watching anime subbed ive picked up the odd Japanese word!) Thats the second time i know of that this has happend!!! the first time was in relation to the first time Charles called V.V. brother!!! i cant remember what they Tlated it to though!!!

    I still can olny watch Anime in one language though!! once ive seen it in one the other annoys me and Jonny Yong Bosh voice gets on my nipples!!!! also hearing people with american accents declare themselves both Royal AND Brittanian without the slightest hint of regal innotation or inflex (basically without sounding posh incase i used the wrong words there) REALLY annoys me.
    … err Yeh one language :P

  • August 9, 2008 at 11:52 amSilentveil

    WingZero zxt@

    Humph, at the rate things are going …Lelouche might not do it directly, but still be responsible for his sister’s death anyhow. Suzaku is trying to apologize, it’s the reason behind his sometimes wimpy philoshopy, otherwise, we would have a much more cold-blooded Suzaku. I mean he murdered his own father, that is generally the first step towards cold blooded killers in anime.

    [Points to myself: GIRL! Hell no, I won't watch ....Star Wars ...much rather try to catch a nuke in my teeth]]
    2. A.an incovient death doesn’t make it a treasonous action still, and the death of one leader in a democractic setting doesn’t mean much. Yet, in a monarchy, that causes complete and utter choas.
    B. This is my point, Suzaku’s cousin is treated like the next in line for a throne. It’s strange that a 13 year old girl would be the head representative for Japan on Lelouche’s side, instead of the many more capable representatives like Todou on his side.
    C. That’s not true …there are plenty of nameless faces in Code Geass, and beside that …I said interesting to me. Please go back and check, because, your statement is only half-read.
    3. True, but, that is without the hope of recovery. Eurphy had been given the impluse to kill Japanese, and as we can see, later on could have been reversed. There was still no excuse for hunting her down and killing her.It’s just cold blooded murder, and you really should stop trying to reason it away. It’s not like Lelouche doesn’t commit murder quite regular throughout the show.
    4. There is no peaceful methods in war, that’s why it’s call war. That’s why Suzaku says he wants to end the battles quicker so there is less death. He isn’t above using dangerous and deadly weapons, but he wants to avoid doing it as much as possible.

    5.
    A.Where does they say that? I don’t even remember the group having a Brittianna representative when they voted to free Japan. I think it’s more like …we are going to squash Brittianna’s forces, and then, well ..every country will decide how they want to do things won’t they?
    D. Wow, you don’t believe that someone can punish themselves? That’s called accountability, but you know, that can be a foreign word to some people. There is no accidentally killing when you seek the person out to kill them. I will say it again, the Geass was accidently, the murder was not.

    [[Difficult is good ...no Stars wars]]

  • August 9, 2008 at 2:02 pmshadowblack

    3. True, but, that is without the hope of recovery. Eurphy had been given the impluse to kill Japanese, and as we can see, later on could have been reversed. There was still no excuse for hunting her down and killing her.It’s just cold blooded murder, and you really should stop trying to reason it away. It’s not like Lelouche doesn’t commit murder quite regular throughout the show.
    As far as Lelouch knew back then (and as far as we knew back then) there was no way to free Euphemia from the effect of the geass. How was supposed Lelouch to know that V.V. would later equip Jeremiah with the Geass Canceler? Are you saying he should’ve let her continue killing?

  • August 9, 2008 at 3:01 pmSilentveil

    Shadowblack@

    No, he could have knocked her out, and left her to be picked up by Suzaku. IN fact, he didn’t have to actually go after Eurphy at all, and focus solely on stopping the knightmares around him and getting people out of there. I am pretty sure that Suzaku could have handled Eurphy in his knightmare. Though, why so much urgency to go after her, I believe it’s because Lelouche knew he messed up, big. So much so, that his ego couldn’t stand to look at it, so his solution was to get rid of his mistake instead of trying to find a solution to it.

    Hence, shoot Eurphy ….I will say it again, it wasn’t a necassary death, because, it’s not hard to see that Eurphy had totally lost it. I am pretty sure her sister, Suzaku, or anyone whom ever been around her would notice this fact.

  • August 9, 2008 at 4:26 pmshadowblack

    Suppose that he had not killed her but instead had let her get captured by Suzaku. What then? Remember, at that time there was no geass canceler (not even a hint that such a thing could exist), so there was no way to cancel the order she had been given. As far a we knew back then she would continue with her attempts to kill all Japanese, including Suzaku. What were Suzaku and Cornelia supposed to do? Keep her locked up and away from any Japanese so that she can’t kill any more and no one could try to kill her for what she did? Not to mention how she would feel if she ever got free from the geass and realized what she has done. Either way it would be worse than death. At least by killing her Lelouch allowed her to die happy, unaware of what she had really done.

    Yes, Lelouch knew he messed up, and yes, he took responsibility by stopping her personally instead of leaving it to someone else (which, unfortunately, meant killing her, as he saw no other way). And no, it wasn’t about his ego, or else he wouldn’t have cried after killing (in fact, he wouldn’t care at all if it was just about ego and nothing more).

  • August 9, 2008 at 4:48 pmRemmell

    It doesn’t surprise me that there would be a Villetta x Ougi relationship. These series about war are always filled with war cross friends, Lelouch and Suzaku, and war crossed lovers, in this example Ougi and Villetta. It’s that classic plot of “soldiers of different sides of the battle field who can’t deny their love” kind of deal. It’s basically the ‘Love Conquers All’ plot line. All these kind of series has one. That’s another reason there shouldn’t be a GinoxKallen pairning. Villetta and Ougi was established from the first season, and they have met their quota. lol It think Lelouch and Kallen would be far more interesting. They are on the same side, but Lelouch is a former prince of Britannia and at the time Kallen was the biggest Britannia hater. Now, Kallen has gotten to know Lelouch and obviously cares about him to some extent.
    Show Spoiler ▼

    I’m not so sure Cecil is in love with Guilford. Only thinkg that was shown of the kind of her visiting him in the hospital after he was shot down from the upgraded Guren. She just strikes me as the caretaker type. She even treats Suzaku as if he’s her kid brother. Lloyd has teased her as if she’s using Suzaku to replace someone else. They have never explained who that was yet.

    Show Spoiler ▼

  • August 9, 2008 at 5:05 pmKalessin

    @Silentveil
    I see two reasons why Lelouch killed Euphemia.

    1. She was slaughtering the Japanese and ordering the other Britannians to do so. He knew that she would do so as long as she lived. Killing her saved Japanese lives. With her dead, she couldn’t kill even one more Japanese and she certainly couldn’t order anyone else to do it. So, on some level, in the same sense that a soldier chooses to kill an enemy soldier to save his fellow soldiers, Lelouch chose to kill Euphemia.

    2. He killed her out of mercy. I know that you don’t like the injured animal analogy and I’m not claiming that it’s necessarily morally okay to kill a seriously injured human in order to save them the pain, but Euphemia was seriously damaged. She was going to continue to kill Japanese and order to have them killed during her whole life. As far as Lelouch knew at that point, there was no way to fix her. She could never function normally again. Between letting her unable to function properly and committing acts that she would regret and feel absolutely horrible about it had she been herself and killing her, he chose to kill her. It was – in that sense – a merciful act.

    I’m not going to claim that killing Euphemia was necessarily a completely moral act, but given that killing her at that point saved lives and that it was at least arguably merciful to kill her, I really don’t think that it was cold blooded murder. Actually, it surprises me when anyone thinks that Lelouch royally screwed up by killing Euphemia. I would have thought that the outrage would have been more that he just let everyone think that Euphemia did what she did on purpose and the she was scum. While he felt responsible for what happened to Euphemia he’s never publicly taken responsibility for it in any way shape or form. C.C. is the only other person who really knows what happened. He won’t even tell Suzaku what happened – though at least what he told Suzaku is taking responsibility for what happened even if he’s taking more responsibility than he had and making himself look worse than he was.

    What happened to Euphemia was horribly tragic and had Lelouch been more careful in the first place, it would never had happened, but it was an accident that she was Geassed. And when he killed her, I don’t think that you have much of an argument for cold-blooded murder. Certainly, I think that if the situation were put forth in a court of law (which was unbiased towards either side) without the Geass bits revealed, then Lelouch would have been found to be not-guilty because he was defending others. And even if the Geass bits were revealed to such a court, he would likely be found guilty of manslaughter at most – and that’s because he wasn’t careful enough and his negligence resulted in the deaths of thousands. At that point, the fact that he killed Euphemia would not be the problem.

    Really, the situation Euphemia is tragic, but I don’t think that Lelouch was as in the wrong as you seem to think that he is. Regardless, I find it somewhat surprising that this topic is still being argued. I’d have thought that it’d have been a dead horse long since, but it’s naturally something that people feel strongly about I suppose.

    And as for having seen the original Star Wars, I can totally understand thinking that their special effects and the like look bad now (they’re not exactly recent movies after all), but they’re classic movies that just about everyone sees at some point. And while I can totally understand not having seen the new movies, the very fact that they came out has only increased the number of people who have seen the original Star Wars trilogy. It’s just one of those things that you tend to expect that everyone has seen at least once. So, it does make you appear rather rare to not have seen them. I suppose that as time goes on and the movies become older, it’ll be increasingly common to find people who haven’t seen them, but it still seems weird. That’s certainly not to say that there’s anything wrong with you. It’s just not what I would have considered normal and expected.

  • August 9, 2008 at 5:23 pmKalessin

    @Remmell
    Well, I wasn’t trying to claim that Cecile was necessarily in love with Guilford – and she certainly is the “caretaker” type – but the fact that she was hanging out with Guilford when as far as we knew they didn’t even know each other implied that there might be a relationship there. I was just trying to list every possible romantic connection in Code Geass that I could think of and it turned out that most of them are rather flimsy. While romance is there, this show just isn’t a romantic one overall.

    Show Spoiler ▼

  • August 9, 2008 at 5:57 pmKalessin

    @WingZero zxt
    **Cringes at the thought of anyone in Code Geass speaking with a “posh” accent**. Their arrogance level would go through the roof if that were to happen. *Shudder* They already think too much of themselves without sounding that much more like they do.

    Normally, I don’t pay a lot of attention to accents. They tend to have to be pretty strong before I notice consciously. If I understand them, it’s not a big deal generally. Of course, there are some accents that would be painful or just weird to have. Southern accents, for insteance, stereotypically give the impression of a lack of education. That kind of accent coming from someone like Lelouch would just plain be wrong. As for British accents, I have no problem with them, but I’m American, so I naturally expect English to spoken with an American accent and not a British one. I’ve seen plenty of television with British accents – I’m an avid fan of Doctor Who for instance – but still, I’m usually going to expect American accents. Besides, you wouldn’t use them in a dub by American actors without a major reason for doing so. The show is being dubbed with an American audience in mind and with American actors, so you’re going to get American accents on dubs. It’s the result of America being the bigger market and thus being where anime is more likely to be dubbed into English. So, sorry, no posh accents in Code Geass.

    Aside from the accent issue, however, I much prefer to watch anime dubbed in my own language rather than simply subtitled. The anime was dubbed in Japanese in the first place, so it doesn’t look wrong when anime is re-dubbed with English (unlike what you get with like actors). You have translation problems whether you have a dub or a sub, so it’s not as if subtitles are a lot better in that sense. They don’t have to worry about choosing wording that fits to the mouths of the characters, but it’s not like not having that problem is going to drastically improve the subtitles. They might be slightly truer to the original, but without speaking Japanese, I don’t think that you can really judge how true the subs are anyway.

    In either case, I just plain prefer watching anime dubbed in English. There are plenty of people who think differently on the matter than I do. I watch the fansubs for Code Geass because I really want to know what happens without waiting for the dub to show up in the US. It’s actually a sign of how much I like it that I’m watching it subbed since I virtually never do that.

  • August 9, 2008 at 9:26 pmWingZero zxt

    Impressive! Silent Veil completely dodged the last point! makin the argument pointless but i will indulge later. Also i understand why they did what they did with Code Geass as they di with all other anime But seriously! Lelouch is Arrogant as is every main charater in Code geass (except possibly kallen) Thats a reason for doing it and like i said watching people wear posh clothes then sound so blatently american without a hint of elegance about it maes code Geass in english seem like a glorified cosplay event! I mean even from the way that lelouch speas in Japanese (usinng all the honorifics and what not its clear that a ccertain level of class was implied that i dont think having certain voice actors convey works. Though im using my argumentative typing voice (If there is suh a thing) i do honestly respect your opnion! I do however submit that sometimes certain thoughts arent portrayed correctly and many other times somthing is lost in translation (im findinng im having to watch all my old series like Dragonall Z and Gundam Wing ver again just so i can make sure that what was said was said!) Also i find that watching subtitles from different groups over a long period of time enables you to get a clearer understanding of what certain (buzz-words) japanese words mean and its only after this period that i came to take issue with Dubs! especially when japanese sayings are used with no english counterpart! that being said Dubs arent always bad: Cowboy bebop(cos the characters werent particularly classy, Dragonball Z (though it was so long ago its unfair to form an opinion eitherway), Ghost in the Shell! it dindt annoy my ears and the points made were relatively easy to understand considering!

    But when they are bad they’re horrid: Naruto, One Piece(dont like the series though so im bit biased)Chobits, Macross (original), Slayers) ultimately im a fan of the voice sounding the way it ought to in line with the characters actions and if they sound to suave (whilst action rubbish) or not suave or posh enough (whilst acting like royalty ) it winds me up! It would be like hearing the voice of Arnold Swartchinegger (meh at spelling) come out of the body of Jonny Depp, or the voice of Sean Connery come from the body of jim Carrey (it would be funnny though) Wowi went far to express a mere opinion

    Anyway……. @SilentVeil (SHAMe on you if you dint see this comming)

    Girls dont like Starwars? Thats good to know! Girls like code geass? Also good to know! Im slighlty suprised at both of these! ahwell such is the Greatness of this series! ( THIRD SEASON PLEAAAAAASE!!!! GUNDAM JUST WONT CUT IT)(its vintage YOU HAVE NO CHOICE!!)
    2.A WELL in the setting of code geass OBVIOUSLY it does! ignoring parts of the overal theme for the sake of argument is quite pointless Similarly to how i used to ignore parts of what my mum says just so i have a leg to stand on when i dont do as im told later… It doesnt work! i STill get into trouble!!!! ALSO you seem to desperately be trying to make it sound like he died of natural causes when he was KILLED!!!!! deliberately!!! (you cant even formulate a decent ‘accident’ excuse even with his age!)
    B. Yeh in real life it would be a tad random. She is a memeber of one of the Families that controled most of Japan financial nd certain military assets (so when brittania came in and near effortlessly took control*due to the assaination of thier leader by a certain ten year old-ehem* thier group remained somewhat functional til Kirihara was klled inbetween season 1 and 2. She’s therefore recognised as a figurehead in japan and because she also happens to have a political opinion which stems from more than just greed and comfort she has essentially gained proper Japanese figurehead status!

    C. Fine i admit i skimmed it a tad quickly (MY BAD ) Let me ask you this then If suzakus plan has no benefit for Himself, Is not what lelouch wants and totally screws up the entire world if he wins WHY is he doing it again??? You totally prove my point with this line of reasoning! A side from him living out his self inflicted exile in confort no-one benefits from his behavior (except for the obviously bad ruling party!)

    3. “No, he could have knocked her out, and left her to be picked up by Suzaku. IN fact, he didn’t have to actually go after Eurphy at all, and focus solely on stopping the knightmares around him and getting people out of there. I am pretty sure that Suzaku could have handled Eurphy in his knightmare. Though, why so much urgency to go after her, I believe it’s because Lelouche knew he messed up, big. So much so, that his ego couldn’t stand to look at it, so his solution was to get rid of his mistake instead of trying to find a solution to it.

    Hence, shoot Eurphy ….I will say it again, it wasn’t a necassary death, because, it’s not hard to see that Eurphy had totally lost it. I am pretty sure her sister, Suzaku, or anyone whom ever been around her would notice this fact.” YOUR POINT HERE BOTH AMUSES AND DISSAPOINTS ME ! Think back! who was it who found Euphy first! would rather she died ‘that’ way?????? SERIOUSLY AMUSING if lelouch had given the order you put here SHE STILL WOULD HAVE DIED!!!! LOL just incase you dont knw what i mean by that way it involves a Giant MK2 Claw and HEAVY DOSES OF RADIATION! i guess they could have made her into another Jeremiah….. :P you seem hung up on this point andtherefore unable to see the bigger picture!
    4.Totally counter to you argument! ADVOCATING PEACE involves BEING PEACEFUL!!!! therefore you cant say that Suzakus methods are any more humane then lelouches it Just suzaku is a grunt commander (even now) and lelouch is a master strategist thier on two completely different levels! Youd have to compare Lelouchs methods with Suzakus superior the emperor and your nor seriously gonna justify his existence are you!
    5.a)You missed that part honestly not my failing… yours! he announced it near begining of S2 if i remember correctly
    D) LOL INDEED i dont beleive in self punishment its not fair. When you commit a crime that effects so many other people, slapping yourself on the wrist and then NOT APOLOGISING isnt punishment! its a cop out!!! Thats what adds further validity to lelouch! because through both his own actions and through the actions of his father hes had forcibly removed from him (BY SOMEONE ELSE!!!) So much more then suzaku claims to have given up just cos he used to feel sorry for himself! HE DOESENT DESERVE THE RIGHT TO PUNISH HIMSELF HES DONE TO MUCH DAMAGE and unlike suzaku Lelouch ALways gets his ‘comupants’ he always pays the price no matter what!

    Your failiure to come up with a counterpoint to my best argument siginfies the only reason you prefer suzaku is cos of Euphy! (pretty much the same as all other suzaku supporters; narrow minded indeed!) Its just like what was said about Kei in episode 17 of special A! His manner maybe disagreeable buythes actually a nice guy (the opposite of suzaku whos just a guy who has a pleasant voice which he uses to hide his wrong doings ! Suzakus VOICE is his MASK!!!!
    And Also if youd watc Stawrwars youd realise that LUKE SKYWALKER is the way Suzaku SHOULD BE!!!!!

    HERE IS A LIST of FANTASY VOICE ACTORS for Code Geass:
    1. Lelouch: DAN GREEN(the guy who did the pharohs voice in Yugioh) or failing that the uy who does Stewie voice from FamilyGuy
    2. emperor: Christopher Lee or the guy who played Gandalf at a push Sean Conery
    3. Cornelia: Tricky! cant do it yet
    4. Euphy:Paris Hilton Britney Spears one of the Olsen twins or Cameron Diaz the girl who played Hermione in harry potter films (the HP films suck)
    5. Schniziel: Tom cruise Brad Pitt or
    6. Mao: jonny Depp, Jim Carrey or at the very least the guy who played murdok in the A team
    7. Kallen: Lucy Liu
    8. Shirley: The one remaining olsen twin or Camron Diaz provided they aint used yet
    9. Suzaku: Mark Hamil (to prove a point)
    10. Toudou: Sulu from Startrek (the actor was also in heroes dont know his real name)
    11. Xingke: Jet Li (OBV)
    12. C.C.: Dunno yet perhaps Elisha cuthbert (no reason shes just hot!)

    And my prediction

    Suzaku will use Freya on lelouch lelocuh will survive due to the awesome defensive power of the Shinkirou! ten million others will die Schniziel will the opurtunity to tell black knights who lelouch really is and his crazy power Asahina whos been digging arund will verify it before dying and that will cause Blackknights to oppose Zero just before they win Japan! Suzaku will meanwhile still ONLY now just come to the realisation that when you do somthing stupid you need to oppose that action not work with it in order to achieve success! He will feel sorry for blaming lelouch for everything he was responsible for and Lelouch having lsot everything will come to agree that lying isnt ALWAYS the best way to do things the will patch thier differences and together they will ride off into battle with whoever ultimately leading to a confrontation with the emperor in which suzaku dies (IM HOPING) Kallen will be there and so will C.C who gets her memories bck! Nina will be killed for warcrimes (she put a large Freya on the lancelot instead of a small one like shniziel asked!) UFN will get Japan ; world map redrawn forcing Brittania tonegotiate all of its other disputes to settle them without loosing to much! Lelouch will look after nunally Kallen gets Lelouch C.C gets to die and somewhere prior Rolo Bradly and Bismark all die! Gino gets millay! Schnizeil gets Cecile ad Guilford gets Cornelia bck! THE END

  • August 9, 2008 at 10:43 pmKalessin

    @WingZero zxt
    There are always translation issues when going from one language to another. There’s no way around that. Subtitles give the opportunity to give notes on translations and the like – which can mitigate the problem somewhat – but they can’t fix it. Also, unlike dubs, subs don’t have to make sure that the words chose match the lips of the characters, so they have a little more freedom in how they translate something. That gives the opportunity for a little more accuracy in translations, but it really doesn’t fix the core problem. Things always get lost in the translation. It’s only a question of how much – not if. The only way to make sure that you don’t lose anything in the translation is to become fully fluent in the language and culture of the original material (which in this case is Japanese).

    As for how well actors’ voices match their characters, that’s not something that I really have a problem with. In fact, I could probably count on one hand the number of times that I’ve thought that a voice actor did a poor job or just didn’t fit the character. Some do better than others, but overall I just don’t have a problem with American dub actors overall. Maybe I’m just not critical enough, but they seem to me like they generally do a good job.

    Now, it’s really weird to watch the dub of a show that you’ve seen subbed. Everyone sounds wrong at that point. But I really think that that’s because you’re not used to the new actors. You’d probably have the same reaction if they kept the language the same but changed actors for all the characters (though changing the language does add another layer of strangeness). Personally, I think that that’s where a lot of the complaints about dubs come from: the people complaining have seen the original Japanese and the new, English-speaking voice actors sound different, so they sound wrong.

    As for thinking that arrogant royalty need a British accent, that’s probably because you’re British. I really don’t see using a British accent as adding much. It would be particularly weird if only a portion of the actors had British accents. But, I can totally understand if you have different views on when it does and doesn’t sound weird to have a British accent since you’re British. Of course, as I said, I don’t notice accents much. When I understand someone, I tend to not notice their accent. For instance, when watching Doctor Who and Jack Harkness is there, it does not register at all with me that he’s speaking with an American accent and everyone else is speaking with a British one (if you don’t actually watch Doctor Who, then you likely won’t get the example, but the idea should be clear enough).

    In any case, that’s probably way too much on sub vs dub and the accents involved. The reality of the matter is that it’s a very opinion-riddled subject. You can have one person think that an actor was perfect for a given role and that no one else could even compare and have another person think that the person was complete rubbish in the role. I mean, take your list of famous actors being used in Code Geass. Personally, my first reaction is complete horror while for you, it’s your ideal list.

  • August 10, 2008 at 2:19 amolivia

    fook.

  • August 10, 2008 at 4:14 amWingZero zxt

    Yeh i know its amusing i wasnt saying i was right! (i think) its just my opnion that being royal then hving the accent of a common man (from america) doesnt sell it to me. im british yet i know i and pretty much allof my friends would do terrible dubs and have terriblevoices for all of the roles involved! Because im a commoner! Theycouldhave weak German accents (that would also sell it in areas) And im all about the voices unlike you who doesnt notice much! (Mao as Jim carrey would be amusing though) What i was trying to do with the list was capture the same flare i got from watching the original! cos eventhough ive been watching Sybbed anime for a long time (3/4years i think) The voice acting in CG was REmarkable and original! ill leave it at that shall i ! It was a fun convo

  • August 13, 2008 at 1:10 amyo

    dude the bitch who made freya needs to die NOW!!!

  • August 20, 2008 at 8:53 pme

    Not one single picture of orange? for shame

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