Sorry for being late with this editorial. It’s the end of the school year, so that means finals to grade, report cards to tabulate, classrooms to clean out, and if you think teachers drink heavily DURING the school year, you should see what we do to celebrate the end of it!



When tragedy strikes, most people will try to find a scapegoat; it’s human nature to point a finger and blame someone or something, rather than chalk it up to chance or luck (even saying it’s “fate” or “God’s will” is giving a reason for why misfortune occurs). But when other people with specific agendas (i.e. politicians, and sometimes a lawyer) shift the focus of blame to a particular entity YOU like or are a fan of, then problems arise.

Movies, video games, and anime have been targeted as the reasons for school shootings, the corruption of youth, and even public massacres, like the recent one in Akihabara, and when such atrocities happen, many FANS who enjoy the unjustly accused medium of entertainment rise up in its defense, crying out, “You don’t know what you’re talking about. There’s no evidence that watching something violent will make you violent! Don’t take away our entertainment, because some idiot who likes the same things we do did something stupid and tragic.”

What I have a problem with is that these FANS only care about losing their precious entertainment, instead of examining and acknowledging the individual behind the tragedy and the actions needed to be done in order to maintain a smoothly running and orderly society.

I first read about real-life Death Notes 3 years ago, when schools in China were banning the manga due to the implications of teenaged students writing down names of people in a notebook designed to look like the titular piece of stationary as some sort of immature adolescent stress relief, since said action gives them a pretense that they had the power make people die. At the time, there was a lot of outrage among fans and FANS over the ban, and I must say that I agree with said righteous indignation (banning books is never a good thing – at least the U.S. got past all that after some idiot tried to ban Huckleberry Finn for historically and accurately containing the word “nigger”).

3 years later, and with a dub version of Death Note airing in the U.S., SEVERAL similar events are happening here, which (I must say as an aside) is a powerful testament to how awesome the Death Note series is, with its challenging morals and themes that connect enough with today’s youth to make them take action. I mean, if I had such power to influence young people, I would make a show about studying hard and respecting your elders, but that’s just me (although, I have to admit that it has to be a really slow news day to report on how everything has returned to normal after a real-life Death Note incident).

What surprised me, though, considering that there was no report on any of the U.S. schools banning the manga (just that the students who made the Death Notes were being punished, suspended, and/or expelled), was that some reactions defended the students. Some argued that the “kids didn’t know any better,” while others reasoned, “it’s a good way for them to relieve their stress. Would you rather them actually go and kill the people they wrote down in their Death Notes?” However, all defensive arguments could be summed up in, “It’s fictional and not real. What’s the big deal?”



Death Note and Jigoku Shoujo have a lot in common…

Any child psychologist will tell you that playing out one’s imagination is an important part of childhood. The ability to act out a fantasy world either originally concocted or based on something in reality is crucial in helping a human being develop into a fully-functioning, socially well-adjusted adult. The problem is that (like anything) this idea can be abused, and such abuse can easily intersect with anime, known for its fantastic fictional settings that draw many FANS to act them out in the real world.

One type of this abuse involves a child acting out something that is considered inappropriate. It can be funny when a child unwittingly does something not befitting their age. However, children do not necessarily understand the implications and severity of their words or actions, and as such, they may engage in an activity that can be considered morally and/or socially unacceptable (you have to wait until 1:40 in that video), if not just downright offensive.



Do these girls REALLY understand what they look like?

The problem is further exacerbated when a child BELIEVES they understand the consequences of what they are doing, but in actuality, being a child, they do not. I could go into a spiel about the desensitization of sex, violence, and death in the modern age, but instead, I’ll simply point out that kids (and especially teenagers) often just don’t know any better. Before Death Note was even an idea in Tsugumi Ohba’s head, school children have been writing death threats in schools in one manner or another (it’s rather ironic that only in today’s entertainment-fueled media that such events make the news). After all, it’s human nature to wish ill on one’s enemies, and following that thought, many children wish death on those they hate, because “there is nothing more pure, honest, and cruel than a child” (by some wise man). Again, they don’t know any better, which is precisely why we educate them:
“No, sweetie, you don’t pick your nose in public.”
“No, honey, you don’t push people who are waiting in front of you in line.”
“No, dear, you don’t write down the names of people you want dead.”

This effectively counters the defense of “oh they don’t know what they’re doing – they don’t know what it REALLY means to wish someone dead – just let them be – they’re just kids.” After all, if we let such children grow up trivializing death, they will not be socially well-adjusted. On the other hand, I will grant you that maybe some young people DO know the severity of their desires, but that’s all the more reason to correct them! Either of these scenarios potentially results in a society full of impulsive individuals who take brash action at the emotional drop of a hat:
“You short-changed me.”
“Sorry, sir, let me…”
“Die!” *BANG*

Do we really want people growing up with the notion that it’s okay to want to kill anyone they hate or even dislike?

Now, there’s nothing wrong with emotionally venting out one’s frustrations at life (many would argue it’s better than keeping it all bottled in). However, a certain level of mature discretion is necessary in order to remain perceived as some one who is just pissed off, as opposed to someone who is about to commit a crime. Imagine if someone came up to you and said in hushed tones, “I hate our boss,” and compare that to if said disgruntled employee cried out, “I FUCKING HOPE HE FUCKING DIES!!!” while slamming his fist into the wall. I would wager you’d feel a bit more uncomfortable with the latter scenario. Even if you don’t believe that this postman-wannabe would actually go through with it, there are specific socially accepted ways in which someone is allowed to express their rage (case in point, take the second scenario, except this time the person is completely plastered with alcohol – MOST people would be more understanding then…except the boss).



Arima from Kare Kano: “I am in emo angst, because I keep all my feelings bottled in…”

What is specifically ironic and rather contradictory about the defense that some young people are “mature” enough to understand what it means to write a Death Note (even to point of acknowledging that it’s merely a way for them to vent their frustrations as opposed to actually carrying out any action) is that typically, they aren’t “mature” or “smart” enough to go about it so that they’re not caught. If you hate someone so much that you need to wish them dead IN WRITING, then have some common sense and put that stuff in a non-descript diary with a lock or something so that no one will be able to read it. Brandishing a black notebook with the words “Death Note” emblazoned on the front is just asking to have an eye-brow raised. It’s stupid to think that SOMEONE won’t recognize the cultural icon and what it stands for. And let’s not kid ourselves: writing a Death Note is very much like writing a death threat; no one in their right mind would not want to find out the reasons for their name (or the names of their children) being written down in such a manner.

“But it’s just playing out some fantasy! The students know it’s not real, so it’s not really a death threat.”

For a mature individual (even, dare I say, an adult), acting out anime or anything fictional falls on wide spectrum from “you must live in your parent’s basement” amusing to downright grisly and disturbing. Cosplay and cosplay skits are probably the most socially acceptable forms of acting out anime, but who hasn’t cosplayed and felt the bewildered if not critical stares of “normal” people? When someone engages in an imaginary activity that involves HARM on someone else (with the exception of all parties being aware and/or fully participating in said imaginary harm), then we’ve crossed the threshold of propriety. Can you really imagine two fans of anime being okay with one of them writing the name of the other in a Death Note?

Fan #1: Subs are the best!
Fan #2: Sorry, but I like dubs better.
Fan #1: That’s it! I’m SOOOO writing your name in my Death Note!
Fan #2: Hahah! That’s funny.
*Fan #1 pulls out his Death Note*
Fan #2: Uh…you actually have a Death Note? Um….what are you doing?
Fan #1: (mutters to self as writing) …dies by choking on Pocky…



What if someone acts out Higurashi no Naku Koro ni?

The worst part of people who act out anime too far beyond the borders of acceptability is that they ruin it for the rest of us. This can be as simple as bad cosplay, where all that happens is the blinding of anime fans, but there are so many agendas out there with opportunistic politicians ready to take up a cause and blame the whole of society’s problems on one single thing. I mean it only took one man to change the Japanese meaning of the word “otaku” from just a socially awkward and introverted hobby enthusiast to a dangerous and deranged deviant. As mentioned earlier, the Chinese school ban of the Death Note manga was not the best response, but it’s perfectly understandable why they would implement such an initiative in order to help students and faculty who were disturbed by the real-life Death Notes feel more secure. And the U.S. punishment (suspension/expulsion) of students who wrote real-life Death Notes is unquestionably justified – undesirable actions require consequences in order to correct and educate. You’re not going to stop such reactions, so why do something to generate them in the first place? I guess some FANS really need an outlet for their emotions by acting out some anime, but if this comes at the expense of having anime fall under even heavier political and social scrutiny, I find such an act incredibly selfish.

STORY TIME!

I was on staff at an anime convention, and around 2 AM, I was roaming the halls near the video games room. A rather large fellow was walking around with no shirt on, having a grand old time, smiling and posing for pictures with people touching and handling his “man-boobs.” In addition, he had terrible body acne, which is just unfortunate, but people did not need to be forced to see that. Another staff member and I looked at each other, and I decided to go over there to ask FTG (Fat Topless Guy) to put on his shirt.

FTG: “I’m security, it’s cool.”
Me: “Can I see your badge?”
*with a scoff and an arrogant face of “I told you so” he showed me his security badge*
Me: “Well, I’m pretty sure you’re not wearing cosplay, and there’s probably a rule somewhere anyway saying people can’t be topless.”
FTG: “Show me the rule.”
Me: “I’ll do something better. Let’s both go to the Head of Security. I’m sure you know him, since you work for him. We’ll ask him if it’s okay to go around the convention topless.”
FTG: “Fine, ruin my fun.” *puts the shirt back on*

Fun at the expense of others is not fun.

– Natron-e?
who makes fun of his students performing Naruto moves in the classroom

113 Comments

  1. Amazing article… it’s nice to see insightful, intelligent blog entries still exist on the internet. My hat is off to you, sir.

    And I was more than amused at some of those videos 😛

    PhantomX
  2. I was just about to quickly write “Too long, didn’t read” but then I paused and started reading, very well thought out article my friend. I fully agree with you that the this “phenomenon” shall I call it, is simply another way of teenagers expressing themselves by rebelling to conformity. Some people go crazy at the sight of a rock star and rush for signatures, others glee over new features in software, while some drool over engine sizes in new cars, in our ‘community’ youngsters look to fictional characters they see in Anime, and hence begins the age old act of imitation – It’s cool to do what the character does. I don’t believe there is any real ill-will intended in any of it, it’s just something they find enjoyable to do by acting out childhood fantasies.

    There will always be the odd (asshole) person who will shout and say that a certain medium is causing violence, I’m a huge fan of video games and anime, and both mediums have their fair share of violence and enemies who oppose them, these enemies either fabricate or twist certain happenings to their favour, hell the biggest example I can think of at the moment is Jack Thompson vs The Gaming Industry. It’s not a culture thing that is limited to a single country, it’s an aspect of humanity and I believe it boils down to jealousy or misplaced anger.

    There is no real conclusion to what I’m trying to say, I just hope I made myself understandable ~ Thanks again for the great article.

    P.S.:
    “Fan #1: Subs are the best!
    Fan #2: Sorry, but I like dubs better.
    Fan #1: That’s it! I’m SOOOO writing your name in my Death Note!
    Fan #2: Hahah! That’s funny.
    *Fan #1 pulls out his Death Note*
    Fan #2: Uh…you actually have a Death Note? Um….what are you doing?
    Fan #1: (mutters to self as writing) …dies by choking on Pocky… ”

    Thanks for the chuckle. 😀

    Ashan
  3. yes, those little girls don’t know what they are doing.
    so it’s their parents responsibility to prevent them from doing it.
    it’s not the girls fault.
    those parents are sick! what kind of parent would let their kid go on tv like that??

    Moor
  4. My initial thoughts on this is that its society itself which is to blame as to the media we are watching and etc. I myself study communications and history in university. And as it is so far, there has been studies which say that media itself has little to no impact on what people do in real life. That said, it is easy for why people see it the way they do now. From what I know, people who already have thoughts such as suicide, mass murder and so forth, have these ideas way before media introduced them to the idea. Media itself simply reinforces what is already there and is in no way telling them to act it out.

    So if something is to blame, we ought to blame the society which we are degrading.

    Nexitus
  5. While you put up a intelligent argument, your excessive usage of profanity and obvious bias degrades this argument into a catalyst for a flame war. You must understand that it is human nature to place blame on something else rather than oneself for put youself in the parents shoes if you son/daughter did something that heinous it couldn’t have been from your great parenting or lack of parenting but from the internet, television, or video games. Let face it most human see only the good qualities of themself and believe that they are always correct and are never wrong, it is also human nature to degrade an specific ethic group so that they wouldn’t be consider human anymore and thus easier to insult example are the term “gook, and sand nigger’ which is precisely what you doing to those who proclaim to be “otakus” of course they are the negative stereotype of an anime fan,but show some respect and stop taking anime so seriously it is a form of entertainment not something to start a crusade to convert all human into anime fans. Since I’m pretty sure that it is not the intent anime directors. Also if you were in a high ranking position in government would you reveal to the public that your education system is wrong or that people aren’t receiving the care they need and thus become a psycho because of the government.Obviously they wouldn’t and thus take a scapegoat. This is a repeating cycle in the history of mankind and will continue to be.

    Unknown
  6. Jeez, what is this world coming to?

    I like Japanese culture but this is too brutal to swallow, and there are people who are still relatively sane who actually knows whats right and wrong.

    If manga/anime is what making society tick, I think its best if they were novel orientated( though I have no say in this since I am not a heavy reader).

    Karis
  7. Well the thing is although children are taught not to do some things children still do it. However, usually, when children do bad things, they know without being told that it was wrong and feels sorry for doing it. So my belief is that most people do know to a degree what is right and wrong, but there are always a very small minority that do not and cause problems. If my previous statement was false, then there would be no concept of law as stealing is a much easier method to getting rich than working. In addition, as one gets older, one learns more rules on what is acceptable and what is not (not always the case). So therefore, although most people know that a show like Death Note is purely hypothetical and fictional, there are some people who do not. Its these kinds of people who, maybe haven’t matured, takes anime and such too seriously or are not normal, that lead to these kinds of problems. And the thing is society probably has an influence on matters such as these. Because of the influence caused by society, things that were never done in the past are being done now. Although society isn’t completely at fault (eg bad parenting), to say society has no part is also not true. And that concludes my 2 cents.

    Som1
  8. quote: What if someone acts out Higurashi no Naku Koro ni?

    LOL! That would be funny…then violent, and would probably end bad.

    Anyway, I also thank you for that youtube video showing teenagers hit a fire melon…ROFL at it lol

    Now…to be serious, I completely agree with you. China was ok with banning the manga.

    But to be honest, I do believe that teenagers know what they are doing. Let’s say +14, since I’m 14 and know very well what I do and what I don’t do, and the consequences of my acts 😛

    One last thing. The video of the young girls dancing…made me feel bad. The world is screwed lol. THAT was just wrong…the girls dancing like that at that age, simply wrong…

    sacchi
  9. @ Unknown
    Your arguments have a couple faults to them. For one, although it is natural for people to place blame on others, people still feel guilty (usually) for doing that and blaming others. Secondly, to blame only society is also rather faulty as if society had that much influence, then I by logic should be killing a lot of people right now. However, as I am not (or am I? XD), your argument that its “from the internet, television, or video games.” is flawed. This is also seen by the fact that in bad neighborhoods, there are more crimes. However, lots of people who play games like GTA 4 are not bad people.

    Som1
  10. Good article although I think that people do have the right to express their anger or any other extreme emotion in any way they want (of course as long as it doesntharm another person in any way), otherwise it just becomes something evenbigger, a little uniteresting something can turn into a psychosis if not released or something dangerous, also the stuff about the kids trends I think thats more parents fault that the society and trends at large, but that was just my opinion,excellent article just wanted to say that.

    pízzapicante27
  11. @Unknown
    Of course, I understand that it’s human nature to place blame on others before oneself (didn’t I write that in my first sentence of the editorial?). However, I take concern over your fatalistic view that “This is a repeating cycle in the history of mankind and will continue to be.”

    Part of what I gained from “All I Need To Know In Life I Learned From Star Trek” included the idea that humanity can reflect, be introspective and critical of itself, and evolve. But, perhaps that is naive and too optimistic, so you’re right…humanity sucks, so I should stop complaining that it sucks and let it keep sucking.

    Oh, and I’m sorry if you found the “excessive profanity” distasteful, even though _I_ personally wasn’t cussing anyone out in particular – I was merely being emphatic with a particular anecdote about a disgruntled employee. And, yes, I’m obviously biased. If I didn’t have bias and an opinion to share, that would probably make the editorial more boring than it already is…

    Natrone
  12. Great post as usual. I do agree that letting children watch controversial shows can be detrimental to their growth. I mean, who lets a kid watch death note? I understand that for us older people Death Note can be quite an interesting foray into human psycho and all but give that to a kid and he may turn into a serial killer. What we should effectively do is filter out the stuff we don’t want our kids watching while watching those shows ourselves with caution. After all, anime can leave big impressions.

    Oh, and acting out higurashi would be a no-no. The last thing the media needs is more bad publicity.

    Ez
  13. @Natrone I don’t have anyuthing against you, but I believe that any type of debate should be as impartial as humanly possible so that the reader can form their own opinion instead of having even if not intentional opinion force upon them. Also I am not as optimistic as you as you already guess, but your editorial are quite informative I just hope that you would try to be more impartial in you next ones.

    @Som1 If you didn’t notice in that i was being sarcastic at the from the internet, television, or video games then I am sorry that you took that part seriously beside it’s kind of hard to portary sarcasm on the internet

    Unknown
  14. Very interesting article, Natrone! Society likes to blame whatever’s convenient on society’s ills, whether it’s alcohol (Prohibition, anyone?), comic books, rock and roll, death metal, rap/hip-hop, video games, manga/anime, the list goes on and on. So whatever happened to personal responsibility? Or parental accountability? Moms and dads parking their kids in front of the idiot box, or not taking the time to supervise and shield them from whatever’s out there on the Interwebz (what parents let their 12 year old stay up late to watch Death Note on Adult Swim – it’s called Adult Swim for a reason maybe? – unless he’s downloading them from torrents?).

    And those loli’s are just as bad as the West and the whole Jean-Bene Ramsey “talent” competitions and the Hannah Montana era of Disney crap that’s being churned out these days (only difference is, Disney markets directly to kids while decidedly adult anime should be just that, for adults only; kids can keep on watching their Pokemonz if they want). I’m reminded of the Dave Chappelle skit; “Excuse me, just because I’m dressed as a police officer, doesn’t mean I can stop crime!” Really, what goes through parents’ heads when they let their girls dress up in little-miss-tramp-stamp outfits (or as a co-worker puts it, “git-’em gurl outfits”)?

    I do agree that FAN knee-jerk reactions can be just as bad as the media-hating witch-hunters’; but it’s human to be selfish and wanting to preserve what makes us happy. It’s no different than gun nuts wanting to protect their right to bear arms, or video gamers wanting to kill virtual prison inmates with rusty sporks on their consoles. It’s rarely out of any sense of altruism that FANS rush to defend their medium when a tragedy strikes shedding a bad light on our pastime. “Don’t tread on me” (and that includes my hobbies), and all that.

    KaminaLives
  15. I have nothing to say against your arguements, maybe because i am half asleep. But what you say is well thought out and have great sources as examples. I totally forgot what i was about to say, oh yes i remember. You sir have a way to sway a crowd if you were telling a speech.

    tPhan
  16. “deviants” will occur as it is unavoidable. Didn’t someone bomb the recruitment center in NYC because he wasn’t happy with the Iraq War? So what, they’re going to end the war? Or perhaps ban news channels and newspapers? No. it’s absolutely ridiculous to even consider banning games, movies and anime (remember Prohibition? Banning alcohol only increased drinking and violence). It’s true though that something has to be done to minimize incidents like Columbine or the death note thing but what can we really do? Not much as a whole… blame society or whoever but it’s absolutely difficult to detect and react to such individuals with disturbing thoughts. Even so, I refuse to have my fun taken away by some guy or girl who has taken it a little too far.

    Res
  17. I agree with much of your article, especially about children who act beyond their ages. However, I don’t feel that it’s selfish for a fan to focus more on defending his/her hobby (anime in this case) instead of someone like the Akihabara killer. Anime is something that the fan knows on a personal level, and he/she can’t find out more about the wayward killer unless the news feeds it him/her. It’s not to say that people who take hobbies too far are justified in their action. I just feel that people who go over the edge are bound to do so at some point. Even if one medium was blocked to them, something else would give them a justifiable reason to go ahead with violence. Unless humans are programmed like robots to do good and nothing else, there will always be a “rebel” against the rules of society.

    Also, the usage of violence in anime should not be an issue if parents or mentors have taught an individual how to handle it. There’s no way impressionable kids will be able to get a hold of the material if the guardians watch what they buy, block certain TV stations or internet sites, and keep a network with the parents of your children’s friends. That being said, it’s still necessary to DISCUSS issues with your children rather than hide the problem around corners in the hopes that it’ll never be found. Is it alright to feel a thrill when Light lays down the judgment hammer on someone? Yes. Should that give you the notion that taking fiction into reality will work just as well for you? No. The only difference between shows that portrayed violence in the past and those of today is how much is allowed and the special effects that accompany. Bias can’t be given to the cookie cutter side of life when so many other places in the world don’t even get to experience that. Shows like Higurashi and Death Note are only one type of violent anime shows among others that show violence in a more serious light.

    Anyhow, ramble ramble ramble, I hope any of this makes any sense.

  18. I don’t about what you think but when this kind of tragedies happens my main problem isn’t that my favorite series are banned. My parents lost their trust to me and my common sense, they believe that I could easily grab a gun and shot the first person around. Perhaps this is the reason of why I got angry when a misguided person do something stupid, it doesn’t have to do with the banning (of course I don’t like it) but my main complain of people disapproving anime, manga, novels and music has to do with the fact that society in general starts to fear us and maybe one day that will end up hurting us. (I’m from Mexico and a couple of months ago some boys killed an “emo” guy just because of his hobbies and way of living) I don’t want to wake up one morning and find out that a friend or even an unknown otaku was killed by a person with wrong ideas.

    K.K.
  19. K.K. has a good point. I (and presumably many others) are less concerned with how the government/society/parents deal with the perceived problem material, but how others’ perception of us as a group changes, usually for the worse. “Does Death Note (or anime and video games in general) foster a deviant mentality and anti-social personality? Do authority figures need to step in?”

    From what I took from Natrone’s piece is that sometimes people do need instruction from others. A laissez faire attitude concerning the actions and imitations of kids is more ‘consent by omission’ than ‘mind your own business’. By examining the very phrase, “they don’t know any better,” we must query ourselves: Where or from whom will they learn better?

    Thus, I can see Natrone’s annoyance with FANs that dismiss outrageous cases of errant behavior and don’t pause to question if there really is a problem with X or Y hobby. The FAN reaction is then to make exemplar of other facets of society readily accepted, but perhaps just as broken, as Natrone’s various links illustrated.

    I guess what I’m getting at is that it’s everyone’s responsibility to ‘do good’ or ‘make better’ when necessary, rather than play the run-around game of point-the-finger.

    @Natrone: Again, an excellent read. The links you include give great support to your statements, rather than letting words alone do all the work. I wasn’t aware you were on ‘a schedule’ for writing there editorials. I’d much rather you take the time you need to formulate your essays and do the proper research. Then we can find a Happy Surprise for us on Random C, rather than anticipating some editorial or other and possibly be disappointed when it’s late. After all, this isn’t school!

    Kadian1364
  20. I suggested killing off half the population with an A-bomb on facebook to save humanity.Apparently, 1 in 3 people agree.Meh..they were probably just playing around but its probably true that alot of people in the world aren’t really doing much for the world(all the social ills and such that were mentioned)I agree blaming anime isn’t helping though.

  21. Well, what can you do other than to teach your own child well? If a child is wearing slutty clothings at a young age, we can use excuses like “they are still too young to understand it” or we can blame it on their role models (talking about singers, actors, etc.), people they hang out with or/and parents. If we talk to the parents, they don’t see the things we see. Instead of thinking “that is very bad for public moral”, the parents could be thinking “this is still okay and it’s what my child enjoys plus they are still young”. I really respect your point of view and I believe your right. As for the video and the picture about young girls dressed up all slutty, either the child will learn about it or the parents will do something about it later on. Either way, lets just do our best and not be extreme… Like those Death Note situations. I never thought Death Note had that much a of influence on the world. By the way, I hope that “Fat Topless Guy” gets fired. What he did was just disturbing -___-

    LazyBoy0902
  22. I think it doesn’t has to be anime’s fault,besides, other entertainment like movies & dramas can also corrupts youth’s mind. In these cases, i think parents should always stay cautious & concerned to the anime their children are watching. The meanings whether anime deliver can be positive or negative, depending on the viewer’s point,that’s why as an elder individual in society we have the responsibilty to teach the youth.=3

    moeou
  23. wow… grade schoolers learning to dance around a pole at an early age?? *eh emm…* only in japan!! sadly it’s passing to the U.S…

    um… magic missile??

    choking on pocky… that’s pretty harsh!! :d… lol

    lots of good points there natron-e, thanks!! :] (well not like GOOD good, like, good to point out… yeah)

    Nette
  24. its funny they blame games and now anime for crap that happens, and they never blame who is truly ones that should be blamed and that is the parents of these kid’s. They don’t blame parents cause a pissed off voter don’t vote for them, its a sad but true fact.

    yomi
  25. I tend to get faily pissy when i see things like games/anime/whatever get blamed for the latest murders or whatever else happens. for the record, i don’t play games but they get blamed often enough so i’ll keep using the example. My general train of though is that the people comitting the murders (or whatever it is) are screwed up to begin with. Watching anime/playing games may have given them ideas, but likely wasn’t the reason for them going out and doing whatever terrible thing they did. at this point i try to stop thinking about it, mostly because i can’t decide whether or not our hobbies should be restricted/banned because of the very slim chance that one sicko is going to do his nut in a way that resembles something they’ve seen. I don’t think it’s an easy question to answer, it’s likely there really isn’t an answer at all. i don’t have kids, and the worst thing i was exposed to growing up was teenage mutant ninja turtles (might explain my insatiable, neverending lust for pizza…) so i can’t claim to truly understand any perspective but my own. although i do think in general, society could do with a bit of de-pansy-ifying. maybe that might stop the blame game that seems to go in cycles with whatever the new hot button issue is.

    anyway, i think that about wraps up my somewhat incoherent post.

    ruffles
  26. the links included in the article gave me a grand total of 3 hours reading this article(including my visit to the wikipedia labyrinth)

    it is fun reading your articles and the links, not to mention that i share the same sentiment on most of your points 😛 keep em coming!

    p.s.
    i really facepalmed seeing that group vid with that “lightning bolt” guy. and that bad cosplay -__- im sorry..but that was just…bad. and disturbing.

    corroded
  27. stonepeters:

    Ive watched looney toons my entire child life, and not once did i think dropping an anvil on my brothers head Wouldnt kill him

    And I played Leisure Suite Larry (via), Pacman, Mario, Doom and Quake when I was 5-9years old but you won’t see me running around pubs eating pills and shrooms or running around shooting people with a shotgun or nailgun.

    Natrone:

    One type of this abuse involves a child acting out something that is considered inappropriate. It’s funny when a child unwittingly does something not befitting their age.

    Not befitting of their age? So you suggest that once they hit a certain age it becomes appropriate?
    Also, what’s appropriate varies wildly across history and culture. Personally I can’t see how people can be so emotional over a simple word, unless it’s directed at them in some negative manner.

    However, children do not necessarily understand the implications and severity of their words or actions, and as such, they may engage in an activity that can be considered morally and/or socially unacceptable (you have to wait until 1:40 in that video), if not just downright offensive.

    Of course they do, they know that they get attention and applause and make people smile and laugh, right?

    When tragedy strikes, most people will try to find a scapegoat; it’s human nature to point a finger and blame someone or something, rather than chalk it up to chance or luck (even saying it’s “fate” or “God’s will” is giving a reason for why misfortune occurs). But when other people with specific agendas (i.e. politicians, and sometimes a lawyer) shift the focus of blame to a particular entity YOU like or are a fan of, then problems arise.

    Of course there are those who get affected by it in some way. I remember when I were smaller, me and some friends used to watch Power Rangers. Then, when there were just a couple of episodes left until a major showdown, they suddenly stopped broadcasting it. Just because some random kid in some faraway country they called USA had punched others in the chest. (Punching the enemy in the chest was the only way to vanquish them in the show, if I remember correctly)
    Still, the show itself was most likely just a minuscule part of the problem and he probably wasn’t mentally stable. Though, there’s also the chance that they were just playfighting and that he got caught in the heat of the moment accidentally hitting his “adversary”.

    Other than the above I agree with you.

    Some stuff that might be relevant. I’m an atheist that has never gotten drunk and the only time I have taken something stronger than cider is when a classmate put vodka in my coca-cola. Also the only time I’ve directly hurt anyone is accidentally one time in kindergarten while playfighting. There’s also that time when someone ran into the swing while I was on it, but I’ve grown to realize that there really wasn’t anything I could have done.

    Mip
  28. The kids don’t understand the fact that writing things down on a Death Note won’t solve their problems. After all, it is fictional. (If they watch the whole anime or read the manga they would know that the rate of crime was not deterred…)

    There really is too much to know about the human psyche and too many random factors before we can stop acts of violence before they occur. Should we ban guns? But shouldn’t a knife be hurtful as well? Should we look at child development and control things (what should and shouldn’t be shown)?

    This is a really complicated topic and I really need to sleep. I do agree that when anime or manga, which is only supposed to be a harmless form of entertainment, obtains bad publicity due to selfish acts done by psychos (a very small minority) who couldn’t deal with life then it is unfair to the rest of us.

    seijin
  29. @Mip: I think what was meant by ‘children unwittingly doing something not befitting their age’ is by that picture of 7-10 year old girls wearing revealing clothes. How would you feel if stores likes LaSenza would start to target those children, advertising that they are preparing them for when they become pre-teens and then teens? They’d probably make products like bras but what would that hold? 7-10 year olds don’t have anything they should need a bra for. However, since they see other people do it (mainly the older girls) and because it has become available to them, they would start wearing it… Hope that makes sense cause I still have to go to sleep.

    seijin
  30. Anime/videogames/comics/radio shows/bugsbunny/movies/etc are not to blame. Bad parenting is. When I was a kid, if you did stupid shit you got your ass in a sling. This taught us that our actions had consequences, and sometimes those consequences were painful. It made us think twice about doing something that we knew we shouldn’t be doing, or at the very least it made us be A LOT more careful about getting caught.

    The Akiba killer is unfortunate, he sent some messages but nobody took them seriously HOWEVER if we take every thing posted online seriously it would sort of become like the deathnote thing where people that are not serious end up doing jail time and what not. Zero Tolerance policies usually end up being kind of bullshit and all the people that end up being punished are the ones who would have done no harm to begin with.

    It’s too bad nobody interacted with him online though, could have been a cool new DenshaOtaku series out of it, though maybe you can still use the idea and make a tv drama and anime based on it.

    cho sen
  31. What the current human society lacks is not the appropriate way to ‘ban”, “cenzor”, or “restrain” these materials, be it anime music, move, manga, or anything. Majority of the people who spam this “way of solving the things” arent mature enough either. Its also a basicly primitive human behavior to blame all out faults on intagible or tangible things or other persons, or on whatever that we have no connection with.

    The world would be a better place if the people who call themselves “adults” would realy grow up one day, and they would realize that their way of parenting is the only key element in the whole problem. If a person(child or adult) is dumb enough to take a fictional story real, then he will surely go berserk one day, its no matter that the cause will be anime, maga, game, or whatever. Suchy people are wakling proximity mines. The key to solve this broblem is not to ban these materials, but to educate and parent these people in a right way.

    The reason why the things are this way, even though its easy to realize this basic truth, is that most of the parents dont want to bear responsibility, so they just happily blame the fault of their lack of parenting skills on anything intangible, and because the politicans’ goals are not to have a goodly educated comunity what strictly lacks these primitive accidents and deviants, but to keep a dumb community they can easily controll.

    Simply, its because humanity is primitive, childish, egoistic, and power-hungry. We are the architects of our own destruction.

    Kandur
  32. @seijin
    That might be true, but then that link he put there is really misleading. I couldn’t really care less whether they wore those sorts of clothes or even ran around naked; though, unlike others (apparently), I’m not one to sexualize kids.

    It might be due to herd mentality but it might also be because they see how their older friends/siblings are more respected by their peers and they attribute this to their clothing and things like that, rather than age and experience.

    7-10 year olds don’t have anything they should need a bra for.

    Most likely no, but there are 9+ year olds who grow more and if they feel more comfortable with a bra they should have the right to wear one, right? Never heard about Lasenza before.

    Oh, and about that kid slapping his mother. Just looks to me that he has taken after her behaviour, but then again, it’s not like we get to know anything about their circumstances and how they usually treat each other. That video could go both ways as propaganda.

    Mip
  33. Army can fix that problem, or i will need to say army can fix the problem?:) So if in all country serve in army was obligatory for any people after 18 not look at they gender or status or something, this can fix many problem.

    But for this army need to be in first place an instrument to create a future of nation (or more precisely of earth) and just in second force for offense and defense.

    In reality I can point at the army of Israel, as good example of this, and in army of Russian Federation as a very very bad example.

  34. Nice article, too bad in this world there are all type of humans, not everyone is mature or knows enough to know what they are really doing. Sometimes people finds out later in life then regret what they do(me for example) others just grow out of immaturity of just keep it for the rest of their lives.
    Its human nature to adapt and act to fit the environment around you, which mostly includes social environment. Friends and media are major factors that shapes and creates are person’s personality. This cause an individual to have different viewpoints which defines what they think is right and wrong. When most people share the same view point,eg common sense, society will define that as being normal. Though others who have a different viewpoint maybe believe what everyone else thinks isn’t normal. This causes some people to think it may be alright to live in a fantasy world or create their own death notes.

    Darkfate
  35. @Mip
    Due to the fact that later in that paragraph I used a derivative of the term “socially acceptable” I had to find an equivalent (otherwise, I’d repeat “socially acceptable” all over the place), and “appropriate” was the best word I could find

    Regardless, yes, there are definitely some behavior that is appropriate based on age – extreme example: killing. Doesn’t what matter you’re killing (other humans, animals for food, a bug), an adult has more mature discernment to determine if they *need* to kill something compared to a child. It can be really disturbing to watch kids kill bugs for the sheer enjoyment of it, but that’s what some of them do. However, MATURE adults typically just kill bugs because they’re pests. If someone comes and breaks into my home threatening to kill my family, I have the ability to judge whether I should try to kill said assailant or not with whatever weapon I have lying around in order to defend my family, but there is no way a child can or should be allowed to make that judgment.

    And, again, really, I’m talking about socially acceptable behavior here. We socially accept that an adult is allowed to smoke, drink alcohol, have sex, curse, etc. (regardless of whether we consider it “appropriate” or not), mostly because MATURE adults know when and where it is socially acceptable to commit these acts. Children do not. One video I was frantically trying to find was something I saw on America’s Funniest Home videos years ago of a wedding reception where a 5 year-old ring bearer and a 5 year-old flower girl were lying down on the dance floor with the boy lying directly on top the girl, giving her innocent 5-year old kisses (like pecks on the cheek and forehead, but also lips). It’s hilarious, because we know they don’t know any better, but it’s not appropriate (even for two adults to suddenly do that on the dance floor of the wedding reception). After the video camera gawks them for half a minute, an older gentleman comes over, picks up the boy off the girl, gives him a pat on the rear, and sends him off. Then he does the same to the girl.

    And that’s what I really care about. Punishment and consequence for bad behavior. Like many have echoed here already, parents need to take accountability for their children, but there are more institutions in society than parenthood that have responsibility over rearing children. As such, I see no problems with schools suspending and expelling students over real-life Death Notes, and I am appalled that some FANS decry said action.

    I mean, do we really want a world full of kids who don’t know any better and are not given consequences for their actions, like this kid?

    I understand the point you are making that different cultures and countries have different views of what is socially acceptable and/or socially appropriate, but the point is that within ONE society, we need to educate our children and punish them accordingly when they do something we don’t find appropriate for them at their age within the context of the society and culture WE are trying to preserve. And, please, let’s NOT open the can of worms on how some societies want to change practices that other societies find socially acceptable.

    Natrone
  36. Woah, great article. My viewpoint had been changed somewhat. Really awesome. And thanks for all the…hyperlinks? Having a teacher who watches anime is great! Having one who writes editorial for animeblogs? Better.

    Grey
  37. @Natrone
    “And, please, let’s NOT open the can of worms on how some societies want to change practices that other societies find socially acceptable.”

    Putting that link there was like popping the lid open and dumping the worms for all to see. :\ But I’ll hold my tongue on the subject so things stay on topic.

  38. @Natrone
    Ok, I can sort of agree with the points you make now. Though this bit has me wondering

    We socially accept that an adult is allowed to smoke, drink alcohol, have sex, curse, etc. (regardless of whether we consider it “appropriate” or not), mostly because MATURE adults know when and where it is socially acceptable to commit these acts.

    Would you consider the “when and where” more important than they knowing about the related health problems, such as STDs, alcohol poisoning and the way some drugs messes with your mind or do you consider the problems to be equally bad?

    “this kid”: No, we definitely do not. For the record, that’s the first time I’ve seen a kid who could actually “deserve” a beating. Though personally I would force him to run at least 10km a day and no food if he doesn’t complete the lap. Hey, maybe that would make him actually run away instead of lazily steal the car next time…
    Btw, isn’t driver licenses pretty much handed out to kids when they turn 15 in usa, or is that just a myth?

    FMC/M: That’s definitely not something I would like to see as globally acceptable and that goes for hurting others in any way directly or indirectly. I see “socially acceptable” as another word for peer pressure, which is one type of indirect force.
    Also, I know you might have to defend yourself by hurting or even killing someone, but that would be more of a necessary evil rather than something acceptable as I see it.

    Lastly, I’m not much for being conservative and couldn’t really care less about culture and consider it no more important than honor and other such intangible things, which may be part of the reason for our disagreement. Though, I guess you’re not too conservative yourself, as you don’t seem to mind the effect anime have on your culture? That is except for those particular sort of cases you linked to in your article.

    Hope what I wrote made sense, if not I’m sorry for wasting your time…

    Mip
  39. @Jay
    While it’s a bit presumptuous to assume Jack Thompson will be disbarred (last I heard, the disciplinary hearing judge RECOMMENDED that Jack be found guilty of “lawyer misconduct,” and the Florida Supreme Court will be the ones making a ruling sometime in the future), things aren’t looking too good for him, I will admit with much happiness and glee.

    @Salenth
    I’d rather think of that link as showcasing a sealed glass jar or can of worms… 😉

    Natrone
  40. This article defeats itself. You begin by badgering “FANS” for stating the obvious truth (that such tragedies are the result of short sighted idiots who were inexorably bound to do SOMETHING idiotic and violent in their life time, and that they just happened to be fans of anime/gaming). And then, lo and behold about 3 pages and an hour of snoring later, you go on to confirm that this is in fact the truth. Way to be- boring/depressing/weak.

    Emissary
  41. @Mip
    I don’t really want to start a discussion on social vices here. There’s a large spectrum of acceptability and propriety when it comes to smoking, alcohol, drugs, sex, etc., with an incredible number of factors coming into play including (but not only) age, gender, and culture.

    To answer your question, though, it really depends. For some “problems,” the where and when are the ONLY things to consider. Like going to the bathroom – nobody really wants to see that in public (although in some countries, it’s culturally accepted to urinate on the street in public). Also, when little children “soil themselves” in public, people accept that. But for the average adult to do so – that’s just wrong and needs to be corrected. And no one in the right mind is going to say urinating and defecating are bad things we’re not supposed to do at all (like some might say about smoking and consuming alcohol).

    It’s interesting that you immediately pointed out STD’s as a problem of sex, because I didn’t mention what type of sex. What about completely monogamous sex within a married couple? There’s NOTHING wrong with that….unless they want to engage in such an activity in the middle of a busy intersection for everyone to see.

    “Where” and “When” are just another set of factors (like age and culture) that sometimes overshadow the actual “problem” (i.e. the bathroom example or sex), but honestly, they’re more often overshadowed by the actual problem (i.e. murder – most people don’t care when or where you murder; they feel it’s wrong no matter what – although, the issue does get more complex when you talk about war and/or self-defense).

    Natrone
  42. @ Gendar
    Your concept of manditory military service can be worse than non military service. Some people join the army just so they can legally kill people. Once those people are released from the army, they not only have the urge to kill people, but also the methods and training to do so.

    Som1
  43. @Emissary
    Okay, I’ll take the troll bait, just this once 😉

    I don’t know if you can tell, but I wrote this article with a great sense of irony (just look at my ending about FTG, having fun at the expense of others, and then me making fun of my students).

    (I just wrote something that was 5 pages – yes, I did that within half an hour – and probably 3 hours of snoring, so let me just delete all that and say this, instead):

    FANS themselves can turn into the very idiot they despise who ruins it for them all. I’m not criticizing FANS for rising to the defense of their entertainment – I just don’t always like HOW they do it sometimes (and, perhaps, also WHY they do it). This isn’t a black-and-white issue – there’s a large gradient of gray here, and I’m placing my mark somewhere in that range of what I find acceptable and what I find repulsive.

    Just take a look at the comment responses for that article on the execution of the man who vilified the word “otaku” I linked in the article. I think within the first page, there were comments like “good riddance,” “bye, you won’t be missed,” and “I hope they did a bad job” (of the execution). Someone then pointedly noted out that such comments do not make current otaku (who are indignant over the slanderous misconceptions generated in part by the criminal in the first place) look any better than they are currently perceived; in fact they make them look worse….

    Idiots are idiots, but they’re especially idiotic when they don’t realize it. I’m just writing an editorial that A) criticizes said idiocy and B) helps said idiots realize they’re idiots.

    Natrone
  44. Sigh… This is why I hate america.
    As if the teens weren’t enough, they have oldfags with illogical, hypocrite, conservative false-moral faggoty. Sometimes, they can be worse then the most retarded weeaboos.
    Natrone, you disgust me.

    LDC
  45. See, it’s obvious the kids with death notes don’t understand because they aren’t hiding the Death Note appropriately. They’re taking it lightly, and that will be their downfall, amirite Light-kun?!

    Whim
  46. @Natrone

    It’s interesting that you immediately pointed out STD’s as a problem of sex, because I didn’t mention what type of sex.

    Oops sorry, I was talking about kids/teens there and not adults, who I think should have already learned about the consequences and such.

    Mip
  47. Natron-e?, your posts provide some interesting insight and food for thought, as usual. Yet I feel that this particular post is slightly unorganized and disjoint. It’s okay to celebrate the coming end of the school year, but are you making sure to post while sober? 😀

    lightbringer
  48. To tell the truth I have nothing to say but that I felt really sad while reading this article. It actually brought tears to my eyes. The horror and disgust of people that just take it too far. I love anime and I love reading mangas, to think that there are actual people who are clearly completely out of it to take things to that extent is beyond me. Cosplay is okay in my book, it feels like another Halloween to me but those people who just lose sight of reality, it is just sad. Oh and that video with that kid hiting his mom… I was born in a hispanic family raised with hispanic values, when you hit your mom like that your hand turns to stone…or my hand turns to stone that would beat the living crap right out of my child if he ever tried to hit me. You get kids like that when you don’t discipline them. I think that people who take things too far like those kids writing names in Deathnotes got the right punishment, children need dicipline or they will never learn.

    Eliza
  49. Good article, I know that there are good reason to complain animes morals. But we’ve to think well, if everyone act like “mortal games”. I really dont wanna think about it. To be honest, we’ve to analize all types of entertainment. However, there is a problem, anime once was indicated to children, but I don’t know anymore, death note surely is to older person.

    Burn
  50. Oh Gawd! Imagine what those girls are like as adults. O_O
    I used to think it unfair to take away entertainment because of others, but I get you point and I agree with you. What ever happened to teaching your children well? I’m a middle schooler and my parents were always protective of what I did. However when I see people at my school, kids are smoking and almost getting pregnant. And at nearby schools, there are bomb threats just to get out of school. Where have the morals gone?
    The thing is that people my age nowadys don’t seem to realize how far jokes can go. This kind of stuff isn’t funny; it’s disgusting and yet people don’t realize how serious it is. Your article is tryuly deep and thought provoking. ^_^

    Jenn-Jen
  51. I liked how you didn’t actually defend anime and gave much thought to the whys and consequences. All in all, it’s up to the parents, relatives or friends to correct or educate instead of going around banning or blaming which I consider throwing oil to the fire instead of quenching it.

    Also, after watching that video of little girls dancing, I have to point out anime/manga loli wouldn’t influence potential pedophiles, that video would.

    yaku
  52. lol, a really amusing article with some oddly interesting points. It is not often that I get to see proofs along with the musings. Anyways, keep up the awesome work!

    lotuskonoha
  53. I think all the superficiality of society is causing it to corrupt thus creating such twisted minds… and all that certain things such as media is just a spark and a channel for all their angst, rage, hatred. But I do agree that the actions of a few shouldn’t determine the course of many. And it doesn’t help that the media does nothing but show such things in an attempt to control the population with fear.

    I got kicked around by society… but as opposed to using volient games to plan out a real thing…. it used such games as an outlet… since deep down I knew… trying that crap in real life wouldn’t end well. (Though I think those people didn’t care at that point… they just wanted to share the pain and end it.)

    As far as those child beauty pageants… that really does encourage pedophilia more than any Kodomo no Jikan episode. And Such things are a result of has-been/pass ‘sell by date’ mothers who want the spot light some more, never minding the fact that ultimate the mother wasn’t notable to begin with!

    Ultimately, societies all around the world are decaying under the excesses of wealth, vanity, greed, etc. I wager this…. there’ll be more incidents like those shootings as long as parents pass bulling off as “just being kids”, people ignoring the atrocious way that popular people treat those lesser than themselves, parents too busy working/drinking/cheating on one another/surfing to teach their kids right and wrong.

    As for Wacko Jacko… well his rants and such are surely destroying what credibility he has in the first place… thus he isn’t really a threat to gamers’ hobbyhoods.

    Duran
  54. Good article, although I do disagree with some of the stuff and I feel that it misses addressing a significant question, when stuff does happen, what should people do.

    The biggest problem I have with this is that you state near the end simply that “people should not react in ways that hurt the public’s perception of the medium.” You discuss a lot about what is wrong about people who do such things, however, these events will occur because such people exist, and that isn’t something that is going to change. We can look at the origin of the problems, which could be anything from bad parenting to people not acting mature, however that does not mean we can change what a child, childish adult, or an adult who has other problems will do without fixing the source of the problems, which would require society as a whole to address the problem, people admitting their mistakes, and parents acknowledging they are accountable for their children. However being realistic, this is not going to happen, because much of this goes against human nature.

    That said, your article says fans should acknowledge the causes of the problems, however it does not say what the fans should do instead. I will be the first to acknowledge punishment is needed for kids that do such things, and I would never argue against it. However, the fans of such a series and those who provide the series I believe do have some need to defend such a series. It may sound selfish for the fans to care more about their entertainment than acknowledging what should be done, however to some degree when inevitable things occur, some defense is needed. A good example of this is the gaming industry recently, the informed (key word being informed) defense of the industry has overturned many attempts to limit what the company can do. As to it being selfish for this to be the bigger concern of the fans, it is not really as anime has a direct effect on fans life, while some kid in some random school writing in a homemade death note does not directly effect the life of an adult who enjoys Death Note. Stuff happens in society everyday, and I can acknowledge and understand the problems that lead to it all day, however I do feel it is unreasonable for fans to accept this justification without making their side known (of course this needs to be done in an acceptable and informed way.)

    Much of the above is my views as to what is missing from the article, and it is based on my opinion, and it really isn’t intended to disprove anything in your article, as what I have discussed you really did not go into as much as you did to acknowledging the problem.

    I would like to ask you a question, as I am interested in what your view would be on this.

    I believe that the worse possible thing for the Western anime community would be for the whole concept of lolicon to come out into the open with a big story in the western world and create a massive amount of backlash on the community as a whole. If this situation did occur, regardless of the reason, what do you feel fans should do in such a situation.

    UBW
  55. Good article, although I do disagree with some of the stuff and I feel that it misses addressing a significant question, when stuff does happen, what should people do.

    The biggest problem I have with this is that you state near the end simply that “people should not react in ways that hurt the public’s perception of the medium.” You discuss a lot about what is wrong about people who do such things, however, these events will occur because such people exist, and that isn’t something that is going to change. We can look at the origin of the problems, which could be anything from bad parenting to people not acting mature, however that does not mean we can change what a child, childish adult, or an adult who has other problems will do without fixing the source of the problems, which would require society as a whole to address the problem, people admitting their mistakes, and parents acknowledging they are accountable for their children. However being realistic, this is not going to happen, because much of this goes against human nature.

    That said, your article says fans should acknowledge the causes of the problems, however it does not say what the fans should do instead. I will be the first to acknowledge punishment is needed for kids that do such things, and I would never argue against it. However, the fans of such a series and those who provide the series I believe do have some need to defend such a series. It may sound selfish for the fans to care more about their entertainment than acknowledging what should be done, however to some degree when inevitable things occur, some defense is needed. A good example of this is the gaming industry recently, the informed (key word being informed) defense of the industry has overturned many attempts to limit what the company can do. As to it being selfish for this to be the bigger concern of the fans, it is not really as anime has a direct effect on fans life, while some kid in some random school writing in a homemade death note does not directly effect the life of an adult who enjoys Death Note. Stuff happens in society everyday, and I can acknowledge and understand the problems that lead to it all day, however I do feel it is unreasonable for fans to accept this justification without making their side known (of course this needs to be done in an acceptable and informed way.)

    Much of the above is my views as to what is missing from the article, and it is based on my opinion, and it really isn’t intended to disprove anything in your article, as what I have discussed you really did not go into as much as you did to acknowledging the problem.

    I would like to ask you a question, as I am interested in what your view would be on this.

    I believe that the worse possible thing for the Western anime community would be for the whole concept of lolicon to come out into the open with a big story in the western world and create a massive amount of backlash on the community as a whole. If this situation did occur, regardless of the reason, what do you feel fans should do in such a situation.

    dan
  56. I’ve been thinking around your same lines, for quite some time. When watching anime of the genre, people are bound to start forming irrational, and even dangerous ideas in their heads. I think it just proves that there shouldn’t be any type of media in this category. Humans are very mentally fragile and that type of graphic exposure, per se, doesn’t help. The same can be said about gore and other types of horror representations. It just twists some minds toward serial killings, etc. Is there a way to solve this? The easiest thing is to quite truthfully, ban it. What better way to prevent mental scarring than send it out of site. Now, we can’t use the Adults-Know-Better rule, because it doesn’t matter what age the viewer is, what way they interpret it determines how they deal with it. For most otaku, Death Note, Jigoku Shoujo and various other anime can be watched as just that: anime that makes you think. But when other people watch it, their mind jumps to the other side of the fence.

    Not only does it make people (children) crazy, it also makes the rest of the population view anime as something bad and harmful. Kids respond to these types of Mental Violence and then they decide to do something with it. It makes me, as an Otaku, worried about anime in the future and whether enough people might rally together and try to ban it altogether. Most would laugh that off right now, but it is indeed a big concern.

    ….I’m not sure I phrased this very well, but I hope the point was made….

  57. @dan
    I have to counter against your over-simplification of the end of my article: “people should not react in ways that hurt the public’s perception of the medium.” The problem with phrasing the idea I was trying to convey in this way is that people’s perceptions are as wide and varied as the issues I’m trying to bring up. Again, it’s not really black and white. At the extreme end, someone could say “Anime fans should stop cosplaying, because it makes us look like freaks to normal people.” I certainly do not agree with that. But certain ways and manners that FANS act out anime are inappropriate, and I am trying to show people where they should draw the gigantic, fuzzy, gray “line” in regards to that.

    Now, the practical application that you are seeking me to tell you (which I somewhat have problems with, because as a teacher, I really do believe it is best to just give you ideas and have you formulate your own thoughts on what actions to take, as opposed to me just turning you into a robot) is that if you see a fellow fan of anime doing something stupid (or planning to do something stupid) that could potentially harm anime fandom due to its social impropriety simply because they find it fun, then speak out! Be the “killjoy” and tell them to cut the crap and nonsense, or say that “you’re going too far.” In real life (as opposed to here on the internet), people are so much more likely to let bad things happen and pretend they didn’t see them. It’s less confrontational that way. FTG was trying to make me feel bad by saying, “Fine. Ruin my fun.” Yes, I know anime conventions are about getting together, enjoying your anime hobby, and having fun, but for goodness’ sake, have fun responsibly. Have fun, but stay in control. “But, but, it’s more fun to lose control…” That’s bull! When you lose control, YOU might be having fun, but I guarantee that it will be at the expense of someone else. Then you have no right to have fun in such a manner. There’s WAY too much crap that happens at anime conventions that if a news crew saw all of that…..well, that’s probably material for another editorial down the road.

    In regards to your hypothetical scenarios, those seem to always be post-incident: what do fans do AFTER some idiot has tarnished the image of anime. Like I said, I don’t have a problem with people coming to the defense of the entertainment they love, but do so in a balanced fashion with logic and a level head:

    Reporter: “The Death Note manga was banned in several schools in China. Why do you thinks this is wrong?”

    Idiot Anime FAN: “Because the Death Note manga is awesome! It has this incredibly powerful story about a guy who can kill people and tries to kill the criminals of the world in order to carry justice. Thus, it carries themes that explore the moral conundrums of our own criminal justice system and makes us question what is right and what is wrong!”

    (If you cannot spot what is stupid about the preceding statement, in terms of how the media can pick up and twist the words to portray anime fans as social deviants, then you have a lot more problems than I can help with.)

    Logical Anime Fan: “Because banning it would be like banning books, or at least it starts us on the slippery slope of banning and censoring ideas and information simply because we do not agree with it or dislike it. That’s a simple violation of Free Speech, which does, indeed, have its limits, but the Death Note manga does not exceed any of those.”

    Again, I was rather unhappy about how some anime fans felt that students who wrote the Death Notes should NOT be punished for their actions, with lame defense, like “it’s not real – what’s the big deal?”

    Finally, your lolicon hypothetical situation. It’s a rather complicated, because we have a clash of cultures: the Japanese are a bit more accepting of “sexualizing” young children COMPARED to Americans. Obviously, there are some fans of anime who do not enjoy lolicon whatsoever, so they can simply (and very reasonably) say, “Anime is a wide medium with MANY genres. I don’t watch the lolicon stuff, so it’s not fair to group what I enjoy with that perversion and bash them all equally. Do you say all movies are trash, just because a small portion of them are dedicated to pornography?” This is similar to the “I don’t watch hentai” defense of anime, which was cropping up all over the place as anime started to first become mainstream in the U.S.

    And for fans OF lolicon themselves, well, they’ll have to find legitimate and logical defenses. I’m not going to provide all the answers. I will say that I can understand how a lolicon fan can appreciate lolicon anime as JUST entertainment, and it is indeed sad if they are criticized for enjoying the entertainment and/or have said entertainment forcibly taken away from them, ONLY because a STUPID lolicon fan acted out some lolicon anime fantasy in the real world and generated bad publicity. Actually, it’s not just sad – it’s wrong, because the same situation can be applied to anime in general, video games, and movies, and that’s what’s problematic.

    Look, this isn’t an easy issue. Truthfully, almost everything I will write in my editorials will not be clear black-and-white issues with a definite right and wrong answer. I write these to generate discussion and debate for a reason: life is hard. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either lying to you or trying to sell you something. But you gotta use your brain in order to get by, and what I write, well, at least it makes you think, right?

    Natrone
  58. very interesting read.

    I personally feel pretty angry towards those teenagers or whomever that play around with Death Note. I just can’t understand why some people aren’t as rational and mature enough as others. but being a teenager myself I sound pretty selfish. I don’t want anime/manga/games or other forms of entertainment be blamed for people’s lack of social skills and mental maturity. but I don’t know.. it could be the case..
    parenting skills might be a factor but I think the personality of the child is important too. My parents let me watch anime. I even introduced Death Note to them as they enjoy psychological mysteries. They know me, they know that I know what is real and what is not. I liked Death Note a lot. I found it brilliant and was entertained. nothing more.

    I was at school in China when they banned the Death Notes. I knew a number of my friends had bought them from local anime stores and many more students had them too. Although I’m a Death Note fan, I didn’t buy one because I thought it was pointless. If I did ever buy one I would keep it clean. Anyways, most of the time my friends and classmates used it for laughs and were never serious about it so we were pretty bummed out when they had to ban it. They weren’t introverts or anything so I don’t know about others. It was then on the news and they interviwed some middle schoolers and high schoolers. Most of them said they wrote down names for fun and were not serious and others said they used it as a stress reliever… (and chinese kids ARE really streseed). And then after that, almost anything Death Note related was banned on the internet. My friends were upset they couldn’t download the anime/manga or even talk about it on forums and such.

    so this is ruining it for others right? I know teenagers like me are self absorbed but it would really suck if anime or games was officially declared a negative influence on people and every show would be something like ‘government approved’ (obviously in China, Death Note is definately not ‘government approved’)

    right now for me this is a hard to solve problem. What are parents going to do? Don’t let your kid watch anime or play shooting games because he/she is an introvert or an anti-social jerk and will lead to crazy thinking? It seems to me that its hard to teach people how to be mature and socially acceptable. Most people are fine but there doesn’t seem to be an effective way of getting it all to stick on others.

    ….I’m terrible at explaining things and i don’t even know if I had a point or not….

    and those little girls… people may frown upon it especially Americans but too me that is just Japanese culture. Those girls probably do no know any better. Its a little sad to see their mothers using them for fame most likely but maybe those girls won’t grow up to be slutty bitches. It depends on their personality.
    heck, in China, pole-dancing is a sport… and supposedly not sexual whatsoever.. lots of guys do it too……

    viewer
  59. I am unhappy with these things going on. I really loved Higurashi no Naku Koro ni series. If you watch the whole thing plus (+Kai=50 episodes), you will probably knows that the theme is neither about murder nor trying to kill your friends. That is why I was greatly shocked when the news about the murders happened in Japan that cause the stalls of episode 12 of Kai and School Days. Anime is maybe part of the blame, but it all depends on the individual. Whether anime and manga had influence on you or not, you should not try to imitate it to an extreme degree. School Days was a distaste for its extreme violence for me, put I do not think Higurashi in the same way. I remember the news said that some guy acted out Higurashi and use the same hatchet as Rena’s, now that is what I called crazy. The whole series is not always about murder, it is rather about trying to find the mistakes and fix them to avoid the dead end. If anime has influence youth that much then tons of reports of murders would have come in, not one or two. Too bad some anime series become the scapegoat like how Hinamizawa village in Higurashi. Wow, fantasy becomes reality in a flash.

    Z
  60. @Aishin
    If that’s all you got out of my article, then fine. I’m willing to concede that people will make gross generalizations out of an editorial that was originally several pages longer than its current form with much more detailed arguments and counter-arguments.

    Really quickly, all I will say is that society isn’t always right, but in order for society to function correctly, its members need to abide by a general set of consensual rules. Those rules are subject to change within a structured system. Otherwise, if you take away all that, you’d just have anarchy.

    Natrone
  61. hmmm…

    first off, its good to be back online again… but the joy is muted by the recent deaths of passerbys (and prolly fellow fans) in Akiba..
    incidentally, the guy involved in the incident(lets not go off-topic) was mistreated from his early teens, an issue of misguided mother-care… its reported in the papers… lost mother’s love, or so he thot from his youth when she started showering more attention on the younger brother… the choice of Akiba was purely a coincidence of necessity, me thinks. linking Jap incidents and US incidents or incidents frm anywhere else into a whole without knowing better of the inner workings of the varied cultures and family structures is a strict no-no… in every sense.
    i would not bother with the [STUPID] outcries from nincompoops who alledge that suggestive manga / anime / music is the cause of recent outbursts… if so then all writings of the sort like Romeo and Juliet and Julius Ceasar should be taken off the shelves as well… hark! how detestable the tastes of so many a well-mannered, politically correct ‘know-nothing’ (why not lose Las Vegas instead…that would be more morally sane) …
    i am reminded of the wonder when i watch ‘Library Wars’… the spirit of humanity to be found in all that library material left to a few to protect. those who appreciate its true meaning , worth and potential – saving it for generations yet unborn.

    tonbo
  62. Natrone

    it’s hard to find a fan on the internet nowadays who tries to consider a good number of points in issues such as this. I’m also sick of the fact that it seems most from both sides of the issue love to state false generalizations about the other.

    I agree with you that total freedom of expression is not the right way to do things. Interesting read.

    paulrenzo
  63. addendum

    ironically, its exactly becoz we’re not permitted to act in certain ways or say certain things ( regardless why ) that ppl churn out books, manga, stuff … pouring their guts out into making the next New York Bestseller … irregardless the stuff really makes sense or not… but ppl fall for it any ways.

    tonbo
  64. @phatmlrd
    Believe it or not, based on my examination of several comments, I have come to the conclusion that there is a large group of readers of Random Curiosity who are not from America, and thus, may not be familiar with its slang and colloquialisms. While I will admit I am not systematic about it (and there is probably an idiom or three left unexplained to foreigners in my editorials), if I write something I feels needs some background information to it, I will link it.

    Natrone
  65. No. I don’t want some deranged loser losing his mind one day, trying to run people I might know (or even me) down with a vehicle, and going on a knifing spree.

    And I especially don’t want people over in some other culture to get happy with what’s going on in the world, without thinking of the consequences, when they create animu.

    Thank you oh so very much.

  66. No. I don’t want some deranged loser losing his mind one day, trying to run people I might know (or even me) down with a vehicle, and going on a knifing spree.

    And I especially don’t want people over in some other culture to get happy with what’s going on in the world, without thinking of the consequences, when they create animu.

    Thank you oh so very much.

    Lord Octane
  67. @Natrone

    I apologize. You took time to write this nice introspective piece, and I didn’t give it proper due. I will tell you why.

    Your article never puts any points up to support the main point in the second paragraph. This is what turned me off to examining the article in a scrupulous manner. “FANS only care about losing their precious entertainment” Okay, fine assertion, but how do you qualify this? Who are “FANS”? Is everyone who disagrees with actions attacking anime a FAN? How do you claim to know what their motives are and what they want? In other words this is a giant non-sequitur.

    Then you go on to assert that children can/do have trouble in distinguishing fantasy from reality and are in danger of “acting out”. However several of the examples you put up are cases of adults clearly instructing or encouraging the children as opposed to the children arriving at these conclusion independently. Strangely this appears to be a rally against modern westernized culture than anything on TV, let alone anime. However you seem to acknowledge that we educate them to know what is socially acceptable. Why ignore that we educate them to be socially unacceptable? Children do not watch TV in a vacuum.

    Next you (slyly, as a rebuttal to another idea) assert that children can grow up trivializing death. Along with the Idea that we educate them, it can be said that this is certainly possible, but only in the realm of direct human influence. We have well documented cases of child soldiers or children who, having been brutalized from a young age, practice rape or violence in their later years, but this is not evidence to support that this is a result from entertainment.

    In fact there is scientific biological evidence to suggest that we evolved a innate sense of empathy throughout our genetic development. The ability feel and follow rules of reciprocity and cooperation is a survival mechanism just like the immune system or the prefrontal cortex Just as Binti Jua demonstrated the capacity for understanding the very nature of danger and harm against others, Its been shown that we too can do the same from birth.

    The point here is to recognize that reconditioning is stronger a process than entertainment alone can account for and encompasses a wide variety of factors. This is WHY we conduct studies; to find out what these factors are and how much they influence us as a people.

    This is the very idea you gloss over in this statement: “There’s no evidence that watching something violent will make you violent!” If this is false there would be plenty of cases to illustrate that people who enjoy this entertainment ON MASS would collectively demonstrate patterns or tendencies toward violence and loss of respect for life. This is an important point. This is why its brought up.

    Its possible that this evidence is out there and I just haven’t heard of it, but in replying to me and in having a good argument in general you need be put forth some of it. I am not swayed by the mere length of the paper.

    Arguments get old, but they don’t become invalid because of age. Just because people have said it in the past doesn’t give you a license to gloss over it. Indeed you have even more of a duty to use the counter arguments that undoubtedly already exist BECAUSE the argument is old.

    The rest of your paper is about the social norms of anime culture which, the same as any subculture, has it peculiarities. So I am content to let the community police itself as to what they worry about what “normal” people think.

    The whole “might makes right” thing was an aside; a personal peeve of mine brought about only because you justified governments action through such a ideal. Its find to accept it because this is the way tings are, but I strongly disagree that it is okay to preach or advocate “might makes right” as an Ideal. In fact it angers me.

    You are naive if you think there is any society on earth right now that “functions correctly”. Even the ones that are the best off remain listless though the whole world kills each other, prorogates destructive memes, poisons the air, poisons their bodies, and denies basic happiness in the name of capitalism. You just haven’t questioned these practices because they don’t endanger you directly nor do you have the will to oppose said establishment. I for one will die for what I believe in. Can you say the same? Can you live for your fellow man?

    Aishin
  68. As you would expect from a educator. Very interesting read. Some of the examples were somewhat humorous as well, if a little overexaggerating (Guess I won’t see the severity until I see a real-life example, huh?)

    As much as anime can be a culprit for some of the things happening, so can other forms of entertainment. Live-action (or real people acting out) probably have less effect on the world of make-believe for people, though.

    Look at it this way: Fans will be fans, and you know a majority would think FIRST for themselves rather than for others, let alone the society. Either that, or we all need some more concerned individuals to point out the possibilities of having entertainment being responsible for people like Tsutomu Miyazaki (though I can argue that different people have different ways of reacting to anime as well as different mindsets, urging/advising/suggesting to kids at an early age what they are doing isn’t entirely correct in a sense is a viable method).

    Owaranai Destiny
  69. Love to see someone act out school days. Personally i think most adults underestimate kids. Most things children and teenagers alike are stupid (including me) but its up to the parents to educate the kids on the difference between reality and fantasy. Acting and doing things are 2 separate things.

    Banning death note is pretty dumb. But its the same with a case in the USA where a kid killed a bunch of people and used GTA as a scapegoat. Censorship in dubs(IE cutting out blood gore violence etc..). Its just an easier way out adults would rather ban something than educate their kids. But if you count the amount of people who are dumb enough to write their own death notes it would probably be like a 0.00000000001% of the worlds population (not actual stats).

    If your kid grows up dumb is the parents to blame. If kid write death notes you parents should be the educating your kids to NOT do it. Why not just try asking your kid to stop maybe explain that making a black book with the word death note on the cover may make you seem like a person writing death threats. Wouldn’t that be easier than having to contact a tv station to ban a program.

    But the kids dressing up thing, god no! Those parents are f***ed UP!

    ok sorry had my rant.

    hmmm
  70. So you’re saying that people who have a macabre sense of humor are in the wrong? That referring to a thing they like with a fake that makes people overreact is wrong? That it’s not mature to do such thing, and yet taking the moral high-ground by accusing people with a macabre sense of humor of actually wanting for people to die? Do you even understand in the slightest what people branding fake Death Notes are doing? Because it really doesn’t look like that.

    Venire
  71. @Aishin
    I don’t know if you read my previous editorials, but I’ve discussed what I think FANS are. It’s a rather ephemereal term and very much best left open to interpretation to the reader. But, basically, it’s THAT GUY. THAT GUY who everyone looks at and makes fun of in their head or within their group for taking their fandom too far. Everyone has a different view of what “too far” is, which is why I’d rather not explain the concept of FANS more so than I have already done.

    The whole point of my article was discussing real-life Death Notes. I’m pretty sure those students arrived at those actions independently of adults. Sure, we could argue on and on about how adults have erroneously educated their children that wishing death on others is acceptable. But, again, I did not want to publish a 10-page editorial (which, with all my comments, is what it’s turning out to be anyway). I did not ignore the fact that a portion of society educates children in socially unacceptable practices – I merely skipped across that puddle like a flat rounded stone, because said portion of society does not only include parents and adults, but also media, such as movies, video games, and anime.

    I would counterargue that children can grown up trivializing death ONLY in the realm of direct human influence. Haven’t you heard of video conditioning?

    You know, it’s really ironic to me that you discuss the biological evidence of human empathy, because that is the very foundation of society and the whole “might makes right” you are SO vehemently against (by the way, I’m not dogmatic in my opinions to say “might makes right” is always correct OR always incorrect). The ability to feel and follow rules of reciprocity and cooperation allows like-minded individuals to form groups that follow said rules. And when an individual comes along with, perhaps, less genetic empathy to detect said rules, it is up to the group to educate them in order for them to function within their society.

    I gloss over “There’s no evidence that watching something violent will make you violent,” because I think that’s a given. 99% of the anime community believes in this (as do I), so elaborating on it is pointless for what this editorial is trying to cover (although, to be honest, I DID discuss it in my earlier, lengthier draft).

    You have me, though, with the whole “I don’t have a license to gloss over it.” I mean, I don’t have a license to write at all, so everything I say you can take with a huge dump truck of salt. Again, I did discuss it before, and I cut that part out for length. It was my choice as the writer, because while I am writing to make interesting points and debates here, I have to keep it INTERESTING, and part of my writing is the entertainment factor (thus, all the poor attempts at comedy).

    And, I think you took what I said too far. I never justified government action through “might makes right.” I am against the banning of books, for example. I do feel, however, that an individual has a responsibility to the society that fosters it to abide by most of its rules (can we NOT get into a discussion of when society’s rules are wrong? I know society’s rules have been and some rules still are wrong – nothing is perfect).

    And of course, no society functions correctly or perfectly. I don’t question all their practices, because they are not applicable to what this editorial is trying to FOCUS on. However, if NO ONE abides by society’s rules, then there’s not way to even TRY to make it a goal of having a decently running society. That’s just anarchy.

    “I for one will die for what I believe in.” That sure does sound like “The good of the few outweigh the good of the many.”
    “Can you live for your fellow man?” That sure does sound like “The good of the many outweigh the good of the few.”

    I’m not trying to say you contradict yourself or are a hypocrite. I believe life runs best when there is a balance between these two views.

    ———–

    @Venire
    I understand that some of the stupid teenagers were just having fun and not being serious with their real-life Death Notes, enjoying some sort of macabre sense of humor, just like some teenagers with an overly mischievous sense of humor take a joke too far and end up destroying another student’s homework assignments by lining a locker full of water balloons triggered to explode when the locker door opens. A joke at the expense of others is not funny (unless the “victim” is able to laugh at themselves), and while some people will unjustifiably overreact, it falls on the responsibility of the person pulling the joke to determine this and discern whether they should do it or not. This is why you don’t prank certain people at certain times of the day.

    Let’s just look at a different example. People make fun of people ALL the time. Within the safety of a group or clique of friends, no one can claim that they haven’t ridiculed someone else who is not a member of said group or clique. It could be as innocuous as saying, “I like the guy, but I hate talking to him – he just goes on and on and doesn’t ever shut up,” to as degrading as, “They smell. They really need to take a bath.” It’s human nature to say these comments, but do you necessarily say them to the person’s face? Part of what regulates society and keeps us in good social order is the ability to “vent” these feelings and frustrations in a secure fashion (like with close friends or family). As I wrote in the editorial, if some kids with a macabre sense of humor really want to write real-life Death Notes, then have the intelligence and maturity to not let people catch you with it!

    UNLESS part of the joke these kids are trying to pull off is, “Look! Ha Ha! I wrote your name in my Death Note. Now, you’re going to die. j/k ROFLOLCOPTER.” If they said it that way to a fellow fan of anime or a close friend, it might be okay, but if they did that with a teacher or a classmate they didn’t like? Well, it would be understandable why the other person would be upset, and why repercussions would be necessary.

    Natrone
  72. I just don’t like when people say that video games and anime are to blame for today’s violence. There are multiple studies that prove the exact opposite, like the one that shows violence decreasing at the same time as the release of all Grand Theft Auto games, and one earlier this year done by Maryland University that proves there is no connection between real world violence and violent video games.

    Darkwolf8000
  73. that shows violence decreasing at the same time as the release of all Grand Theft Auto games

    versus

    that proves there is no connection between real world violence and violent video games

    Just saying…

    Mip
  74. @Natrone
    I will accept that you created a term that I was unfamiliar with. I only object to the subjectiveness that the term carries as a exaggeration.

    I confess this statement makes no sense to me;

    “I would counterargue that children can grown up trivializing death ONLY in the realm of direct human influence. Haven’t you heard of video conditioning?”.

    This is not a counterargument because I said these words myself.

    “it can be said that this (trivializing death) is certainly possible, but only in the realm of direct human influence.”

    The difference being that I said nothing of “video conditioning.” Which itself is odd for two reasons. First video conditioning would not be direct, nor human in its influence, not like a fist or a sermon would be. Second, no, I have not heard of video conditioning being used. What doctor or country employed this practice? What was the success rate? What are the effects? Was it used for war in relation to child soldiers?

    Also your original article said nothing of video conditioning. If you want to elaborate I would be most attentive. It seems it would be much more relevant evidence than child models or sensationalized brats.

    I know you were going after real life Death Notes. But the examples you used were highly flawed which was why I mentioned them. Death Notes very well might be a example of acting out, but those points did not support this idea.

    Now the biggest debacle. Human empathy is a basis for “might makes right”? Those have absolutely nothing to do with each other. One is a emotion with a biological basis about understanding others and the other is an Ideal that the strong dictate what is acceptable. If you find one a basis for the other you are clearly thinking beyond me. I would love to know how this works.

    No I didn’t think the relationship between TV and violence was a given. That’s why I said it. Unfortunately I was hoping for a more concise view of this topic. “Everyone believes this” is not an argument. “Ad populum” does not do it for me. Since this is the basis and main support for you topic “acting out is bad” I would have thought this would be one of the things to leave in from your earlier draft.

    “I will die for what I believe in” could also mean I will fight so that you could write whatever story you want. It could also mean that I accept death so that my objection can never be ignored as a form of non violent resistance. I don’t see how this is the good of the few.

    Living for you fellowman could be something as simple as reducing your carbon footprint, or convoluted as working to make sure a certain politician is elected.

    You interpreted these statements incorrectly to miss the point that the ideals behind them are what matter not what society tells you. The question is did you make this strawman on purpose or was it an accident. If you did it on purpose then I am done here and you are free to teach people whatever you will regardless of the lack of reasoning and logic. What a dark time we live in.

    Aishin
  75. To be honest, Aishin, I think you just object to my writing style. It’s fine. My 11th grade English teacher didn’t like the way I wrote, either…

    How about:
    “I would counter-argue against the notion YOU brought up that children can grown up trivializing death ONLY in the realm of direct human influence.

    Haven’t you heard of video conditioning?”

    Video conditioning is, indeed, NOT direct nor human, but it has been found through psychological studies I would link but cannot, because said academic Psychology Journals can only be accessed through university channels (i.e. you’d need a login and password to access them), and my old one has expired from when I studied psychology before becoming a teacher. Suffice it to say, you can educate (well, the study really only talked about conditioning) people through video. The context of said conditioning is VERY specific (as most academic research is), and some pundits latched on to the study as proof that watching violent entertainment can make you violent. However, the researchers themselves countered that the media was making gross generalizations of their findings.

    Nevertheless, the point is that there are plenty of other factors that influence the development and education of humans BESIDES humans themselves…..

    I know you were going after real life Death Notes. But the examples you used were highly flawed which was why I mentioned them. Death Notes very well might be a example of acting out, but those points did not support this idea.

    “Acting out” could be acting out ANYTHING, besides anime, and I used examples acting out INAPPROPRIATELY in order to support whatever part of the argument I was developing at the time. This is a multi-part constructed editorial meant to take the reader on a journey of discovery yet be entertaining/interesting at the same time. I don’t know why you feel like I’m opening the flood waters of doom by preaching whatever I’m preaching (you really do take my arguments way further than they were meant to be taken)….

    Now the biggest debacle. Human empathy is a basis for “might makes right”? Those have absolutely nothing to do with each other. One is a emotion with a biological basis about understanding others and the other is an Ideal that the strong dictate what is acceptable. If you find one a basis for the other you are clearly thinking beyond me. I would love to know how this works.

    When you understand others, you can learn to abide by their rules.
    When many people understand each other, they can form a group of like-minded individuals (i.e a society).
    When you have such a large group of these like-minded people individuals (i.e. a society), they become the strong majority over those who don’t conform to their way of thinking (i.e. don’t follow the rules).

    It’s not necessarily an intuitive connection, but it’s there.

    “Ad populum” does not do it for me.

    Well, it does for MOST of the people, erego, ad populum 😛
    And when I’m writing a column for a large group of people, then ad populum 🙂
    Seriously, the irony of your statements are really killing me, sometimes XD

    “I will die for what I believe in” could also mean I will fight so that you could write whatever story you want. It could also mean that I accept death so that my objection can never be ignored as a form of non violent resistance. I don’t see how this is the good of the few.

    That’s because it’s really “the good of the me” (and by me, I mean you). You choosing to die for what you believe in is selfish. Go ahead and try to paint it any other color, but if you had a family to support and you did such a thing, you are selfish. It’s a lot harder to live under a suppressive system trying (arguably, in vain) to change said system in order to promote the good of the many than it is to die a martyr and thus promote the good of the few (or the one).

    (Suddenly, I’m thinking of Lelouche and Suzaku in Code Geass…..)

    I honestly think the two of us are looking at this issue too differently to continue discussing it:

    You are looking at the issue through the lens of ideals, which are nice to discuss and be philosophical about, but really do not promote any change or get anything done.

    I’m looking things at the issue pragmatically, balancing the ideals with the reality of, well, reality, and trying to get people to take action.

    If you really want to keep discussing this, though, I’m game….

    Natrone
  76. All right. I misunderstood counter argument remark.

    How much anime or Death Note in particular contributes to video conditioning would have been a much more entertaining article/discussion. Ill concede that factors other than human can influence people.

    I have no problem with you preaching whatever you want about the effects of Death Notes and acting out inappropriately, all I need is points supportive of the main idea. If its not tied to the idea of the death note, then it doesn’t follow logically. The argument needs specific supporting points, not ones based on generalizations. You can do this while still be entertaining/enlightening im sure.

    “When you understand others, you can learn to abide by their rules. ect”

    There were three leaps there. you had to make three statements where the word “can” was used three times indicating that one may follow from the other but not indicating this is natural progression. This is the very definition of a non-sequiter. Its is bad logic. And thus not admissible.

    Now then, if I may be allowed to freak out.

    For Christ’s sake no! Ad Populum is not true! It cant be used! You’re a teacher for crying out loud its called a LOGICAL FALLACY for a reason. We don’t use logical fallacies to find truth.

    Unless you want to fall in to subjective and existential bullshit, we must use the tools of logic and reasoning to find truth! we need to put forth augments that follow inductively or deductively to a true statement. I never imagined that you would adopt Ad Populum as a statement of purpose. I guess you must love Islam then, right? That’s popular with a LOT of people.

    Really. I shouldn’t have to explain this. Watch this amusing video. http://youtube.com/watch?v=q-Sq_AzbIJ4

    What if I have no family? How is it selfish. What about the people who voluntarily enlisted in world war II? Were they not fighting and dying for what they believe in? How were they being selfish again?

    Yes its obvious to say that living for something is harder that dying. That’s why the second statement was about “living for your fellow man”. The first one is there only to set a precedent. I used both to illustrate a serious frame of mind. It is not hypocritical. Its is not selfish in all but the most psychological egoist sense of the word. I just cant help but feel that any one using a psychological egoism argument in real life is doing nothing but throwing up a smoke screen.

    Of course ideals are important. Without them what are we? What do we live for? Are you just someone who lives for hedonistic pleasure? Is that all you can see in your life to the point where you look down on people who actually have ideas they strive for? Isn’t someone striving for what the believe in beautiful?

    The concept of having an ideal is not mutually exclusive to being able to act on it. If it was we wouldn’t have things in the world like socialized health care. We wouldn’t have things like museums and free libraries. The Ideal behind them gave birth to beautiful expressions of learning and discovery.

    If you don’t have an ideal how can you get anything done? What you call balancing I call weakness.

    But to be fair, yes. I am not promoting any change. This is simply a response to your article and its contents. If there was any changed to be proposed, it would be coming from your end.

    If by looking at things “differently” you mean “Logically” then yes we do see things differently. Reality is not defined by how we feel. I am using the tools of logic to the best of my ability to cut through faulty reasoning If you want to close your eyes to that let me know.

    Aishin
  77. You…are…way…too…serious…..

    And, you’re not making this fun, but here we go:

    Effects of Death Note: kids write real Death Note (if Death Note wasn’t there, kids would not write real-life Death Notes). Yes, the spirit of mal-intent would be there, because kids have and always will write death threats (which I pointed out), but Death Note caused them to write Death Notes.

    Writing real-life Death Notes is inappropriate. Some would argue otherwise. Thus, I presented many examples of what I think should be considered inappropriate (although, I readily admitted that it’s really based on the eye of the beholder), in order to offer a way to show how writing real-life Death Notes are inappropriate. Sorry if you couldn’t follow that train of thought and/or you thought the train was not a train of logic – that’s just how we think differently (and please, don’t insult me by saying YOU are logical and I am not and that’s what the difference is – that’s not only mean, but it’s actually illogical!) XD

    “can” was used three times indicating that one may follow from the other but not indicating this is natural progression. This is the very definition of a non-sequiter. Its is bad logic. And thus not admissible.

    Should I offer it to you in reverse?
    “Without that biological innate empathy, humans would not be able to form societies, much less survive.” (I now await for you to use another latin term to describe how I am wrong)

    Ad Populum is not true! (and more ranting).

    Ad Populum is by its very definition false. But, can we just step out of our bubble and look at reality: the effects are VERY real. People act on ad populum all the time. That’s why humanity sucks, but that’s what make humans, well, human…

    Besides, this is what I wrote:

    Well, it does for MOST of the people, erego, ad populum 😛
    And when I’m writing a column for a large group of people, then ad populum 🙂
    Seriously, the irony of your statements are really killing me, sometimes XD

    I mean, I was writing all that very tongue-in-cheek. I was trying to be cute, if you will. Were you blind to the emoticons? I still stand by what I said before – ad populum is out there. YOU want to write an article and fight against it, then by all means, go ahead, start a blog, and good luck!

    And where in my editorial have I ever said I’m trying to seek the truth? I’m just trying to open people’s minds to things they may not have thought about before and possibly encourage them to take action in a way I think will benefit us. If you get cynical about it, I could be using my “position” to push my agenda (the very thing I was decrying against in the article). I’m surprised no one has attempted to point out THAT hypocrisy…yet 😛

    I am a science teacher, so I believe in the rigorous methodology of the scientific method and its strict adherence to observation, logic, and deductive and inductive reasoning. BUT WE’RE NOT DISCUSSING SOMETHING IN THE REALM OF SCIENCE!!! We’re talking about human abstract conceptions of what is morally right or wrong. It’s almost akin to discussing love. One of the principle foundations science accepts when “seeking the truth” is that it CAN NOT examine certain things like the supernatural or abstract concepts. They’re not in the realm of science, and thus, the practices and methodology to seek the truth do not apply.

    Now, unless you’re a complete hermit with no one who will be saddened by your death (which, by the way you’re arguing I can easily imagine….okay, okay, that joke went too far – I apologize, but you made fun of me first…), dying for your cause WILL be selfish. It will hurt the people you have left behind. I mean, if you really want to get down to it, it’s selfish in a certain perspective, just like Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker in a certain perspective (did Obi Wan Kenobi LIE to Luke Skywalker? depends on your point of view). Those brave WWII volunteers might have left children to grow up fatherless. That’s pretty selfish, in one perspective. Of course, it’s selfish of the children to think that way, because they owe their freedom and their country to the sacrifice of the father they never knew. But they’ll never know a father, and did that father really have the right to take that away from their child? I’m, at least, willing to look at both sides, but I think you have a definitive answer to that question….

    Are you just someone who lives for hedonistic pleasure? Is that all you can see in your life to the point where you look down on people who actually have ideas they strive for? Isn’t someone striving for what the believe in beautiful?

    WTH did this come from? I’m the one who said that:
    You are looking at the issue through the lens of ideals, which are nice to discuss and be philosophical about, but really do not promote any change or get anything done.
    I’m looking things at the issue pragmatically, balancing the ideals with the reality of, well, reality, and trying to get people to take action.

    And you counter with:
    The concept of having an ideal is not mutually exclusive to being able to act on it.

    So, you’re agreeing with me. Then, why do I still feel like you’re attacking me? I never said to abandon ideals. I was the one to say balance between ideals and reality. Your posts have been going on and on about ideals like a baptist pastor going on and on about the fires and brimstone of hell. You even admit:

    But to be fair, yes. I am not promoting any change. This is simply a response to your article and its contents. If there was any changed to be proposed, it would be coming from your end.

    And even though I have not directly said in my original editorial what actions and changes I feel are needed, the seeds for the readers to figure that out for themselves have been planted. As I told another commenter earlier, I, as a teacher, don’t like telling people exactly what to do – I like to give them the ideas to figure it out for themselves, but I still want them to take action – I just don’t want them to be a robot following my orders….

    Honestly, the more serious and riled up you get in this discussion (which is what I feel), the sillier and funnier I am going to (at least to try to) get. After all, winning an argument over the internet is just like winning the Special Olympics; in the end, you’re still retarded…..

    Natrone
  78. The points were ineffectual. That was all. I explained why in my second reply.

    “Without that biological innate empathy, humans would not be able to form societies, much less survive.”

    this is an excellent assertion, nothing wrong with it. It needs exploration, but it is not necessarily wrong at all. However I would have to use Latin if you said the following;

    ““Without that biological innate empathy, humans would not be able to form societies, much less survive. Therefore empathy is a direct precursor to the “might makes right” idea.” This is the implication that prompted this whole point of contention.

    Reason (and to some extent logic) are ways of seeing the world. I cant separate them as you appear to. I apologize. Everything outside of them shouldn’t be written off but regulated to a low priority in our lives.

    Also I think we have a responsibility to propagate logic in our lives and ourselves so that people aren’t as susceptible to Ad Populum reasoning. Culture can change. Societies can change. Not to be cliché but the change begins with you(me). I look forward to a time when religion is a considered a relic of man’s barbaric past. Where baseless fears of everything from “terrorists” to death threats are regulated to the proper prospective of .2 percent likelihood where they belong.

    I have never “won” and internet argument. Probably never will. I’m not trying to win – at least not in the way most people think.

    I win when I go onto slashdot and the people doubting the existence of global warming are shouted down.

    I when someone reads a post and stops to agree with the most rational and true post.

    I win when people talk and work out a consensus view together.

    I win when people post ideas and augments that make sense and put a point of view out there that I haven’t considered.


    You’re probably feeling attacked because I rally very hard against a couple of very specific ideas.

    “This is the way things are. Because things are this way it must be correct.”

    “Those who are in power decide what is just and moral”

    I don’t like these ideas. Not just because they are wrong but… I was raised in a cult. Abused and brainwashed for many years. I broke away, and now I fight the mental filth that spawned this culture wherever I see it. I wouldn’t mind being selfish and giving everything up if I could elevate the zeitgeist of this world and make sure these things went away for a long time.

    I thought that my point were civil enough to point out that I was attacking the ideas and not the propagator. I was wrong. I apologize.

    It was this fervor that was the content of my first post if you remember. How I feel about the content of the article itself is a different topic altogether. As I already mentioned I felt the evidence was unconnected and anecdotal, but that was not the focus of my stronger feelings.

    Aishin
  79. Possible repost. Website is being funky.

    “Writing real-life Death Notes is inappropriate…..”

    The points were ineffectual. That was all. I explained why in my second reply.


    “Without that biological innate empathy, humans would not be able to form societies, much less survive.”

    this is an excellent assertion, nothing wrong with it. It needs exploration, but it is not necessarily wrong at all. However I would have to use Latin if you said the following;

    ““Without that biological innate empathy, humans would not be able to form societies, much less survive. Therefore empathy is a direct precursor to the “might makes right” idea.” This is the implication that prompted this whole point of contention.

    Reason (and to some extent logic) are ways of seeing the world. I cant separate them as you appear to. I apologize. Everything outside of them shouldn’t be written off but regulated to a low priority in our lives.

    Also I think we have a responsibility to propagate logic in our lives and ourselves so that people aren’t as susceptible to Ad Populum reasoning. Culture can change. Societies can change. Not to be cliché but the change begins with you(me). I look forward to a time when religion is a considered a relic of man’s barbaric past. Where baseless fears of everything from “terrorists” to death threats are regulated to the proper prospective of .2 percent likelihood where they belong.

    I have never “won” and internet argument. Probably never will. I’m not trying to win – at least not in the way most people think.

    I win when I go onto slashdot and the people doubting the existence of global warming are shouted down.

    I when someone reads a post and stops to agree with the most rational and true post.

    I win when people talk and work out a consensus view together.

    I win when people post ideas and augments that make sense and put a point of view out there that I haven’t considered.


    You’re probably feeling attacked because I rally very hard against a couple of very specific ideas.

    “This is the way things are. Because things are this way it must be correct.”

    “Those who are in power decide what is just and moral”

    I don’t like these ideas. Not just because they are wrong but… I was raised in a cult. Abused and brainwashed for many years. I broke away, and now I fight the mental filth that spawned this culture wherever I see it. I wouldn’t mind being selfish and giving everything up if I could elevate the zeitgeist of this world and make sure these things went away for a long time.

    I thought that my point were civil enough to point out that I was attacking the ideas and not the propagator. I was wrong. I apologize.

    It was this fervor that was the content of my first post if you remember. How I feel about the content of the article itself is a different topic altogether. As I already mentioned I felt the evidence was unconnected and anecdotal, but that was not the focus of my stronger feelings.

    Aishin
  80. It seems my posts or name is now cosidered spam. So congrats, I’ll make this my last post.

    The points were ineffectual. That was all I wanted to say. I explained why in my second reply.

    “Without that biological innate empathy, humans would not be able to form societies, much less survive.”

    this is an excelent assertion, nothing wrong with it. It needs exploration, but it is not nessisarily wrong at all. However I would have to use latin if you said the following;

    ““Without that biological innate empathy, humans would not be able to form societies, much less survive. Therefore empathy is a direct precourser to the “might makes right” idea.” This is the implication that prompted this whole point of contention.

    Reason (and to some extent logic) are ways of seeing the world. I cant seperate them as you apear to. I apologize. Everything ouside of them shouldnt be written off but regulated to a low priority in our lives.

    Also I think we have a responsiblity to proprage reason in our lives and ourselves so that people arent as susptable to Ad Populum reasoning. Culture can change. Societies can change. Not to be clechie but the change begins with you(me). I look forward to a time when religion is a considered a relic of man’s barbaric past. Where baseless fears of everything from “terrorists” to death threats are regulated to the proper prospective of .2 percent likelyhood where they belong.

    I have never “won” and internet argument. Probably never will. Im not trying to win – at least not in the way most people think.

    I win when I go onto slashdot and the people doubting the existance of global warming are shouted down.

    I when when someone reads a post and stops to agree with the most rational and true post.

    I win when people talk and work out a consensus view together.

    I win when people post ideas and aguements that make sense and put a point of view out there that I havent considered.

    Youre probably feeling attacked because I ralley very hard against a couple of very specific ideas.

    “This is the way things are. Because things are this way it must be correct.”

    “Those who are in power decide what is just and moral”

    I dont like these ideas. Not just because they are wrong but… I was raised in a cult. Abused and brainwashed for many years. I broke away, and now I fight the mental filth that spawned this culture wherever I see it. I wouldnt mind being selfish and giving everything up if I could elevate the zietgiest of this world and make sure these things went away for a long long time.

    I thought that my point were civil enought to point out that I was attacking the ideas and not the propagator. I was wrong I aplogize.

    It was this fervor that was the content of my first post if you remember. How I feel about the content of the article itself is a difrent topic altogehter. As I already mentioned I felt the evidence was unconnected and anocedotal, but that was not the focus of my feelings.

    Aishin
  81. Aishin, you are too funny with how serious you take things.

    After just now talking with Omni about the situation, it seems that due to you posting several comments so quickly in a row, the automatic spam filter “spanked you.” I am enjoying some delicious irony in all this, because I have a feeling YOU think censorship/banning occurred or something (believe me, I was very confused to see all your posts disappear with only your “silenced” post “congratulating” me, I assume, for shutting you up).

    I bet you were gnashing your teeth at another “might makes right” – “Natron-e? couldn’t hold up his arguments against mine, so he pulled a power play and took away my ability to speak.” Well, you know what? It WAS a “might makes right,” but not in the way you think. It was a “might makes right” in terms of majority rules – people don’t want to see spam and spam bots filling up a comment thread in a blog, so Omni implemented a spam filter to stop that. YOU were just dumb enough to invoke that by making so many posts in too short of a time.

    “But, but, the WEBSITE was being stupid, not me! It wasn’t posting my comments – it was being slow. I hit submit, but I didn’t see it!” (insert several other lame excuses), you might cry out.

    This was part of the point of my original editorial. People will get so emotionally wound up over something that they fail to take proper action or, more accurately, will engage in improper action (i.e. the real life Death Notes, writing death threats, the allure of being famous to the point of dressing up like a slut and/or dancing like one, the humor in cursing, all my other examples that I used to make my point in my original editorial, AND YOU hitting “submit comment” too quickly and too often).

    You didn’t see your post on the website, even though you hit “submit comment”? Just save what you wrote in a .txt file and wait until morning or something. Did you HAVE to respond to me right away? I know there’s real life out there, and that you have more important things to do than to argue on the internet (or don’t you? 😛 )

    —–

    this is an excellent assertion, nothing wrong with it. It needs exploration, but it is not necessarily wrong at all. However I would have to use Latin if you said the following;
    ““Without that biological innate empathy, humans would not be able to form societies, much less survive. Therefore empathy is a direct precursor to the “might makes right” idea.” This is the implication that prompted this whole point of contention.

    So, can I now say: “Without that biological innate empathy, there wouldn’t be the natural “might makes right” that is inherent in all societies?” I mean, without that empathy, like-minded people wouldn’t be able to find each other and gather together to form a large majority “might”….

    Reason (and to some extent logic) are ways of seeing the world. I cant separate them as you appear to. I apologize. Everything outside of them shouldn’t be written off but regulated to a low priority in our lives.

    LOL – What are you, a Vulcan?

    Also I think we have a responsibility to propagate logic in our lives and ourselves so that people aren’t as susceptible to Ad Populum reasoning. Culture can change. Societies can change. Not to be cliché but the change begins with you(me).

    Why do you think I’m propagating Ad Populum? I’m just saying it’s there, and we have to deal with it. I’m just showing the effects of it, what it’s doing, and maybe (I’ll admit) playing a little “fight fire with fire:” let’s do our own ad populum to get rid of the old one. But, let’s look at what you say next – yes, culture and societies can change and the change STARTS with the individual, but when do you REALLY get that coveted paradigm shift such that the change is substantial, long-lasting, and not regulated to some small vocal minority? By Ad Populum. That’s just human nature…

    But, keep on fighting the good fight against, ad populum, sir!

    I win when I go onto slashdot and the people doubting the existance of global warming are shouted down.

    By who? Just by you? Or by everyone? If by everyone, because they agree with your logical arguments, then isn’t that “might makes right”?

    I win when people talk and work out a consensus view together.
    I win when people post ideas and augments that make sense and put a point of view out there that I haven’t considered.

    I very much agree with these, which is why I keep having discussions with you (even though my wife is getting a tad upset over how much time I’m dwelling on this and not giving her the attention she needs). In the end, though, (and you might not agree with me on this, but whatever), I say we’re both retarded for “wasting our time” 😛 (me, especially, because I now have an upset wife)…

    You’re probably feeling attacked because I rally very hard against a couple of very specific ideas.

    Or because you’re insulted me 😛 But let’s examine how you are rallying VERY HARD against a couple of specific ideas:

    I thought that my point were civil enough to point out that I was attacking the ideas and not the propagator. I was wrong. I apologize.

    HOW your phrase things will definitely impact whether or not someone feels like they’re being attacked. A lot of my jabs at you have been in jest, and I hope the silly way I write reflects that. You seem to have taken them in stride, but I cannot do the same, because nothing in the way you right makes me think you’re not taking this too seriously. By the way, apology accepted, but the best apology is to THINK before you write (or hit “Submit Comment” too many times) and maybe rephrase something so that it is less offensive, even if it doesn’t seem so offensive to you (remember that empathy thing you were talking about – yeah, yeah, this is the internet, but that shouldn’t stop you from trying)….

    “This is the way things are. Because things are this way it must be correct.”
    “Those who are in power decide what is just and moral”
    I don’t like these ideas. Not just because they are wrong but… I was raised in a cult. Abused and brainwashed for many years. I broke away, and now I fight the mental filth that spawned this culture wherever I see it.

    First of all, again, you are taking what I said way too far, especially with that first comment. Typically, I try to invoke the idea that, “this is the way things are – you gotta deal with it, especially if you are trying to change it – work within the system to find a solution.” Secondly, “those who are in power decide what is just and moral” is a fact of human society. I’m not saying “don’t fight this” or “this is the absolute way that no one should resist against,” but deal with reality.

    Ah, so now I see why you’re so passionate about the issue. You were raised in a cult. Well, that’s a VERY extreme side to the whole “might makes right.” A cult is nothing more than an fanatical society, so I can see why you rally against the notion. But, on the other extreme side is anarchy. So, I can sympathize (and maybe even empathize) for why (if ONLY given a choice between the two extremes), you’d side with anarchy.

    Still, your over-exuberance over the issue is precisely what this editorial is decrying (at least all you’re doing is writing a post on the internet, and not “acting out” something in the real world, as it were). You got so wound up on this, you hit “submit comment” too many times and effectively got spanked by the spam bot (I know I’m repeating myself, I’m a teacher: it’s what we do). People who get so angry that they need to write down the names of those they hate in a piece of stationary designed to emulate a fictional way of killing them: they’re idiots.

    So, don’t sarcastically congratulate me. What I’m wondering, though (especially as a teacher), is did you learn your lesson?

    Natrone
  82. Perhaps I do take things too seriously. I make it a goal to take honest blogs/articles that bring up points that interest me seriously, and honor them with honest contemplation. I have been accused of being a Vulcan before. I take that as a compliment, because the idea if idolizing irrationality is just too sad for me to accept.

    I’m glad you take such delight in my assumption that I had been banned.

    I can only assume that the Spam protection has more to do with the length of the text in the post then the frequency of which they are submitted seeing as how the intervals on the time stamps are as great as an hour in some instances. Hardly “Freaking out” if I may say so.

    “So, can I now say: “Without that biological innate empathy, there wouldn’t be the natural “might makes right” that is inherent in all societies?””

    No. That would be Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Just because societal dictation of morals follows empathic ability does not mean it is caused by said ability.

    Why do I think you are propagating Ad Populum Ideas? The following;
    “those who are in power decide what is just and moral is a fact of human society.”

    Its up to the person to decide. Its that simple. I’m not saying to go for anarchy myself. Its perfectly normal to follow societies rules to a point. the key here is-

    It is up to the person to decide.

    The individual should decide on his own what is moral and how much to follow what others may attempt to dictate to him. He who would blindly follow is not moral. That is my case.

    Okay. I think you are a little confused as to what Ad Populum means.

    Ad Populum is “argument to the people”. An argument that assumes a statement to be true because it is the majority view.

    That is to say it is not the belief itself that is fallacy, but that any argument that is assumed to be true BECAUSE it is consensus is a fallacy. The emphasis here is on the argument.

    Ad Populum cannot be whatever people hold as a consensus view at the time. What I dislike and argue against is the acceptance of this faulty argument. If tomorrow people could accurately recognize and ignore such arguments it would not be a logical fallacy such as Ad Populum. It wouldn’t be an argument at all.

    In the context of the slashdot example there is proper, documented, readily available evidence that global warming is effecting climate as we speak (I didn’t think I would have to point this out). When those, usually with a religious background, refute this they are given that evidence quite readily. I find this refreshing, not because it is the consensus view, nay they are still heatedly debating it in many circles, but because evidence is given so comprehensively and succinctly that it effectively shuts them up. This is not the work of might. It is the work of one of the few valid tools we have to understand our world. Logic.

    I am curious now as to how specifically you thought it was you who were being insulted personally and not your points that were being addressed.

    I’m not quite sure what I’m supposed to be learning here. Understand webpages better? Okay done. Wait more than an hour between posts… um sure. Regardless it has little to do with the validity of your or my points. I do not confuse fantasy with reality, and I stand up for what I believe in. That is all. I think comparing that with Death Note sensationalism is a bit of a stretch at best even if I was “over-exuberantly” hitting refresh here like a madman. Which I assure you is not the case. I’m actually supposed to be working.

    Give your wife my regards. Tell her that ideals matter.

    Aishin
  83. I make it a goal to take honest blogs/articles that bring up points that interest me seriously, and honor them with honest contemplation. I have been accused of being a Vulcan before. I take that as a compliment, because the idea if idolizing irrationality is just too sad for me to accept.

    This is your problem: you counter one extreme with another. You take it as a compliment that someone accuses you (mostly in jest, by the way) of being EXTREMELY logic (to the point of labeling you as a fictional race from a sci-fi series), and you offer as a reason the idea that the opposite extreme (idolizing irrationality) is a very, very bad thing in your eyes (and not even in a joking fashion). Why can’t there be a balance? If that’s how you honestly are, then I honestly feel sad for you. Must be the cult up-bringing (yeah, again, probably a joke I took too far, but I can’t help but find this whole thing funny…)…

    I can only assume that the Spam protection has more to do with the length of the text in the post then the frequency of which they are submitted seeing as how the intervals on the time stamps are as great as an hour in some instances.

    Nope – it’s time intervals and frequency of the post. There are spam bots that spam something once every hour or two. Omni, I would guess, just doesn’t imagine someone to carry on a conversation this long on his blogs. Although, to be honest, if we merely kept up our current pace of discussion, you probably wouldn’t have been spam blocked. It was the fact that you posted at 11:03 pm (PST), then 11:19 am, then 11:23 am that you got the automated spam messages. And then you felt you had to post AGAIN at 12:25 AM, which removed your comments and blocked you for awhile.

    Hardly “Freaking out” if I may say so.

    Then why be so “snippy” with your remarks:
    It seems my posts or name is now cosidered spam. So congrats,
    It seems that I am blocked from replying. Conrgratulations.
    Besides, you seem to freak out (by your own admission) enough due to my harmless “propagation” of ad populum (because, it’s not really promoting the idea) that it’s so easy for me to mistake you freaking out over being silenced or censored….

    Just because societal dictation of morals follows empathic ability does not mean it is caused by said ability..

    So do two things for me as a homework assignment (TEACHER MODE :P):
    1) Take me on the train that goes from empathic ability to societal dictation of morals (you said one follows the other – outline the path).
    2) Tell me what causes societal dictation of morals (HINT: there is more than one answer -in fact there are like a “billion of them- and one of those, to me, involves empathy)

    Why do I think you are propagating Ad Populum Ideas? The following;
    “those who are in power decide what is just and moral is a fact of human society.”

    Its up to the person to decide.

    This is quickly dissolving into a semantic argument. Look, it’s called perspective. Would you rather me to say: “those who are in power decide what is just and moral as perceived by the large majority whole of society”? When a person decides that what those in power deem as immoral to be moral, that doesn’t stop said person from being judge to be immoral. It’s all relative and subjective, in the end, anyway. Can’t you imagine years from now, our descendants will look back at our ideals and think how outdated and primitive we were in our thinking? Culture and society constantly changes. And if you’re SO arrogant as to think you can find the TRUE TRUTH (hmmm…Full Metal Alchemist….) about what is right or wrong, moral and immoral, logical and illogical such that these TRUE IDEALS will last the entirety of civilization, or even better yet, sentient thought across the universe and all cultures contained therein, then you have more problems than arguing with a school teacher on an anime blog…
    (see, I can be extreme and even insulting, but I try to be funny with my hyperboles)

    Ad Populum is “argument to the people”. An argument that assumes a statement to be true because it is the majority view.
    Ad Populum cannot be whatever people hold as a consensus view at the time. What I dislike and argue against is the acceptance of this faulty argument. If tomorrow people could accurately recognize and ignore such arguments it would not be a logical fallacy such as Ad Populum. It wouldn’t be an argument at all.

    Okay, so let me give you this hypothetical situation:
    Let’s pretend that tomorrow, the majority of the people of the world become much more enlightened and philosophical than they currently are (or possibly could ever be) and say to themselves, “You know what? We should really stop believing in things just because the majority of the people believe in them. That’s Ad Populum – that’s a logical fallacy.” Now, then said majority runs in to small group people who still think it’s correct to believe in things just because others say it is so. “No,” say the detractors of Ad Populum (who, I remind you are the majority of people), “You must not follow Ad Populum! Why? Because it’s a logical fallacy. Oh, you simple minded folks do not even understand what Ad Populum and logical fallacy even mean? Well let us explain” *SEVERAL LONG HOURS LATER* “WTF you cretins, you still don’t get it?!? Fine, just don’t do it because we say so!!!” And so the small group of minority agrees and believes ad populum is wrong to practice because the larger group told them so.

    You DO see the irony of this, right? Again, I’m just remarking on how ad populum is real, part of human nature, is probably isn’t going to go away any time soon (because humanity as a majority whole is dumb). I understand your ideal to remove it (or, I guess if I have to be so specific, because you tend to semantically pick apart every sentence I write, arguments that utilize it), so, again, I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.

    In the context of the slashdot example there is proper, documented, readily available evidence that global warming is effecting climate as we speak (I didn’t think I would have to point this out).

    Don’t bring an scientifically-observable phenomenon to a discussion table about what’s morally right and wrong. I’ve told you already (and you seemed to ignore it) that what we’re discussing here (“when people act things out TOO FAR”) is really outside the realm of science. I will admit that in some cases, morals and science mix (i.e. discussions on abortions), but topic of the editorial I wrote is certainly not one of them…

    I am curious now as to how specifically you thought it was you who were being insulted personally and not your points that were being addressed.

    *ahem*
    For Christ’s sake no! Ad Populum is not true! It cant be used! You’re a teacher for crying out loud its called a LOGICAL FALLACY for a reason.

    Here, I felt you were calling into question here my ability to be a teacher…

    If by looking at things “differently” you mean “Logically” then yes we do see things differently.

    Here, while I was trying to play nice by saying “you say to-MAY-to,” and I say “to-MAH-to,” you basically told me, “no, you’re just being illogical – it’s to-MAY-to…”

    And again, I probably would not have felt insulted or attacked if the tone of your post went on a diet (i.e. “lightened up” – GET IT? yeah, yeah, bad pun) and included some humor in it. I appreciate a good ribbing, every now and then, as long as I don’t sense any maliciousness in the jokes. To be honest, I don’t really sense any maliciousness from you, either, but the way your are phrasing your arguments can be offensive not just to me, but to other people. So, in one perspective, I’m trying to educate you on the art of arguing without angering the person you are arguing with (you probably don’t care, since this is the all powerful internet which shields you in the shadow of anonymity – your trollops into slashdot are evidence enough for me on that assumption)….

    I do not confuse fantasy with reality…
    I think comparing that with Death Note sensationalism is a bit of a stretch

    I think pretty much everyone else who read the article completely understands the connection between someone who confuses fantasy with reality and real-life Death Notes. Oh, wait, sorry, did an “ad populum” there, didn’t I? 🙂

    Give your wife my regards. Tell her that ideals matter.

    You know, it was actually funny, because we just recently had a discussion over dinner about college degrees. Since going to college is all about opening as many doors and opportunities to a successful life (as opposed to pigeon-holing yourself down one fate that might end up with your pension being taken away from you), we were trying to figure out which type of degree would provide an avenue to the most possible jobs or careers. I mean, honestly, what can a person with a degree in French language do? Either teach French or translate it, and in regards to translating it, you could have other better degrees (M.Ba. if you’re translating for business or Poli.Sci. if you’re doing international politics) and just make sure you know the French language as a skill to pad your resume.

    Our conclusion: the engineering degree. Because the world cares more about building something practical than the ideals behind it that are taught in the classroom. For me personally, I don’t think it’s fair to say that practical reality is MORE important than ideals. I just like to have a healthy balance between the two. And you, fine sir, seem to like living in your little cave of ideals, shouting at the passerby’s about what they should be THINKING while they’re too busy DOING something with their lives….

    I do applaud you for it, but like one commenter (basically) asked me in this very editorial, “What do you want me to do about it?”

    Natrone
  84. Aah, the last example dumbfounded me a little, but I guess it’s the question of local laws and morals (and let me tell you one thing – for how much America poses as a free country, there sure seem to be a lot of rules forbidding something. But I digress).

    I do think people should be allowed to have various fantasies, even if they include doing things that are inacceptable. Because sometimes you just feel so powerless and angry and frustrated you need to vent it out somehow. Of course it’s sad, that those kids can’t think of no better way to do that, but it’s still better than bottling it in.
    But also, on the other hand it’s important to discuss this with children (I’m intentionaly using the word ‘discussion’, because the older the kids are the more suited the discussion is as a communication medium).
    But things like expulsion – that seems a little harsh – never forget how much of a social stigma that can be.

    Dorota
  85. You’re absolutely right. I used a false dichotomy there to justify my belief in my idolization of logic when really it needs no justification.

    Logic is the best tool we have to understand our world. all else can be subjectively interpreted. Empirical evidence and reason based there on cannot. It is especially necessary in discussion of this type.

    “Then why be so “snippy” with your remarks…”

    Okay you got me. Your verbatim replaying of my sarcasm indicates that I was mad with rage. Moving on.

    Yes I would rather you say; “When a person decides that what those in power deem as immoral to be moral, that doesn’t stop said person from being judge to be immoral.” Instead of “those who are in power decide what is just and moral”.

    They are different sentiments entirely. One seems to advocate doing what the powers that be tell you to. The other says think for yourself. This world has a lot of complex moral questions that people get presented with whether they like it or not. And from what I see people are just doing what they are told instead of figuring out how to live themselves. So it must be up to someone to educate and raise awareness. If only the idea is present in -say an article about current events- it may help to raise awareness.

    “Okay, so let me give you this hypothetical situation…”

    Your example doesn’t make a whole lot of sense because a group that understand what a logical fallacy is and why it is bad would not propagate it, lest they would be identified as hypocrites.

    Yes people believing in stupid things is real or human. I know that even in the best case scenario that cannot be educated away. But that doesn’t mean that we should do nothing. I don’t preach despair.

    “Don’t bring an scientifically-observable phenomenon…”
    I’m only mentioning this slashdot example as a reference to you request for clarification here:
    “By who? Just by you? Or by everyone? If by everyone, because they agree with your logical arguments, then isn’t that “might makes right”?”

    “Here, I felt you were calling into question here my ability to be a teacher…”

    If indeed it was a jest as you have alluded to, then I readily retract those statements. However if you are a science teacher that readily advocates faulty logic, then yes ability should be called into question. Don’t take it personally.

    You are correct, here I was being short. To imply subjectivity where none applies is a cop out as old as time. It made me somewhat annoyed.

    You’re right I don’t care to some extent. But its not the anonymity of the internet that causes me not to care, infact id be quite happy to talk to you VOIP if you wish. Its the simple fact that I’m not going to coddle people, especially if they should know better. This is not a direct reference to you, before you explode. However you have to get used, as writer to people taking issue with what believe and learn to let it roll off your back without getting personal about it. Its unprofessional if you don’t.

    Before you begin, yes I have my own blog. I have written for webpages before. As aside, I have never actually posted on slashdot before, I just read there to soak in the conflicting views.

    “I think pretty much everyone else who read the article completely understands the connection between someone who confuses fantasy with reality and real-life Death Notes. ”

    NO. This IS NOT actually an Ad Populum argument. I don’t know if its an argument at all actually.

    I would be if you said, “(person x) should understand the connection between someone who confuses fantasy with reality and real-life Death Notes because everyone else who read the article does.” THAT would be Ad Populum.

    I agree with the engineering sentiments. Of all the ideas I have I only have one that I think can change the world and shape the very way future generations will interact with life and each other, and its based on building something.

    What do I want you to do… Learn and propagate accepting things on logic and evidence as opposed to how you feel or what you are told. The world would be much more beautiful that way.

    Aishin
  86. Logic is the best tool we have to understand our world. all else can be subjectively interpreted. Empirical evidence and reason based there on cannot. It is especially necessary in discussion of this type.

    Logic is subject to interpretation, at times, as well. That’s part of bringing up the whole “good of the many outweigh the good of the few?” conundrum. With the whole Star Trek and Vulcan reference (did you even see Star Trek the movie II, III, and IV?), the idea was that Spock found it highly illogical for Kirk to rescue him and place the good of the few (or one, in Spock’s case) over the good of the many. I mean, the Enterprise got destroyed due to those actions!!!

    How about this for another example? In a hostage situation, where terrorists are holding innocent civilians captive in exchange for the release of terrorist leaders, what is the LOGICALS course of action?

    1) Submit the terrorist demands (and be viewed as weak so that more terrorism occurs)?
    2) Refuse (so the hostages get killed)?
    3) Send in an elite-commando squad to rescue the hostages (which doesn’t always work out as nicely as portrayed in the movies)?

    You are ILLOGICALLY praising logic as the be-all-end-all to EVERYTHING. That’s arrogant and irrational, in and of itself. I wish you could see that, but apparently, you cannot.

    I mean, if you really believe logic to be so-powerful, then please, logically explain love. Explain how love works, in all its forms (from the benign love of two young people frolicking in the meadows to the grotesque love of S&M to the bizarre love of incest to the normal-but-frustrating “why do the good girls almost always end up with the bad boys?”).

    Yes I would rather you say; “When a person decides that what those in power deem as immoral to be moral, that doesn’t stop said person from being judge to be immoral.” Instead of “those who are in power decide what is just and moral”.
    They are different sentiments entirely.

    They’re not different sentiments ENTIRELY, one just is simply shorter than the other. “Those who are in power decide what is just and moral,” doesn’t close the door on a person rising up to decide what’s moral for themselves. Do you REALLY need to have everything spelled out for you in completely correct semantics like some law, bill, or contract written in that god-awful legalese? Hell, you’ve admitted yourself that you’ve been terse with your statements, when I called YOU out on it (mostly because you’ve been calling me out on it from your very first reply): You are correct, here I was being short.

    So it must be up to someone to educate and raise awareness. If only the idea is present in -say an article about current events- it may help to raise awareness.

    I have raised awareness. I’ve raised awareness on what this editorial was really FOCUSING on: people who act out anime too far. There are some readers, I’m sure (and verified by the comments) who didn’t realize how bad it was. You’ve just taken us on a tangent, with your claim that I’m propagating Ad Populum…

    Your example doesn’t make a whole lot of sense because a group that understand what a logical fallacy is and why it is bad would not propagate it, lest they would be identified as hypocrites.

    OMG! Do you REALLY think that there exists a perfect group of humans who have never fallen into the trap of hypocrisy!? Are you going to claim to be one of these perfect individuals who has never made a hypocritical statement!? I will readily admit that I’ve been a hypocrite before (and probably still am in certain statements). THAT’S BLOODY HUMAN NATURE!!! (see? I can freak out, too!)

    Yes people believing in stupid things is real or human. I know that even in the best case scenario that cannot be educated away. But that doesn’t mean that we should do nothing. I don’t preach despair.

    I do, because that’s the reality of things, and my take on it is that if people really realize how bad the situation is (after all, most often, people are living in blissful ignorance), then they’re more likely to do something about it. You seem to think that if someone is told how bad it is, they’ll just shrug and say, “Oh well, that’s life,” and remained imprisoned. Both are valid LOGICAL views, and it really depends on the person receiving the sermon to see which path they go down….

    However if you are a science teacher that readily advocates faulty logic, then yes ability should be called into question. Don’t take it personally.

    Why does me saying faulty logic exists and we have to deal with the real-world effects of people employing faulty logics (WHICH WILL NEVER CHANGE) suddenly translate to I’m ADVOCATING it? Suddenly, I’m thinking of one of your Latin terms…..

    Its the simple fact that I’m not going to coddle people, especially if they should know better. This is not a direct reference to you, before you explode.

    Sorry, too late! 😛

    You’re not coddling me, you’re antagonizing me. It’s one thing for me to ask you after I wrote this editorial, “Was it a good editorial, Mr. Logic-Is-EVERYTHING-and-all-my-arguments-are-correct-because-they-are-based-in-logic? Were there any faulty arguments or logical fallacies in my editorial, sir?” and you responded with, “Uhhh….no….it was a….uh….fine…piece of writing…” That would be coddling. No, you took the time, effort, and energy (to the point of being assessed as spam by the automated spam filter) to come at me again and again. YOU think I should know better, so YOU’RE attacking ME. You really need to come to grips with your own emotions. That’s why I’m getting frustrated at you – you don’t even realize what you’re doing – you’re being ignorant of what you’re really feeling or, at the very least, the effects of your words and actions….

    However you have to get used, as writer to people taking issue with what believe and learn to let it roll off your back without getting personal about it. Its unprofessional if you don’t.

    I have no problem with people taking issue with what I wrote, as long as they respond nicely about it. And even if they are not nice, I have “professionally” ignored many trolls and those “TLDR” comments (would you have preferred I ignored your first comment?), and I respond to comments I feel might bring about a healthy discussion. But, this is starting to become unhealthy, because we’re straying further and further from what the editorial was really about (you have to agree with that, right?). You’re so caught up in your semantics of what each and every phrase I write means AND your “I was raised in a cult so I have a personal issue with how you are making your arguments using a latin term that half the people of the United States don’t even know what it means” that you probably don’t realize that YOU are making it personal FOR YOURSELF!

    And WTF? Just because I’m the writer in an anime blog, that solely places the responsibility of being professional on me, and you as a commenter get to say whatever you want without any bounds? You admitted yourself that you write a blog, so why don’t you exercise some professionalism in what you write? You really want to know what the problem is when we start talking about “professionalism” here? YOUR professionalism probably differs from MY professionalism. In MY professionalism, I can use anecdotal evidence (provided it’s funny) and I can insult my readers (provided they get the joke). That’s my writing style, and if you don’t like it, then all you’re having a problem with is how I write NOT what I write (which is what you’re disguising your beefs with me as). You keep saying that I’m writing erroneously about Ad Populum or whatever, but in the end, you probably just don’t like the tone and manner in which I make my arguments.

    Although, now through these conversations, I’m sure you have a beef with WHAT I’ve written and my feelings that logic is not the be-all-end-all of everything.

    NO. This IS NOT actually an Ad Populum argument. I don’t know if its an argument at all actually.

    Holy geez….IT WAS A JOKE! Are you really blind to emoticons? Let me repost what I said to elicit that response:

    I think pretty much everyone else who read the article completely understands the connection between someone who confuses fantasy with reality and real-life Death Notes. Oh, wait, sorry, did an “ad populum” there, didn’t I? 🙂

    Seriously, do one of two things with your life in order to succeed (and by “succeed” I mean what the majority of society views as success in life, and maybe not what YOU view as success) : 1) be a politician or 2) be a lawyer. You’re ability to continue to push your agenda without ever looking at the other side is perfect for politics and your nit-picking of semantics is perfect for law. Do THAT instead of just philosophizing about ideals, which won’t really get you anywhere in life. Years from now, when you’re retired at 40 or 50 instead of 60, you’ll thank me for it…

    What do I want you to do… Learn and propagate accepting things on logic and evidence as opposed to how you feel or what you are told. The world would be much more beautiful that way.

    Sorry. That sounds boring. I’d much rather be writing about my view on anime and its fandom and using what evidence I find to be the most pertinent, helpful to my argument, AND funny (be it logical or anecdotal in its nature) in order to support what I’ve written.

    Natrone
  87. Yes it seems the conversation has degenerated (I would prefer to think of it as elevated) to a discussion of ideas that the original article barely touched on.

    Now you seem to be getting quite worked up to the point where you attempt to be characterizing my motivations and emotion behind my statements.

    I’ve been thinking about what my goal here is, and has been, in trying my best to point out illogical arguments and combat certain ideas. We haven’t received many other replies so I cant say that there is a third party that I might sway.

    The question is how much do I want you to understand the importance of believing things that are actually true, and not just the accepted idea, and what logic is.

    It turns out quite a bit. You are in a position to help and influence many people, both in writing and teaching. Its worth a little frustration on my part.

    However I believe I came about it the wrong way. The best path would have been to counter with examples and evidence of my own. The problem was I started as a critique of the original piece, for that is the nature of comments.

    I am not going to guess what your motivations might be as that would be highly presumptuous of me.

    I beginning to think that, at this point, VOIP is required as you seem to be, as I mentioned, misinterpreting my tone and motivations. And I as well seem to be blind to your jests. So I will end the text debate here.

    If we are to continue this in another venue, would you agree with the following summary of your last post;

    _
    Logic is open to interpretation.

    Explain these complex examples with Logic.

    There is no distinction between implying that power decides morals, and people decide morals.

    My musings on Death Note is considered raising awareness.

    People are hypocritical therefore it is valid to say they could be hypocritical on mass

    I preach despair.

    I was only implying that Ad populum exists, not that it is a valid argument.

    You are antagonizing me.

    You need to come to grips with your emotions.

    If I don’t perceive people as being nice, I take issue with what they write.

    You are taking it personally.

    You probably just don’t like the tone and manner in which I make my arguments

    You don’t get my joke.

    Become a Lawyer or a Politician.

    Being logical means not being funny or anecdotal in my writing.
    _

    I would be quite happy to address these on Google Talk. Preferably with a microphone using voice. I can be reached hexus13th@gmail.com. Hope to hear from you.

    Aishin
  88. I beginning to think that, at this point, VOIP is required as you seem to be, as I mentioned, misinterpreting my tone and motivations. And I as well seem to be blind to your jests. So I will end the text debate here.

    I have neither the time nor the inclination to talk to you “live” over the internet. Part of the reason why I partake in internet discussions over comment threads and message forums is for the sake of convenience. I’m a working adult (although, as a teacher, I do have my summers off, although with my paltry pay, I do try to find part-time work over the summer to help make ends meet) with a family to take care of. If you notice, I’ve only responded back to you a certain times of the day, because that’s all I can afford. Trying to coordinate a convenient time for us to have what I view as pointless discussion (even though YOU think it’s meaningful) is a waste of time for me. I still have to write the next editorial!

    Furthermore, my attempts to characterize your emotions and motivations behind your statement were mostly in jest (i.e. the cult-upbring “going-too-far” jokes). What IS real is the effect of how you speak. When I say you were antagonizing or attacking me, I’m almost 100% sure (almost, because this IS the internet) that you don’t even realize it or mean it (I DID say before that I think you’re not trying to be malicious). But the result is the same. And, so, my prerogative in this debacle of a debate has devolved (or evolved, as you seem to see it) into showing you how to communicate in a text-format WITHOUT pissing off the other person. Thus, going to VOIP is “copping out” and loses what little motivation I have in keeping up this discussion.

    You seem to have a hard time reading subtle jokes in a text-format, and you seem to not realize when you writing in an insulting manner in a text-format. It’s a damn good thing you don’t actually respond in slashdot.

    would you agree with the following summary of your last post;

    Logic is open to interpretation. Yes and no, it depends on your point of view 😛

    Explain these complex examples with Logic. Oh, yes, please do…especially the love on, but the terrorist one is more “practical”

    There is no distinction between implying that power decides morals, and people decide morals. WTF? No. Never said that (you’re probably taking things too far there). I DID mention how the “POWER” that decides morals comes from people (in power)….

    My musings on Death Note is considered raising awareness. Yes. Some people didn’t even KNOW about the real-life Death Notes at all!!!

    People are hypocritical therefore it is valid to say they could be hypocritical on mass I don’t like the “therefore.” People as individuals CAN be hypocrites. A mass of people can follow a hypocritically idea. However, no individual can possibly live their life without any hypocrisy at one time.

    I preach despair.I preach reality, and a lot of reality is despair. When I get a dumb kid who thinks they don’t need a high school diploma, because they’re going to be a sports star or a rap star or a drug dealer, I don’t necessarily encourage them by painting a picture of rainbows and lollipops for them. I say, “I’m glad you have that dream and I wish you luck if you really want to pursue it, but if things don’t work out, you will definitely need this high school degree. Here’s some things to think about, in terms of how it might not work out” (and then I “preach” REAL despair)

    I was only implying that Ad populum exists, not that it is a valid argument. Yep. I know it’s a logical fallacy, but humans are logically fallible, so Ad Populum and the effects of it will always be around. Therefore, I see no problem in explaining why something exists (as opposed to JUSTIFY why it exists) by citing something that is Ad Populum in nature. Same applies for actions. I could explain why someone did something (and not JUSTIFY it) by Ad Populum. Reasons are not the same as excuses.

    You are antagonizing me.OH HELL YA!!! You might not be doing it on purpose, but you are pushing my buttons OMFGWTF@#!@)(*%$!!!!!!!111111111

    You need to come to grips with your emotions. This might be going too far, but by your own admissions, you had a traumatic experience with your cult upbringing. By bringing this to the table, you cannot state as a human being (not a Vulcan) that some emotional baggage from that is not tainting how you handle your arguments, what tone you write with, and/or possibly how wound up you are getting on the inside, even though you might feel calm and collected on the outside.

    If I don’t perceive people as being nice, I take issue with what they write.Somewhat of a simplification here. How about? If I perceive people as writing NICELY (i.e. with nice intentions), then I will respond back. However, if they are not writing nicely (and I don’t do the mature thing and ignore them), then I will take issue with how they write. Communication is vital in human society, and too many people do NOT know how to communicate properly ESPECIALLY on this stupid internet.

    You are taking it personally. You might not realize it, but I think you are, especially when you look at your anti-Ad Populum stance in the context of your cult-upbringing.

    You probably just don’t like the tone and manner in which I make my argumentsI’ll admit I’m going out on a limb here, but you probably take some umbrage over how casual I am, with my jokes and stuff. I’m probably not serious enough with my discussions, which probably frustrates you, at least I would presume as such (and, yes, I am presuming with some evidence, like your freak outs).

    You don’t get my joke. You don’t. At least you don’t properly convey you do…

    Become a Lawyer or a Politician. Yep. Would be a good career choice for you. Would put all those skills you are harnessing at me into something practically useful that could make you decent money and give you a nice lifestyle. Better than being a teacher….

    Being logical means not being funny or anecdotal in my writing. GAH! NO! Don’t know how you jumped this far (although, I do have to admit there is that school of thought that says anecdotal evidence cannot logically be generalized). Some of the best logicians who point out the contradictions or ironies are life do so to be intentionally funny. You, however, have yet to achieve this skill (which is incredibly helpful in making friends and interacting positively with human society.

    I have no problems with you NOT replying back to this (as you said you would end the text debate here). I don’t have time to do VOIP (I can write incredibly fast – this reply took me less than 8 minutes, which is why I prefer text communication). But, I decided to respond to each and every issue you brought up, because I’m stupid…..er…that is, I mean to say I don’t want there to be any misconceptions in how I presented myself.

    Natrone
  89. I agree with you 100% on what you had to day. It seems that anime is now taking the blame for why violent actions occure. I often question what goes through these peoples minds that points the finger at somthing rather then admit fault on there behalf. I’m also curious about whats goes through the minds of the people that agree with this twisted logic and reason.

    Azar
  90. I absolutely adore Death Note ^-^
    It’s deffinitely my all time favorite anime (well, that and Code Geass)
    If I had to choose a side, either L or Kira’s, I honestly don’t know which one to choose. I without a doubt loved Light from the beginning, and thought L and I had numeruous aspects in common; but it wasn’t until L’s death scene that I realized how brilliant L really was. I despise Mello and Near and see them as nothing more than pathetic attempts of L clones. All in all, I think Death Note is one of the greatest animes 🙂

    Kira
  91. i completely agree, i do watch death note and i myself helping out on making a different ending to the manga with a friend of mine. i do understand why someone would write something in a death note but if i had a death note (fake) it wouldn’t be used, maybe 1 or 2 names if i’m REALLY upset. so the owning of a death note in general is absurd. i AM going to get one for a friend of mine though, because he would think it funny.

    can't tell
  92. This world is cruel and rotten and all the evil people deserve to die whether it be now or soon because we all know that all hell will break loose soon.

    P.s. I have heard alot of news about kids writing classmates names in a Death Note. This might actually not be a bad idea as it shows that this child is indeed being attacked by the kids in question or bullied in other ways. In my opinion if kids want to do this then let them. I am definently going to be doing this myself with other people who hate me. And maybe i might deal out some of my own Rightous Judjement.

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