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Naruto 591 – Playing With Fire

Naruto Manga   591   01

Wow. Just, wow. I’m not sure about you guys, but that chapter totally threw me for a loop (in a good way). I mean, I got easily fooled multiple times in the span of a few pages! For one, with the first quarter of the chapter focused on showing the continuation of the Edo Tensei’s release and Dan’s attempt to go to Tsunade, I figured it’d be pretty straight forward. Dan would meet up with Tsunade, they’d have a nice emotional discussion and maybe some flashbacks, and it’d be the calm before the storm (the last battle) for the most part. But nope. Close but no cigar, Kishimoto says. We get Dan meeting up with Tsunade and their emotional talk, as well as a small flashback… but then comes the first small twist in the chapter. See, I kind of expected Madara to just accept that the Edo Tensei was released and that he would stop fighting—considering his initial reaction—but contrary to my predictions, he just kept on fighting. In the end though, I suppose it just fits in perfectly with his personality/character. In addition, the best part perhaps was the fact it gave Dan that one more moment in the spotlight, demonstrating just how great of a person he is, while also showing an obvious contrast to Madara. It also didn’t hurt that this made his reunion with Tsunade just that darn more emotional.

But in the end, the second twist is definitely the biggest one of this chapter. And well, it’s as many of you predicted: Madara indeed manages to counter the Edo Tensei’s release. It’s not quite the exact reasoning everyone predicted per se and it’s something I pondered a bit about too (possibility-wise), but I had figured that the Edo Tensei release would be the end of him, especially with the indications from the middle of this chapter. But well, although some may disagree, this is definitely a pretty positive development for the most part. I’m not hating on the Kages or anything of the sort, but it certainly felt unreasonable for all of them to survive the Ninja War, which seemed like quite a possibility judging from last few chapters. Madara’s full “reincarnation” so the speak, virtually guarantees the death of at least one Kage at this point, if not most of them. As much as I’d hate to see them go though, it’s just something I’ve been expecting for the longest time, and it just fits in with the whole “new generation taking over” theme that Kishimoto’s been alluding to throughout the entire Ninja War.

And well, what else is there to say? This chapter just redeems any of the lacking qualities of the past few chapters for the most part, while setting up some darn climactic fights in the future. For some reason though, I get the feeling that Itachi’s “leaving of his feelings” to Sasuke will play a big part soon… perhaps to the point where Sasuke ends up being the one that contributes to the defeat/sealing of the newly reincarnated (with UNLIMITED CHAKRA!) Madara. Subsequently, I can see the remaining Kages (if any) being too incapacitated to stop Sasuke, who I predict will actually spare the lives of the remaining Kages and go straight to Naruto. From there, I reckon it’d be practically impossible for them to have their fated battle considering Tobi’s continued presence… so I believe the end result will be Sasuke and Naruto taking down Tobi and ending the war, followed by one last showdown between the two to end the series. As for what happens afterwards, I’m a bit torn between whether I think Naruto survives or not… but I reckon he’ll most likely survive and become Hokage when all’s said and done. Either that, or (like some people have commented before) he dies and gets shrined on the mountain with the other Hokage anyway… and Kakashi becomes the next Hokage or something. Just my two cents and attempt at forecasting the end eh. :D

Author’s Notes:

  • I will be away all of next week, so Naruto manga coverage will resume on July 11th with a double post on Chapters 592-3.
  • If you have time, take a peek at my quick final impressions on the spring season over at my blog!
  • June 27, 2012 at 9:07 am
    62 comments »
    • June 27, 2012 at 9:11 amLaughingMan

      Why am I not surprised that Kishimoto would pull bullshit like this?

      • June 27, 2012 at 9:29 amWingZeroZXT

        Does that mean you dont like it from a creative standpoint (it makes the story bad) or You think is sucks that now the Kages or some of them are now most likely to die??

        • June 27, 2012 at 9:41 amZephyr

          I believe he’s probably talking about the Madara part, which does feel a bit trolling and farfetched, but makes sense if you think about it. Explanation in reply to comment below this.

        • June 27, 2012 at 12:11 pmKarmafan

          I’ve been thinking all along that the old stone Kage and Bee’s brother Kage would die in this arc and possibly Tsunade as well. The other female Kage and Gaara are younger and I do get the feeling the author wants to set up a next future generation vibe to end ther series so some of the old guard leaders need to take a dirt nap.

        • June 28, 2012 at 12:56 amLaughingMan

          I’m talking about the fact that Madara somehow is able to stay alive even with the Edo-Tensei deactivated. This level of stupidity is to be expected in Kishimoto’s writing however.

      • June 27, 2012 at 12:39 pmCluttered Mind

        It’s hardly bullshit. It was already pretty obvious that Edo Tensei had to have a weakness, Tobi flat out didn’t believe Kabuto when he said the technique was without any risk or weakness whatsoever. I actually really like this reveal. It makes a great deal of sense that the weakness of Edo Tensei is that if you’re dumb enough to resurrect someone with it who also knows the Edo Tensei technique, they can break free of your control. I mean, think of it another way. Necromancers don’t make free willed undead out of the bodies of stronger necromancers than themselves, do they? They could never expect to maintain any kind of control at all. Same principle applies here. Madara knew how the technique worked and Kabuto was not only dumb enough to resurrect him, but to resurrect him in an even stronger form than he had when he died. I don’t have a problem with this development at all, I like it a lot and I look forward to seeing how anyone can possibly defeat Madara now.

        • June 27, 2012 at 1:33 pmLayfon

          To be honest I didn’t see it that way at all when I read this chapter. It kind of just flew over my head. Now that you put it in such a way, this really does sound like a really interesting development to me now. Thank!

        • June 29, 2012 at 2:26 pmimerik

          But doesn’t this leave kind of a gap on why the 1st and 2nd hokages didn’t just take over the contract when Orichimaru summoned them? I mean if it’s just some seals they should have been able to pull it off before he put the daggers in.

          I mean the 2nd made the technique you’d think he’d know.

        • July 1, 2012 at 3:36 amvoidgenesis

          Thanks for explaining this fully for me, i didnt quite get it till you broke it down for me but omfg Madara is Godly, he makes sasuke look weak with jin-spamming sharingan ways. Damn though to think madara knew the edo-tensei enough to disable it, would be like a necromancer summoning a stronger necromancer to fight for him. Why didnt madara cancel the edo-tensei from the get go though lol. Wow though that generation with madara, the 1st n 2nd hokage how god-teir were they, they were doing all this stuff back then.

          With regards to why the 1st n 2nd didnt cancel edo-tensei when they were first summoned, well orochimaru cancelled their free will almost immediately after summoning them so they were unable to anything, unlike madara whom kabuto gave full control of his actions. Maybe it takes the 1st’s cells to cancel/use edo-tensei. But with kabuto MIA madara had nothing holding him back and no-one to cancel his free-will.

          I really didnt want madara to die, his character is very cool, to me at least, and having showed all those powers and abilities for him to go out like that is just impractical. Sorry but the kage need to die, espeically oonoki and maybe raikage, not gaara though, that guy already died once lol

      • June 28, 2012 at 11:00 amHalfDemonInuyasha

        Well, as mentioned, it’s not exactly that farfetched. Sure it’s pretty convenient, but at least it’s believable, unlike the sudden Izanagi, Izanami, etc crap the Sharingan constantly pulls out.

        This time, it was just a matter of knowing the hand seals and, based on when Tobirama made it, it’s easy to believe that Madara was also around and simply copied it with the Sharingan or something.

      • June 29, 2012 at 5:42 amhamhamham

        Lol you are just upset that the noobkages are going to kick the bucket soon. Sucks for you. For the rest of the people who wants to see A REAL WAR, enjoy!

    • June 27, 2012 at 9:11 amAlcren

      So the edo tensei did release him…..he can just…..summon….himself…wtf mindblown

      • June 27, 2012 at 9:39 amZephyr

        The Edo Tensei basically works by taking the soul of the person you’re trying to resurrect and puts it into a targeted body. Body in turn gains all abilities of the original person, yadiyadiya except with unlimited w/e. However, it also binds the person to do the bidding of the person who performed the spell.

        Basically, what happened is when the Edo Tensei was released, Madara briefly gained control of his body again. Using this time and the fact he knew the seals of the Edo Tensei, he cancelled out the portion involving Kabuto’s control/contract over him before he could be completely released. Thus he negated the fact that Kabuto had control over him and summoned him, making it so that only Madara himself now can unsummon himself. And because release was incomplete at the time, it doesn’t continue now that Madara is in control, and he stays within the body. This actually makes sense as a possibility, because Kabuto needed to do additional seals to assert total control over the people he summoned.

        • June 27, 2012 at 10:25 amAlcren

          I agree but iit still doesn’t stop him from being an ultra hax character,

        • June 27, 2012 at 12:04 pmZephyr

          Well… yes, but he was hax from the beginning, XD.

        • June 27, 2012 at 12:40 pmCluttered Mind

          Yes, it’s quite simple. If you’re going to use Edo Tensei, don’t be dumb enough to resurrect someone else who knows Edo Tensei. That’s the weakness in the technique that Tobi was sure existed but Kabuto denied.

        • June 27, 2012 at 3:55 pmHakumeiJin

          My problem with this is the fact that it creates plot holes in the past. Even if we ignore Madara waiting until now to use this secret method thus forcing him to interrupt a technique by saying he was just having fun, this technique wasn’t created only now.

          My first objection here might be meaningless since I refuse to believe this is that overpowered but according to Madara him canceling the jutsu himself gave him an immortal body, unlimited chakra and free will. If this is true and it’s known I’d assume anyone who learned Edo Tensei would then find someone to teach it and then kill himself so that he could be resurrected in a new broken form. Especially easy for Tobirama who could have taught it to one of the other Hokage who should definitely be capable and reliable enough for it. So let’s ignore this as well by arguing Naruto ninjas are all idiots then comes the worst problem.

          Edo Tensei was first used by Orochimaru to summon the first 2 Hokages. If this really is the only weakness of the jutsu then I’d assume the guy who invented it should have been able to use it.(Unless the control is strong enough to make sure you can’t negate it, which would be weird since how is that even a weakness then considering it won’t appear unless you end the jutsu)

        • June 27, 2012 at 6:09 pmHalfDemonInuyasha

          The main flaw here is that you speak as if Edo Tensei was widely known. It isn’t. So far as we know, only Tobirama Senju (the creator), Orochimaru (took it further), and now Kabuto (“perfected” it) have ever used it.

          Yes, others know about its existence, but NOT exactly how to use it (hand seals, chakra flow, etc). It’s a Kinjutsu because of it violating the very laws of nature, thus it’s something not even allowed to be learned by others once it’s put in the Forbidden Scroll (for Konoha anyway). Orochimaru only knew from being able to read the Forbidden Scroll himself and Kabuto knows because of him “containing” Orochimaru in himself. I highly doubt any of them went and taught it to others (Tobirama out of morals and Orochimaru/Kabuto due to not wanting it used against them and such), so despite this little plot twist that is very well possible (as I mentioned, Madara could’ve simply copied with the Sharingan as it’s not related to a Kekkei Genkai), it’s not really any problem.

          It was most likely because of such weaknesses that Orochimaru used seals to completely eliminate the Summoned ones’ free will, thus they’d never have any chance of pulling what Madara did.

    • June 27, 2012 at 9:22 amTibbery

      The Uchiha clan had to be destroyed, because they planned a coup (they were the ‘evil village endangering people’). Sasuke learnt of that a short time ago. But for the most time it was just the ‘village’ killing his family and he has a right to be angry about this.

      I think a ‘immortal drastically map changing uber uchiha endboss’ could give him a hint, what the village had feared in worst case of the clan.

      • June 27, 2012 at 11:21 amHalfDemonInuyasha

        He has a right to be angry in general, but at the same time, he’s being ignorant and childish about it and making little to no attempt to actually understand the whole situation and reasoning why.

        He’s merely picking and choosing what he wants to hear/believe while ignoring all the other facts and/or twisting them to justify his path of “vengeance” (ego-boosting).

        Like he heard on how the Uchiha planned a coup to take control of the village and Hiruzen tried to reason with them and end it peacefully, but they couldn’t be swayed. So essentially, common sense shows that the Uchiha Clan brought their own death down upon their heads and the Elders were completely justified in getting rid of the Clan, lest they ignite a civil war that would’ve resulted in a lot of Konoha being damaged/destroyed with many other Clan Members, if not entire other, Clans being wiped out, thus severely weakening Konoha and leaving it a huge target to be captured or destroyed by another village. To civilians, it may seem barbaric and unnecessary, but this is where looking at the bigger picture comes into play.

        Sasuke twists it all around to say, “Well, the Uchiha were always the strongest and DESERVED to be in control and everybody knew that, so they just wanted to keep them down until they couldn’t anymore”, in order to justify his reason to destroy Konoha.

        And despite learning the whole truth, he still seems to refuse to believe Itachi made the choice of destroying the Clan himself of his own free will, and just keeps on believing that the village forced Itachi to kill the Clan and endure all the pain and suffering as a result.

    • June 27, 2012 at 9:34 amWingZeroZXT

      Twas Awesome. Especially the bit with madara not dying. Whats less convincing is that Nagato, Itachi or any of the other summons didnt know that this would or could happen. (Lol not really it would jut be nice if one them had survived instead :P) but all in all a fairly impressive chapter.

      Prediction: Mizukage is gonna die. Dont really know her not epecially important in any way they will big her up then kill her off.

      • June 27, 2012 at 12:42 pmCluttered Mind

        How could they have known? Even the existence of Edo Tensei is not exactly common knowledge, and people who know how to use it are even rarer. The one flaw in the technique being that you really shouldn’t resurrect anyone else who knows the technique is understandably unknown. Obviously even Kabuto himself was unaware of it or he wouldn’t have been dumb enough to try it on Madara.

    • June 27, 2012 at 9:46 amSpencer

      I can totally see why Madara was able to counter the Edo Tensei’s release, because he probably helped the 2nd Hokage develop it.

      The way I see it is now someone is going to have to pull out the Shiki Fuujin (a.k.a: the jutsu the 3rd Hokage used to stop Orochimaru), but I can’t think of anyone who knows it.

      • June 27, 2012 at 10:57 amHalfDemonInuyasha

        Only reason Madara would ever help a non-Uchiha, especially a Senju, develop any technique would be to steal it for himself later, depending on its usefulness. Otherwise, Madara simply heard about it and spied, simply using the Sharingan to copy it.

        • June 27, 2012 at 2:32 pmCluttered Mind

          Copied it with the Sharingan is my guess.

    • June 27, 2012 at 9:48 amkal 1# fan

      what is everyones deal, seriously everyone takes naruto too seriously, can’t people just enjoy the chapter?

      I on the other hand enjoyed the chapter, in fact i haven’t hated one single chapter this naruto started, i support kishi 100% of the way.

      Now i admit the one thing that i was Disappointed was that now we won’t probably see naruto for at least another couple of chapters.

    • June 27, 2012 at 10:44 amRamram

      I don’t understand the “unlimited chakra” part…where’s all this chakra coming from?

    • June 27, 2012 at 10:54 amYanDaMan

      So THIS is the weakness of Edo Tensei that Tobi suspected when he confronted Kabuto about it. The summoned souls can just say “Fk you” and take control of themselves and be almost invincible, probably killing the caster as a result. The only thing that piss me off about this is that Itachi couldnt be the one to figure this out and stay with us, instead we get Madara, who’s totally not already OP enough as he was.

      Seriously though, with all the Kage’s drained, who is left who would be a match for an invulnerable Madara with infinite MP? I doubt even Sasuke and Naruto combined would be a match right now. Unless Kabuto somehow knows a countermeasure to this, but if he did, he would’ve used it on Itachi already.

      • June 28, 2012 at 7:56 amGolos

        No thanks, Itachi is already too hax.

    • June 27, 2012 at 11:09 amalde

      So, as I pray,

      Unlimited Chakra Works

      • June 27, 2012 at 11:38 amJustinnnnnn

        XD Oh God, so many internet memes can be used for this…

      • June 29, 2012 at 1:11 amDarth Sidious

        POWER!!!

        UNLIMITED POWER!!!

    • June 27, 2012 at 11:10 amHalfDemonInuyasha

      Considering what we’ve seen, Naruto and Sasuke, even at full power, couldn’t do much to Madara at this point without some more serious hax power-ups. Sasuke couldn’t even get past any 1 of the 5 Kage before and, as we’ve been seeing, even all 5 working together could barely put dents in Madara when he was toying with them, and the (Eternal Mangekyo) Sharingan and Rinnegan could most likely still screw with Kurama’s chakra, even if Madara can’t actually Summon him out of Naruto, and I doubt Sage Mode would really do much of anything either.

      So as many of us long suspected, Madara loopholes Edo Tensei, though in a much more simple fashion that we probably thought as well. Not even any Rinnegan usage to do so. Just knowing the seals for the technique yourself and *POOF!*, SURPRISE!

      The main problem on stopping Madara isn’t so much the properties of Edo Tensei, but the fact that, as we saw, the normal methods of sealing him up don’t work either since he easily overpowered their attempt with Susano’o. That only leaves the small chance that someone else knows, and is willing to use, the Shiki Fujin and they can manage to hold Madara long enough for it to work. Otherwise, unless there’s some other loophole (which there probably will be), Madara has become what Orochimaru could only dream of; an all-powerful immortal.

      • June 27, 2012 at 11:47 amKranyte

        I love that connection to Orochimaru.. I think many have forgotten that was one of Orochimaru’s goal all along to become immortal and learn every jutsu possible.. its a nice turn of events in which Madara is achieve Orochimaru’s goal :P

        I agree though, granted I did think that Madara would somehow not be affected by the Edo Tensei release, i never thought it was so simple. Tobi all along suspected there was some weakness. Then combined with how both Orochimaru and Kabuto used additional seals to erase personality it does make sense despite how much people want to hate the idea *shrugs* I’m just liking this development.. had Madara simply gone away from just Itachi’s intervention and no Kage killed it would have been anticlimactic and rather dull :S

        Here’s to hoping Zephyr is right and multiple Kage die :O

    • June 27, 2012 at 11:40 amJustinnnnnn

      “Phew finally, Madara’s fight is coming to an end. A bit anti-climatic, but oh w”

      OH SHI-

      Naruto is on a roll finally, maybe?

    • June 27, 2012 at 11:45 amTOP2NE1

      That part with Tsunade was awful and contrived.

      I’ll buy Dan going back to save the rest of the kages and whatever, imparting his powers. But Tsunade just conveniently happened to be the one being attacked at the time? Pushing the white knight angle a little too hard there. She was already lucky enough to receive any help from his unnaturally-tailored-to-fit-this-situation-jutsu the first place.

    • June 27, 2012 at 12:07 pmAnanas

      Being Madara is being hax. Honestly.

    • June 27, 2012 at 12:24 pmViciousOne

      While the method Madara used to gain control of himself is plausible, Kishi is walking a very thin line. Keep this up and we’re going to have to change Madara’s name to Aizen.

      • June 27, 2012 at 12:51 pmCluttered Mind

        It’s not just plausible, it was foreshadowed. Kabuto swore to Tobi that there was no weakness or risk in the technique and Tobi flat out didn’t believe him. Now we know what the risk was. Aizen’s bullshit was criticized as much as it was because it was all pulled out of his ass with no warning or indication that anything of the sort was going to happen. This plot development has none of that. You can clearly see that the story was building to this if you go back and read the hints.

    • June 27, 2012 at 3:32 pmaymanxa

      correct me if i’m wrong .. bit if Madara knows how to use the edo Tensei .. and the technique was created by Tobirama the second hokage .. how did madara learned about this ability ?!! does it mean that he had lived after his battle with the first Hokage ?!

      • June 27, 2012 at 10:05 pmChris

        sho and ni were very close in age based on hiruzen’s flashbacks. It is highly possible that ni developed this technique before the big spat.

    • June 27, 2012 at 3:52 pmTOP2NE1

      You’d think that if the Leaf forbade this technique in fear of this kind of exploitation they’d have some sort of countermeasure. Why didn’t they use the technique on some powerful, unflinchingly loyal Leaf ninja? They would find some person who’d be willing to sacrifice his or her own life then be resurrected, cancel the resurrection, and resurrect themselves. That way the Leaf would have their own unstoppable force on their side. That or create some sort of counter jutsu for this kind of situation.

      I mean for example I’d understand if some country were to ban guns to the general public in order to deter crime. But at the same time wouldn’t you reinforce your own troops with ways to tackle lawbreakers who have guns? Like with guns of their own?

      Hell even Naruto’s shadow clone technique is forbidden and they don’t enforce the Leaf village law on him. They keep on letting him use it. What makes this so much more dangerous than say, a giant fucking fireball in your face? Or a kick to the gut at 200 mph? It all seems so arbitrary to me. You’d think they’d want these super powerful techniques on their side rather than abide by bans unquestioningly. Because villains certainly wouldn’t give two shits about your rules. It’s like giving yourself a one-sided handicap.

      • June 27, 2012 at 7:59 pmHalfDemonInuyasha

        1.) Probably because they never expected it to ever be “perfected” the way it was by Orochimaru (still not said HOW he did compared to Tobirama), much less used against them. Sadly, every village has some sort of arrogance like that.

        Also because most of them have morals. While Danzo would most likely have no problem doing such a thing for the good of the village if it came down to it (though, he would use it similar to Orochimaru and strip away free will probably to ensure control and “loyalty”), you can bet that Konoha would hesitate on using stuff that disrespects the dead like that.

        2.) “Forbidden” doesn’t always translate to “not allowed to use ever” (though the Edo Tensei does fit that portion of the category).

        Ones like the Kage Bunshin are Forbidden simply because of the danger they pose to the user themself, thus too dangerous to teach to just anybody. Any normal shinobi, even with pretty large reserves, can end up easily overtaxed by using the Kage Bunshin because of its properties if they’re too careless with it. Like Kakashi can only make a max of 20, IIRC, with his reserves before being totally exhausted, so even he has to use it sparingly.

        So it’s not like the Kage Bunshin isn’t allowed to be taught to/learned by everyone, period, I think. I think it’s just “Forbidden” as in “only under the right circumstances” or something like that.

        So I think it’s a bit of a mixed bag, but still no less dangerous either way; some simply being horrendous (Edo Tensei), others being extremely destructive, and others being too self-destructive (Kage Bunshin, Shiki Fujin, etc). Heck, given time, I’m sure the Rasenshuriken would’ve been added to the list given how even Naruto risked losing his shinobi career due to his chakra coils being damaged beyond repair at a molecular level to the point where even Kurama’s chakra couldn’t do anything.

        • June 27, 2012 at 9:43 pmTOP2NE1

          Morals or not, they had to have had insight for a situation where forbidden techniques like Edo Tensei are used against them. To not expect enemies to use those techniques or develop procedures against them seems more than just arrogant. It’s rather dumb. Heck for some reason they even keep that scroll of forbidden stuff on hand. If they really wanted to disparage its use then the scroll should be burned. For what purposes do they archive it? So an enemy can steal it? Or are they just keeping it for the sake of keeping it, in the hopes that they’ll be useful some day? If so, then let higher level, loyal ninja study and assimilate them. Learn to prioritize Konoha and pick a route because middle ground doesn’t work in this situation.

          And Konoha let Danzo run amok letting him basically effect a genocide rather than just ousting the dissenters, yet there are qualms against something like resurrecting a savior when in dire need? Doesn’t make sense to me.

          As for techniques just taxing to the body, why isn’t the study of the eight gates a forbidden technique then? That isn’t just taxing, the technique is actually characterized by destroying the body. Harm to the user doesn’t seem like an adequate reason to suspend a technique. Pretty much most high level techniques are shown to be extremely exhausting in the series. Naruto goes around using shadow clones all the time to great effect. Can’t they see the benefit of something like this. Why not take aptitude tests or something, letting those who can handle techniques actually use those techniques instead of outright banning their uses. Or even let ninja use self destructing techniques when near death. If a ninja is about to die anyway, why not go out with a bang? The underutilization seems rather silly. But I guess Konoha is no stranger to insufficiency. The most recent example being the assassination of Kabuto. Not even bothering to affirm his death and then subsequently allowing him to live in the village for who knows how many years. Not to mention the needlessly elaborate assassination plan in the first place.

          I’ll buy stuff like Edo Tensei being forbidden, but not something as innocuous as shadow clones when stuff like the eight gates are out there. In the end I’ve pretty much learned that the more Uchiha, the more quandaries the series seems to give me. The less Uchiha, the less I seem to question the series’s internal logic.

        • June 28, 2012 at 11:16 amHalfDemonInuyasha

          Well, we’ve seen the arrogance quite a bit at times, with the “Konoha is the strongest village” thinking. Not to mention all the powerful clans and Kekkei Genkai they have. That coupled with having won 2 previous wars, having records of the most powerful Kage and that’s just a recipe for thoughts of invincibility.

          So who knows what goes on…probably not seen as important enough to go into detail or something ~_~ It’s what annoys me about things like this. It may be fantasy, but I still want details on things and not just a “because it’s so” excuse.

          And I’m pretty sure it’s all about appearances. While the public face is all sunshine and rainbows (Hiruzen) for the public eye to propagate their status as “the best” in some way, they let others do the dirty work behind the scenes (Danzo). But, as we saw, they’re no different than any other village when it all comes down to it. The whole “Will of Fire” spout is really no different than simple determination to protect one’s home and loved ones, even at the cost of their life; something that pretty much every other village would do. Konoha just tries to make itself look special, being the first major village and all the aforementioned reasons.

          And the Eight Gates IS a Kinjutsu (briefly mentioned during the Chunin Exam Arc). It’s why only Lee, who has undergone very similar training conditions as Gai for several years, has been shown to be able to use them besides Gai himself (canonically anyway), but it’s another case of “just because you can doesn’t mean you should”, hence why you don’t see either of them busting them out every battle they’re in and only if it’s really needed.

          Naruto’s only able to use Kage Bunshin constantly because of the combination of his own large chakra reserves and the MASSIVE quantity of Kurama’s chakra (who is the strongest mass of chakra of the Jubi’s split portions after all, even at only half of it; Yang Chakra or something). If he were a normal shinobi, he sure wouldn’t be spamming out so many constantly, I’m sure.

        • June 28, 2012 at 5:01 pmTOP2NE1

          Ha thanks, didn’t remember that point about the eight gates. Must’ve been mentioned passingly in like a single line. But even if it were, it doesn’t change the fact that people like Gai use it to great effect. He’s one of the Leaf’s best ninja, so it just begs the question that what would happen if the eight gates were unbanned and taught to ardent young ninja with an affinity for taijutsu. For all the Leaf knows, there are kids (like Rock Lee) or even adults who could eventually use the eight gates technique just as well or even better than Gai. But the village will never know because they’re never going to be given the chance. What makes Gai so different? Let those who can use a technique well use the technique.

          Same goes with Naruto. While certainly all people won’t have a tailed beast to buffer their chakra, there’s still to bound to be people with family blood lines or the individually gifted with large chakra amounts. So the same thing with Gai, let those who can use it use it. And if I recall correctly Naruto learned it just by looking the scroll over a bit. He learned the ultra forbidden technique so easily and he was just a kid. (Makes you wonder what super loyal and capable ninja could learn and apply) That can’t be the only kinjutsu in the scroll that was banned for excess chakra usage. Why not let Naruto read the rest of those to help save the village? If they shrug off him learning one technique then a few more wouldn’t hurt. In fact it would help a lot.

          As for keeping up appearances… ignoring Danzo, they’re still pretty shoddy with that to. For example take the jump from genin to chunin. It goes from innocuous basic jutsu tests to straight up deadly examinations. The chunin exams, a public and spectated event, are way more barbaric and detrimental than some lousy exhausting techniques. Gaara straight up brutally murdered three rain ninja and the Leaf doesn’t bat an eye. On the other hand shadow clones and gates are frowned upon? Naruto, Gai, and Rock Lee (I think Rock Lee’s injury mostly stemmed from Gaara) recover from their techniques but the death of ninja is eternal. (Or at least it used to be. Damn you Edo Tensei. And damn you Madara especially. Just die and let the story progress why don’t you?) It’s like pulling up sprouts. We’ll never get to how well they grow or how useful they’ll be later in life. And they’re allowed to stop murders in the tournament, but nobody cares about what happens in the forest? Where’s the continuity in that?

          Can you imagine if the story were told from the Rain Village’s point of view? “Boom! Shikamaru, Ino, and Choji died! Oh well, better just accept it!” Granted, I really liked the chunin exams, but it some stuff still doesn’t sit well with me. Entering a deadly contest? Sure, have at it! Learning a dangerous technique? Whoah, kid you can’t do that! I mean even upon becoming chunin they’re not expected to immediately go on deadly missions. So what’s up with the chunin exams? Even to teach the kids to harsh reality of the ninja world doesn’t quite hold up. There’s no reason to put premature ninja at life-threatening risk, much less allowing your future ninja to die meaninglessly.

          And I’m with you on pondering stuff like this. Yeah they’re probably not meant examined, but hell they still annoy me too sometimes. I want to know why things are they way they are. Or at least I want to know the reason for some of the more nonsensical things.

        • June 28, 2012 at 8:35 pmHalfDemonInuyasha

          I’m sure there are a number of (Konoha) shinobi who can use it. Either they choose not to because they don’t want to risk the chakra slicing or, more likely, it’s to make Naruto look more “unique” to the readers, lol. If everyone who could went around using the Kage Bunshin (even if not to the extent Naruto did), well, one of Naruto’s key jutsu wouldn’t be so “special” anymore, lol.

          As for the Chunin Exams, I’d say that’s not really the fault of Konoha in general as I’m sure that the Chunin Exams have been made the way they are since they were first implemented. While it may differ from village to village in terms of just what the events consist of, I’d say the blame for Konoha falls onto its stagnated practices for their Genin during peacetime. While the older shinobi may keep up their training and abilities, the Genin, as children they still are despite their pledging to be seen as adults by becoming Genin, especially during peacetime, don’t really see it as THAT serious (look at many of the fangirls or lazier kids) unless they’re smart/serious enough about it from the start (which most probably aren’t).

          Otherwise, as we saw, they seem to be handled quite lightly overall and not exactly pushed hard to become so much better, much less in less than a year’s time. (Like Kakashi pretty much doing crap to REALLY train Team Seven; didn’t even start teaching them Tree Walking until the MIDDLE of a C RANK mission.) As we know, Gai held back his team from going in the first year simply because he wanted to improve them because he knew how the Chunin Exams could be, especially on rookie Genin. Heck, Iruka strongly advised letting Team Seven taking a C Rank mission because he KNEW they weren’t truly ready for such a thing. It may have come off to Kakashi as simply being overprotective of them as a former teacher, but Iruka also knew them far better than Kakashi did, IMO, and could clearly tell by their attitudes that they weren’t ready.

          As you mentioned, it’s VERY brutal compared to the kid gloves the main teams have been constantly treated with by their teachers (the very fact that a lot of teams that participate already have a year or more of training and actual field experience, including killing), and I’d also guess their entering was more of a(n idiotic) political maneuver on Konoha’s part, given over half of them were children of major Konoha Clan Heads (Shikamaru, Ino, Chouji, Hinata, Kiba, Shino) as well as Sasuke being the “last Uchiha”. Not to mention their own pride as a sensei, so once one nominated their team, the others probably didn’t want themselves or their team to look “weak” by using common sense and withholding them from entering. (And very few fanfics I’ve read have ever taken that route.)

          Team Seven was really the WORST team to let participate in the Chunin Exams of the 4 main teams; their teamwork was non-existent (only seemed to spring in life-or-death situations), they hardly improved at all from when they graduated, each one of them clearly lacks the capabilities of being a Chunin; Sakura was still a weakass fangirl, Sasuke was, and still is, Mr. Arrogant-Ego-Power, and Naruto (still) lacks the mental qualities. Heck, Sasuke only got past his first match because of using a move based on copying Lee and Naruto only got by his first match because of A FART when both of them otherwise would’ve lost. And god, Sakura and Ino resorted to simply brawling like two little kids in a sandbox, just wailing on eachother with their fists.

          If anything, considering some of the (initial) performances several of them put on, I’d say it HURT Konoha’s image more than helped because it simply showed how…pathetic several of them were…

        • June 29, 2012 at 12:41 amTOP2NE1

          Lol great point, you’re right. It pretty much boils down to differentiation. While nonsensical for the village, it sure does make storytelling easier for Kishimoto.

          And you pretty much summed up the Leaf’s stance too haha. They’re arbitrarily one-sided and short sighted in a lot of their policies and wildly inconsistent with their teachers. If the Leaf were as prestigious and well-disciplined as their pride and self image pretend to be, then they’d be loads more efficient. These deficiencies weren’t immediately obvious to me in the beginning but they become more and more apparent as the story goes on. The way that Konoha got rocked by Pein and then subsequently saved by him? (And I initially actually sort of liked the Pein arc despite some silly moments. Although my opinion quickly turned sour after the mass resurrection. I mean how unbelievably lucky were they? Kishimoto went ahead and screwed what could have been a powerful and moving learning experience for Naruto. Not to mention completely ignoring Hinata’s confession.) Then there’s the recent war where ninja were literally dying just to protect Naruto’s clones. Not even Naruto, but his clones. I mean I know he’s supposed to be super strong and all, but just how sad is that?

          Also I know they’re all fodder but Kishimoto missed out on a great opportunity to showcase some interesting techniques that he never got to actually put in the story too. Sure they’d still be nameless ninja, but why not use the war as an excuse to show interesting character designs and jutsu. They didn’t have to win or be overpowered, but giving them some acknowledgement would have been awesome. It would have reinforced the fact that Naruto’s world is much bigger than just its main characters, and all of those nameless fodder have lives too, existing in the backgrounds but ultimately supporting the ninja nations and their respective families etc. Some of them could have even been shown using watered down versions of the shadow clone or gates. It goes back to what you mentioned about differentiating the characters. Because here, he wouldn’t have to juggle them with the main characters. It seemed like a chance for Kishimoto to be really imaginative, but it was sort of wasted.

          Yeah the more the story goes on, the more I think that Kishimoto really is just growing tired of the series. Ha good conversation, maybe I’ll reserve my judgement for a few more chapters though. But then again trend isn’t that promising, or at least not to me.

        • June 29, 2012 at 10:36 pmHalfDemonInuyasha

          I also bring up in discussions on how over-emphasized teamwork is by Konoha, While teamwork is definitely a good thing to have, I constantly felt that Konoha always took it too far to the point where it’s more restrictive than helpful.

          Just look at the teams of the main characters after all; they were made completely of members whose abilities are pretty much meant to be used for whatever the team was made for, but little else, thus leaving little to no room for them to do anything else, so if they ended up encountering enemies that their abilities don’t work well on, they’re screwed unless they’re with another team that functions better against those enemies. Can’t even imagine if they ended up separated or a member(s) got killed.

          Tenten was the major example of this during the Chunin Exams. Sure, with Neji and Lee by her side, she was very effective, but not only was she up against an opponent who could perfectly counter her strengths (Temari), but she had neither Neji nor Lee there to fight up close and distract her so Tenten could hit her with her weapons. Basically, with a bunch of Konoha’s teams, it’s almost like if you take out 1 member, you literally take away 1/3 of their strength and efficiency.

          Heck, besides the older Ino-Shika-Chou Trio, how many actual TEAMS are there noted throughout history, much less in Konoha? The Sannin. That’s all I recall. And really, it was more about their own individual power and abilities coupled with merely surviving against Hanzo that they’re so well-known and not their teamwork efficiency. It usually came down those individuals who happen to be more powerful all-rounders (Hashirama, Tobirama, Hiruzen, Minato, Kakashi, Itachi, etc). While being a total lone wolf isn’t good, neither is acting like teamwork is the ONLY way to fight.

    • June 27, 2012 at 4:41 pmRyuujinjakka

      Something i’ve been pondering about, Tobi ask Kabuto how to stop the Edo Tensei and this is after Kabuto showed Tobi of Madara body, (going a complete opposite direction which, can happen, perhaps Tobi just some outcast individual, me think that Tobi knew this would have happen and wanted to know a way to stop it – that would means perhaps Tobi and Madara not get along)

      At this point wouldn’t the smart tactic solution be in this situation is to retreat and regenerate lost chakra i think it still believable that they have ‘some chakra they are squeezing out’ but should be almost zero now

      Wouldn’t mind then see the confrontation between Tobi and Madara and see what they’re game plan is xD. Wishful thinking i guess, but i guess just want to point out this is day 2 of the 4th ninja world!!! feels like everything going to end by day 2, what do you think???

    • June 27, 2012 at 6:14 pmWyatt Derp

      I fully expected Madara to do something along these lines. His fight has thus far been cool but he hasn’t actually done anything impactful to the situation as of yet and I couldn’t imagine an enemy of his calibre just going away before either dropping some massive knowledge and/or killing someone important.

    • June 27, 2012 at 7:49 pmSOSAnimeBoy

      More than the chapter. I was fascinated with the color insert in Mangastream’s scan.

      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v153/SOSAnimeBoy/Misc%20Forums/4c4ed762ef6ae4fc15feccf3965ee384.jpg

      As a NaruxHina fan, I’m curious why this is drawn with Hinata and Naruto wearing their jackets the same way, despite it being so out of character for Hinata. Not that I’m complaining (nosebleeds)…

      • June 27, 2012 at 7:52 pmSOSAnimeBoy

        Speaking of being out of character, Ino is dressed very conservatively in this. WTF!

      • June 27, 2012 at 8:14 pmJustinnnnnn

        Just in case you didn’t know what the poster was about, it’s promo art for Naruto’s next big movie. Kishimoto is the movie’s writer I think, or at least he’s having a huge role in the production.

        You can watch the 20 secs trailer in Youtube…Interesting stuff =) ! I think it’ll be a what-if storyline, a parallel universe, maybe caused by everyone(or just Naruto) falling under Tobi’s illusion. Yeah, a ‘it was all a dream’ scenario. That’d explain everyone being so out of character.

        But hey, if the movie really includes all those characters (or just Minato and Kushina please), I don’t care if it’s all an illusion. It’d be awesome!

      • June 27, 2012 at 10:26 pmTOP2NE1

        This movie looks infinitely more interesting than the most recent chapters. It looks less needlessly cryptic and vapidly poignant, and instead much more fun. All the characters being flipped around should be really enjoyable. Best of all it’s free from that suffocating, Uchicha-centric smog pervading the series.

    • June 28, 2012 at 12:29 amgawrshness

      AHA! Saw it coming, seriously man him just going poof with a single remote technique like being de-summoned just didn’t feel right. Now Madara’s staying and he’s gonna kick some serious amount of butt!

    • June 28, 2012 at 4:36 amMadara

      Madara: I have unlimited chakra now? I never even noticed.

    • June 28, 2012 at 8:50 amLK

      Naruto won’t die, he will be Hokage. That was foretold first chapter. Sasuke will fight Madara and Tobi with Naruto, ala Vegeta and Goku.

    • June 28, 2012 at 10:35 amrandom viewer

      I think Sausuke should have just said “I love you brother” there but I guess he’ll save it for Naruto. =P
      Yes I was waiting for that Tsunade and Dan reunion moment. Just perfect.
      I would have thought that Madara would resummon Susanoo or something afterwards.
      Next week’s episode will probably have Naruto’s fight.

    • June 28, 2012 at 11:54 amjesuispotato

      What a nice resolution,
      I do think that Tsunade will (unfortunately) be a goner in this war… I’ve got my bets on Gaara and Mizukage to survive, and still wondering about Raikage and Tsuchikage… If one of them (or both) died I could see the sense in it (if Raikage died we could see Bee going wild and that could be entertaining, tho I’m not sure whom he would be fighting with, since Sasuke facing Madara is the best turn of events), but I can also see sense in both surviving (the Tsuchikage for a more comedic outcome, for the fact that the old bastard just won’t die).
      The series is reaching it’s end, but I get the cringing feeling that we’ve got ourselves another year or year and a half (hopefully not two years) to see it through its end.

    • June 28, 2012 at 11:41 pmronri

      Would be funny to see if it were Kabuto who stopped Madara. A long shot you say? Yes, yet it is still plausible within the realm of the current storyline.

    • June 29, 2012 at 4:00 amleaf ivy

      I so waited for this :D. I guess the only one who could go up against Madara at this point would be naruto …. he inherited the power of the sage of the six paths …. no not the rinnegan but he sealingpower of his clan… he already sealed away kyubi with one of the six paths when taking control of his chakra earlier … and is was much implied in the flashbacks of the tailed beasts that he is something like the reincarnation of the sage of the sixpaths. Maybe sasuke could play a role too, but i´m not sure if he could go up against a madara here, since he his far more developed with his doujutsu, and well, madara now with unlimited chakra etc. thats really bad ö.-.

      But maybe now we could finally get a clue who Tobi is since the real Madara will stay for a while :D. I just so laughed when Tobi cursed along his way when he saw the revived Madara, lol. Something like : “F*ck you Kabuto, this was my role :(” … poor tobi *hehe*