Twenty years ago in a.t.b 1997, V.V. had asked Charles if he had learned anything from being Emperor, and Charles’s answer was that everyone is a liar. When V.V. had then reminded Charles of their contract, Charles had affirmed that they’re going to kill the gods and destroy the lies in the world. Back in the present, Rolo finds Lelouch still kneeling over Shirley’s body at the train station and mentions how dangerous it was that Shirley’s memories returned. Lelouch realizes that this means Rolo was the one who killed Shirley, and Rolo confirms it, saying that he has to eliminate Lelouch’s enemies. Instead of being angry though, Lelouch compliments Rolo on a job well done and proposes that they go destroy the Geass cult and the source of Geass. Rolo objects to the idea, but Lelouch feels that they can’t keep running away and suggests that it’s for the sake of their happiness. Shirley’s body is discovered sometime after the two leave, and Suzaku eventually learns from a coroner that she died of multiple organ failure from blood loss and shooting herself. He’s still in shock over how she committed suicide by the time of the funeral, and her friends are as well, including Nina who finds out from Milly. Nina cries for Shirley despite not having gotten along with her, and Kanon comforts her and suggests that she had been envious of Shirley.

Meanwhile, on Penglai Island, C.C. is talking telepathically with someone again about how Lelouch left her there, and she worries that Lelouch might have forgotten their contract. When Lelouch finally does contact her, he tells her about using the Zeroth Squad to go destroy the cult. C.C. is surprised that Lelouch would want to destroy the cult rather than make use of them since the people there aren’t armed but are instead just researching Geass. Lelouch’s insistence on destroying them leads C.C. to question what happened, so Lelouch explains how Shirley had been at the mercy of Geass until the very end and how she had been killed by it. This leads C.C. to realize that Lelouch wants to prevent this tragedy from ever happening again as his atonement, and Lelouch feels that only one person having the power of Geass is enough. Since Lelouch intends to erase Rolo from this world, C.C. wonders if he’s going to erase her too, so he responds that he couldn’t even if he wanted to since she’s immortal. When C.C. points out that V.V. is immortal as well, Lelouch feels that it’ll be fine just to put V.V. out of business. He then asks C.C. about having been at the top of the cult, but she feels that she had just been a figurehead, unlike V.V. currently. Regardless, she notes that she and Lelouch were accomplices, and this leads to Lelouch trying to get her to confirm the contents of their contract and what she wishes for. C.C., however, declines to tell him because it has nothing to do with the military operation.

Sometime later, V.V. is wondering if the Emperor knew about Cornelia’s movements when he receives a transmission from Jeremiah. The person on the other end turns out not to be Jeremiah but rather Lelouch, and he demands to know if V.V. was the one who kidnapped Nunnally during the battle in Tokyo. V.V. confirms that it was indeed him and figures out since Lelouch is asking, it means that Lelouch’s memories have returned. He tries to get Lelouch to give C.C. up, but Lelouch only cares about how it’s become war between them now. V.V. isn’t worried about that because he thinks that by the time Lelouch comes, the cult will have gone to another location, however at that very moment, their underground base is attacked. As it turns out, Lelouch had been transmitting to V.V. from right outside the base, but he wanted V.V. to think that he was in Area 11 in order to delay V.V. from escaping. The attack prompts V.V. to order his men to put their research data onto a transport and to prepare a certain something for him because he intends to personally go out and fight. As the massacre of everyone there begins, some members of the Black Knights find it odd that all the people they’re killing are unarmed. Lelouch, however, tells his men that everyone is guilty until proven innocent and that Britannia was committing blasphemy against life by trying to research immortal soldiers here. One of the victims of this is Bartley, and as he lays dying, he sees C.C. and thinks that it would have been better not to have messed with an immortal woman.

While the fighting is going on, Diethard is at Penglai telling Li Xingke and Toudou about how Zero is off destroying a Britannian research facility. Toudou feels that with Saudi Arabia suppressed, they need to hurry up the ratification of the United States charter, and Xingke reports that Poland and Italy have become their allies. Afterwards, Diethard assigns Sayoko to follow Ougi because Ougi has been acting strange and hiding something. As it turns out, Villetta is at this moment trying to find a flight to China because she feels Ougi is her only option now that Jeremiah has been taken in by Lelouch. Back at the Geass cult base, a Black Knight soldier encounters some children who have Geass powers, and when they start controlling him, Rolo arrives and executes everyone involved. Rolo is still fiercely loyal to Lelouch, but what he doesn’t realize is that Lelouch intends to kill him with the bomb attached to the Vincent to make him atone for Shirley. What messes up Lelouch’s plans a little is the appearance of V.V. piloting the Siegfried. The Black Knight Knightmares quickly surround the Siegfried and start firing on it, but their weapons are ineffective against its electromagnetic armor. When Jeremiah even gets involved, V.V. points out that Jeremiah had hated Zero, however Jeremiah feels that if he’s to serve Zero, it’s for Marianne’s sake. Hearing that name infuriates V.V.

Lelouch then decides to send Rolo against V.V. with the intent of taking out both of them at once with the bomb on the Vincent. Although Rolo does manage to get up close to the Siegfried, before Lelouch can activate the bomb, the Siegfried gets hit with cannon fire from below. The culprit is none other than Cornelia using an Akatsuki she had hot-wired, and her entering the battle means that Rolo gets to live. Cornelia had damaged the Siegfried’s armor, and when both she and Lelouch fire on it together, the Siegfried goes down. Back underground, the remaining members of the Geass cult are ready to escape via a secret train to the EU, but in their way is C.C. and her Akatsuki. Before blowing the train up, C.C. apologizes for her sin of neglecting them and says that the genealogy of Geass ends there. Meanwhile, unaware of what’s going on, Kallen is back in Japan talking with Nunnally about Lelouch when Suzaku interrupts them so that he can speak with Kallen alone. He tells her about Shirley’s death, and despite the official assessment of suicide, he suspects that Lelouch is guilty of killing her. Suzaku also thinks that Lelouch is Zero again, and when Kallen claims that she doesn’t know Zero’s true identity, Suzaku decides to use the Refrain drug on her because he doesn’t want to create any further tragedy.

By now, V.V. has escaped from the Siegfried’s cockpit and has crawled his way to the room that has a giant door with the Geass symbol on it. That door is now open, and the Emperor of Britannia is on the other side. V.V. is glad to see that he can depend on the relationship with his brother, and when the Emperor asks, V.V. reveals that sending an assassin after Lelouch is what led to this retaliation. V.V. feels that the upside is that they now know Lelouch is Zero again and that he’s been deceiving Nunnally, but the Emperor notes that his brother is lying again. Lelouch eventually finds V.V. in this room, however the moment the Shinkirou gets close, something similar to what happened on Kaminejima happens again. It transports Lelouch to the Sword of Akasha where his father is waiting, and the Emperor declares to his son that the time has come for redemption.

Preview/Gundam 00 Commercial

In light of the fact that the preview for next week consisted of only a single shot, two of the preview images above are from the new Gundam 00 Series 2 commercial. Looks like Setsuna let his hair grow out a little..

As for this episode, it was surprising at first to see Lelouch let Rolo live even though Rolo outright admitted to killing Shirley. Putting aside the fact that anyone else in that position probably would have retaliated against Rolo, I have my doubts about whether that was the smart thing to do. It made sense that Lelouch wanted to make use of Rolo one last time, but with all the variables in play, the chances of everything happening exactly according to plan were pretty low, and Rolo did indeed survive. I suspect that Rolo will do something later that will make Lelouch regret not killing him when he had the chance.

The other big focus of the episode was on how the Black Knights were massacring everyone and how the members weren’t happy about it. It’s very uncomfortable to see them acting like the people they’re trying to bring down, and all the grumbling about it suggests that there’d be a mutiny of sorts if Zero keeps asking his men to do this kind of stuff. Add to that how Diethard is having Sayoko follow Ougi, and it’s very possible that internal conflict could cause the Black Knights to break up – at the very least it would severely weaken the organization. You’d think that Lelouch would be more cognizant of this sort of stuff, but it seemed like he was too blinded by his quest to destroy the Geass cult.

This episode also gave us more reason to hate Suzaku since it now appears that he’s going to use Refrain on Kallen in order to get her to reveal if she knows the true identity of Zero. It is not a completely unheard of interrogation tactic, but it does strip away any right Suzaku has to the moral high ground. The problem is of course that that’s an integral part of the good side of his character – you may remember that back in episode 13 of the first series, he said that results obtained from doing something the wrong way were meaningless – and that shows how much he’s changed. The more Suzaku subscribes to Lelouch’s way of doing things, the easier it is to prefer Lelouch over him because (for better or worse) at least Lelouch is trying to change the status quo.

Next week will hopefully finally unravel some of the mysteries behind Geass and C.C. since it appears Lelouch and C.C. will enter “The World of C.” Maybe they’ll meet Mao there…


  1. shocking, cant wait to see the sub/full summary!! very interested in what is meant by “shame he didn’t die” :< if he doesn’t die, that could be problematic, right?

  2. R.I.P officialy Shirely. OMG, C.C and Marriane!! Marriane is very pretty when she was young. That’s totally unfair, Suzaku, lying and doing that to Kallen! So C.C seems to be a bit sad killing her former minions and the OotBK’s loyalty to Zero is wavering…

  3. I’m reserving judgement on Suzaku until next week, since he might not do it or is interrupted, but just for threatening to drug my favourite character with something she loathes with all of her heart? Screw you, Suzaku! (Yeah, reasonable I am not.)

  4. Um, didn´t only Suzaku *threaten* Kallen with injecting her with Refrain? As far as I´ve seen, he hasn´t done so yet.

    Lelouch, OTOH, *did* order and execute the massacre of everybody in the Geass complex.

    So I´d think a bit of restraint on the “ZOMG, Suzaku SUXXORS Lelouch PWNS lolololololroflcopter!!!!1111oneoneeleven” front should be exercised.

  5. >Shame that Rolo didn’t die.

    >Reason #127846 To Hate Suzaku

    that’s so superficial. Even Code Geass, being not exactly the most profound show out there, doesn’t deserve such a superficial approach. really.

    It’s completely Lulu’s fault that Rolo did what he did. He should have just stayed the hell away from school and his “friends” alltogether. Rebellion isn’t some part time job you do while playing school comedy at the same time.

    And it’s so funny how everybody hates Suzaku while Lulu isn’t even the slightest bit better (at beginning he was worse in fact, using everybody as his pawns).
    And just this episode he killed a bunch of innocent people projecting his own fault onto them. Such a great, likeable guy 😉

  6. lol @ Magnus: You copy and pasted that from animesuki, didn’t you? It doesn’t really fit (yet) since no one here is saying Lelouch is better than Suzaku and only a couple of people are saying that Suzaku sucks.

  7. Suzaku! you’re not a man! (almost at Kazuki levels of Dragonaut infamy but without the gay scar patch)

    When will Kallen be saved from the clutches of that evil monster?!

  8. @minikul

    You’re forgetting that to Geass fans whatever Lulu does is a-ok! He could order the death of a bunch of britannian babies and the fans (well fangirls) would love him just the same.

    It’s called bias, this show is full of it. What most of these blinded fans haven’t probably realized yet is that Lulu and Suzaku, for the most part, are two sides of the same coin if you will. And as the show moves along they’re getting more and more the same.

  9. GP: Yep, but that’s just sad. While I critize Code Geass a lot, this is one of the parts that’s interesting about it – no black and white. And seems like most viewers are just completely missing the point of the series oO;

  10. @minikui
    And these “innocent” people were growing out the psycho-rollos out of their asses, so its entirely justified.

    However what Suzaku did was low. Really low.

  11. Astrantia: Yeah, because I thought the comment fits. And, c’mon, I´ve read the chats here week after week… the comments are definitely coming.

    Actually, I´ll copy/paste another of my comments from there, because I think it also fits very well:

    Well, I think this episode is a cause for celebration for all the Britannia lovers. After all, Lulu-sama just executed his *first ever genocidal massacre*!

    His dad will be *so* proud of him!

  12. Actually, Astrantia, see the guy ( UnknownVoice ) above me for the type of comment I was referring to. Hey, dude, I guess that baby which was massacred had it coming, too, huh?

  13. so… instead of even remotely taking Shirlys last words to heart, a death in which he’s partly responsible for since he just had to get involved in affairs by waving his Knight of the Rounds Epeen instead of letting local officials handle it. He decides that the use of an extremely powerful drug is the perfect solution, especially when using it on a former friend, as long as he gets what he wants.

  14. nope, they were just the employees that couldn’t even fight back, not those who pull the strings – you don’t just go in there and massacre them all … even Revy isn’t allowed to simply massacre those who were hired to navigate her enemy’s ship and Revy and her crew aren’t quite the nice guys.

    Plus, Lulu only went there because he was angry about Shirley and needed somebody as a scapegoat. Oh, and of course he also wanted to get rid of Rolo, the pawn that got out of control … Lulu’s so awesome 😉

    So what Lulu did was nothing better than Suzaku – who hasn’t even done anything yet.

  15. @minikul and Magnus

    Just forget even trying to explain things to these fans. While the show isn’t much (because it’s not) it does have that interesting play of blurring the lines between who’s good and who’s evil. That’s it’s best part. The rest is iffy at best.

    Fans in this show as with others will just follow their own given line and don’t bother with the details like plot or story development. But oh well, 11 more episodes to go, then we can finally put an end to this.



  16. man, so Shirley did die…i was hoping they would somehow revive her like they did to Cornelia and Jerimah. hah, lelouch on a killing spree XD and i DO hope Suzaku would drug Karen already, she’s a fucking annoyance. n it was nice (quite unbelievable too) to see Charles (less Marianne) in their youth.

  17. @Magnus

    Well of course. He would have been grown into either psycho killer, or would become another immortal being like V.V or C.C, which would mean that the geass curse would continue on and on.

    Thats the difference, we KNOW that. We know that geass is always source of misery for anyone having it or those around it. All the geass users lived in misery – like RAi in lost colors, like Lelouch, even Rollo and Mao. Geass, so far, seems to be the main thing destroying people lives.

    Suzaku, on other hand, ASSUMES its Lelouch, cause “its Lelouch” and goes on, wanting to use the drug on a person who, quite frankly was quite a friend to him, before the Kaminejima or after. Suzaku is doing it without any shade of guilt. He just ASSUMES everything is Lelouch’s fault, forgetting what Shirley said to him last episode.

  18. GP: But … but … even Sunrise – as much as I complain about them – WANTED the viewers to realize that what Lulu is doing isn’t exactly “great”. Else they wouldn’t have shown the Black Kights doubting their mission and CC in tears. ….. how can people be that dense? That’s just sad …

    >Well, I think this episode is a cause for celebration for all the Britannia lovers. After >all, Lulu-sama just executed his *first ever genocidal massacre*!

    >His dad will be *so* proud of him!

    Wow, Lulu might still have a chance to become heir to the throne in fact 😉

  19. @miniskul

    It’s like this.

    They hate Suzaku because he “might” use refrain on Kallen to get his questions answered so we hate him like mad!

    They love Lulu who already mind haxed (geassed) Kallen to get his questions answered in season 1!

    You see the hypocrisy here? The only difference above between the two is the tools used, but the outcome is the same.

  20. lol, so much for him being against the “ends justify the means” philosophy. drugging a person to get info? suzaku, you’re the biggest hypocrite in anime history!
    is this marianne? i like the pose! it’s so lelouch [even though it should be the other way around.. xD]
    awww.. even viletta visits shirley. RIP, shirley.
    by massacre, were these children included in the deaths? wow. I wonder what the black knights knew of the operation, knowing that they don’t know anything about Geass. no wonder they were against the killing, if they don’t even know why they’re killing.
    hmm, so lelouch vs emperor at this stage? i’m excited!! i’m sort of sick w/ KMF battles, where the stronger one usually wins. now, it’s really Geass vs Geass!! i think. lol can’t wait to watch =D
    lol, so i guess this isn’t the end of rolo yet.

  21. @GP
    Well, don’t watch it them ;]

    Yes, lelouch is gray antihero, evil, batman or w/e u want to call him. But he has a perfect reasoning for that. Yes his methods are horrible and all, but that was needed to be done. Let’s face it – as long as there is the geass, world won’t ever become peaceful.

    Out of the two evils – Suzaku is darker than Lelouch right now. Lelouch WOULD have some regrets or feel guilt if he had to use mind-raping drug on the person which was his friend friend. Suzaku on other hand just goes on with it, like it was a daily activity.

    Yes they both are not the traditional idealistic boring goodies, but while lelouch still holds on what he wants, Suzaku just does not realize that he is falling into a piit, which is Britannia, becoming just like them.

  22. lol i’s like to say i rather suzaku drug kallen already….she should die or suffer in hell cuz she’s doing this all in the name of “zero” but in fact only cuz she likes lulu n is trying to get his attention. seriously, sunrise needs better female characters!

  23. @miniskul

    Like I said, fans will just follow their own opinion/line of thought and don’t bother with the details like what you said about showing CC in tears or the Black Knights doubting their mission. All those parts mean nothing to most fans really. They just care about one thing, their favorite character has to always win and somehow always get which ever girl they like the best.

    That’s just how it goes for most shows, sad but true.

  24. >Well of course. He would have been grown into either psycho killer, or would become >another immortal being like V.V or C.C, which would mean that the geass curse would >continue on and on.

    >Thats the difference, we KNOW that. We know that geass is always source of misery for >anyone having it or those around it. All the geass users lived in misery – like RAi in >lost colors, like Lelouch, even Rollo and Mao. Geass, so far, seems to be the main thing >destroying people lives.

    Oh I see. So let’s just kill them all – that’s so nice of Lulu. Taking away any chance they might have to -change- … err, I mean, redeeming them of their cruel destiny. Way to go, Lulu. (The problem is not about destroying or stopping the order – it’s about simply killing everybody in there.)

  25. >They hate Suzaku because he “might” use refrain on Kallen to get his questions answered >so we hate him like mad!
    >They love Lulu who already mind haxed (geassed) Kallen to get his questions answered in >season 1!
    >You see the hypocrisy here? The only difference above between the two is the tools used, >but the outcome is the same.

    That’s so true. Lulu’s hasn’t been using his Geass much on screen lately, but in fact the only thing he ever did the whole first season was “druging” and manipulating people to get what he wants.

    >Out of the two evils – Suzaku is darker than Lelouch right now. Lelouch WOULD have some >regrets or feel guilt if he had to use mind-raping drug on the person which was his >friend friend. Suzaku on other hand just goes on with it, like it was a daily activity.

    Err, seriously, how do you know? I’m pretty sure Suzaku is full of regret, he is like full of regret all the time, that’s why he gets nothing done XD – and he is just as angry as Lulu about Shirley’s death. And he holds Lulu, or rather Zero, responsible for it … and Lulu/Zero -is- the one responsible. I really don’t see how that makes Suzaku any worse than Lulu.

  26. @minikui
    And Of course its bad to massacre them, no one would try to justify Lelouch for that. There are thousands of what ifs, “what if that baby would not have been there”, “what if they would destroy the world”, “what if”, “what if” , “what if”.

    Its morally gray thing – what would you do with the people who would try to defend their leader and ideals even if it means dieing? Hell, even children were going against the OotBK forces. That means you have to chose out of two bad things – to let them exist or to kill them. For now, letting the root of evil exist there was definitely the BAD thing. And although what Lelouch did was a massacre, it had a perfect reason and objective. “Ends justify the means” – remember. As long as there’s a peaceful world, such sacriffice is acceptable in Lelouch’s mind.

    Now lets not forget that he just lost one of the most important persons to him, so its normal that he would apply a crazy thinking there.

    Suzaku, however, is still angsting over something what has happened quite a some time ago. Or should I say, that he already got over the death, but he just can’t take out the hatred for Lelouch. Suzaku, as was shown in this episode, seems to clearly think that all what happens bad is from Lelouch. So he plans on using the mind-destroying drug on his school-friend, without any guarantees that it will give any results. He ASSUMES, he uses psychological terror on her, lies to her and etc. Now, Suzaku, can’t go with “sorry I was angsting over the death of my love who dead yesterday”.

    The main difference is – Lelouch ACKNOWLEDGES that what he is doing is not all that white and good, while Suzaku THINKS all he did is all good. Demon doing with objectives of Angel and Angel with Objectives of Devil. Lelouch still has the reason and follows it, no matter what. Suzaku, on other hand is already loosing any reason or wish to change the Britannia – he now wants to rule Area 11? While its exactly the same as Britannia – no matter the name or the ideals behind, forcing the set of ideals on people is what is oppression. Lelouch does NOT want to rule the world he creates, he wants to LIVE in it. Thats the difference

  27. @GP: Aren’t you generalizing quite a bit here?
    Not all the fans who like/love a character are totally blind to his or her faults.
    ‘Cause you know, there are fans of Lelouch who do not agree with his every action.
    I like him, and I do want him to win, but I for one do not agree with the massacre this episode. Not at all.

    What Lelouch did was horrible and cruel and also wrong from a moral point of view.
    From the logical one, he was right.
    He did what he thought necessary, but I don’t doubt he’ll regret it at some point in the near future, cause he always acts rashly once something (in this case Shirley’s death) affects his emotions very strongly. He won’t react killing/trying to kill Rolo, but the Order? I think he will.

    So, that that make him right? No. But does it mean, that all fans who like him after this episode are wrong? Nope.

    Can’t I like his character for that? His philosophy has always been “the end justifys the means” and his goal is, at least in my opinion, honorable.
    His ways might not always agree with me, but I’ll root for him nonetheless, cause his goals are better than the ones from at least 70% of the cast.

    Concerning Suzaku, well, I did ,and still do, have my moments of wanting to hit him over the head. But only when he’s trying to force his somewhat twisted morality on other people. Trying/threatening to use Refrain on Kallen? Again, I don’t like it, but from a logical point of view it’s understandable, and I don’t hate him for it.
    I think it’s still above torture, which they would normally use on Kallen in such a situation.

    Shriley’s dead, he still believes Lelouch is Zero, he thinks Zero might have a hand in her death. So, to confirm his belief he threatens to use a drug on his former friend. Right? Nope. Right of you see it from the “end justifys the means” philosophy? Yeah.

    I don’t think either of the boys is above the other here. *shrugs*

    The thing that often makes fans have different opinons is, that Suzaku still doesn’t want to see the fact that it’s wrong. Lelouch at least, does.

  28. @minikui
    And you think Lulu isn’t full of regret? I’m very sure he knows exactly that he’s doing really bad things, the same as Suzaku. One strong point in Code Geass is, that “maybe good” people have to do bad things in order to change the world to the better, and thus are in permanent conflict with themselves.

    And the massacre – war is war.

    I wonder what’ll happen to Kalen. If Suzaku will use her, when she’ll be rescued (if – that’s another question).

  29. Ah GP is once again spreading his Suzakulove

    Well, I see that Geass Order as hardly innocent. They are responsible for countless atrocities, so while not all were guilty most in a way just got what they deserved. That order had to be destroyed.

    As for Suzaku, the reason I hate him is because he thinks what he’s doing is good and right. He’s the one who is always saying how he wants to change Britannia from within, so he shouldn’t even think of using Refrain on Kallen because it obviously violates his ideals, whereas Lelouche has been saying time and again that he’s going the path of Shura. Lelouche only wants to protect those close to him, the rest of the world can burn for all he cares. He may do evil, but atleast you can understand him. Suzaku however is constantly playing the victim, how poor him is forced to kill all those bad people who won’t surrender when Britannia attacks them and that just pisses me off.

  30. lol…why does people hate kallen? lol, i’m not really a fan of any character anymore since I keep reading the comments week after week and think to myself after i read it. so now i just watch the show, enjoy it and comment on a few things…not to deep or analyzed like many here like to do tho~! xD

  31. @Magnus: It seems you were right to post that comment. I was just amused because there hadn’t been much of the Lelouch vs Suzaku yet.

    @bana: Yes. Kallen kills people because she likes Lelouch. Never mind the fact that she was fighting Britannia even *before* she met him. Your logic astounds me.

    Although, I will agree that Rolo needs to die for Shirley’s death.

  32. what do u mean next week’s episode is going to be epic. I just saw the preview, they had nothing. it;s either a pointless mind dreaming etc etc episode or something so big that they dont want to spoil any of it.

  33. from this episode lulu already revealed his identity to the emperor and vv, so why and why does suzuka have to interrogate kallen when he already has special privilege in things involving geass.

  34. bearzerger: Well, Suzaku lately hasn´t espoused that “I´m right and what I am doing is good” point of view, hasn´t he? I think he already has noticed that he has left the side of the “good” people some time ago, but sometimes still tries to apply his moralistic view. But those moments are getting far in and between, compared to his “Yes, your highness!” order following.

  35. @magnus – Lulu has a tendency of laughing hysterically when he goes off killing or when a plan of his goes correctly…but then, when he’s alone and thinks about it, after he’s ‘calm’ from hysteric laughs, he regrets it or thinks back on what he did…i don’t know if that counts though….

  36. GP

    You see the hypocrisy here? The only difference above between the two is the tools used, but the outcome is the same.

    but is geass addictive? suzaku is gonna/will use a drug that is already known to be highly addictive so yeah suzaku gets his answers but he might also make karen into a junkie

  37. you know what, Suzaku is the only person that can stand up against lulu’s forces in these periodic meelee battles, actually with the latest additions to his army Suzaku probably cant anymore. The emperor is actually losing, things have shifted temporarily perhaps, but whatever.

  38. @minikui: Most people are aware that the Lelouch isn’t a “good” person. When most people watch anime, we don’t watch it to interpret every little detail and analyse. That isn’t “entertaining”. If I wanted to do that I’d read a book that does it properly, like “Lord of the Flies” or “Of Mice and Men”. Now those are some proper texts that actually portray the “gray” shade of humanity.
    I actually agree with GP and don’t think Code Geass is all that great, but I can certainly understand why people hate Suzaku and Rollo.
    When it comes down to it, Suzaku isn’t much better than Lelouch. For one, he killed his own father and betrayed his country- which caused this whole conflict in the first place. I’m not saying Lelouch is a good person – but you’re wrong to put all the blame on Lelouch. He’s done evil things, but there are reasons for them too. Rollo has even less good things to talk about. Sure he’s a victim of being rejected and feeling constantly lonely in his life, but that’s no justification to kill Shirley just because she mentioned Nunnally.
    “… and Lulu/Zero -is- the one responsible” Shirley’s death was caused by both of them and Rollo too. Lelouch is certainly not the only one responsible. Suzaku could have actually made sure Shirley was with him for one thing, instead of running off. Rillo – I still can’t find a justification for his actions really…

    I’m not trying to flame you, I just think most of us do realise that Lelouch is bad in many ways, and Suzaku isn’t as evil as he’s put out to be. All this “Lelouch ROCKS” stuff is a merely showing some fanboyism. I know Rollo has had a really bad childhood, but that won’t stop me from hating him, I’d rather just feel entertained (even though I know hs has SOME reasons for his actions)and enjoy the show rather than ciritcise everyone who thinks “Rollo should die”. I’m sure Omni realises that Rollo has some reasons for his actions too, but that doesn’t stop Rollo from being a hated character. If you ask me Sunrise knew this was going to happen when they made Rollo kill Shirley.

  39. Unknown Voice: Ok, I completely agree about Lulu and that the action fits his character. But that’s why I don’t think he’s any better than Suzaku, I’m not saying that Suzaku is better either. They’re just pretty much the same, and that’s what Sunrise wants them to be =)
    I also think from Suzaku’s point of view it’s pretty normal to assume Lulu/Zero to be the root of all evil.

    >Suzaku, however, is still angsting over something what has happened quite a some time ago.

    I dunno. One year isn’t that long and especially having your best friend kill the love of your life should leave quite a big scar. So that’s a bit unfair imho ^^


    >And the massacre – war is war.

    even in war you aren’t supposed to kill people that can’t defend themselves. But ok, they are “terrorists”, so they don’t care about this. Doesn’t make it acceptable.

    And still, I’m not saying that Suzaku is any better than Lulu (eventhough I might prefer hypocrite over egoistic massmurderer, not really sure).
    It’s just weird how so much more people are taking Lulu’s side … because to me they are both not the kind of character you would want to root for … in fact I dislike both of them, while Suzaku is less evil.

  40. Suzaku is a terrible character. I absolutely dislike him. It’s bad enough that he’s naive enough to believe that his path towards claiming the chair of the Knight of One is going to achieve a peaceful Japan. It’s bad enough that he’s nothing but a goddamn traitor to his country. It’s bad enough that he killed his father because he didn’t want anymore Japanese to die, yet he needlessly slaughters them wholesale whenever necessary. But now he’s going to force Kallen to use a substance in order to personally verify the identity of Zero…

    Lelouch is the only character deserved of a personal victory. Fuck the Empire, fuck Suzaku, fuck the Order.

  41. @Shana

    I wasn’t trying to lump all the fans/viewers together. That’s why in one of my posts I said “fangirls” “fanboys”, you know the ones.

    You touched on some very good points and you’ve pointed out how they’re the same yet just a bit different. So you get what I’m talking about. I also don’t hold one above the other at all, as I’ve said they’re two sides of the same coin. They have the same honorable goal of making the world better and so on, but they’ve taken different paths. Now the course of events has blurred things to where they’re both doing the same stuff even though they’re talking about doing things different. That’s pretty much the point of the show really. As far as ends justifying the means, and using drugs on Kallen or not, I don’t see it as being different from geassing people. You are in the end still messing with peoples minds. You can’t look at it as being different just because the tool in this case is different because the outcome is the same.

    As for Suzaku not seeing things as wrong, I don’t agree, he knows what he’s doing is wrong, Lulu knows what he’s doing is wrong also, but events force you to make a choice, you might not like it, but you have to make it regardless.


    Don’t hate 😛 Nah, seriously as I’ve said before I hold them both at the same level, always have, and that’s the point of the show really. They’re the same yet they’re ideals/rational about things is different at the start. BUT as the series moves on they’re becoming more and more the same even in that aspect. It’s what Sunrise does, they’ve done this in other shows with best friends split and take different sides only to come to an understanding later on towards the end. I don’t see Geass as being any different in this case.

    Their way of thinking is pretty close really, I mean they both know they’re doing wrong things, this is a fact now, I mean hell, lulu killing and so on then saying he’s doing it all for Nunnally, and now saying he’s doing it all for those close to him. It’s just another way to make you sleep at night. Yes we’re killing people, but hell we’re doing it to protect so it’s OK! It’s the same for Suzaku. He wants to protect people in general, the less killing the better, so the way to do that is what pushes his decision making. But they’re both changing the way they think little by little through the show.

    I mean look at the whole thing with Tenzi a few eps back, the old Lulu would’ve just geassed everyone and made them do what he wanted, but now he’s like “follow your heart!” or w/e. The events are developing and changing everyone really, but more so for Lulu and Suzaku.

    Who’s right and who’s wrong though? Both and Neither really. It’s a moral question actually, are you fine will killing loads of people to protect a few? And so on. Hell every sunrise show has this plan on ideals and morality, just look at all their gundam shows. heh.

  42. Pyro, no I agree with you. Maybe it’s because I just can’t get into this fanboy stuff.

    >Suzaku could have actually made sure Shirley was with him for one thing, instead of running off.

    lol, this is what I call “Sunrise plot hole” and what makes me unable to take CG very serious. So I kinda ignored that one xD

  43. Edgewood: When exactly did Suzaku have his personal massacre? Episode please.

    ida: Yeah, so far the empire hasn´t really lost anything since the first episode in season one. They still have Japan, have actually aquired part of Europe… the things done by Zero have been mostly skirmishes so far.

  44. Someone attempted to steal my car but was possibly thwarted cos its an old car and i handt charged the battery (since this is the first time this has ever happened i need to vent slightly) I just spent 15 min watching the last bit of macross 14 screaming kill them at my monitor WHY? because i hate thiefs/vajra and i got into it im now gonna spend aanother 20 mins shouting kill them at my monitor through code geass.
    Wish me luck with my car

    WingZero zxt
  45. code geass is like ww2

    H—er was not even german and he was killing all jews, he himself had jewish lineage. He wanted to make a peaceful world for the german people and his family. he became crazy and shot himself.
    Lelouch is not even japanese and he is killing all brits, he himself is a brit. He want to make a peaceful world for the japanese people and his sister. lulu is bcoming crazy.

    the only good guy in this anime is Suzaku. never seen him kill innocent people. he doesn’t have geass so he use drugs to get his information.

  46. a season and 14 episodes, we still haven’t heard Marianne’s voice.

    HE is hot without WTF curls…(and was he stalking Marianne??? I couldn’t understand it properly ‘cept that an adult calling a kid Nii-san. I am so gonna use this as a wallie!!!

    cute, poor V.V.

    Icon worthy rollo

    the ep won’t be complete without this:

    Omni doesn’t have a screen shot of C.C.(-sama) crying??? BooHoo!!!

    Every ep the guys(commentators) get to have discussions whether Suzaku is wrong and Lulu is right and/or they *love each other* I can’t say anything that won’t get me flames but guys…….SAVE IT FOR THE END.. The judge will hear it after you have enough evidence. We will have these endless discussions (and lists of things you hate about Suzaku and 1 million things I love about Kallen and why I hate those who snap at her)

    On a lighter note I read that Computer and watching TV shows makes you stupid and S88/fanservice helps you concentrate…(hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm)

  47. Disregarding the usual Suzaku/Lelouch fanboy drama, I notice that Cornelia has awesome mechanics skills, to patch up a knighmare frame in a few minutes and end up with Heavy Arms mark2.

    Also, Lelouch manipulated by Nunnally? At this rate, CG will end with Lulu shooting his own sister, then himself. Would be interesting.

  48. HOW THE HELL DID CORNELIA DO THAT there was no where near enough info to warrant the lack of explenation! and whilst its true that you CAN parallel Hitler to lelouch you have to except the fact that you can paralell Brittania to Nazi Germany! Making suzaku once again on level if not WORSE footing then lelouch (LOL GOOG GUY hahahahahahahhaa to say that after all this time ) there arent any good guys in the main cast! the main cast consists of murders assasains and serial killers the fact that suzaku MURDERED his father is still quite obvious! the only good guys were Euphy and Shirley and Maybe Milly and Rival (though rival bugs me and Millys events were evil in themselves lol) and 2 of those guys are already dead
    again suzaku good guy=LOL! thankyou youve help me foget partially that someone tried to steal my car today!

    WingZero zxt
  49. @Zeroooooooooo: I agree on the part where you mentioned about this >> “Also, Lelouch manipulated by Nunnally? At this rate, CG will end with Lulu shooting his own sister, then himself.”

    That could be a possible ending…but we shall wait and see the whole show first ^_^

  50. @Zero, drdoof
    Are you insane? Lulu loves his sister more than the world. He never lied to her, he fights for her. Eventhough he realised his fight isn’t just for his sister anymore he’d never do something to her. If they’d pull such an ending it’d be totaly unrealistic..

    I think he rather comforts her..
    And I don’t think Ogi will try to shoot Zero, it’s rather unrealistic. And why should he? Viletta is on Zero’s side more or less, it’d be unwise acting too hastly.

  51. Who dies or not at the end we don’t know yet, but one thing is for sure “zero” at the end will be dead. At the heart of it Zero is just a symbol now and not a single man. Or well, that’s what some want it o be. But wanting to protect Nunnaly and or those close to him blah blah, is just another way to make you feel good about all the “evil” you’re doing at the end of the day. It’s still about him and his daddy issues. He wants his vengeance on his dad for letting his mom die and then kicking him and his sister out.

    This has never been about saving japan, or freeing the world from the evil empire boo hoo. In fact when the show is over the empire will still be around I bet. Probably more peaceful but not totally gone. Don’t let all the geopolitical stuff throw you off, this isn’t Gundam.

  52. @Finalnight
    This is… !!!!!!SPARTA!!!!!

    r.e. sidenote: Yes animated people dont age like mere pathetic real people do they live for ever and have eternal youth (they may occasionally dye their hair grey for effect! 😛 )

    WingZero zxt
  53. Looks like a good episode….Does anybody else but me notice that Miya is trying to sneak into the “real” cast???(Look behind the Knight of Rounds at Shirley’s funeral) IDK but I think she might end up being more than a familiar extra.

    Peachy Zutto
  54. the blakcknights will get all squabbly towards the end according to one supposed spoiler and Zero will be ousted as thier leader (possibly might have to do with th fact that he killed children of the cult in Euphiesc fashion using KMFs)

    WingZero zxt
  55. i agree but in thier current state of affairs its not a strecth of the imagination for the main bk guys to go , “im sick of killing children and youve yet to secure us a single building on Japanese soil im voting you off OoBK brother’ (i dont actually watch big brother its STUPID in the worst way)

    WingZero zxt
  56. also apparantly they find out about geass! the reason im not putting spoiler tags is because none of these are official spoilers and nobody thinks they hold any weight (except me cos they accurately predicted that shirley would die! if Cornelia ends up with Schniziel by next 2 eps they are considered accurate!)

    WingZero zxt
  57. I bet karen is going to turn sides, at least for a short while. Reason why?

    1. In the op, Lancelot and Guren has the same new wings(Angelic looking instead of X style glider wing done by Lakshata). They seem to be fighting along side instead of against each other. She also appears along side the other Britainnian characters early in the OP.

    2. C.C. once said to Lelouch that the Geass power is going to make him isloated from others. Losing Shirley is just the beginning.

    3. Seeing as how Suzaku hates Lelouch, intends to rob Lelouch of everything he has, what he is doing to Karen this episode, how simple minded Karen is. Suzaku is gonna be able to manipulate Karen for a while.

  58. jeez

    Suzaku, when will you stop being a bitch? =__=;;

    people already hate suzaku (despite he’s trying to play the good guy)

    maybe @ the end he’ll kill nunally or somthing. >.>

    that’ll give people hell of a reason to hate him in season 3… if there is one…

  59. So Miya is gonna replace Shirley now? Meh. And has C.C. done much of anything in R2 aside from eating pizza hut? Aside from subbing in for Lulu now and then as Zero it really feels she hasn’t done squat this season.

  60. And it’s so funny how everybody hates Suzaku while Lulu isn’t even the slightest bit better (at beginning he was worse in fact, using everybody as his pawns).
    And just this episode he killed a bunch of innocent people projecting his own fault onto them. Such a great, likeable guy

    So? Omni didn’t mention anything about Lelouch being better or worse than Suzaku. They both have their own faults as human beings, and really, can we just redeem one character without bashing another?

    And how did you know that the Order were innocent people? They could’ve been kicking puppies, for all that we know.:p

    Also – Rollo killing Shirley was nobody’s fault but his own. Sure, Lelouch may have been a huge influence on this, but the one who made the choice to kill was Rollo – even if it was out of his proctectiveness of Lelouch. Lelouch didn’t force Rollo to commit the act. And if you’re going to go down that path, why don’t you just say that Shirley caused her own death since she was the one who didn’t stay with the guards and ran away?

    Kiryu Yurina
  61. jajaja ze akuerdan de el kapitulo de R1 donde C.C ze keda kon Zero a zolaz y ezte le dize no ze por q la nieve es blanca pero me gusta… jaja puede sonar estupido pero creo q ese es el verdadero nombre de ella o bueno uno de esos dos o blanca o nieves aunq mas blanca(de ser asi pegenese un tiro los de sunrise).

  62. how come ppl hate suzaku lolz. kallen is supposed to be considered a terrorist. i mean he is unlikable cuz he is trying to change the government from the inside. his way is just slower unlike the radical black knights. also lelouch “doesn’t care about japanese people” loll. he is just a siscom. i think people should be hating on how un mannish and pathetic lelouch is. he has to hide his face and just wank off from undercover or the backlines. he even skips P.E cuz he is so hard. i think suzaku is pretty badass with his knightmare skills and the spinzaku kicks to the gonads. rofl

  63. @ Novax:

    1. Mmm, I wouldn’t trust openings too much. I personally think it’s just showing off the two Knightmares together because they’re the most prominent ones in the series, and because their pilots have been established as each other’s main enemy on the battlefield throughout it. And are they really fighting together in the OP, or just being shown off together?

    I found that scene of Gino, Anya, Nina and Kallen being shown together odd as well. Still, I don’t think it means much. They’re just all tied to Britannia in some way, but it doesn’t have to mean that Kallen’s tie is in the form of her joining them.

    2. Maybe. I have nothing really to say about this, since it is a pretty good point. It just contradicts Kallen’s character.

    3. I don’t know how Suzaku’s going to be able to manipulate Kallen into joining Britannia, especially given the events of Turn 14. The simple threat of using Refrain on her should cement her in a position firmly against him (considering how much she hates Refrain and what it does to people) and assuming it’s only a threat, I don’t believe she would sell Lelouch out because of it. Assuming he does use it on her, she’d hate him for forcing her to reveal Zero is Lelouch (and this a major stretch seeing as Refrain makes you relive your happy memories and all Suzaku could do is hope hers is related to Zero) and would never join him after it.

    If he drugs often enough to have her addicted to it, and then I don’t know, manipulates her by withholding Refrain shots, then maybe she would join Britannia. Otherwise, no, not of her own free will and definitely not because Suzaku has any kind of manipulative ability that could make her betray Lelouch.

  64. I’m waiting for Gundam 00 Season 2! (haha sorry for little OOT here, but there is pics there)

    Well, I’m just sad that Shirley died….
    Whoever is fault idk, maybe the script maker lol

  65. I have to say the main difference right now is that Lelouch despite what he does still knows that what he does is evil or wrong. From the onset, he said to himself he would become a larger evil to outdo the previous evil justice could not defeat.

    I think he really knows and regrets the things he does at times, but it doesn’t stop him. One would not cry for what he did to Shirley or her father or even the faintest at getting his friends involved. Suzaku on the other hand doesn’t regret anymore. He’s hell bent on justifying his actions as justice and the correct method. He’s far more dangerous than Lelouch at the moment as he won’t hesitate on any decisions.

  66. Seriously, Lulu and Suzaku are opposite sides of the same coin. Lulu’s the Lex Luthor (or Batman if you will but I prefer Lex due to his superior intellect and inferior physique) to Suzaku’s Superman (which might explain why people generally dislike Suzaku = hypocritical goody-two-shoes boy scout + invulnerability to death = boring and annoying). Really wish the bashing of either one would just ease up since both characters are guilty of doing some really questionable gray-area stuff including:

    Murdering family members (Lulu killed his half-sister Euphie, Suzaku killed his father, each had their reasons and unfortunate circumstances for doing so)


    Manipulating people for their own ends (in R1, Lulu was more guilty of this, of course, but lately Suzaku has been doing this more and more in R2; again, each had his reasons, altruism being a part of it; Suzaku wants to change the political machine from the inside by outright collaborating with his people’s conquerors, Lulu wants to build a world in which Nunnally can live in peace; but also for selfish reasons; Suzaku trying to attain rank and curry favor with the Emperor and somehow erase the sin of patricide, Lulu just outright abusing his geass and power-tripping against the Empire and everyone else for revenge due to his mother’s murder).

    I really don’t see how you can bash one and still love the other, since they’re both equally guilty of some morally blurry stuff. But each believes he’s in the right and the other in the wrong. The only other real difference is that “evil” is sexier, so Lulu takes the cake there (aside from being the main character too and Suzaku designed to be his rival from the get-go).

    As for Lulu returning to school this season, he had to maintain his cover since having his memories altered by the Emperor. To suddenly leave the school would have been too conspicuous so he was forced to keep up appearances of just being a normal student at the school again. Yea, it’s sad Shirley died, but with everything that’s happened, I can’t say she didn’t have it coming to her. She just knew too much and was at the wrong place at the wrong time saying the wrong thing to the wrong person (Rollo and his creepy bro-con complex).

    R2 started off promising but a lot of what’s happened this season seems like a retread of stuff that’s already happened in R1 (Euphie’s death = Shirley’s death). I really hope they somehow wrap up the story at the end with the last few eps. An R3 at this point would really be seen as an attempt to keep the marketing machine going just for the sake of $$$.

  67. I was thinking that Kallen might change sides because she has yet been hit with whatever (Geass from Charles Britannia?) thing that made the whole population of the Ashford Academy, including Lelouch to forget Nunnaly and think that Rolo is the younger sibling. It would be very morally crushing to the Black nights that their ace believes that she is a loyal Britannian soldier (Kinght of Round?) with task of hunting down Zero and the Black Knights.

  68. @astrantia

    Not that Suzaku is really good at manipulating ppl. It’s just that Karen is really simple minded. Remember how at the end of S1, she just ran away instead of helping Lelouch out.

    I bet refrain + things Suzaku is gonna say + emo/being simple minded, karen will change side for a bit. I don’t think loyd will just give that new wings out to Guren if she isn’t changing side.

    code geass has been really unpredictable from the beginning. I never saw “orange” changing side coming.

  69. You know, I’m a bit curious why Lulu raiding the Geass Cult is so adversely looked at when Cornelia was doing the exact same thing the episode prior. The only people caught in the cross fire who she may have spaired were the scientists but even they had blood on their hands… and I’m pretty sure she was killing them too.

  70. Cornelia herself said they had to kill children before they could use their Geass. She had no problem throwing a knife through V.V.’s head without knowing he was immortal.

  71. what bothers me about suzaku (OH HERE WE GO) is that whilst being equally as guilty as lelouch for being of questionable character hes all that but he thinks he NOT evil i dont have problems with a charactes behaviour in what they do because THIS IS JUST ANIME but i find it really annoying when a character shows up does somthing either wrong or stupid and then doesnt have the coutesy to let us know hes genuinely got a screw loose by tossing in an evil laugh or 2 ontop of that not only is that the case but then he goes on to complain about the way the other guy does it even though his way requires a similar or equall ammount of moral difunct-ness. its not neccessarily his methods which bother me! its the fact hes self righteous to the point of not lettin anyone else live thier lives (plus supproting the wrong side dont do him any favours)

    WingZero zxt
  72. Kane, you are correct. Cornelia is no better than Lelouch. She was doing the same thing to the Geass cult.

    This is sort of my biggest problem with Code Geass. Everyone is basically a villain. Who the hell are we supposed to root for?

  73. Another clue to where Kallens loyalties might be: Earlier in the season Kallen confronted LeLouch if he used Geass on her so that could be loyal Black Knight. It would be somewhat ironic that Kallen became a loyal Britannian through Geass.

  74. Rukia: Cornelia and Lelouch are doing the exact same thing, only that Lelouch is doing it successfully. it is immoral, fine, but no one was chastising Cornelia for her methods in Ep.13. Yet, the moment Lelouch begins doing the same thing, all hell breaks lose.

    they are even doing it on the same premise. Cornelia put it simply that they have to kill everything there because they do not know what kind of power anyone could have(Those kids have a similar past as Rollo). With the knowledge from Bartley as well, the Cult was framed as the root of evil within the CG universe.

  75. As long as people understand that the show is basically throwing everyone in the same pot so to say. Everyone is wrong of things and right on some things. There is no clear cut good or evil really. I think this is even true for the emperor and VV.

    The Lulu and Suxaku debate will probably never end, and people will probably still bash one and love the other. But Sunries is making them more and more the same character as time passes, this is important and shouldn’t be overlooked. If more and more people understand this then that’s better. But I know we’ll always have sides in every show, that’s just the nature of things.

    As for the OP/ED stuff, they often do hint at things so I wouldn’t actually write them off at all. And as far as Kallen goes, I’m sorry to say to the Kallen fans but she’s not as important of a character as people think she is. What I mean is that she’s not in the main group that the show basically revolves around plot wise.

    This group is pointed at in the OP pretty clearly right at the start, Lelouch, CC, Shniezel, Nunnaly and Suzaku. What this basically means is that the plot is dependent on the actions of this group of characters. The rest of the characters in the show are, well, for lack of a better word, unimportant. Hell, maybe i’ve missed it but Kallen isn’t even in the ED anywhere.

  76. Suzaku is a coward!!!! if he is a man he must find the true by himself. I woder, what happen when he discover that Euphemia know Zero true identity and she never tell him.
    Kallen still loyal to zero.

  77. if lelouch knew that shirley wanted to help him and got killed because she mentioned nunnally, he would definitely want him to suffer in misery before killing him rather than unexpectedly with the bomb
    also, i think that some people are being a bit too imposing about the “point” of code geass. in my opinion, the point is to 1 make money 2 entertain ppl with anime, the same as most other animes.

  78. @umeboshi

    Yeah, that’s the “point” of the business side. But well, when I talk about the point of the show I mean the story/plot. 😛 But hey, if people like it even without caring much for the story/plot then it’s all the same for Sunrise in the end ($$$).

  79. What? Why are people cursing out Suzaku now?? OMG he’s just giving her info on what has happened and what he thinks. Kallen says that it couldn’t have been Lulu, and Suzaku says the evidence points in that direction (though that doesn’t mean he believes it). As far

    as he is concerned geass users are a big problem
    Euphie died from geass
    and now he’s probably thinking the same happened to Shirley because she found out.
    I’d say it’s reasonable for the “simple minded” Suzaku.

    I can’t believe this out of all the people alive the only person I remotely like is Nunnally. Go Nunally kill everyone, jking.

  80. @kayne001
    they’re cursing him out “now”? there’s always been plenty of ppl that disliked him. i’d wager more ppl disliked him than Lelouch.

    as for what GP says, thats actually a reason why i’ve always sided with Lelouch more than Suzaku. if you think about it, perhaps it was a little less obvious, but Suzaku was ALWAYS pretty much as selfishly pursuing his own personal vision of how life should be, to the point of being willing to betray others for it. He’s never been that different from Lelouch.
    the arguement of who is good and who is evil? Lelouch or Suzaku? has always been a bit of a moot point. there are no angels here, they’re both complete failures if you are looking for a “good person”
    so why side with Lelouch? whats the line? Mostly that Lelouch has never denied it. He’s a complete fiend and he acknowledges it. he even revels in it if it gets him what he needs. Suzaku’s no better. perhaps he doesn’t throw himself into the role and basks in his own treachery, but since when was blind ignorance to one’s own deeds considered an excuse? yet one suspects even now in his lil head there, he thinks he’s good and Lelouch is evil and he’s being the champion for all, and when all is said and done he’ll be the great hero of the story.

  81. @ Anonymous: That was very well put. And I agree 100%. Suzaku has made some radical changes compared to his self in season 1. Your example was well on the mark. Him already judging Lelouch, saying that he killed Shirley, without any proof, then having the nerve to threaten Kallen…who has lost their sense of justice now? I see Suzaku as a hypocrite(?spelling) I am fond of Lulu I will admit that, but I am not blind as to follow the government if they hurt, killed, struck my own people down. plainly put; Fuck That. I support Lulu and will continue to support him till the end.

    This episode was amazing. I noticed CC was talking to herself, again. Always Weird. As for Rollo, I did not want him to be killed so I was a bit worried for his part. Thanks to CC and Cornellia, though, they came through nicely.

    As for the Black Knights, There will def. be separation a-foot. I basically watched them, and i thought, this is just murder. :/ This will be problems for Lelouch though he does not care for them at the moment as he has to worry about His father who stands before him. And, another note? Did Charles kill V.V? Though she is immortal, I will have to look back at this episode to reflect more on this.

    All in all, Great episode, nice action. I felt for Shirleys death again.
    Nina and that guy, actually look good together. :]

  82. @sgsh

    When they first showed that gate thing in season 1 on the island etc, I joked with people and called it the stargate. “Just wait for the stargate parts in season 2” I said. Yeah it was a bit of a joke but I figured it was like that. Add in all this funky stuff about Jupiter, and the OP showing something about wars in space also?!?!? Well I’m sure anyone can put 2 and 2 together.


    Yeah, that’s how it basically is, there is no “good” guy in this show and no full blown “evil” guy either. I understand why people hate Suzaku because he, at least in season 1, is trying to sound good while doing wrong things while Lulu doesn’t. But then Lulu also turns around and says he’s doing everything for his sister, which imo, is more BS than truth. Wanting to protect Nunnaly sounds nice and a good reason but I don’t remember loads of enemies storming the school trying to kill her now. The emperor doesn’t actually care about her at all to threaten her. You could say other nobles might see her as a threat? But she’s not 2nd or 3rd in line to take over, she’s all the way dead last! I actually don’t see a threat to her safety really. To me that reason was no different than Suzakus reason for killing his dad (to stop the war and thus save lives etc etc). It’s something they tell themselves to help them put up with the moral issue.

    It’s just clear that sunrise is making them/pushing them more and more close to the way they think and act that it’s odd people watching haven’t picked up on this yet.

  83. to me it seems both lulu and suzaku are annoying
    lelouch is doing everything for his own benefit out of revenge or what have you so that he can “create a perfect world” for nunally even though his methods are the exact opposite of what nunally would want. he uses everyone, and lets his emotions get the best of him. and as we can see this is causing dissention amongst the black knights, and will most likely lead to bigger problems.
    suzaku is just as bad because he just doesnt get that what he is doing is totally hipocritical. he wants to becaome the knight of one to free japan, but in the process he is helping Schneizel taking over the EU and China, putting them in a worse situation than Japan was. he is a dillusioned idiot who claims to be doing the right thing but is in fact uses methods in the same way as lelouch. (i personally believe he is worse but thats just because i dont like him)

  84. “Well, I think this episode is a cause for celebration for all the Britannia lovers. After all, Lulu-sama just executed his *first ever genocidal massacre*!”

    It isn’t his first. He is responsible for geassing Euphie into ordering the massacre of the Japanese after all. It might have been accidental but he alone bears full responsibility for it.

    @ 3.14
    Your argument makes no sense. Suzaku has plenty of reason to believe Lelouch killed Shirley. After all, Suzaku *knows* that Lelouch geassed Euphie and then later killed her. And he knows that Lelouch is responsible for Shirley’s father’s death. Shirley wanting to meet him, and then her hinting to him later that she knew Zero’s identity, easily led Suzaku to realize that Lelouch would have reason to stamp her out.

    What I find to be extremely narrowminded of your views is that you say that Suzaku is blindly following the government. Well this government might not be the greatest, but there were steps made to make peace and reconciliation with the Japanese, and guess what? Lelouch ruined them because of his own selfish plans. Suzaku, though his hands are occassionally stained with blood, has a true goal of wanting peace and reconciliation in Japan, whereas Lelouch manipulates people into believing this is his goal, but in reality he simply wants revenge for his mother’s death and a paradise for his sister.

  85. @Dh19440113

    I doubt he’ll use force on kallen to do anything. If she does change sides so to say (because I beleave in the end everyone will basically be on the same side fighting some other bigger foe to save the world, blah blah) it’ll be to help protect Nunnally probably.

    In the end Kallen shares the same goal as Suzaku, a better Japan. So I mean they can see eye to eye to an extent.

  86. Hmmm, so wut was Charles saying V.V. lied about? That Lulu was deceiving Nunnally?

    The difference between Lulu and Suzaku is that Lulu acknowledges he’s taking the moral low ground to reach his objective, while Suzaku continues with self-denial claiming that anything he does is right because its a reaction to what Lulu does.

  87. Dam that Suzaku, if he still treats Kallen as a friend, he would never do that, but he is a bastard, cuz if he can kill his father and betray his best friend, then he can pretty much to anything, even kill Nunnally, I believe.

    Man, but I do worry about Kallen, imagine her in that state, she would probably let out all the bottled feelings she has of both Zero and Lelouch, like “Why won’t you let me join your little circle with C.C., huh, Lelouch?!!! Why is it always that Pizza-girl that you share everything with!!!” Man the action itself may be horrible, but the results might be quite interesting lol ^^.

    Though I still prefer that Lelouch will step in before that happens or at the very least, Nunnally.

  88. I swear to god, if Kallen , Lulu’s most loyalist betrays Lulu in upcoming episode by joining the other side, i will hate her like hell.. even if she was tricked..

    i dont know i just think she might because in the openning u see Her knightmare in the sky, and then u see Suzakus knightmare coming from under here, like there were workign together or something…

    its just Usually OP are show symbolism of what may happen..

  89. Awesome episode!

    Dunno thats not a property of refrain but he can make her a junky and make her tell him information inexchange for a refrain fix. I doubt a refrain junky would be a good pilot, if he gets her to that point where shes willing to do whatever for it, she would prolly be either constantly high or in withdrawal. Either way sucking as a pilot.

    Regarding Rollo n suzaku. I think rollo will actually die but probably doesnt deserve to as much as suzaku does. Rollo’s been mindfucked since he was little to be a killer and serve the organizations needs. He clearly has loyalty for lulu as you can tell by this ep. He actually is pretty much like diethart. He only cares about zero, everything else doesnt matter. And its a good and bad thing.

    Suzaku in the other hand is coming full cycle to becoming the very thing he hates. I never liked him, but if i was a suzaku fan i would probably want him to get killed in battle rather than turn into something he’s not. Also personally i think getting geassed is more humane than turning someone into a drug user.

    Oh and V.V. was probably responsible for (or had a hand in) marianne’s death see as to how much he hated her.

    Seems charles has other motives, he got pretty upset that V.V. tried to kill Lelouch. Seems cornilia doesnt really blame lelouch but rather blames v.v. and the cult for everything that happened with euphie.

    I wonder what villeta is up to. Seems liek she never expected zero to get so powerful.

  90. To add up to my opinion of Suzaku, I can’t believe that he still thinks he is “moral” and that Zero/Lelouch is the one that’s wrong. He could at least be like Lelouch, whom admitted his wrong doings, and even accepts it. Also those people who thinks that Lelouch is blaming it on Geass and Rollo, well isn’t obvious that he is only looking for a excuse or a reason to do so? He knows that everything is entirely his fault, refer back to ep.3 during his date with Shirley, where he admits that it was entirely his fault.

    The last episode made Lelouch realize that simply taking over the cult and using them, would just lead to another tragedy, as pointed out by C.C., it is quite obvious that these people will be continued to be used and even if they are let out to the outside world, they will only be a threat. So IMO I understand why Lelouch decided to eliminate the order instead of using them, which was a right decision IMO. Still I keep wondering what the Emperor means by V.V. lying to him “again”…so this means that there is no mutual bond between the two, and may indicate that they aren’t so close as to what we initially thought.

    I also wonder what the heck is the contract with Lelouch and C.C., we all know the condition for Lelouch, but what about C.C.’s wish? She was worried that Lelouch may have forgotten their contract, but how the heck will Lelouch even make her wish come true if she won’t even tell him about it? Man, and knowing Lelouch, considering how dense he is towards women, he probably won’t know unless C.C. just tells him straight out.

  91. Show Spoiler ▼

    Suzaku doesn’t use the Refrain on Karen.
    They fight a bit and he ends up getting stabbed in the leg with it and gets flashbacks to when Euphie was alive (apparently Sakurai’s voice acting is particularly worthy of mention at this part)
    The term “核” (“kaku”/nuke) is not actually used.
    Nunally persuades Suzaku.

    Gareth- Gawein prototype. Has Hadron machine guns instead of cannons. Has Gawein’s rabbit ears.

    Percival- Knight of Ten’s KMF. Hadron machine gun and drill.

    Galahad- Knight of One’s KMF. Twice the size of a regular KMF, uses a large sword (Excalibur)

    Freya- Nina’s nukes. A few prototypes are made; Lancelot is equipped with one.

    Great Britannia- Wakamoto’s new flying ship

  92. @EliteF22

    I don’t think that’s the case anymore. In season 1 it was, but he pretty much knows what he’s doing is wrong. He doesn’t try to tell himself or others that he’s doing good things, I haven’t seen that anywhere in season 2. After Euphies death all that Justice and other stuff he talked about went right out the window. It’s gone now.

    Still wanting to change Japan and the Empire from within isn’t a wrong idea, it’s just a slow process. You have many ways of enacting change. Just going in and starting war is one way but will that actually deep down change how people feel or think? I mean look in the real world, the Japanese did horrid things in WWII to Chinese and others, and have they forgave them after 60 years? No, Hell if the Chinese could they’d probably want to get their blood back. That’s not to say Lulus way is wrong either, you have to fight at times also. But you have to make sure you don’t fall into an endless cycle of killing like we see in our own world today. These are parts of the “moral” aspects of the show that sunrise tosses in. It does it with Gundam more, but it’s the same formula in Geass as well.

  93. @Boogerhead

    Ya lelouch is being selfish and he knows it and we know it. Suzaku is also and the point is he wont admit it and nor do his fans. He’s also forcing his views on a nation. None of the japanese like him, they labeled him a traitor and dont want his help. If a nation is its people he’s clearly going against their wishes and exerting his own ideology on them. And this was the second time.

    The first time they wanted to keep fighting, and he murdered his father so they would surrender. He claims he fights for the people but he really fights for his own ideologies. To be for the people is to represent their voice.

    O and watch V for Vendetta. The peace suzaku wants isnt real peace, its form of forced peace. You cant gain real peace under tyranny. Sometimes freedom is worth than life.

  94. @Boogerhead
    I was declaring an argument with anyone just stating my viewpoints. And as for Shirley death. I am talking about “Hard” Evidence. Not that fact that he killed Euphy as well as Shirleys Father. Though I see where you, can suspect Lulu. I meant “material (factual)” evidence, not just assumptions.

    Those attempts to make Peace, did not come till after Zero appeared so it wasn’t that Brittania, on its own, tried to make peace with the Japanese. Social Darwanism is the Emperors Way. They had the Japanese living in the Ghetto. They worked jobs, and were ridiculed as being Elevens.

    I do admit Lelouch, could have held back his saying that made Euphie went on her killing spree. But it is not as if he didn’t agree to Her Peace between Britannia and the Japanese. It just so happened, that because of some unfortunate events, it could not be carried out.

    I can understand someone wanting peace, but from Suzakus perspective, it seems a bit far-fetched for my taste.
    I can also understand him wanting peace for the Elevens and Britannia, I just do not see how he can do it by following Charles Government.

  95. @Quikstryke

    Uhhh, what do you mean he doesn’t admit it? Do people want him to go outside and scream that he’s being selfish? Everyone in the show is to an extent being selfish, it’s also a part of human nature. And pushing his views on a nation? He’s not in a position to do that at all, he has no control over Japan, so what views and ideals can he push on anyone? “None of the japanese like him?” The ones that did left, but that was hardly everyone, just 1 million out of how many?

    You know the Japanese generals in WWII wanted to keep fighting also, but the emperor had to step in and put an end to it, even then they still wanted to keep fighting. Yes honor and pride is nice, but like you said a nations leaders have to care about the people. If they had kept fighting how many would have died? Are you fine with fighitng till EVERYONE is dead on your side? That’s not saying killing his dad was right or anything, he knows himself it wasn’t but the thinking is that you’re doing it to save lives. The lives of the people come first before the pride of the military and it’s leaders.

  96. @3.14

    “Charles Government” won’t be there always. I don’t know who will take over when this is done, Schniezel? Cornelia? It’s a slow process when you talk about changing a system from within, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t an option either.

  97. *is mesmerized by first screencap*

    I’ve only been follwing Code Geass here for the pretty pictures, and I must say, young!Marianne has to be the most attractive female ever featured on the show.

  98. @GP
    That is true, though I do not know what Schiezel or Cornellias plan is for Britannia, Suzaku can never be on the throne, what change can come off him moving up in rank as knight of Rounds? ugh, Im lost. But I guess, anyone besides Charles would bring a positive change to Britannia and the Japanese?..maybe >.>..I hope. <.<

  99. Lelocu and Suzaku appear to be just as bad, gray, or whatever you want to call it, as each other. The simple fact is many of us are biased. I like Lulu better and hate Suzaku. Especially since I find Suzaku a hypocrite, but that’s just my personal feelings.

    Doping Karen up on drugs, when she has nothing to do with the case, does seem a little low though. Sure, Suzaku might not do it, but I don’t think Karen’s gonna give him much of a choice. I don’t think it’s likely she’ll betray Zero, though possible. And how far is Suzaku willing to go with this? Is he gonna turn Kallen into a drug refrain junkie? That’d be worse than Lulu little geass stunt in season one.

  100. FINALLY suzakus hypocrcy is right there open. as stated by some ppl abocve thats the annoying thing about him (plus his selfadmitted idiocy). and for all those who say that the euphie/suzaku/nunally way of changing things in a gentle but slow manner will work, ure just like them naive. when euphie first states in R1 that she wants to make all the numbers equal to the brits, cornelia ask her if she realizes that would mean to become empress ( and she clearly didnt just like suzaku and nunally dont ( i like nunally shes the most pure character now, the only real white character left and shes probably the only one who can rescue lulu from his sins but the fact is while she (and euphie) are purely white, the world is not), lelouch on the other hand understands exactly, ironically even though he wants to destroy brit he understands it the most and in his actions too is probably the most britannian character after the emp). the SAZ and the fact that nunally is allowed to do her peace thing are DIRECT consequences of the rebellion in area 11. theyre just allowed by the higher ups brits, because its the most effective way to gete rid of the resistance (schneizel clearly states so in R1). once the rebellion threat is gone things will back to the old way(not that theyd changed that much anyway).

    as for lulus massacre, it certainly isnt nice to kill those children, but for the rest just because the scientist are unarmed(in fact theire not really they have geassusers after all) doesnt make things bad. throw in the fact that lulu has aa right to act a little crazy after shirley got killed and its all justified/at least understandable, after all if there is anyone to blame for shirleys death its the order. rollo can be held accountable only so far, hes a product of his upbringing, trained by the order to be a murderer.

    finally to the there are no black/white characters in this anime, with a few exceptions( as stated aboce i think nunally and perhaps euphie can be said to be completly white), i find myself thinking after this ep that we lost the last black character. might be that im mistaken, future eps will have to show but if charles motivation is as he said, to destroy the gods that make the humans fighting between each other ( they definitly do in the real world) and to end the selfinduced lies humans live with, then despite all his actions he qualifies as dark gray at the most.

  101. @3.14

    Well the original idea Suzaku had was to help Euphie take over, and Cornelia would help her also as we saw in season 1. In that regard with Euphie as empress it works out better, but not that plan got shot to shit. 😛

    I’ve actually been playing with the idea that when it’s all over Nunnaly might be empress. Yes it’s the poler opposite of Charles BUT it’s the best option really. That’s not to say Schniezel or even Cornelia isn’t bad either. Schniezel isn’t yet in a position where he can go against his father, so he has to play alone still. Cornelia should be first to flat out rebel at this point BUT that doesn’t mean she’ll “change sides”, well, the sides, as i’ve said, are blurred and mish-mashed anyways.

    I think it’d be pretty interesting if out of some weird twist of events Nunnaly is somehow empress. What would lulu do? Would he stop her? Not let her? I actually don’t think he’d say or do anything, if she had the chance and wanted to. But well, it’s just an idea I’ve tossed around.

  102. Man what is Suzaku doing? Kallen will she turn against Lelouch? What is going on with Sayoko-Diethart and Ougi-Viletta problem? Lelouch-Shirley and Rolo? Father and Son? Answer please I was just shocked after watching this episode.

  103. @GP my point was suzaku doesnt represent the japanese. if you think otherwise we’re not really watching the same show. He’s not pushing his views on the nation you serious? Even zero states it to him in episode 18 season 1 and suzaku just looked dumbfounded. He’s doing everything in his power to stop zero and the resistance who are supported by the japanese and the tokyo group. You said lives of the people come before pride of the military and the leaders, but so far in teh show every single japanese person (this is including the ghetto in season 1 and all other nipponjins) i ever seen only wants their nation and pride back. I have yet to see another japanese person in the series besides suzaku say something else. its not just the military but the entire nation.

  104. I still really like Rolo. V.V. mentioned that Rolo’s heart stops when he uses his geass though… Somehow I think this little tidbit is how Rolo is going to die. “Nii-san needs me! GEASS! Oh wait, no air.” *DIES* It fits him I think.

  105. @gp where do u get the idea from that cornelia was trying to help euphie become empress???? she wanted the present a resistance free area 11 as a gift to here, but she rejects most of euphies ideas including the SAZ.
    as for nunally becoming empress, its funny because jsut before reading your post i came up with the very same idea. nunally as empress is probably the best possible ending, though its a moot point to ask what lelocuh would do. the moment nunally is empress all his goals are achieved (if she is for real not just a figurehead) in fact i think that if it came to that, lelocuh will be mostly responsible for it( even if hes not directly aiming at as stated above, though the SAZ was euphies idea the fact that it was allowed by schneizel is a direct consequence of the BK’s resistance)

  106. @Quickstryke

    EVeryone? So the show flat out states everyone doesn’t like Suzaku? I clearly remember parts in episodes where many japanese and britannians are shown to either hate him or not. When was it every japanese person?

    You know, there are lots of people who want their freedom and pride back but that doesn’t mean they agree with doing it Lulus way. Not everyone is ready to go to war and risk their lives. You only have to look at the real world to see this. What Suzaku is trying to show is that Japanese and Britannians can co-exist. And more so to show the Britannians that the Japanese aren’t some trash to be tossed away. The point here is that if one man can find a way to live with others then so can everyone else.

    You need understanding between people to get true peace. War and killing each other doesn’t give you that.

  107. Am I the only one who connected the Geass massacre with the massacre of Japanese?

    Lelouch obviously has been disturbed by the death of Shirley, and is taking his revenge. Perhaps that is why Charles has brought his son to the Sword of Akasha? To congratulate him for what he has done?

    I would think if the whole Charles-Lelouch thing is resolved soon, it’s gonna be Schenizel-Lelouch.

    Anything can happen.

  108. @org

    Yeah Cornelia didn’t agree with her, because it’s a naive thinking (the SAZ). But don’t forget that Cornelia would do anything for her little sister, even help her be queen. That part is gone now so we can debate it to no end without getting anywhere though.

    As for Schniezel, He’s not the type to really be pushed into something by someone else (like the BK/Zero) He himself agreed with the basic idea of Euphies thinking, that is, you can’t go around tossing everyone outside of Britannia away, iirc he says you “need new blood” that is that you should try to live with others as well or you’re only hurting yourself. I don’t think at this point that Schniezel is a radical, “kill everyone else”, psycho like his dad. But we’ll have to wait and see.

  109. @invAZN

    You’re right, the events in s2 are more or less mirroring the events in s1 until now. Episode 15+ will be the start of the fianl arc in the story it seems. So a good 10 episodes to end everything.

    Shirleys death mirrors Euphies death also, and so on.

  110. Wow. I’m kind of surprised on the amount of hate for Suzaku here, and he hasn’t even stuck the needle yet. I wonder if people are angry because Suzaku is using refrain on someone, or that he’s using refrain on Kallen, who he once considered a friend? Suzaku would have probably have used Geass if he had it, but he doesn’t, so he as to resort to a more clumsy solution.

    This episode just another case of Suzaku’s (tragic?) fall from being the moral boy scout to a pragmatic person in Lelouch’s level after Euphie’s death. It would be interesting to see if he will stop regretting the deaths he caused like he used to early in his quest for a better Japan, or if he actually kills someone in cold blood (like how Lelouche killed Clovis) and not for the greater good.

    Meanwhile, because of Shirley’s death Lelouch has gone one step closer to becoming his father with the slaughter of unarmed people. By the end of the series you will either have Lelouch having a crisis of identity in being like his father, or ebmracing his new self and becoming the new bad guy.

    Consequently, I’m more interested in Cornelia’s fate. She gave up everyting to avenge Euphie. Will she contemplate joining the Knights to complete the job? I’m thinking “No” since Lelouch is still around, but, hey, weirder things have happened on this show. What would Guillford think if she does join?

  111. -GP-
    Good point. I didn’t see the Shirley-Euphie mirror. Someone both close to the protagonists.

    When does the Geass stop Rolo’s heart? Did I miss something, or is this something else?

  112. I don’t understand why people are harping on how Lulu killed Euphie, the “love of Suzaku’s life” when if anything, she was closer to Lulu. Think about how many times he shed tears over her death compared to Suzaku. Heck think about how many times Suzaku cried over killing his own father

    Also I don’t understand this crusade some certain people have here about how Lulu is just as bad as Suzaku and that they understand the series so deeply while “most viewers are just completely missing the point of the series”. From the comments here, I think the majority of the people do get that Lulu is evil, and his methods as questionable, if not more, as Suzaku’s.

    But the key point is that Lulu is more likeable and his failings are acknowledged by himself. Meanwhile Suzaku is morally self-righteous and self-justified, who thinks that he knows everything, that he’s right and all those who disagree with him must be unenlightened n00bs without the intelligence to figure things out. This is what makes him an arrogant prick and detested by many people. If I was in the mood to flame, I’d compare his personality to the crusaders I mentioned above, but no need to go there right? 😉

  113. @gp
    about schneizel, ure certainly right hes sovereign enough not to be pushed around, and he realizes as said in ep 11, thats its the people that that make the country, but still he choose the SAZ because he saw it as the most efficent way to get rid of the BK( at least he says so in R1).
    of all the royal family im most intrigued by him, especially because he seems to be a rather good guys, but still though his actions seem to be rather nice (retreating in ep 11, approving of the SAZ in R1 and going the negotiating way instead of war in ep 12), its still the fact that in all those cases he chooses the most efficent way, so we’re not able to tell if hes doing what hes doing because its efficent or because hes a nice guy.
    finally what intriugues me the most, is the fact that hes the one who most probably will have ninas nuke under control, which gives the possibility of a rather nasty awakening from the good guys image.

    finally about the emp and vv lying “again” to him. i think most likely vv is behind marrianes murder and thats the first lie.

    ps. watching this series i somehow find myself to be a bit sadistic, by enjoying the evil guys (lulu included), so for that and for the megatwist id love to see emp+lulu team up (though its highly unlikely)

  114. @squirrel

    We aren’t shown what Suzaku thinks or feels nearly as much as we are with Lulu. It’s the difference in being the main character. That said the show will also give him the better view because it’s about him. You could argue that if the show was about someone else and lulu still did the same stuff he’d come off looking different. The thing is we know what he’s actually thinking way more than the rest of the characters.

    I don’t see how pointing out that they’re the same in many areas is actually a “crusade” when it’s true really. People who point this out aren’t trying to change what others think really, and when it comes to shows you can’t. But then why not try and point things out anyways? Is it somehow wrong? I mean not everyone is flat out flaming or bashing a character in this case. What a few people are stating is that they’re both wrong and they’re both right, and that’s what the show is working with.

    I really don’t see their way of thinking as being different, though again we just have a deeper inside into lulu so we have a fuller picture of what’s going on.

  115. quote from ya:
    Lelouch killed unarmed civilans that seems pretty assholish to me.

    i disagree, first of all they may not have physical weapons, but they have geass users, so theyre not really unarmed
    and second even if u say theyre unarmed theyre hardly free of sin, as said before if theres anyone to blame for shirleys death its the order cause they made rollo into a crazy killer guy.

    btw i still wonder if lulus geass running wild at euphie wasnt somehow triggered by vv

  116. @org

    Well yeah, the SAZ would put an end to the BK attacks and yeah that’s also why he agreed to it, but wouldn’t you also? I’d go with it if it put an end to attacks and also worked to mend ties between the two peoples.

  117. @ gp “I really don’t see their way of thinking as being different, though again we just have a deeper inside into lulu so we have a fuller picture of what’s going on.”

    im not a suzaku basher, but to me theres a clear difference in their way of thinking.
    i wrote this some episodes ago, the difference between them becomes most obvious in R1 ep when they explain their reasoining to cc and euphie. theyre the same all the way until the end. then suzaku admits of not knowing what to do, while lulu exactly know what has to happen. the problem with suzaku is that hes an idiot(as he himself admits), which means he cant think far ahead enough to pull the “the end justifies the means” card. he cant calculate possible endings and weigh them against the cost of achieving them, therefore he tries to do morally “right” actions and hopes that will help.
    lelouch on the other hand can calculate those ends and therefore justify actions that at first look morally wrong.

  118. in response to 9:45

    yeah sure i would do the same, the point is in order for him to qualifie as a good guys hed have to do it even without it being beneficial to him. i mean he couldve helped the elevens loong ago before. im just saying we yet have to see his true face and seeing how he seems to be so nice together with the fact that hes(probably) the one with the nuke and the way this show twists and turns around, its my feeling that hell turn out to be a pretty nasty badass

  119. i think suzaku is obsessed with lulu being zero. I think deep down he really wants him to be zero.

    and he thinks that lulu would kill shirley but cant he see that lulu loved her as a good friend?

    suzaku is on crack.

  120. Some things to mention about a couple of comments (hope I didnt miss anything)
    1. There is no evidence that states Hitler was Jewish (response to someone who said he was)
    2. Lelouch is very similar to Suzaku actually. Lelouch claims to be doing things in the name of justice but what he is doing isnt exactly just. His massacre is inspired by a single death.
    3. Wrong + wrong =/= right. As C.C stated, after Lelouch states he will use evil to destroy evil, C.C states evil will still remain.

  121. i disagree, first of all they may not have physical weapons, but they have geass users, so theyre not really unarmed
    and second even if u say theyre unarmed theyre hardly free of sin, as said before if theres anyone to blame for shirleys death its the order cause they made rollo into a crazy killer guy.

    Yeah, you are just look at them use those Geass weapons when the knightmares were ripping them apart with bullets..wait. Lol Lulu fanbois defy logic.

    Rolo killed Shirley because he was protecting Lulu who was in turn manipulating him. Lulu could have stopped him early on to prevent Shirley’s death,but chose not to. Thier guilt still doesn’t make Lulu God nor does it give him the right to gun down unarmed civilans as if he were one.

  122. @Org Yeah, you are right just look at them use those Geass weapons when the knightmares were ripping them apart with bullets..wait. Lol Lulu fanbois defy logic. He slaughtered those researchers in cold blood and acted exactly like the enemy making him little more than a hypocrite. Thier guilt still doesn’t make Lulu God nor does it give him the right to gun down unarmed civilans as if he were one.

    Rolo killed Shirley because he was protecting Lulu who was in turn manipulating him. Lulu could have stopped him early on to prevent Shirley’s death,but chose not to.

  123. im certainly not a lulu is god fanboy
    to draw the line at its ok to attack/kill someone because he has a weapon in his hands is ridiculous(for example would cry out nooo hes unarmed if for example at the end lulu and suzaku stand before the emp and want to finish him off). the question is whether or not theyre enemies and they definitly are (they even struck the first blows). i dont say its nice or morally correct to kill off the children but then tell whats your alternative to attack them with the knightmares??? do nothing? go in unarmed and ask them to surrender?

    as for lulu being guilty of rolo acting that way. definitly not. certainly rollo did it to protect him, but the logic that to care of a problem means to kill comes from the order, if anything by giving rollo something like a life hes countering that effect (though not very effectivly or the results would be different)

  124. @org You certainly sound like a Lulu is god fanboy considering your argument amounts to “It’s ok to commit genocide if another nation/person/whatever is your enemy”

    Rolo could have appealed to the kids because they trusted him enough to let down their guard. We don’t even know what would have happened because Lulu wiped them all out because of his choice to use a psychotic like Rolo. Using a monster to kill another monster still makes you a fool and the consquences usually speak for themselves.

  125. Hey guys, I have noticed something here. The knightmare frame which was behind Marianne was shown in Season 1. Marianne’s knightmare model is the same with the one who made the huge pizza in Season 1.

    Marianne’s Knightmare frame.

    Pizza Maker Knightmare frame.

    Well, I was surprised when I saw the knightmare frames have the same model.

    Any comments with this?

  126. what if V.V. has the same “sickness” rolo has for lelouch. instead of “onii-san”, “ototou-san”. that might be the reason why v.v. killed lady marianne. the reason why rolo killed shirley.

  127. Wow, there’s some spectacular Suzaku hate going on here. I don’t hate Lelouch at all, but I don’t see how people decide that Suzaku is evil because he merely threatened harm on Kallen (which was, admittedly, cruel and hypocritical) while Lelouch cold-bloodedly ordered the execution of women and children and innocent researchers by projecting his own grief and anger onto them. At the cost of hundreds of lives, I hope Lelouch feels better, now.

    Oh, well. Those are just my thoughts. Not to say that Suzaku is in any way better than Lelouch; they’re equally disturbed and damaged, but in different ways. It comes down to picking your poison, and which kind of mental illness and dark motives you prefer.

    I loved the ep, though.

    And I felt sorry for V.V. a little bit at the end. As odd as that may sound.

  128. @Ya & org

    This is basically what the show is doing guys, as others have said no one is 100% good or 100% evil. I don’t even think the emperor is 100% even actually. YOu can bang home the idea of “the ends justify the means” but that in itself lies heavily on ones morals. I think the writers are blurring the lines between what Lulu does/thinks and also the same for Suzaku and leaves it up to the viewers to decide if they think the actions both do are justified or not.

    The other thing here is that there are consequences to everyones actions, and Lulu is finally starting to feel that. Nothing bangs that idea home more than Shirleys death though. I suppose the saying “if you play with fire you can get burned” applies here?

  129. Correction: Lelouch is portrayed as the hero and Suzaku as the antagonist. While that specifically alone doesn’t generate all the hatred against the latter of the two, the way in which they are depicted is the major factor. Considering that you have Lelouch who’s had all these obstacles stacked against him (death of Mother, dealing with blind sister, etc.), it’s impossible for the average fan to dislike the guy. Compared to Suzaku, he is a godsend. Suzaku is portrayed as mentally unstable and the show consistently highlights more of his negative aspects (killing his father with a very unclear explanation, committing atrocities, etc.).

    So why is this? Because the protagonist drives the show, and Lelouch is the protagonist. The directors want you to feel sympathy for the main character (you might argue that there are more main characters in this show, but it is heavily clear who the focus is on in this series). The directors want you to adopt that character’s view. That’s how a show becomes successful. Arguably, there are many shows where the main focus of the show isn’t always the most popular (Naruto for instance), but particularly with this series, it works so well in that there is an intricate plot combined with a character who can drive the show (it is undeniable that Lelouch is a very complex character ). As long the main character isn’t disliked by a majority of the folk, then the show has reached its goal.

    Anyway, I’d have to personally say that it’s laughable that even the slightest questionable action that Suzaku commits causes commotion amongst viewers when compared to Lelouch who has just as well committed many atrocious deeds (though arguable not as many). Yet people identify those deeds with a “means to an end” and Suzaku’s actions are simply because he is a prick and not attempting to achieve anything of his own accord. You’re more or less at the director’s mercy, and they’re more than likely if not to toy with your emotions. But hey, there’s always a hidden masochist in people.

    Honestly though, if you’re using words such as “hate” or “like” to describe your own judgment of characters, you’re simply taking into their personalities. Any actions characters take are simply to incense you more to either liking or disliking them.

  130. I don’t get why we have to find whose to blame for Shirley’s death, she’s dead and that’s that.
    But if you REALLY want to know the “who could be blamed” then there’s many.
    Shirley herself – she wouldn’t have died if she listened to the guard, now would she?
    Suzaku – He should have made sure she was safe first then go do whatever his knight of round job was there.
    Rollo – He shot her….xD
    Lulu – He was the reason for Rollo to pull the trigger.
    The Order – Well, they’re the ones that created Geass and turned Rollo into who he was.
    Also, in this show you can’t really ‘hate’ anyone, since it’s all shades of grey, you can’t even really ‘hate’ the Emprorer (Wow…I can’t spell) since we don’t even know if he’s even guilty of anything, bedsides for the fact that he kicked Lulu and his sis out of Brit.

  131. @GP I agree that we’re shown more “sympathetic” moments for Lulu since yes he’s the star of the show

    I’m just pointing out that is why more people like him and criticize Suzaku, even if they do equally bad things. It doesn’t mean that those people are shortsighted for not realizing the difference.

    I recall a Lex Luthor / Superman comparisons.
    If you’re only shown Lex’s side of things as a compassionate character and you see him continually harassed by this guy that flies around in a cape ruining his day, maybe you’d think Superman to be a righteous freak and not like him? Does that mean you’re stupid for being tricked? Or maybe that is in fact the show’s point; to make you sympathetic towards the main character and it’s doing its job well?

  132. I doubt anyone is going to be convinced from their own arguments…soo….anyways, anyone else notice that during the scene when Dietard was briefing other Black Knights that Toudou and Nagisa are in the same room?

  133. I regard Suzaku as a permanent annoyance to the show.
    Yes, Lelouch is not a saint and we all know it, and being an anti-hero is what makes this anime great. But well, if Lelouche crossed the line in this ep and started a massacre, is not really sth to be surprised, anyway he’s still as gray as usual, that souldn’t be to debate even if he goes sometimes for the “follow your heart thing”, he’s still a self-proclaimed evil character.
    But the Suzaku hate exists because; He(Suzaku), in order to finish the evil in the world(Britannia), joins it “to change it from the inside” -he turned into this evil-, then comes another “evil” (Lelouche), and then he goes and turns into this last (the end justifies the means) and in the end he’s both kind of evils he despises. But my point here is, he just turned into a new, self-acknowledged idiot, HYPOCRITE and unnecessary wannabe-character-like Lelouche. But what pisses me off is he still thinks what he does is the best!, -someone shoot him please-.

    Black Prince
  134. This episode was a little suprising.Suzaku has definately changed since the first season and I think that he will use refrain on Kallen so much that she”ll end up like her mom but Lelouch probally will snap her out of it.What makes me wonder about the series is what is Marianne’s conection to the geass and is she a geass user?

  135. I like how all the fans seem to KNOW what all the characters are thinking, especially Suzaku.

    Seriously, the Suzaku-hate-while-apparently-Lelouch-is-so-much-better believers are pretty blind to the fact that Lelou isn’t better at all, and it’s annoying at this point. Of course, I’m sure fans have tried to “justify” how Lelouch is better by reading their minds already, right?

  136. Its rather funny. This show has so many contradictions and mistakes yet maintains integrity.
    Remember that episode where over a million people fled Area11 with that stupid excuse of being Zero? That was absurd and it was an episode of desperation by the anime company, it just proves that they do the series on the fly and its plot was not thought of prior to the anime’s initiation.

    Suzaku is hypocritical and basically insane – what can you expect form someone who killed his own father for doing the “wrong” thing at an age that can’t distinguish right from wrong yet (Not on that big war scale).

    As for Zero he is a prodigy that comes around rarely, he is amoral and prefers logic to dictate his actions, and his emotions just serve as an anchor not to become a machine, I think he prefers it this way.

    Its funny that Suzaku hates Zero for killing off his lovely princess, he ‘geassed’ her accidentally with an absurd joke that was unlike of Zero (another fault of the anime company behind the series)and then he killed her – pronouncing aloud to cc that he has to make the most of the situation when in reality it was what she would have wanted – rather then be a slave of ‘geass’ forever and commit more genocide.

    I can read this anime like an open book, an unworthy anime if compared to one such as Madlax.

  137. you know what i think is?
    i believe Lelouch is portrayed as a hero by the director’s but hes not and neither is suzaku.
    i mean the only reason better say force that’s driven
    Lelouch to defeat his own kind and restore the lives of the japanses is a gruge and his sister. he’s not so intrested in being A hero, more like playing a hero so with that ideal in ppl’s heads he can manipuate everyone and defeat his enemy. emphasis on [his]
    not the japanese. suzaku could have been the real hero yet the events that unveiled with euphy’s death by the hands of zero meaning of course Lelouch, suzaku became full of hatered and began feeling an immense desire for revenge and he so he’s joined the britainnians just for his revenge so both Lelouch and suzaku are driven by revenge.
    rolo is sinical and probably grew without someone loving him. hes a tickingtime bomb but zero insists on using rolo for his benefit i highly doubt rolo will live… lelouch isn’t roo kneen on letting him live.
    as for kallen brace yourself emotional wreck kinght rounds is gonna crawl up ur ass.

  138. another awesome ep…i have to admit that i thought that lelouch would be angrier and more passionate about shirley’s death..i mean destroying the source of all geass is all good and well, but i don’t know, after him going totally depressed and almost using refrain on himself a couple of eps back, i thought that this death would have a more emotional impact on him…maybe it just means he has grown as a character…but whatever..

    i am looking forward to seeing what happens next week now that lelouch and his father are finally on equal footing…if you get what i mean. i don’t know who will be more powerful, but i wonder if lelouch will lose his cool with daddy right in front of him..i would like to know the connection between charles and v.v. but i don’t think that that will be explained…also that clip with young charles and marianne still alive was interesting…

    well anyway, this ep raised a ton of questions for me, and although it was another wonderful ep, it makes me wonder if they will make code geass into a 3 season show..i think they could, but they also probably wont, i just hope they don’t rush the final eps if this is indeed the last season.

    oh and for the record, suzaku has turned into a real sob, and although i wanted him to die before, i hope he rots in hell now too…his character is just appalling.

  139. Anyone else catch that even though karen knew who zero was she still didnt know he was the prince. she seemed pretty suprised nunnally was a princess.

    And one interesting aspect for the karen situation would be if suzaku used refrain to make her tell that zero was lelouch and nunnally overheard.

    I dont know how true this is but heres some interesting spoilers i found for the next couple eps.
    Show Spoiler ▼

  140. @ Omni –
    IMO reacting the way he did to Rolo was the right thing to do. If he had retaliated against Rolo he would probably be dead. If he tried to attack Rolo, he could easily use his Geass to dispatch Lelouch. If he tried to use Geass on Rolo, he’d have to take out his contact lens, which Rolo could see coming from a mile away. Thus, the only reasonable course of action to take was compliment Rolo for a job well done and then plan to kill him later.

  141. Nothing ever changes as far as comments on this show goes. I’m still waiting for somebody to say something really profound. First everybody will have to can their egos and stop acting like experts on everything under the sun. That’s never likely to happen though. Take a few courses on creative writing, maybe write a screenplay or two and then everyone come back and preach about what is and what isn’t acceptable as far as any TV show goes. Maybe take a course in literature too.

  142. Lelouch ordered the Black Knights to kill the researchers, but in defense of him they were working for the enemy. If blowing up a lab full of unarmed scientist meant stopping the development of a weapon that could destroy your country, wouldn’t you do it? Sure, Lelouch was probably more motivated by his rage at that point, but he’d probably been planning to take down the cult for some time. Shirley’s death was just the hammer driving the last nail in the coffin.

    And I agree that most people dislike Suzaku because we only see his bad moments, but don’t forget he’s the one who let Lelouch and the OBK escape in the first place, and that wasn’t the Geass’ work, either. He’s no different from Lelouch in the fact that he’ll do anything to achieve his goal, he just tries to put on a righteous air while doing it.

  143. A lot of people do a lot of stupid things in their grief and anger.

    I mean, c’mon, what basis did Lelouch have to kill unarmed geass researchers? If his reason is that geass made Shirley’s life miserable and ended it, that’s pretty weak. He should blame the emperor, Mao, Rolo, and himself. The researchers goal isn’t to make the life of some random schoolgirl miserable. And other geass users had nothing to do with her.
    I could’ve accepted Lelouch using the geass order to his advantage against Britannia. At least that would have some point in doing so.

    as for Suzaku, he’s becoming more and more hypocritical every day. Use refrain on Kallen (thus making her life a mess) just to squeeze out some proof that Lelouch is Zero so that he can have his petty little revenge by killing him is exactly as pointless as killing the geass lineage.

    crash & burn
  144. Lol Kaioshin, I realized that a couple weeks ago when i was thinking about posting a comment on here, complaining about character decisions, actions and events is really just complaining about the writers choices. I often wonder what i would do, I don’t think i could write a better story per se, but at time i think they could have made more interesting decisions.

    What really annoys me about Rollo killing Shirley is that they portrayed him as having grown, I know a lot of people don’t think so, but i was under the impression that his wish for Lelouch to protect their life at the academy was a step forward for him, becoming more than just a psycho. The last time we saw him as a psycho was when the agent overheard the geass conversation. This being before his confrontation with Lelouch and their new relationship. This was further reinforced when he didn’t kill villetta, in that moment in time she betrayed lelouch, if rollo was still psycho that should have been instant death. Yet here we have villeta still alive, shirley dead and “Psycho Rollo” the culprit. Furthermore Im pretty sure at this point Rollo would also know that killing Shirley wouldnt make Lelouch, happy whatever the situation, and furthermore it doesnt protect their life at the academy, its a move that destroys it.

    I can’t help but feel sorry for Rollo, his past was a sad one, and the writers tossed aside the all the progress he had made to progress the story.

  145. After this episode I want to see something happen. Nunnally seems to like to visit Kallen so they can talk.I doubt the first time Suzaku uses Refrain on Kallen it will work. He’ll probably have to keep doing it. I so want Nunnally to find out he’s torturing Kallen. In a calm tone she asks him to come closer. She gently rests her hand on his cheek, and then soundly slaps him across the face. telling him that he’s no longer welcome as his representative.
    I doubt this will happen, but I just want to see some of Marianne’s fiery personality I’ve heard so much of in Nunnally. I’ve read about how Marianne was kind, strong, but not afraid to shy away from a fight.

    Can you imagine when Kallen gets out of this how much she is going to HATE Suzaku? Before when they fought while she didn’t like him, for betraying Japan, can you imagine what she will do now that she will have a personal reason to hate him? For drugging and torturing her.
    I hope the next episode isn’t all about Lelouch in the World of C. I hope we get to see a little of the outside world as well.

  146. I saw as I was browsing 2 people mentioned thoughts that occured to me, Were either CC or VV responsible for Mariannes death??

    Its also the first time that we see Charles show concern for Lelouch. Ive been of the opinion that in some sort of way Charles would be proud of Lelouch, given his beliefs and what Lelouch as Zero has been able to accomplish. But this is the first time I realized that they are very alike.

    There have been times when Lelouch has shown distaste for weak subordinates, that was one of his reasons for creating the Black Knights. Which leads me to believe that had it not been for Nunally he would share the same views as his father.

    Charles’ reaction to Lelouch questioning his failure to protect his mother is also something I could see Lelouch doing. Its not really the same per se, but Lelouch gave the same st6yle of reaction when Suzaku questioned him about Euphy. Euphy’s death was something that Lelouch regretted but he didn’t explain any of that nor the circumstances to Suzaku. Allowing Suzaku to come to a different (incorrect) conclusion just as Im sure we’ll eventually find out Lelouch did with his mothers death.

    The question that comes to mind now after seeing Charles, Marianne, CC and VV together, is why is Charles pursuing CC. All the implied reasons from the first series up to this point have pretty much gone out the window, which is what leads me to wonder if CC had a part in Mariannes death.

  147. Im really glad that the debate about Suzaku Lulu its finished already…
    I agree with splinter??, yeah I think it was him, that when they said people didnt get the idea of the show, thats so arrogant…
    Yeah we get the fact that both of em are the same, gray characters, antiheros… bla bla, but obviosuly people will go with one of them, will choose one, the one who they think have more things in common… In fact I can hardly see “good” characters in this series, thats what keeps me in my place when I see a new chap… and then whats good?everybody here has a different concept of good and evil…
    Even they are the same, the fact that I like Lulu more than Suzaku its because he is more intelligent and Suzaku is naive… but in their evil percent theyre the same…
    So just get over it and enjoy the show thats the point of it, If you dont like it dont watch it…

  148. I finally get to see some scene’s of Charles in which he actually looks decent enough that I can uderstand why women might have wanted him, besides for power, status and wealth.

    For some reason, I am not looking forward to Rolo’s dead. he’s just somewhat messed up, but it isn’t his fault: nobody actually educated him on how things should be and what he should do instead. If you see the children at the Order who seem pretty happy to kill anyone who is a threat or could be one, you can understand what kind of upbringing he had. All they seem to know to solve a obstacle is “killing it”. And if you learn it from such a young age, you get used to it and probably don’t really see what is “supposably” bad about it.

    Rolo is somewhat similar in his devotion to Lelouch as his brother as Kallen was in the first season to Zero. Rolo is a one track mental case. And that he will be betrayed by the only one he really cared about and basically has never been loved by anyone at all. Doesn’t make his trigger happy instincts alright, but it is pretty sad.

    Oh well. We knew he was most likely not going to survive for some reason or another (I guess I am not that broken up about it XD). Maybe Lelouch will be laughing in his face a la Kira towards L from Death Note when he kills him, if he is the one who is actually there, when Rolo is killed.

    Btw, Lelouch, you really didn’t need to stand that close to Rolo to tell him the destruction of the Order was needed for their happiness. Is he trying to seduce shota!Rolo? Or does he just want to spawn loads of doujinshi?

    And wow, Lelouch and Suzaku are both starting to accumulate a list full of things they should not do or should not have done.

  149. To be fair, if it is someone else like Lelouch instead of Suzaku, we’ll probably praising him for using a drug to find about the truth of the death of a good friend. Suzaku has good reason to suspect Lelouch. Three of them were at that location before the incident. Suzaku also know about Lelouch back when he was Zero killed Euphy. So to Suzaku, it is not crazy to think that Lelouch killed Shirley if he remembered and became Zero again.

    To find out if Lelouch is Zero from Kallen, I think using the drug is a less harmful alternative than using other method like tortures. Shirley was his friend, Kallen was also his friend so Suzaku is trying to use a method that is not going to seriously harm Kallen.

  150. @oneg
    The Ganymede was Marianne’s knightmare which was designed by the Ashfords. It was definitely stated in season 1 that it was her knightmare and that the design was discontinued after her death. I don’t know if it was stated within the show that the Ashfords designed it but I know that one of the picture dramas stated that the Ashfords used to make knightmares – including the Ganymede – until they ran out of money because Milly’s grandfather spent too much of it on parties. It is not at all a coincidence that Marianne’s knightmare ended up with the Ashfords and thus at the school where it was used to toss the giant pizza.

  151. Given V.V.’s reaction when Jeremiah mentioned Marianne, I get the impression that V.V. was jealous of Marianne – probably because he wanted Charles all to himself. It’s rather like Rolo and Lelouch really. In either case, I bet that there’s a good chance that V.V. had Marianne killed because he was jealous of her. Charles didn’t move against him because V.V. is his brother.

  152. You know, I’m starting to wonder if those spoilers/speculations at the bottom of (which Sunrise supposedly tried to get taken off of the blog they were originally posted on) are actual spoilers. It doesn’t actually state that Shirley will die – though it does state that Lelouch was going to lose her (which prior to her death could have meant a number of things). The part that really makes me wonder is the fact that it mentions Rolo’s weak heart which was not mentioned in the show prior to episode 14. I believe that that is the only spoiler/speculation listed there that has come true thus far, but none of them has been proven false. Given the episode summaries for upcoming episodes (which you can find at ), I’d have to say that at least one or two of the other items on that list of spoilers/speculation are likely to come true.

    There is, of course, no proof at this point that they’re anything other than pure speculation, but given how precise they are and the correct prediction about Rolo’s heart, it does make me wonder.

  153. Did any one else notice that the date on Shirley’s coffin was wrong? It said 2000 – 2017 when the year in R2 is 2018….

    I do have to wonder about Lelouch not showing up at the funeral. It looks bad if nothing else, but I guess that he was just too angry and wanted to do something about it. His initial reaction to Rolo was likely the correct one given that Rolo could easily kill him using his geass if Lelouch wasn’t fast enough at using his. Still, he should probably have just detonated Rolo’s knightmare at some point. He’s killing all these geass researchers and yet leaving the actual culprit alive. Granted, I’m not sure that Rolo really deserves death for what he did – he’s pretty messed up after all – but if Lelouch is going to kill him, he should just kill him already. Rolo just proved himself to be a walking liability after all.

    I’m not really sure what Lelouch should have done with the Cult. He probably should have discussed it with C.C. rather than just killing them all (it’s likely going to cause problems with the BK on top of whatever the morals of the situation are), but considering how dangerous they are, he probably wasn’t really going to able to stop them any other way at this point. Still, it was not exactly his most shining moment.

  154. Well, as some have said the whole lelouch & Suzaku debate should really die down since really everyone can agree that they’re even more similar now than they where before. This whole thing just plays into Sunrises writers hands really. They wanted fans to think and act this way so it’s a great move on their parts story wise.

    But in the end the edge will always go to Lulu since he’s the main character. It’s a Kira & Arthrun bit all over, just with more gray in the middle than what SeeD had going.

    That aside, fans will either like one, both, or neither. Those who hate both don’t like the show in general though. I for one hold both at around the same level, having a better insight into what Lulu thinks and why he does what he does makes all the difference on his part. As for Suzaku we at best get tiny tidbits in comparison.

    Some of the more vocal fans on the lulu side might hate this idea but I still believe (and if the ED holds any meaning) that they’ll end up working together again. That small part in season 1 when they had the same enemy/goal was just a taste of it really. And again, this is just something Sunrise does often, but more so in their gundam shows.

    It all depends on the next episode though and what the Emperor is trying to do and says. I somehow feel that whoever he and VV are actually trying to “kill” is somehow the real enemy to the world. The OP seems to show that everyone is fighting some big bad enemy in space? Maybe I’m wrong but it does look like that. Add to this all those signs of Jupiter in space, and where do the Geass/Order people come from? Who made and actually controls these powers? It just seems like there is a bigger force at work here. So I dunno, we could be in for some big twist in a few eps, and I wouldn’t actually be shocked at this point.

  155. “but I still believe (and if the ED holds any meaning) that they’ll end up working together again.” – agreed

    “It all depends on the next episode though and what the Emperor is trying to do and says. I somehow feel that whoever he and VV are actually trying to “kill” is somehow the real enemy to the world. The OP seems to show that everyone is fighting some big bad enemy in space? Maybe I’m wrong but it does look like that. Add to this all those signs of Jupiter in space, and where do the Geass/Order people come from? Who made and actually controls these powers? It just seems like there is a bigger force at work here. So I dunno, we could be in for some big twist in a few eps, and I wouldn’t actually be shocked at this point.”

    might be that ure right on that but i certainly hope its not that way, because seeing how cc is prime enemy of vv it would mean her being one of the bad guys.
    i hope well see marianne and possibly some of the other dead guys talking to lulu in the next ep ( after all its time for redemption how to better do that then let the victims have a word)

  156. @org

    Well, no, it might not. I think with this episode CC’s goal is met actually. It seems like she wanted to put an end to the order and geass in general, so now that’s happened. It doesn’t mean she’s a bad guy if what I think actually happens.

    Remember VV made it sound like some other force is controlling people etc, I forget how he words it in ep13 when he’s talking to Cornelia, but that’s the impression I got. Whatever/whoever VV and the emperor want to “kill” doesn’t necessarily put CC as one of the bad guys, she seems to just be another one of the “order” people who’s being used by this “other” power or w/e you want to call it.

  157. @GP
    I don’t think that C.C.’s wish has anything to do with destroying the cult. For one thing, she was very sad about it. If she thought that there was a better way, she didn’t bring it up, but she definitely seemed sad that things had to go that way.

    Also, when Lelouch asked what her wish was this episode, she said that it had nothing to do with the mission – which was to destroy the Cult – so I think that that pretty much makes it clear that destroying the Cult was not her wish and almost certainly wasn’t related to the Cult’s destruction in any way.

    Personally, I think that there’s a halfway decent chance that her wish is to die. She obviously can’t do that on her own. How Lelouch could help her with that, I don’t know, but it’s pretty much the only thing that I’ve been able to come up with thus far. The only other thing that I’ve been able to think of that might work would be if she wished to be Empress (at which point since Lelouch is a Britannian prince, he – or someone like him – would be necessary). Of course, I don’t think that her actions have supported such a goal and I don’t know why she’d want to be Empress, but other than wanting to die, that’s the only thing that I’ve come up with.

    In either case, I think that it’s pretty clear that destroying the Cult was not her wish.

  158. I’m betting on their motives like this:

    Emperor: Trying to groom Lelouch as his successor in the tough way (seeing how gar he looked while he was young, I just have a hunch that he’s still moé for Marianne and has the better in mind for their children) because he’s such an idealist of evolutionary betterment, and also wants to “get rid of the gods”, whatever that is.

    V.V.: Probably not entirely supportive of the Emperor’s decision(s) + simply goes along with him since they’re accomplices as they put it when it comes to “getting rid of the gods”, whatever it is.

    C.C.: Probably aware of these 2 motives from the pair, but has (in addition) plans of her (and Marianne’s) own. It has probably got something to do with Marianne’s semi-deathwish, and it should be more than taking care of Lelouch/Nunnally – it should include an intermediate to the events leading to Marianne’s death. I don’t think she wants to die, because that sort of storyline would trigger a flag between her and Lelouch, who obviously won’t want her to die, for reasons of which love inclusive – though he is probably not aware of it or it’s somewhere in his subconscious unless such a flag is triggered. But Sunrise won’t give us that sort of romance drama and will only leave it to us to play with the idea. And she won’t want to die because that sort of storyline would put Pizza Hut out of business too.

    Suzaku: Wants to die (under my hands).

  159. Suzaku. Refrain from using refrain!

    Okay. It’s a bad pun, I know. But I couldn’t help myself. I love puns too much to pass up on that one.

    Of course, as someone pointed out earlier, there’s no guarantee that Kallen will spill the beans when under the influence of refrain. It’s seems like it’s supposed to take the person back to the happiest time in their lives or somesuch – and for Kallen there’s a halfway decent chance that that was when she was a kid and her brother was still alive (which wouldn’t help Suzaku out with Zero at all). Also, how much attention does a refrainee pay to those around them and what they say when their under its influence? Can she even hear Suzaku ask her questions. And if so, what guarantee is there that she’d answer? If she realizes that it’s Suzaku talking to her, then it doesn’t matter what time period she thinks she’s in, she’s not going to spill the beans on Zero.

    Of course, the part that Suzaku appears to be overlooking is the fact that while Lelouch seems a likely culprit, even if he knew that Lelouch was Zero, that doesn’t prove that he killed Shirley. Besides, since at this point V.V. and the emperor know that Lelouch is indeed Zero, Suzaku isn’t really gaining anything from using refrain on Kallen (even if she does spill the beans) unless the emperor and V.V. weren’t going to tell him for some reason (or couldn’t for some reason). So, Kallen’s going to have a bad day to little or no purpose.

  160. Speaking of Pizza Hut, I’ve never seen Pizza Hut pizza that had cheese that dripped (like C.C.’s pizza likes to do). The cheese is always too firm. It must be being affected by the whole alternate universe thing too! LOL.

  161. @Kalessin

    No, that’s probably not her “wish” in the end, I think she probably wants to die but what I mean is that she wants the “geass” line to end with her. I believe she says as much in this episode. Sure she’s sad, because she could’ve probably helped those kids out some other way but left them in VVs hands. That doesn’t mean that destroying the order means you have to also kill everyone though. The thing is that part of her plans also covered ending the geass tests or w/e else the order did. Remember originally Lulu was going to take control of it not obliterate it. Sure CC doesn’t like what happened but she can’t back out and say NO to lulu now you know. So even though it was painful she went along with it.

    Thus I think ending the line of geass was also part of her “plans”, but maybe not her final “wish”. Those in the end are two different things.

    And as for the lulu and Shirley thing, sure it doesn’t prove he killed her BUT it makes him the prime suspect. You have to remember that he doesn’t know about Rollo switching sides, when you only have a limited amount of intel you can’t always be right. When thinking about Suzaku and so on you have to think not like one viewing the show (because we have all the information at hand) but as an outsider. What I’m trying to say is that if you just take the pieces Suzaku knows so far from past events and go with those lulu IS the prime suspect. Because we all know Shirley wouldn’t kill herself.

    And I think people are blowing the refrain bit too far, I don’t think he’ll use it, it’s a good threat though because we know how kallen is when it comes to the topic of refrain anyways. Besides guys, seriously, kallen is low on the totem pole at this point. Her part won’t get much higher than what it has already, she’ll fight etc etc (like the other pilots) but when it comes to individual character actions moving the plot, that falls down to lulu, cc, nunnally, suzaku and from the OP Schniezel as well.

  162. @GP
    Of course Lelouch becomes the prime suspect, but it doesn’t prove his guilt. Of course, Shirley was quite out of sorts that day. She did try to kill herself if you’ll recall. Still, she wouldn’t normally do that and she appeared to get over that problem after Lelouch and Suzaku saved her, so it really wouldn’t make sense for her to have committed suicide. Given the circumstances surrounding her death, Lelouch is indeed the prime suspect, but Suzaku seems to act like it almost has to be Lelouch who killed her – in spite of the fact that Lelouch was about as likely to kill her as she was to kill herself.

    It does make sense to try and determine once and for all whether Lelouch has his memories back and is therefore Zero, but I got the impression that Suzaku had just about already condemned him for Shirley’s death. He’s just become nastier and nastier ever since Euphemia died. He may or may not use refrain, but he sure seemed willing to. And since Kallen would never betray Zero, that pretty much guarantees that she’d refuse to spill the beans even when confronted with refrain. So, unless he’s just bluffing, he’s almost certainly going to use it on her. The only way I see out of it is if some else interferes.

  163. @Kalessin

    I’m not talking about proving his guilt, just that he’s the prime suspect. Once Suzaku knows for sure that lulu is Zero again he can then find out the truth behind Shirley and also Euphie and so on. Without being sure if he’s Zero again he can’t do anything really.

    Him becoming nastier after Euphies death it’s the same for Lulu after Shirleys death as well. I don’t wanna go back and forth about this because we’ve stated it to death but they’re more alike than anything. It’s also why they were good friends before. The key here is how losing someone really close to you will change you and also how different events shape people. Guilt, regret, anger and so on. Toss all these in there and any moral/naive sense of justice one had before can get tossed out the window in a flash. Sure it makes you a hypocrite from how you were before but then again in these types of situations people change regardless.

  164. Well, regardless of whether Suzaku finds out whether Lelouch is Zero from using refrain on Kallen or if V.V. or the emperor tell him, or if he finds out yet another way, I think that given the summary for episode 17 ( ), it’s pretty clear that he’ll know by the end of that episode if not before. I don’t think that the question has really ever been if Suzaku would find out about Lelouch being Zero but rather how and when he would find out.

  165. Yeah, that’s true

    The summary for ep17 if it’s true sounds like the final lulu vs suxaku showdown people have been screaming for. BUT if it is, then it’s nowhere near the end like I expected to tell you the truth. People might call BS or w/e but I don’t expect any big final showdown between the two like some might.

    Probably alot of dodging and screaming at each other, maybe with a cross-counter in there for the lulz 😛 But yeah, they’ll probably bark at each other about this and that and at the end of the ep, if not in the next, we’ll get some sorta mutual agreement ala sunrise.

  166. Truth be told, I don’t really expect much screaming in the like in their discussion. There will undoubtedly be plenty of accusations to around and lots of tense arguing, but if much screaming occurs, then things are likely to deteriorate pretty quickly. There wasn’t even all that much screaming in their confrontation at the end of season 1. It was only towards the end that that happened – and that resulted in them pulling guns on one another. So, unless they’re actually going to fight (which probably wouldn’t be good for Lelouch), I’d expect plenty of tense talking, arguing, accusations, etc. but not much screaming.

    From the summary, it sounds like Lelouch wants something from Suzaku and considering where they’re meeting, it’s likely that Suzaku wants something from him as well (probably an explanation about Euphemia) rather than just trying to arrest him. I expect them to come to some sort of temporary truce unless the predictions/spoilers that I mentioned earlier turn out to be true. If they are, then their discussion is going to end badly due to interference from Schneizel. In either case, if either of them wants anything useful to come from their discussion, they’re going to have to refrain from screaming at each other.

  167. @Kalessin

    Speaking of Suzaku’s use of Refrain on Kallen I can only see two different ways that Refrain could be used to get the information he wants.
    As we already know, Refrain make the user believe they are reliving some of the happiest moments of the past. This would most likely include her time when she was a child with her mother and brother, before the invasion. It doesn’t seem out of question that you ‘might’ be able to ask them questions. Suzaku could pretend to be her brother and ask her things, but you’d think her mind would only recall information from the time. She shouldn’t even know what Zero or Lelouch even are.

    The second way would be more reliable, but far more cruel. He would have to keep injecting her with this highly addictive drug. Get her body dependent on it and then offer to relieve the pain with more if she tells him the truth.
    Problem with that method is it would take a while.
    Either way we have seen that this drug can cause a lot of harm to the mind and the body.

    Isn’t anyone asking where Suzaku acquired what his beloved Britannia considers a controlled substance.
    Not sure Nunnally will be too happy if she finds out he’s torturing Kallen. from their conversation it sounds like the only person she gets to talk to is Suzaku. I bet Nunnally is feeling pretty lovely.
    Suzaku didn’t even call her Kallen. He addressed her by her prisoner number.

    One thing I notice can come out of this action. Before Kallen never really had a reason to ‘personally’ hate Suzaku. He was just the lead opponent on the other side. Now, when she gets out and recovers. She will have a LOT of reasons to truly and bitterly HATE him. I really look forward now to the next battle between the Guren and Lancelot.
    This action also destroys Suzaku’s supposed moral high ground about the ends not justifying the means.

  168. Show Spoiler ▼

    Final question: has ANYONE yet figured out the slightest bit of validity of suzakus stance prior to euphies death or tell me why i should feel sorry for him because its annoying me now! (this paragraph is shorter then i want it to be… i did this for you!)

    I will deem code geass the most elite anime ever (a title that in my mind cannot be undone ) if:

    Brittania loses its hold over the world at the very least

    Lelouch ends up with kallen or (at a push) C.C.

    Suzaku admits he is a moron in some grand speech that shows his remorse and apologises (AT THE VERY LEAST)

    Lelouch stops being Zero and re learns how to live without ploting against the rest of the world

    There is enough after story shown in the last episode to make me think things are over instead of just begining (guren lagann you dissapoint)

    The after story isnt excessively tragic (again guren lagann: how dare you!)

    The follwing characters either die or stop being crazy :Emperor, Nina, V.V. , Deithardt, gino, anya and the *anti-nunally* princess whos name i just cant quite remember

    Nunally is taken care of by someone other than lelouch or dies (because she gets in his way)

    Mia plays atleast a small role in the main story validating the hype that was given her voice actor (though it doubt this will happen)

    The following shack up or express thier feelings for one another (provided one half of the pair isnt dead!): Corneliaxguilford, ougixvilleta, Millyxanyone, Schnizielxanyone

    THEY UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES end it with lelouch going off into obsscurity like they did with Heero in Gundam Wing (it makes the efforts of the main character seem futile from a selfish standpoint if hes still miserable!)

    If the majority of these criteria are in someway covered or fulfilled then code geass will go down forever in the Chronicles of anime as a ‘PILLAR OF ANIME’ along with Dragonball Z, Sailor moon, and the first Ever series of Gundam and Macross (because before these there was nothing great (in same category) and after these i doubt there will be anything great (in same category)

    Also did anyone else not that chiba and todou are in a bedroom together!! nice to know todous finally getting some!
    (also i have a theory that special A is somehow a Code Geass after story!!! IT MAKES SENSE LOL 😛 think about it!)

    cant think of anything else to say … for now…

    WingZero zxt
  169. @Kalessin

    Well yeah, we have the same idea, I don’t actually expect much flat out screaming either. but I know some viewers probably want some epic fight to the death or something. Oh well.

    I looked at the link but It doesn’t say much about episode 18. I think if Schniezel does get in the way of them that it’ll be temporary in itself. In the end I think that the key is Nunnaly and her connection to the two. She is the only one who can make them understand each other and so on. And that’s what I think her final role will be actually.

  170. ohyeh that was another supposed spoiler if u remember! that lelouch confronts suzakua as lelouch/zero due to some kind of tricky dare and as a result lelouch gets arested by schniziel!!!! remember!

    WingZero zxt
  171. for whatever sake, Szaku has finally show his true self, or should i say the side which he tries so hard to hide while preaching almighty words of perfectness, idealisticness and justice. Let me see, who is the one say zero is wrong for using violent against britinia whom using violent to japanese in the first place? need i add he who-shall-not be-name going on a killing rampne when his stupid girl friend die while he condems the black knight for killing britinia (even though the black knight’s important persons also be killed by the britinia). Who condem zero for being evil and all and yet he did the same while hide his action under the name of justice? (at least zero frankly said he will use whatever mean nescesary). And now refrain? it doesnt matter if he did inject kallen with it or not, it is now clear that he is but just a denial bastard.

    And let me make this clear, zero is bad yes i mean bad. But still at least he is better than suzaku for he KNOW what he is doing is evil.

  172. Now, i would love to see how someone can defend suzaku action this time. But dont tell me it is because of his dead girl friend, his balalal whatever for he also deceives nunnally and ALL of his friend (oh, no he just let the emperor brainwah then all with his “yes, your highness” style). I dont think that something fitting for a man who is so idealistic no?

  173. cheers mysterious for our periodic suzaku hatered booster-shot. i stopped giving them because i usually gave overdoses resulting in a allergic reactio to suzaku hatred!!!

    WingZero zxt
  174. yes this is what has always annoyed me about suzaku! its not that he deos bad things like everyone in this series does ! its that he thinks hes on the side of PURE HEARTED GOODNES!!!!!! HOW!!!!????? HOW?????? he wasnt justified even before euphy died so euphys death ultimately has nothing to do with him being a moron!

    WingZero zxt
  175. Thank God Rolo didnt die, KNOW many wish him death for what he did to Shirley, but at least he did that for a reason, dont hate me for that, I loved Shirley as well. I hope not, but its probably, and the one to kill maybe is Lelouch or Suzaku, or perhaps sacrificing himself for Lelouch, but here’s the reason that Rolo cant die yet, why, because of the mistery ofhis locket, if it has a photo on it, whom is it, and it will be a surprise if he is really Lelouch’s brother, and Nunally’s twin, why, both have the same age and look almost the same, Rolo looks like Nunally, but in a male version, that would be a shocking one, that Lelouch kills him, and see the content of the locket.
    Another thing, what assasin did Charles refer, to Jeremiah, or Rolo, my guess is Jeremiah, besides Rolo was made Lelouch’s brother because of Charless Geass, it could be Rolo is his son too, soo that Rolo could have a normal life, perhaps the moment of the redemption that Charles meant, is him, not Lelouch, does he really care for him, why did he get mad when he discovered that V.V. lied to him… what will happen in the World of C… ahhhh, just hope Rolo lasts, he is one of the main ones, his role is for a reason… thank you Cornelia for saving him, please hope that Rolo is trully Marianne’s son as well as Nunally’s twin, and trully Lelouch’s brother, and reveal the secret of the locket, the locket has been shown always when Lelouch is mentioned, I dont think that is shown only because is his most precius possesion, but what is the photo if it has one… T-T, dont hate me for being on Rolo side, its not true, I love all the characters, I love Lelouch, Suzaku, C.C. , Nunally, Rolo, Karen, and all the characters, ah what will happen…

  176. I don’t get it. Why do people get so worked up on “good” and “evil”? This is a freaking war. No one who leads others into wars is “good”. That’s contradictory in of itself. War automatically implies lots of killing. To hate Lelouch for that because he caused people to die is laughable. The fact that he’s doing a lot of killing implies he’s good at what he does… which is killing opponents. And the reason I like him.

    Also, since when did killing civilians become horrible? Has Americans(at least I assume most posters here are American) become so disillusioned to think that global wars shouldn’t have massive amount of civilian casualties? That planes don’t bomb power plants or roads because it would lead to innocents dying? Kind of odd that causing people to die due to ruined economy and lack of supplies is okay, but a pinpoint strike at unarmed scientists is somehow horrendous.

  177. Suzaku ,you selfish unforgiving misguided hypocrite!!! How dare you force Kallen to do drugs! That is not the way how to interrogate witnesses!!!!

    I’m curious whether C.C. and Marianne are related or just friends……

    And also, I’m guessing that Charles is promoting Social Darwinism when he is appointed Emperor, because of his contract with V.V. which is to kill the gods and remove all lies in the world…..

    ….that white mask is probably the “God” which they are talking about since the God they decribes is not the ones we knew (like Zeus)

    BTW, this episode reminds me of the End of Evangelion and the game and movie Hitman. Why?
    *The massacre of the Geass Order reminds of the JSSDF killing most of the NERV staff in Evangelion
    *Those kids with Geass remind me that they are would-be-assassin clones and also Rolo is probably one of them….except he’s no Agent 47.

    And also, V.V. kind of look like Hao Asakura of Shaman King (in that part where his Siegfied got destroyed and he went freaking surprise)….

    And I’m guessing that when Jeremiah said that he is doing it for Marianne…V.V. got mad when he dares mentions that name….
    …I’m guessing that V.V. might be responsible for Marianne’s death

  178. @MABK
    Lelouch gave Rolo the locket. He treasures it because Lelouch gave it to him. It was his first birthday present. It represents a brotherly bond to him – which he didn’t really have before Lelouch; he was assassin. So, the locket represents his loyalty/fanaticism towards Lelouch. I don’t know what’s in it, but since it’s Lelouch that gave it to him – and a Lelouch with messed up memories no less – I don’t see how the picture in the locked (if there even is one) can be of much importance. The importance of the locket is that it represents Rolo’s connection with Lelouch.

    Personally, I feel badly for Rolo. He’s seriously messed up in the head due to a seriously messed up childhood. The brother that he loves isn’t really his brother and now wants him dead for what he did to protect his brother (though he doesn’t realize that Lelouch wants him dead). Unfortunately, there’s probably no saving him at this point and at the moment, there’s no way that Lelouch is going to want to. The supposed spoilers mentioned earlier stated that he died from his heart condition while saving Lelouch. I think that him dying while saving Lelouch would be a good way to go. There’s really no place for him in the long given how messed up he is and how Lelouch really feels about him, but dying protecting the brother that he loves would be a fitting way to go I think. I gets rid of him without feeling like you’re just getting rid of him.

  179. @Kalessin

    Speaking of Suzaku’s use of Refrain on Kallen I can only see two different ways that Refrain could be used to get the information he wants.
    As we already know, Refrain make the user believe they are reliving some of the happiest moments of the past. This would most likely include her time when she was a child with her mother and brother, before the invasion. It doesn’t seem out of question that you ‘might’ be able to ask them questions. Suzaku could pretend to be her brother and ask her things, but you’d think her mind would only recall information from the time. She shouldn’t even know what Zero or Lelouch even are.

    The second way would be more reliable, but far more cruel. He would have to keep injecting her with this highly addictive drug. Get her body dependent on it and then offer to relieve the pain with more if she tells him the truth.
    Problem with that method is it would take a while.
    Either way we have seen that this drug can cause a lot of harm to the mind and the body.

    Isn’t anyone asking where Suzaku acquired what his beloved Britannia considers a controlled substance.
    Not sure Nunnally will be too happy if she finds out he’s torturing Kallen. from their conversation it sounds like the only person she gets to talk to is Suzaku. I bet Nunnally is feeling pretty lovely.
    Suzaku didn’t even call her Kallen. He addressed her by her prisoner number.

    One thing I notice can come out of this action. Before Kallen never really had a reason to ‘personally’ hate Suzaku. He was just the lead opponent on the other side. Now, when she gets out and recovers. She will have a LOT of reasons to truly and bitterly HATE him. I really look forward now to the next battle between the Guren and Lancelot.
    This action also destroys Suzaku’s supposed moral high ground about the ends not justifying the means.

    I found it interesting just how well C.C. knows Lelouch. When he started talking about killing off the Geass Order. I don’t think cult works right since they were researchers of the Geass rather then worshipers. Once she heard the way he was talking she knew something must of happened.

  180. @Ramell

    Nunally’s going to free Kallen, that’s for sure… and about Rolo, probably Lelouch will make peace with him, but who knows, at least rebeal if Rolo’s locket has at least a photo about something important, not only that is his connection to Lelouch… perhaps he will save Nunally or something, now here’s the question, did Rolo killed Shirley because of jealusy towards Nunally for mentioning that she wanted to unite her with Lelouch, or, because she remembered her, and would become an ignorance… one ending I thinked was that Lelouch and Suzaku die, but that Rolo then protects Nunally, well, that was a fitting ending for me for Rolo, but now that he killed Shirley and Lelouch wants revenge on him, well, I dont know what to think now… C.C. and V.V. are a hard ones on imagine an endind, due to immortality, but who knows, as many say, this is SUNRISE, from the characters I/m going to name, the ones that will have most appearance are Lelouch, Suzaku, C.C., Nunally and Schizel, because of the opening of WORLD’S END, so perhaps Rolo migh die now, hope not a Azuka of End of Evangelion dying style, at least if Rolo dies hope in the 24 episode or in the final one… but at least I hope he survives soo he can change his life, but a hard one due to his mental state, but same for Lelouch and Suzaku, these two truly have a mental disorder.

  181. Suzaku is no longer a hypocrite. He’s fully embraced the “ends justifies the means” credo. He even says it himself. However, I think restoring Japan is no longer his top priority; avenging Euphie is.

  182. The difference between the use of geaass (Lelouch) and drugs (Suzaku) to get a response from Kallen is the side-effect, while geass gives inmunity and can’t be used twice in the same person, refrain cause addiction. To sum up, that drug has a “bad place” in Kallen memories (as we have seen in the first round [R1]).


    Backgrounds are all in well-made characters:

    Suzaku killed his father and for some reason he doesn’t have a mother.

    Lelouch saw how his mother was killed (he also believes that it was his own father)… adding that both of them were alone most of their childhood.

    Taking in consideration these facts, they can’t be good, they are insane. There’s no hero behind such psicologhical problems. Sunrise did a good job doing these two characters. They aren’t heroes, that is what Sunrise is trying to tell, keep that in mind, they to bad things (…).

    P.S: Why most anime’s principal character doesn’t have a normal family? and Why all those characters with “family breaks” normally becomes perfect heroes like naruto or ichigo? … i simply don’t get it, characters like that doesn’t have a clear background.

  183. @Z

    The answer to your question is simple. If the main character had a normal family, he’d never do anything worth animating. 🙂

    I mean, you can fight against empires, beat up monsters, but how would any shounen counter phrase “Son, you’re grounded!”

  184. By the way, someone was wondering about the fact that Kallen said that she didn’t know that Nunnally was a princess and was surprised by it – which they found surprising. My guess is that she did indeed know exactly who Lelouch and Nunally were by the time they were trying to save Nunally in episode 6 – if not before – since she knew Nunally and would certainly ask Lelouch about how on earth she was one of the royal family. Personally, I’d guess that Kallen actually found out from C.C. between R1 and R2 since it appears that she found out a fair amount about Lelouch and his Geass and the like in between seasons since – among other things – she appeared to know exactly how his Geass functioned which she would not have learned from their encounter with Suzaku at the end of R1.

    In all probability, Kallen was either commenting on the fact that she was surprised when she first heard that Nunnally was a princess, or she was acting like she just found out in an effort to protect Lelouch. In either case, I think that it wouldn’t make much sense for her not to have known once Nunnally showed up as the new governor since she’d definitely ask Lelouch at that point if she didn’t already know. In either case, if she was lying to Nunnally, I’d say that it was at most a white lie since she was bound to have been surprised that Lelouch and Nunnally were royalty when she found out – regardless of whether it was between seasons or around episode 6.

  185. @Remmell
    About refrain, I would guess that you can indeed talk to the person under its influence (if you’ll recall, in episode 9 of R1, it seemed like Kallen’s mother might have heard her when Kallen was yelling at her from her knightmare), but unless Suzaku can convince Kallen that he’s anyone other than Suzaku, there’s no way that she’s going to answer his questions. She’d have to let something slip while under the influence of the drug. Her control would certainly be diminished at that point, so if she’s taken back to a time period where she’s with the OotBK and knows that Lelouch is Zero (which really isn’t a very large span of time), then she might let something slip. But still, it seems like a long shot to me.

    In either case, I don’t think that Suzaku is trying to addict her and thus force her to talk. It would take far too long and she’s strong enough that I’m not sure that she’d ever tell anything about Lelouch to get more refrain. Certainly if she did, it would be that much longer before she reached that point.

    You do have a good point about how she’s more likely to hate Suzaku for personal reasons. Up to this point, I don’t think that either Lelouch or Kallen have really hated Suzaku. They’ve both been really ticked about what he’s done – especially Lelouch – but I’m not sure that they’ve outright hated him. I think that Lelouch and Suzaku were good enough friends that Lelouch doesn’t really want to hate him much as he hates what he’s done (the same goes for how Suzaku feels about Lelouch I think). Kallen hasn’t really even had the chance to hate him all that much since most of what he’s done has been anti-Zero – not strictly speaking against her – and most of their contact once he found out that she was a member of the OotBK was friendly; he was trying to convince her to switch sides. He’s now giving her an opportunity to outright hate him.

  186. about the refrain stuff,
    i somewhere heard, that kallen and suzaku will get into a fight (very liekly seeing how kallen isnt in chains or anything) then suzaku accidently gets stabbed by the refrain thing and starts having flashbacks of euphie. this makes sort of sense seeing how its storywise not necessary to drug kallen for the brits to know zeros identity, plus it might be the start for suzaku to turn around into the direction of cooperation with lelouch.

    about cornelia, seeing how she blames vv for euphies death i can see only two choices for what she knows about the geass/euphies death.
    either she just realised that euphie was geassed, but does not know zero identity(remember she forgot about that in R! 25) and therefore blames the order, this seems to be the more logical possibility.
    OR lelouchs failing geass in R1 22 was caused by vv and she found out(thats somewhat inconsistent but still possible)

  187. @org
    That would certainly be an interesting twist. I haven’t read anything that said that something like that might happen, but it would certainly be a nice twist. And, of course, the most vehement Suzaku haters would probably be leaping for joy (well, typing for joy anyway – likely telling us how much he deserved it and how wonderful it was).

  188. TITLE:- [GEASS] Suzaku has a fun day at the beach -:TITLE

    You cant talk to people under the influence of refrain. atleast thats what i got from it! it seemed Kallens mum was just re-enacting a part og her past that made kallen realise why she put up wit being her stpmothers maid all this time!!!. So suzaku is gonna feel really bad when Kallen on refrain says nothing of tactical value but instead just spout a whole load of stuff from either when she was at school but most likely when her brother was still alive making suzaku look and feel (finally) like an idiot!

    Also unless you are referring to the bit where suzaku ses about how he cant let methods hold him bck any longer! (which in my mind makes him a hypocrit rather than absolving him because) how is he no longer a hypocrit considering he joined britannia because he somehow prefered thier methods!!!
    Seriously the only way suzaku could NOT be a hypocrit is by not figting at all because LOGICALLY in an IDEAL (non exsistant) world we woudnt have to resort to violence to solve our disputes! And its only when we except all violence in that way as (irellevent of seeming neccessary) wrong that we realise that Suzaku is nothing but a dumber version of lelouch who picked the wrong side and is STILL a hypocrite!

    Regarding Geass: no matter what happens i still think this series will benefit if suzaku dies at the end because no matter what! of all the main characters HE has had the easiest time doing EXACTLY whatever he pleases! he hasnt had any real struggle for any of his successes! (due to an evil government supporting him) !! its the same reason i am a little jaded with the whole ending of starwars because although the emperor was evil and had a chip on he shoulder for unknown reasons about the jedi (my mate made this point originally) you have to respect the fact that ove the course of a few hundred years and 5 outa 6 movies he WORKED HARD (just like lelouch) just for some kid with a terrible haircut a handful of fighters and 3 capital ships to take him down!!! (luke skywalker is how suzaku should have been personality-wise in order for him to gain an ounce of my respect!) HOW DAREE THEY!! although u can say that the rebels ALSO worked hard unlike a certain Syaoran look alike we all (the clever ones) hate!!!

    WingZero zxt
  189. Quoting: “It is not a completely unheard of interrogation tactic, but it does strip away any right Suzaku has to the moral high ground.”

    WHAT moral high ground?
    Suzaku NEVER had the moral high ground. All his garbage about how using the wrong methods to reach a goal was nothing but hypocritical self-delusion blathered on to try and justify the fact that he murdered his own father. He’s no different from Lelouch, except that he deludes himself into thinking he’s somehow better because he’s “working within the system”.
    He’s a hypocritical piece of crap, plain and simple.

    As to this episode…well beside the stomach-churning massacre, it’s a pretty badass battle…oh, and JEREMIAH IS FUCKING SUPERMAN!!! Only more badass.

  190. @ X: “And the terrifying part is that Suzaku was TEN FRIGGIN’ YEARS OLD!!! A murderer at age 10, can you believe this? No wonder he’s such a piece of crap.”

    Have you taken a moment to consider what might have been the cause for this “murder”? Just as Lelouch killed Clovis to extract a tiny bit of information regarding his mother’s assassination, Suzaku killed his father for a reason–one that is unknown to us at the moment.

    Instead of putting these incoherent argument on the table, why don’t we wait until we have enough information to judge the characters?

  191. @ Reaver
    Suzaku killed his father to stop Japan from fighting a losing battle against Britania because his father wasn’t going to surrender. But I think I know what Genbu was thinking that Suzaku didn’t take the time to think about. If freedom isn’t worth fighting for then what is?

  192. Suzaku effectively claims that he has the moral high ground – at least he did in the beginning (he hasn’t exactly had the opportunity to argue with Lelouch about it recently). If you hold that rebelling against the government is wrong, then Suzaku has the moral high ground in that regard. He has chosen to take what would therefore be the only route which is moral – that is to change the system from within. He has basically held that position consistently since he first presented it. Rebellion is wrong. Changes must be made within the system. As long as you accept that position as true, then Suzaku at least started out with the moral high ground.

    The 3 problems with this, of course, are

    1. Britannia is so messed up that “changing from within” isn’t going to work. Even if you consider it immoral to rebel, if you really want to change things, it’s the only way. And, of course, there are plenty who would argue that there’s nothing wrong with rebelling against an oppressive, evil government – particularly when that government conquered you in the first place.

    2. While Suzaku has consistently claimed that end does not justify the means, he has increasingly acted contrary to this view – particularly with anything regarding Lelouch. With the refrain, he even pretty much outright said that he’d do anything necessary to find out whether Lelouch was Zero.

    3. While trying to change things from within, Suzaku has ended up doing a lot of nasty things – some under orders and some not. Such things tend to be counterproductive to his cause.

    I think that the main reason that people hate Suzaku is a combination of reason 2 and 3. Effectively, he claims the moral high ground and then goes sludging through the mud on the valley floor (so to speak). While you may not agree with him, I think that you can agree that at least some of what he’s done has been good if you’re operating from the premise that going against the government is flat out wrong and evil and must never be done. However, as pointed out in reason 2, he’s straying further and further from his original ideals. And with his effectively stating that he’d do anything to find out whether Lelouch is Zero – even using a highly addictive narcotic on someone who he once considered to be his friend – he basically outright conflicted with his stance which was supposedly on the moral high ground. Whether he realizes it or not, it’s a complete reversal of his previous stance which was the moral high ground and thus shoves him off of whatever moral high ground he might have been able to claim previously.

  193. It has been suggested that Suzaku killed his father while under the influence of a Geass. There is – to my knowledge – no real support for such a position other than the fact that it’s so bizarre that a 10 year old would kill his father, but it is certainly a possibility. Supposedly, he did it to stop his father from getting everyone in Japan killed resisting Britannia. From scenes relating to it, I got the impression that he just plain freaked out and killed his father because his father wouldn’t do what he wanted.

    Assuming that no Geass was involved, it appears to be a very disturbing thing for a 10 year old to do. It’s possible that we will find out more later that effectively absolves him, but as it stands, it certainly appears psychotic. Fortunately, as messed up as many of the people here think that he currenly is, he’s not that messed up right now.

  194. For what it’s worth, I think it should be mentioned that Lelouch is being just as big of a hypocrite as Suzaku is in this episode. Despite all of that babbling about atoning for Shirley’s death by getting rid of Geass, I couldn’t help but notice that he still plans on using the very power he is decrying. I’m sorry, but this “I’m the only one special enough to use it” excuse is a bunch of bullshit. If he was really serious about atoning for his sins, he would stop using Geass himself, but given the fact that Geass has played a key role in most of his accomplishments, I doubt that’s going to happen. When it’s all said and done, this massacre of “Atonement” is just Lelouch giving in to his own selfish desire for revenge, and that makes him no better than Suzaku.

  195. Agreed lelouch stating a massacre is for shirley was incredibly creepy and misguided! However Spectre_7 when have you ever thought that what lelouch was doing WASNT for revenge??? his blood lust has been the only constant in this program wheras suzaku CLAIMS to be of higher moral standard lol! Suzaku compared to lelouch is incredibly pretentious (if thats the right way to put it) and unfortunately for suzaku he just happens also to have picked the wrong side!! If your gonna be scum it generally helps if you pick right side (sorta like how Jack Bauer tortured and killed his way through every series of 24 and everyone liked him for it! I Mean omgoodness even if though some of the attacks succeded his kill count is still higher then all the terrorists ones put together LOL)

    WingZero zxt
  196. There are 3 reasons that I see that Lelouch massacred the Geass Cult.

    1. They were effectively his enemies (certainly their leader was) and he needed to either control them or get rid of them. He chose to get rid of them.

    2. He wanted to do his best to eliminate Geass from existence so that no one would ever be messed up by it again like Shirley was. He’s not about to commit suicide and he needs his Geass to finish his plans, so he‘s obvious still around, but he wants to make sure that no one else has the power to destroy lives in that manner. He’ll die eventually, and his power along with him, but if he can destroy the Cult (and get rid of the emperor), then the only ones left with any Geass-related powers are V.V. and C.C. – one of whom he wants to lock up forever and the other who is his ally. By getting rid of the Cult he thoroughly diminishes – if not eliminates – the possibility of anyone getting manipulated like Shirley again.

    3. Anger over Shirley’s death. I hesitate to call it revenge primarily because Rolo’s the one that he wants to kill for that. Really, what his anger does is feed into the decision to destroy the Cult rather than control it.

    In either case, regardless of why Lelouch did it and regardless of whether it was necessary, it was a morally reprehensible decision and he may pay for it later (particularly since the BK weren’t comfortable with it). Lelouch’s “atonement” is to make sure that what happened to Shirley can’t happen to anyone else. It doesn’t really cleanse him of whatever sins he has with regards to Shirley, but it is at least intended to prevent further such tragedies.

  197. I just think suzaku’s acts more on his emotions and feelings. In the mao thing he said when he killed him he did it in blind rage (assuming he wasnt geassed or anything like that, this would hold tru). When he confronted lelouch it was the same situation.

    Whats interesting is suzaku still doesnt know the reason why zero geassed euphie. He took zero to the emperor out of rage not wanting to hear his reasons. But it was hinted couple episodes back in season 2 that he still doesnt know the reason why zero geassed and killed her. I think if he was a little more collected and had a dialouge he couldve learned the real reasons behind her death.

    1. especially when lelouch was like ya i dont care we can talk about this after we save my sister*.
    2. i mean they were best friends he shouldve atleast gave him a chance to talk
    *on a side note what kinda ass neglects a blind paralysed girl who you’re close with for revenge.

    Granted lelouch couldve told him the first time they ran into each other at the school but he knew suzaku was still too angry.

  198. Lelouch’s actions in general tend to be driven by two things:

    1. Revenge for his mother and Nunnally.
    2. Make a better world (at first for Nunnally specifically and later for everyone else).

    Most of what Lelouch does falls into the category of “the ends justify the means.” He doesn’t always think that way, but he’s willing to do just about whatever it takes to achieve his goals. Along the way, he’s felt horrible for a number of the things that he’s done – generally for the unintended consequences of his choices – but he continues to press forward towards his goals with the idea that once he’s achieved them, the world will be a better place. If he were to turn back now, the losses and sacrifices of the innocent lost or killed along the way will have been in vain. So, he presses on.

    There is no question that a number of Lelouch’s actions are morally questionable at best, but he at least acknowledges that what he’s doing isn’t necessarily right. He deems it necessary, so he does it. He is, therefore, at least partially evil in his actions, but always towards a good goal. It’s a classic example of a character with good intentions who believes that the end justifies the means. He may be somewhat messed up, but he’s not hypocritical.

  199. This blog is really nice. It is fun to read all the comments and speculation on this show. Now I will provide you with my theories.

    -Marianne was killed by order of V.V.
    – The emperor is not bad, he just believes that all the lying and suffering of the world is because “the gods” who wish for it.
    -Xing Ke is the only model hero on this show.
    – Luu and Susaku are proportional inverse to each other. (One goes done , one goes up)For example: When lulu was more evil susaku was a righteousness person and know that lulu is learning about people and his emotions susaku is becoming a bastard.
    -Anya is a Marianne clone. Thats why you can explain her interest in lulu and his reaction at contact with C.C.

    mystery solver
  200. @Quikstryke
    Good observation about Suzaku. He’s almost always acting on his emotions. That’s probably at least part of why he’s generally far more conflicted than Lelouch. Lelouch, on the other hand, usually acts using reason. There are times when he acts from emotion – usually anger if that is the case – but it’s pretty rare overall. It is an interesting difference in their personalities and probably has a lot to do with why they both chose the paths that they did.

  201. One thing people have to remember while watching this show is that Lelouch is human and like humans he makes mistakes, learns, accepts and adapts. Though at times it’s hard for him to do this and he messes up, his character and goal in life is for the greater good so he cannot stop. For example take what happened to Euphemia. He had agreed to work with her to create a free area for Japan, however, the incident with the geass took place, and Lelouch reacted and improvised in the best way he could so that the end result of the struggle would still be freedom for the Japanese. Lelouch’s character is twisted, but so would anyone other character that was trying to stop a rutheless kingdom bent on controlling the world. I think he deserves a lot more credit than he’s given.

    You’re all attacking Lelouche’s character and blaming him for being immoral and using the organization as a means of tunneling his anger about letting Shirly die. In turn you’re making him sound like “the bad guy”. In the end Lelouch’s goal is the most just in the entire show, creating a country with freedom for all, while everyone else in the show has similar goals, their methods involve innocents losing their freedom, allowing the the tyrant king of Britannia to continue his rule. Example: Suzakus idiotic idea of doing everything through the Britanian Military. Suzaku is worse. How? Well for one he betrayed his country by killing the man who adopted him, his father, who was fighting for Japanese freedom. The emperor would never allow Japan to be free, even if Euphemia tried to save it.

    Lelouch is the main character for a reason, so before he is bashed and judged the situation should be looked at through his perspective.

  202. @Curious
    Yes, Euphemia was going to rescind her right to the throne – she wasn’t exactly next in line anyway – but to make some of the changes that she really wanted to make would have required becoming empress since they basically went against her father’s philosophies and policies. Cornelia might have even said that Euphemia would have to be empress to do what she really wanted, but I don’t remember for certain. In either case, it’s clear that truly freeing the Japanese people would require that she become empress.

    It was when she was going to create the Special Region of Japan that she told Lelouch that she was going to give up here titles and any right she had to the throne. Really, It’s quite surprising that she was able to create the Special Region of Japan in the first place. She was probably only allowed to do so because those above her thought that it would put all of the dissidents in one place and make it easier to kill them later.

  203. The SAZ was supported by Shneizel – that’s the only reason it was possible. As shown in ep 21 she spoke to him and he supported the idea, which leads me to believe that she could not do it on her own. And giving up her title and her right to the throne is the price she had to pay for it.

  204. @mystery solver

    thats the second time ive heard someone say that anya is marianne clone. can someone pls tell me why the clone of a blackhaired person would have pink hair???

  205. @org
    Apparently Anya looks a lot like Marianne when she was younger. Of course, that doesn’t necessarily imply cloning or anything of the sort. It’s far more likely that they’re related somehow. But we don’t know and apparently some people like the clone idea. As for the hair, you bring up a good point. Unless her genes were messed with or she dyes her hair, it really wouldn’t work for Anya to be Marianne’s clone. Personally, I think that the clone idea is a bit out there, but I suppose that it’s possible.

  206. @Kalessin
    For clarifications regarding Euphemaia ya cornelia told her she can only acheive her goals as empress. Also this was said when cornelia was kinda scolding her (in the nicest way possible) for acting on her own without consulting anyone about choosing suzaku as a knight. Cornelia also told her she was acting out of line when she made the special region and not to do anything like that again without consent. Im also suprised they allowed it but im guess its to save face since she already announced it publically.

    You can tell the emperor wasnt pleased with it in the cuts scenes to him. Then he starts laughing evilly when lelouch geasses her and the massacre starts. Note the emperor is not sad or upset at what happened to her, infact i think he was pleasantly happy even impressed with what lelouch did.

  207. i just saw ep 5 of season 1 again. seems like the emperor can also talk to the “dead”. In the beginning of the episode he apparently had a conversation with clovis. (it may be how he knew zero was lelouch in the first place). So C.C. isnt exactly the only one capable of it.

  208. do you think mia will be the next shirley in his(lelouch’s)life? after all she was the first girl to find and manage to hold lelouch’s hat in milly’s graduation event (although was geassed to return the hat)

    btw lelouch can not be accused as the prime suspect of shirley’s death. why? because there’s no evidence to pinpoint its him:

    1. remember before the smoke came out, jeremiah was shot by two police officer(guard), those police officer could be held accounted for because they gave shots(even though their were geassed) without warning hence could be held suspect.

    2. Jeremiah can be suspected too since he looked weird on on his clothes and suddenly came punching the security guards. And after he did that, smoke came out.

    3. Lelouch may be near but not necessarily him. After all why would he kill shirley that he just rescued while crying loud that he does not want to lose anyone anymore? if not for suzaku lelouch might have fallen as well.

    the first two a lot of people saw it. the people might suspected jeremiah for the terrorist in the area and tell suzaku about it.

    but it’s suzaku we’re talking about here on his quest for revenge every little thing lelouch might do is hate-able to him.

    i might add a possibility during the effect on the drug refrain:
    >in the first season when karen saw her mom during the influence of the refrain, she called her mom, and was possibly heard, therefore people during the effect of the said drugs, they can identify the people that was during their happiest moment and hear them.

  209. @Ungas
    As I understand it, Mia was a one-shot character which a pop idol played. She was only in episode 12 and won’t be coming back (at least not for a speaking part), so there’s pretty much no way that she’s going to be playing any kind of major part in the rest of the series. Also, from the summaries which we have through episode 17 along with the title for episode 18, it looks like there will be little to no school-related stuff going on any time soon. I suspect that while we’ll see the school and the students at least from time to time, it’s likely that it will primarily be seeing them reacting to the major events that Zero and the OotBK will be instigating rather than seeing Lelouch at school.

    As for Lelouch being the prime suspect for Shirley’s murder, officially it’s a suicide. Only Suzaku suspects Lelouch. However, given that Shirley would never commit suicide and given that Lelouch would have the power to make her commit suicide if he has his memories back, Suzaku believes that Lelouch did it. If you’re trying to find a way for her death to be murder and not suicide, in terms of ability to do it, Lelouch is at the top of the list. Additionally, Suzaku is so focused on Zero and Lelouch that even if he’s totally aware of Rolo’s capabilities, he’s likely to forget him and not consider him as a candidate for her murder. So, in Suzaku’s eyes, Lelouch is the prime suspect and probably the only suspect. He just needs to prove it. And at this point, about all the proof he seems to think that he needs is to know whether Lelouch has his memories back. In either case, there’s no way that Lelouch could ever be convicted for her murder in a court of law unless it’s rigged.

    If Suzaku actually talks to Lelouch however (openly, with Suzaku knowing that Lelouch is Zero), I think that it would be fairly easy for Lelouch to convince Suzaku that he didn’t do it. It’s the Euphemia bit that Suzaku is really going to have a hard time getting over. From the point of view of Suzaku’s character development, the Shirley mess is really just a catalyst for Suzaku to try once again to determine whether Lelouch is Zero.

  210. @ACE
    What about what the emperor did was a change of attitude? He seems to be acting the same as always to me. We’re starting to get to the explanations as to why he acts the way he does, but he hasn’t really changed how he acts as far as I can see.

  211. So.. anyone else wonder if C.C. was talking with Marianne again in this episode. It’s just interesting how several people seem to be talking to the dead. Like C.C. to Marianne and the Emperor to Clovis. Where are they?I have a theory that Marianne will be seen in the World of C, but I’m starting to doubt that. I just think it will be C.C. who comes to Lelouch’s rescue. I just thought Marianne would be really cool and dramatic.

    I’m wondering if we will get to see Kallen in the next episode or will this new one just be Lelouch in this other world, with no real sign of what’s happening in the outside world.
    If we remember what happened last time Lelouch fell into a similar trap with C.C. once they came out of it they were right back where they originally were. This appears to be more about events happening in their mind.

  212. Well good job , Suzaku! Even if everyone blames you and go cherish Lulu , I will always be on your side. Man , you should use this kind of method for a long time , I also hope you would be the one to kill Kallen off in the end.

    And to hell with Lulu, I still don’t get why people oh so adore him for what he has done, he is just cold blooded , other than the few ones he love, others are just disposable pigs for him, he is far worse than Suzaku :P.

  213. @Remmell
    From reading the summaries for episode 15, I initially thought that Lelouch would be running into Marianne in the World of C. However, after having seen the preview with C.C. standing there with him among C.C.’s memories, I wonder if it’s C.C. and not Marianne. I guess that we’ll have to wait until to actually see it.

    If they don’t show Kallen in the episode, that’ll be pretty mean from a cliffhanger standpoint, but it wouldn’t surprise me entirely if they showed only Lelouch. However, since they don’t normally focus entirely on a single character in an episode, I’m guessing that we’ll see at least a little of Kallen. Again, I guess that we’ll just have to wait and see. There’s really no way to figure it out at this point.

    Also, I wonder if they’re really just in their heads. I think that Lelouch actually went to the Sword of Akasha. It looked like it was probably the Sword of Akasha behind the emperor when he opened the door/gate for V.V. which would imply that it is a physical location and not just in the mind. Also, in season 1, when Lelouch and C.C. were attacked by V.V.’s trap, they primarily saw C.C.’s memories. They didn’t really appear to physically go someplace like Lelouch has this time. It’s certainly possible that it’s all in Lelouch’s head, but it appears more like he was transported this time – which may make it harder for C.C. to get to him.

  214. and another thing, Suzaku is blaming Lelouch for all the problems in the world…..
    …if you want Suzaku to be the “hero”, fine! Let this be the situation:

    (meeting between Lelouch & Suzaku)
    Suzaku: Lelouch….
    Lelouch: Suzaku…it’s been a while….are you expecting me?
    Suzaku: Yes, i’m expecting you….expecting you to answer my questions… you really know Nunnally?
    Lelouch: ………………Yes, she’s my sister…………….and you’re the only one who can protect her……………..
    Suzaku: Yes, I will……..(takes out his gun and shoots Lelouch)
    (Lelouch drops dead)
    Suzaku: I will protect her….from you….

    (Next day)
    (Setting: Sword of Akasha)
    Suzaku: Where is Your Majesty?
    V.V.: Oh, you mean Charles? Well, he’s doing some stuff….Anyway, thank you, Suzaku
    Suzaku: For what?
    V.V.: For killing your best friend. Anyway, it’s for the safety of Nunnally and revenge for Euphy, right?
    Suzaku: Right
    V.V.: Good, now let’s continue the plans now…..ready, Charles?
    Charles (who just arrived): Ready, nii-san….(To Suzaku)….Kururugi Suzaku, I know you want to change the world from within, right?
    Suzaku: Yes, your Majesty…
    Charles: Then, just push the button over there (pointing at the big red button before him)
    Suzaku: Uh…what will it do?
    Charles: Just push the button…anyway, it’s one push and it’s harmless…
    Suzaku: Right…anyway, I’m doing this for Euphy and Nunnally
    (Suzaku pushes button and waits to see what happened)
    V.V.: Hmmm….I think it’s starting…
    Charles, Yes, you’re right
    Suzaku (looking at them, confused): Uh, what’s going on?
    Charles: Kururugi, are you ready?
    Suzaku: Ready for what?
    Charles: Just answer the damn question! Are you ready?
    Suzaku: Yes, your Majesty!
    Charles: Good
    (Charles opens the door and beyond the door, shows the surroundings covered with snow and darkness)
    Suzaku: *o*
    V.V.: Thank you Kururugi for everything
    Suzaku: Wait, are you saying that–that–that—-
    Charles: That’s right, you push the button which cause the Sword of Akasha to kill the gods and start Ragnarok….
    V.V.: Now that the gods are dead, the world is covered in snow and all life will suffer eternal coldness !!!!! (smiles like Joker)
    Suzaku: Th–then, Nu-nunnally and the others are—-????
    V.V.: That’s right (then pushes Suzaku off the door)
    Charles: Anyway, thanks for everything most especially killing Lelouch…and btw, don’t forget to put your jacket on!!! BWAHAHAHA
    Suzaku: Wait—!!!
    V.V.: Bye-bye, Kururugi Suzaku!!!! (then closes door)
    (Suzaku looks around his surroundings, covered in snow and darkness. Then, he screams)

    Note: created by an ideal mind 🙂

  215. I would think that if they wanted to kill off Ougi they would of done so with the first season. Seems sadistic to just keep stringing him along like that.
    What confuses me more in Villetta. I would of thought she would be more open to follow Jeremiah’s lead. What can Ougi get her that Jeremiah can’t? I’m guessing that Villetta doesn’t have to report to anyone regularly, since she’s just leaving the country to make her way to see Ougi. That would give away she’s betrayed Britannia. Seeing how she’s suppose to be lelouch’s baby sitter, for lack of a better term. How would this action free herself from the Black Knights control, if that’s what she’s really looking to get? She can’t surprise him that Zero is Britannian. He already knows that.

    Suzaku isn’t teh most efficient person at gathering information. If he’s so suspicious to know if Lelouch is Zero, why not drop the the school and talk with Rolo and Villetta like he’s done before. If Rolo and Lelouch are both missing, then he would of known Lelouch is Zero. That would of been more to the point and he wouldn’t of needed to drug Kallen. His actions are that more like a sadist.

    Should be interesting to see what Cornelia will do now. We still aren’t sure if she remembers who Zero really is. She’s sure to be VERY curious what reason Jeremiah would have. Part of me would like to see her join him in avenging Marianne, but I tend to doubt that. Especially since as Zero he personally killed Euphy. Though we have seen more surprising reactions, like Jeremiah. There’s a chance she might even forgive him if he sucks it up and tells her all the details of how it was an accident.
    Not holding my breath on that one though. I’d just hate for Cornelia to disappear now that she’s back.

  216. I’ve heard an idea going around that somehow this whole Suzaku trying to drug Kallen could get turned around on him. They are talking about Kallen and Suzaku struggling and Suzaku accidentally getting injected. She then takes this chance to escape.

    I don’t see that being very likely. Suzaku has bested Kallen in a hand to hand fight before. Though, in her defense she was nude and trying to cover herself with one hand at the time. In this current situation we just need to look at the both of them. Kallen is in a filly dress with exposed skin all over the place. The only exposed flesh of Suzaku is his neck and face. Even in a struggle it seems more likely Kallen will be the one injected.
    Also the tool used to inject the drug doesn’t seem to have a needle. It’s appears more like a hypospray, Star Trek reference. I would think that would be better since that shouldn’t leave such obvious injection marks. It would be easier for a user to hide their addiction.

  217. This is very interesting, but I did get someone to ask me for a defense of Suzaku, so here goes.

    First off, he is not a contradicting himself. He say that to gain peace, you must use peaceful methods and I am pretty sure being duped up with Refrain is a lot better than having your ass beat during interrogation. If it getting off his normal track, that’s yes and a no, because he still wants proof before going after Lelouche. He can feel it that Lelouche is Zero, but unless he has his evidences he won’t touch him. IF he really was such a contradiction …after the Shirley incident he would find Lelouche and simply kick his ass. He would beat him until he felt better, and then put the collar on him so he can’t talk and work him over until he confess.

    He doesn’t do that.

    Though the use of drugs can’t exactly be considered to be peaceful, it’s not a violent method either. In other words, it’s pretty humane considering what he could do to her. Let’s not forget people, Kallan tried to kill Suzaku in season 1, so as far as I am concern she isn’t one to be given mercy at this point.

    Let’s see, other than the haven’t been confirmed Refrain inccident what other times have he contradicted himself?

    WHen he took in Lelouche to his father? Well, you know turning over the prisoner is exactly what he had plan to do from the time his war with Zero started, so he didn’t contradict himself there either. In fact, he didn’t kill zero even when he wanted to. The entire Nunnelly incident, I kind of wonder if he didn’t already know she was alright. I mean V.V did talk to him before hand, and I kind of think he was the one to kidnap her.

    So, tell me really what he that vary so far from his belief so far?

  218. The only thing that I would love to see is a Milly and Lelouch moment where she finally confronts her feelings to him. That would be a satisfying conclusion to me. The writers have mentioned that she was secretly in love with him. If that is the case, then they should get them together as soon as possible because the suspense is killing me. They have provided a lot of clues that something will happen between them in the future. I have always felt that the only way for Milly and Lelouch to get together is for Shirley to die. I am glad that she is gone. I certainly hope that Milly and Lelouch will finally meet once again.

  219. The problem with Suzaku isn’t really the nasty stuff he does. The problem is that he keeps saying – some would say preaching – that nothing can be gained by nasty means. While he may think that Zero has a good goal, he condemns him for how he goes about it, using violence and the like. And then Suzaku goes does similar things in Britannia’s name. So, one the one hand he’s saying that doing something is wrong, and then on the other hand, he’s doing it.

    As for the refrain incident in particular, he has previously claimed on a number of occasions that the end does not justify the means. However, in episode 14 when he’s about to use refrain on Kallen, he pretty much outright says that he’ll do anything to find out if Lelouch is Zero. That’s a flat out reversal of stance – whether he realizes it or not.

    As for Kallen treating Suzaku the way he’s treating her, I rather doubt that Kallen would use refrain on Suzaku given the situation with her mother, but she wouldn’t necessarily be nice to him either. He is the enemy after all. The same would likely go for Lelouch. However, neither of them claims that something is wrong and then goes and does it. Suzaku is hypocritical in his actions and that’s the big problem with him.

    Of course, on top of that, he’s being nasty to the main “good guys” in the show, so the fans tend to dislike him as a result. After all, who likes the guy who keeps hurting the people that they’re rooting for? Hence, we get quite a few Suzaku haters – many of whom are quite vocal about it.

  220. As for Ougi and Viletta, from what I’ve read (primarily at where some interviews – including one with Ougi’s VA – were recently added), it sounds like their romance is supposed to be a classic, tragic romance on some level. It’s not clear whether or not they’ll end up together and happy in the end, but things aren’t necessarily likely to go well in the mean time. I think that Ougi is likely to get in trouble with Diethardt over Viletta when Zero is away – though the fact that Sayoko knows Viletta and knows that Zero knows her may save them both.

    I’m guessing that Viletta decided decided that she wanted to see Ougi. She may or may not be running away from Britannia. I would think that she would be able to return to the school without getting in trouble with Britannia – particularly if no one is really keeping tabs on her. She went to the rally in episode 8 to try and see Ougi and she clearly still has feelings for him, so I think that the main reason that she’s leaving is simply to go see him.

    Now, it may be that she wants to get Ougi to convince Zero to let her free or something. I don’t know. She obviously doesn’t like her current position. She’s turn between her feelings for Ougi and her desire for a good position in Britannia, and Zero stuck himself right between the two, forcing her to do what he wanted. I suppose that ideally – from her point of view – she would somehow end up with Ougi and have a good position in Britannia, but given who and what Ougi is, that doesn’t seem possible. At some point, she’s going to have to choose. Personally, I’m hoping that she chooses to side with Ougi. The fact that Jeremiah currently sides with Lelouch may help her make that choice in Zero’s favor.

    I would think that the Viletta/Ougi situation is a prime candidate for a plot thread that will progress in episode 15 with Lelouch gone since that situation is more likely to actually be a problem if Zero isn’t there. If Zero were there, he could easily defuse it. So, if anything is to come of it other than just putting Viletta and Ougi together (which I don’t see happening just yet, and given the VA interview I mentioned above, I think it fairly certain that it won’t happen without something going wrong first), then it’s probably going to have to happen before Lelouch gets back. And given what’s supposed to be happening in episode 16, I’d expect him back by then.

  221. That is just it, what nasty stuff do Suzaku do, exactly?

    He goes out of his way to not hurt the innocent, and that is something that is constantly taken advantage of during the series. He actually makes good head way in the military and is actually pretty close to his goal. So, really, is his dream that much of a fairytale?

    Now, the issue with Kellen & Refrain hadn’t even been done yet, so let’s wait to judge. Though to be quite honest, I would lose it too if my best friend killed not only my girlfriend but one of my only friends as well[[his POV]]. Suzaku does make that statement which goes against his belief, but geesh how much lost can you take before you say screw this …give me my gun. The characters in this show are suppose to be depicted as human, so there is a breaking point for everything …including your morals. Lelouche had his, and he tried to inject himself with Refrain. Remember, he did this with his sister being still alive, but no longer waiting on him to make a world for her. She was now in charge of her own destiny which nearlly drove Lelouch mad and Kellen snapped him out of it.

    Now, Suzaku is having his, because to be quite clear …he has lost two people to Lelouche’s one. Seeing that Lelouche killed Eurphie himself, I find it hard to count her in Lelouche’s numbers. THen let’s not forget for that one, Lelouche’s vents his grief by massacing people, while, Suzaku just gets a whole lot more determined to put down Zero especially if he is Lelouche again.

    Finally, if the roles were reverse …I believe that Kellen would definetily do it, especially if Zero asked her. I mean, Zero didn’t tell her to try and kill Suzaku, but, the pressure with the rest of the Black Knights almost meant his death then. I am sorry, but I will say this quite clearly, I feel no pity for her.

    The Suzaku hate, I guess comes for fan worship of Lelouche as it should be, but logically …what is being said makes little sense. I can understand, Lelouche rules and Suzaku drools, but the whole he is a hypocrit thing is getting on my nerves. It’s cool to like your character and to hate others, but it’s not so good when you put false logic behind it.

    My thoughts & my opinion on the whole matter.

  222. @Silentveil
    You know. I think that you have a surprisingly good point. I’ve been trying to think of a time that Suzaku was outright nasty and they tend to be few and far between. On top of that, when he is nasty, he’s doing his job. So, from the point of view of him following his honor – and thus following orders – he’s generally done a good job. There are times when he’s been somewhat nastier that he might need to be – like when he turned in Lelouch – but when he’s ordered to kill soldiers that have declared surrender and things of that variety, he most certainly balks.

    I see two main problems with Suzaku’s behavior in general:

    1. He’s supporting Britannia and while he may not be doing much outright nasty stuff in their name – and sometimes even helps prevent it (like in episode 8 of R2), his actions have helped Britannia become stronger. He’s helped crush the EU and if it weren’t for him, Zero would have likely won ages ago. There would have been fewer deaths and Britannia would have had the chance to screw over fewer people.

    2. Suzaku manages to give the impression of being nasty. On reflection, I think that this is because he’s always trying to stop the OotBK and Zero. He, therefore, causes them quite a lot of trouble and isn’t exactly kind to them. They are his enemies after all. But from the point of view of a fan, seeing Suzaku constantly stop Zero from helping the Japanese be free and doing nasty things to Zero like turn him in to his father to have him memories messed with. For all we know, he expected that Zero would be executed. It would have been a logical assumption. So, because Suzaku is nasty to the “good guys,” he appears to be nasty.

    All in all, I think that it primarily comes down to his actions helping Britannia do evil stuff and preventing Zero and the OotBK stop Britannia, and down to the fact that because he’s doing things against the “good guys,” he appears nasty and evil.

    I i>do think that Suzaku has been making a huge mistake and that his actions have made things far worse rather than better, but overall, he’s avoided killing civilians and the like. Zero’s actions have been far more effective, but innocents have died as a direct result. So, Suzaku is perhaps more honorable, but his results are negative while Zero’s actions are not always honorable, but have been much more positive in terms of achieving the overall goal of otherthrowing Britannia and freeing Japan.

    Still, regardless of how well Suzaku has kept to his stance thus far, saying that he’ll use any means to determine if Lelouch is Zero is definitely going against it. He may or may not choose to use refrain, but it sure looks like he’s going to. And while treating a prisoner nicely may not be a pre-requisite, considering how nasty refrain’s effects are and the fact that it’s illegal, I think that it qualifies as be one of the “despicable” means that Suzaku keeps talking about.

    Suzaku probably gets a lot more flak then he deserves, but however honorable he has been in general, it has only supported the cause of those who invaded his homeland and did so much damage to the lives of the people there who he’s supposedly trying to help.

  223. I want to cry. Why, why did shirley have to die. This anime is twisted and evil. Kinda like Gundam series. First season when euphemia died (the princess) i gave up on code geass. I then started watching season 2 and I was just getting into it and then this.

  224. @Kalessin
    “Suzaku probably gets a lot more flak then he deserves, but however honorable he has been in general, it has only supported the cause of those who invaded his homeland and did so much damage to the lives of the people there who he’s supposedly trying to help.”

    Spot on, dude.

    I hate Suzaku not for his nastiness, but for the supposedly moral high ground he adopts which therefore makes him hypocritical. Lelouch may be a bastard for massacring a whole lot of Geass-users, but he never said that he would not be a bastard from the start. A character can be liked for being delightfully evil, but he cannot be liked for inconsistency and hypocrisy.

    You speak of hatred for Suzaku stemming from worship of Lelouch, which may be true for some fans, but I can equally conceive it being the case that it being possible to dislike the former without liking the latter. Personally, I simply dislike Suzaku not solely because he sold off his best friend, but because of his hypocrisy. Where is the hypocrisy you may ask?

    Firstly, Suzaku thinks that violence is not the way to change a society, and therefore he seeks to change things from within, and therefore he seeks to work for Britannia instead of against. Then he FIGHTS for Britannia in his Lancelot, killing people along the way. In the context of Code Geass, (and definitely not in the real world), I do not think killing people is wrong. But saying you are working against it, and then doing it does not seem too right to me.

    Secondly, he has always advocated that he believes ends achieved through the wrong means is not righteous. Now we just have to look at what he is doing, or rather threatening to do to Kallen. Specifically, look at what he said to justify his acts. Now, again, I do not believe that drugging a POW is wrong (in the world of Code Geass, that is). But to first say what he did, and then to now do what he is saying he would do, is contradictory and therefore hypocritical.

    I do not think I need to raise more examples to illustrate his hypocrisy. I do not dislike Suzaku for his acts directly, but for his acts placed in the background of he having previously used a moral high ground to justify his intentions. To put it simply, if he sold Lelouch off simply as that, without all that moral high ground crap, I would not dislike him, for he was being consistently evil. But to give all that moral justification and then to evolve into the person he is at the moment and do what he did, is something I cannot stand. If that is not being hypocritical, then I do not know what is. And a hypocritical person cannot be honourable. Pseudo-honourable, maybe.

  225. @J
    Twisted and evil? It is true that the main characters aren’t saints, but they at least try to be good guys. If you want evil, go watch Death Note.

    Primarily what you have here is a situation where things don’t always go right and there are tragic side effects to actions with good intentions. It’s certainly sad that Euphemia and Shirley died, but there’s nothing evil about it. It’s most certainly true that if you’re looking for a series where all the good guys survive and even if some things go poorly, you don’t have huge, nasty consequences for the main character’s actions, then Code Geass is most definitely not for you. From what I’ve seen, any show that is aimed at a somewhat older audience – as opposed to the early teens or young kids or whatnot – tends to have things go somewhat poorer for the main characters. Nasty, sad things happen. I think that it’s primarily due to the writer’s looking to make the story more realistic and more dramatic.

    I certainly hope that Code Geass ends up with a happy ending, but I don’t think that I’d call it twisted and evil. It just so happens to be trying to make it so that there are nasty, unintended consequences to the actions of the main characters – Lelouch in particular. The characters have to live and deal with the unintended consequences of their choices. It’s more interesting that way really. It may not be as fun, but it’s more interesting – from a character stand point at least.

  226. Kallesin@

    Thank god, a reasonable person.

    1. It’s true he isn’t making the Britianna forces weaker, but that wasn’t his intention anyway. Because, the more power Britianna has, the more power he has, so instead he is become more and more recognized as an important person in Britianna. This gives him more power to effect decisions and those decision effect Japan as well as other countries. If other follow in his wake, and Suzaku helps them up the ladder …the infiltration can happen so quickly that the people wouldn’t even be aware of the change in government, and the new policies would become common place. Peaceful way of changing the world …a little at a time, and it’s a whole lot more permenent too.

    2.I can understand that point of view, the whole show is based on that. As I said before, I don’t mind the Lelouche fangroup hating Suzaku, but, don’t give me some mess up logic for it.


    Okay L, first off, his moral high ground’s defect is in your head. He doesn’t believe in changing society through violent means. Keyword is society, the Black Knights isn’t any kind of a society that I know of, but a faction of rebels/terrorist. Second, I don’t see a vow to not kill in that statement, but maybe, if you squint really hard the word society can be change to sociopaths. Thus, in your warp sense of understand he said …he doesn’t believe in changing Sociopaths though violent means, inwhich, case he was definitly wrong for what he did to Lelouche.

    Okay, Suzaku has always advocated that he believes ends achieved through the wrong means is not righteous. You got me on this one, though in his defense, after the death of his girlfriend and one of his only friends to Lelouche, he might have reached his breaking point with that one. Kind of like Lelouche’s desire to fight was kind of shattered by his sister no longer being helplessly depend on him, and he wanted to use refrain, well this is Suzaku’s break down. He has lost two people close to him, three if you count Lelouche, by trying to stick to his principles. He is at the screw it point, but instead of using refrain on himself …he wants to use it on Kallen.

    ^^ Suzaku is so evil!^^

  227. Before when I was talking about Suzaku being injected with refrain and Kallen using that chance to escape, I wasn’t talking about Kallen using it on purpose. I was talking about Kallen struggling with Suzaku and Suzaku accidentally being injected. I don’t think Kallen would ever knowingly use something like that on another person. She seems to have a total personal hatred for that drug. The mere fact Lelouch had it infuriated her.
    I actually wrote in another forums comparing the characters to the pieces on a chess board. Yes, I enjoy playing chess a lot. My thoughts about Kallen had to do with the rules concerning the pawns. For those that don’t know if a pawn can reach the other end of the board it you can promote the piece into any piece, but the King. Most pick the Queen. I questioned how Kallen started out low in how Lelouch saw her. Before she was just a tool to his plan, but as the story has moved on her, personally, has seemed to mean more to him. Now that Kallen has been deep into enemy hands, could she return as the Queen. He already refers to her openly as “Q-1”.

    Suzaku’s whole character has been a huge ball of hypocrisy. He joins the ‘army’ to prevent death. I’ve always said. If you aren’t willing at some point to fight and kill, then don’t join the army. It’s always disgusted me when I hear people who joined the army complain that they never thought they would have to fight and kill in a war. When you join the army you are being trained to kill. That at any time you could be called to duty. It’s what you signed up for. “Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum”, If you want peace prepare for war. It’s a saying used by the Marines.
    It’s also ironic when you find out that Suzaku’s public reasoning for joining the Britannian army wasn’t what it seemed. Suzaku deep in his heart wants to die. He wants to be punished for what he had one. Point in fact, he would of died many times over if it hadn’t been for Lelouch’s “Survive” Geass. It always seems to kick in when his heart is ready to give up, but the Geass pushes his body to survive.

  228. Personally, I don’t think that Suzaku’s methods have any chance of succeeding or in resulting in lasting changes. Britannia has the wrong type of government for it. They have a monarchy – a dictatorship really. Such a system can be highly effective if the King/Emperor is a good man. He can thus use his power to do a lot of good. But if the Emperor is an evil man, he can do a lot of damage and there’s not a lot that anyone can do about it as long as he’s in power.

    Sure, Suzaku can influence some of his peers to be nicer to those they interact with, to make choices that result in less carnage, etc. But he can never make any big changes because the Emperor would never allow it. No matter how many people he gets to agree with him and work with him to make Britannia a better place and a kinder government, unless they get rid of the Emperor, they can’t make lasting changes. He has absolute power within the government. There are no checks or balances of any kind. Unless he’s overthrown, any and all changes made in the government would be small and would last only as long as the Emperor tolerated them. If they went against his rather nasty philosophies, then they aren’t going to stick around.

    Suzaku’s philosophy of “changing things from the inside” might work wonderfully in a democracy, but in a dictatorship, there’s no chance. It might be better than doing nothing at all, but he can’t change things permanently as long as he works within the system. The system itself needs to abolished if lasting changes are going to be made. Think about it. Even if they were to overthrow the Emperor, all it would take would be for the next Emperor or some other Emperor that follows after him to think like the current one does – if not worse – and then things are just as bad as they used to be.

    Suzaku may very well have his honor, but he’s not going to succeed the way he’s been going. Lelouch may not have his honor – from Suzaku’s perspective anyway – but he’s much more likely to make a lasting difference.

  229. @Remmell
    I, for one, didn’t think that you meant that Kallen would use refrain on Suzaku on purpose. Regardless of whether she’d treat Suzaku kindly if their roles were reversed, due to the situation with her mother, she hates refrain and I don’t think that she’d ever use it on anyone for any reason. It’s quite possible that she will struggle against Suzaku and he ends up getting injected with it, but if so, it’ll be an accident. In fact, I would expect her to struggle quite a bit, so Suzaku is – at minimum – going to have quite a bit of trouble injecting her. That doesn’t necessarily mean that he’ll inject himself in the struggle, but Kallen won’t take refrain if she can help it.

  230. That would be a scenario to witness. Kallen resisting Suzaku and Suzaku ends up getting injected with the refrain. This leaves Kallen open to escape – possibly. There is still Nunally who… might let her go. I’m looking at the opening with the red paper crane being set free among the black birds.

    Kallen might also be injected like we’re being led to see. Doing so would open up memories about her past, and present that challenge to Kallen that was referred to in the spoilers.

    On the other hand, Suzaku being injected would cause that punk(i use that term nicely) to reflect back once more on his past and probably nunallys words, euphies words, shirley’s words, and lelouch’s words and he’d be subject to another mind screw.

    Its hard to say what will happen.

  231. Obviously it’s not going to happen, but imagine how Suzaku would feel if he accidently injected Nunnally with the refrain. Kallen would likely feel pretty bad too – assuming that it happened due to her struggling (if not, she’d still feel bad for her and probably mad at Suzaku, but she probably wouldn’t feel guilty). That would sure make Suzaku rethink things.

    Of course, like I said, it wouldn’t happen – if nothing else, Nunnally left the room. And I, for one, would rather have Kallen injected than poor, little Nunnally (much as I don’t want Kallen to be injected). But still, it would have an interesting effect on Suzaku. For that matter, just having Nunnally know that Suzaku injected Kallen with refrain might have interesting effects. If Suzaku knew that she knew, then he might feel really bad about it (especially if he didn’t get any useful info from Kallen). And regardless of whether Suzaku knew that she knew, the fact that Nunnally knew that Suzaku had don such a thing to Nunnally might turn her against him on some level – or at last lead her to seek a way to free Kallen rather than simply making her comfortable and chatting with her.

    Also, I wonder what happens if the times that you’re currently living in are your happiest. Does refrain affect you in quite the same way? Given that it’s a drug, I’d expect that something would still happen in such a case, but it would probably be a bit weird. After all, the affected character would probably be talking about current events almost like they normally would, only in a bit of a daze. I doubt that we’ll ever see it though, as interesting as it might be.

    In any case, we’ll likely find out what happens between Suzaku and Kallen soon enough.

  232. What I was trying to talk about was how unlikely it would be for Suzaku to be accidentally being injected. Kallen has all that exposed skin, but the only bit on Suzaku is his neck and face. The refrain tool doesn’t seem to use a needle, but more compressed air to get the drug into the system. Just seems highly unlikely he could be accidentally injected.
    I don’t see Nunnally even having the authority to just release Kallen. She was taken in by Schneizel and Suzaku most likely as a prisoner of war, though she’s not being treated as such. It’s one thing to move a prisoner. It’s a whole other matter to release her. She really pushed her authority just by enacting her plan for Japan.
    The only thing I see possible is if Nunnally, with enough authority, sends Kallen back to Zero with a message from her. A, ‘Please, can’t we all just get along.’ kind of deal, or a message to her ‘brother’. The latter is providing that she figured out who Zero really is.
    I have questioned that though. I know it’s implied she has an idea after the events when she was arriving in Japan and was rescued by Suzaku, from Lelouch’s heartfelt cry, “Nunnally!!!”. She seemed to have a reaction that that, but before she had a chance to talk with him more casually. I was always worried the moment he spoke she would figure it out. Though I do know, as Zero, he alters his manner of speech. I would of still thought that she would of figured it out the moment he spoke.

  233. I would LOVE for Nunnally to find out what Suzaku either tries or does to Kallen. Nunnally has always been a rather static character She’s either happy or sad. We’ve never seen her upset or angry. I’d like to see her get just a little angry about something. If anything you’d think something of that caliber would be enough.
    I doubt she’ll find out though. Suzaku keeps Nunnally pretty well sheltered. She said herself that Suzaku is the only one she gets to talk to. I feel sorry for her about that. She must be very lonely like that.

  234. @Remmell
    I have been somewhat surprised that Lelouch hasn’t been recognized by his voice more – particularly by Nunnally – since it’s not like he uses a voice modulator or somesuch. His voice is different, but not by all that much.

    As for Nunnally releasing Kallen, I don’t believe for a second that she has the authority to simply release her. However, she might be able to find a way to get someone else to help her escape if she thought that Kallen’s situation was bad enough. I have no clue who she’d get to do that since the only 3 people that I recall here even talking to are Suzaku, Anya, and Ms. Rommeier (or whatever her “assisstant”‘s name is), and none of them are likely to help her sneak Kallen out. But I can certainly see Nunnally wanting to find a way to release Kallen.

    As for Suzaku getting accidently injected with the refrain, it is probably a bit unlikely. Kallen’s dress seems to show quite a bit of skin in various areas, so there are plenty of places for her to be injected. However, depending on how the injection mechanism works, it might be able to inject through clothes if they’re not really thick (though as I recall, Suzaku’s Knights uniform is pretty thick). So, I think that you have a very valid point about it being rather difficult – and thus probably unlikely – for Suzaku to get injected by accident.

    The only thing that I can say for sure is that Kallen is not going to allow herself to be injected if she can help it. I find it rather likely that one of the two will be injected unless Suzaku is using it primarily as a threat and Kallen is able to give him some info (other than the fact that Lelouch is Zero) which will placate him enough to not inject her (which I find rather doubtful). There woludn’t be much point in bringing the refrain into the story at this point otherwise.

  235. Where could she even get such a chance or persons to help her. Nunnally is pretty much sheltered. Her ‘assistant’ feels to me to be more like an overseer. Someone to keep Nunnally and her gentle ideals in line. I Don’t see what that woan would help in anything unseemly or illegal. She even quotes the laws to the finest details. Also she was the one willing to fire into the crowd of Zeros.
    Let’s also remember that it seems when she gets out she’s taking the Guren with her. I just don’t see them rebuilding the Guren from the ground up, but just upgrading it. That’s a lot to set Kallen free and getting her to the Guren in order to steal it.

    I could see Kallen standing determined of openly offering Suzaku her arm. Sort of a bluff and showing her absolute dedication. A move to say, “Do what you want. You wont get what you are looking for.”. It’s a bluff I almost see Suzaku not buying unless he was just using the refrain as a scare tactic to get her to talk. That also seems unlikely. He seems determined to use that. Otherwise why risk obtaining an illegal drug?

  236. i think nunnaly heard lelouch voice when the airship blown zero out while lamenting her name loudly – episode 6 last few seconds before the ending theme was shown.

    nunnaly heard lelouch voice and took a deep breath. remember nunnaly is blind due to trauma for a lot years therefore her other senses are better than a normal person. I believe she managed to recognize her older brother’s voice(she took a deep breath to her surprise).

  237. Getting back the discussion about Suzaku… what I dont like of him its not his hipocresy, Its more like his naivety or should I see idiocy?? (why?? why clamp made him look like Syaoran, it just makes hate him more difficult) like Kalessin said, you can´t change a dictatorship from within and sweet talking, its naive, and then its an idiotic idea trying to get the truth about Zero using refrain… really which part of makes you remember the good old days he cant understand… He´ll have to listen Kallen talking with someone who he wont know unless she says his name… cleaver Suzaku really cleaver…
    Anyway it´s 3.39 in the morning or 5.39pm Japan time, so I guess some bloggers already know what happened in the world of C and between Suzaku and Kallen, we´ll know in 5 hours more or less… I guess with this comment the discussion of this chap will end??
    Ja ne!!

  238. Bringing the refrain upfront allows for a kind of reflection or de ja vu all the way back to Kallen’s mother and her ordeal with refrain. Kallen is one of the main characters that are very indirectly involved with refrain. So there would be little room for doubt that Kallen wouldn’t be infected. Still anything can happen. We’ll find out hopefully in a few hours,

  239. The way Suzaku ‘cares’ for his friends and wants to ch- aaan – ge things from within is just delusional. Suzaku is one of those friends you don’t want to have. They care for you sooooo much <3 and then they hold you so tight they’ll “save” you by killing you and deciding all of your disicions and future for you. He’ll sell you out, lie, threaten, harass, stalk, blackmail, kill, his friends all so he can “save them” and its all “for their own good”. UGH. Honestly, those kinds of friends are often times more like family than friends. And theres a reason friends are separated from family. Wait, Suzaku-friends are probably like enemies more than anything. I wanted to like Suzaku in the first season. Really I couldn’t get over how stupid he was. I thought maybe Lelouch would help him overcome his past and he would turn. Instead, we get Suzaku the zealous !@#$% !@#$#%^ loyal to Britania all for… Japan. All for Japan? Yeah. Right. I’m going to slaughter innocent people, its all for your own good… Wow…

  240. @Remmell
    As I said, the only people that I recall Nunnally really talking to (other than Kallen, the one time with Lelouch, the one time with Zero, and her public announcements) are Suzaku, her overseer, and Anya and none of them are likely to help her. What I see as fully possible is Nunnally wanting to find a way to free Kallen. She doesn’t have the authority to do it, so if she was going to make it happen, she’d have to get someone to help her. However, I don’t see anyone being able to help her, so I don’t know how she’d be able to manage it. I bring it up because if she knew about what Suzaku is doing to Kallen, she’d definitely want to free Kallen and would therefore find a way if she could. It is a possible route for Kallen to get free. However, as you rightly point out (and I thought that I clearly pointed out before, but I guess not), she doesn’t really have anyone obvious to help her. It’s just that that’s the only way that I could see her even maybe being able to free Kallen. She certainly can’t do it by ordering it.

  241. Ummm…Dragon@

    I think you are getting Suzaku mixed up with Rolo & Lelouche. Suzaku fights against the terrorist, and really that is who he kills. I really want you to mention a time he killed an innocent throughout the series. I can give you three dozen for Lelouche & two for Rolo.

    As for Suzaku’s stance, let me give you an example:

    If he had been allowed to pilot his knightmare in the beginning …he would had squash the terrorist before they had a chance to go underground. In other words, he would have stopped that truck a whole lot earlier. Thus, there would have been no reason for the command to wipe out all of those people & no excuse for the massacre. If he had been, in the same position as he is in now, he would have been in command. He wouldn’t have even given such an order.

    Now, let’s give lelouche the same power that he has now, do you think that place would have been spared or do you think a battle there still would have broken out & a lot of people would have died?

    THat is kind of why I back Suzaku …I see a real solution in his plan, while, there has to be billions or more blood shed before Lelouche’s plan will even see sunlight.


    I can take that dislike of him, but, maybe Suzaku wants to force Kallen to remember her good times at the academy & what Zero destroyed. He could just be trying to figure out why she is so loyal to Zero or why she is so set on the rebel by learning more about her past. Then use that to break Kallen down. Okay, I am going to stop there … I am giving Suzaku too much credit.

    He is just pissed off, and, he’s not going to take it anymore.


    Umm…Nunnelly could actually set Kallen free.

    She is over the region for pity sake & is a princess, but, she isn’t Nunnelly’s prisoner. SHe is Suzaku’s prisoner, and to be quite frank why go through the trouble to capture an enemy only to set them free a few moments later? If you guys looks at half of what you are saying …all murders would be set free to roam the streets just because you happnen to know them.

    Nunnelly has her part to play as well.

    A peaceful world is a perfect world, and there is no such thing, so there will be grays unless you plan to kill all criminals. Then wouldn’t that be going striaght to black, which is Lelouche’s stance. Being a terrorist, Kallen is actually getting better treatment than she deserve, and that has more to do with her affliation with Suzaku & Nunnelly. That boy does to her, what Zero constantly does to him, He tries to turn her instead of trying to eliminate her.

    [[Spoiler: Oh yeah, Refrain was refrain from use, so now, about Suzaku’s princples jump again.]]

  242. Example is in season 1. Episode 13. Suzaku questions killing innocents. But he still fires. He’s conflicted, but hes right along with the other soldiers firing away.

    Black Knights are not terrorists. They’re called terrorists by Britannia. They’re are a legitimate resistance movement. Kyoto family was also backing them.

    Suzaku wants to save people and change things from within. It would work… Normally. But hes not at the top of the game in code geass. If efforts will prove vain, no matter how noble. He knows nothing about geass, and would continue to be used as a tool/weapon against all resistance. This also includes innocent people. He’s become a hardcore advocate of the ‘greater good’ philosophy. Suzaku himself says that he is a sinner and deserves to die. He’s killed his father. He’s sold out his friends. He’s lied to Nunally. He’s threatening Kallen with refrain. There seems to be no limits with this person anymore. Except his promise with Lelouch to save Nunally and the Japanese..

    Rolo is an assassin. I’m not confusing him with Suzaku. I was throwing in the friend and family talk because I have a friend who wants to be ‘too much of a friend’ and so then he comes too close and then becomes.. family. Its like saying to a friend or someone you greatly respect, “hey don’t worry about it, you’re one of the family now, you’re a “brother/sister” to me. Rolo isn’t even blood to Lelouch. Actually Rolo was forced on to Lelouch and by Rolo’s own will, continues to force himself onto Lelouch.

    In short, Rolo is being too much of a brother while Suzaku is being too much of a friend. So that Suzaku has become Lelouch’s enemy because of it while Rolo has become marked for death.

  243. Dragon@

    Ummm, those weren’t civilians that he question killing, but a group of Japanense rebels/terrorist whom tried to surrender. Oh, didn’t Lelouche blow them up anyway. Try again.

    Wow, thats funny, the word legitimate and resistance being put in the same sentence together …one behind the other. HOw in the hell do you become a legitimate resistances? You go and sign up with government and ask for a permission to slaughter and kill the government officials as you see fit. Oh, and make sure you get a wavier for any civilians that get caught up in your attacks.

    I am not sure if I should laugh at you or be afraid.

    You gave me one freaky incident, and even those weren’t innocent civilians, and then you talk about friends and family. Geesh, Lelouche should be your postboy for that one, killing off his own siblings. Anyway, Suzaku didn’t sell out his friend, because he did keep Lelouche’s and Nunnelly’s secret at school. You know, because he didn’t want them killed, but Lelouche put himself on the front lines. If you are on the frontlines then you can’t get mad if someone blows your head off. Zero was wanted by the government, and because, Suzaku didn’t let his friend off the hook, he is evil for that.

    Geesh, if I murder your girlfriend and I am your bestfriend, should you let me go free?

    I guess it’s because he asked for a reward that everyone feels he sold his friend out.
    Though, I guess that’s understandable, but really he didn’t have to bring Lelouche back alive at all? I will have to disagree with your feelings on Suzaku’s plan, but I don’t feel like explaining the same thing over and over.

    The friend and family thing could easily be turned around you know.

    Suzaku felt the same way about Zero, and Zero knew who Suzaku was and whom Eurphy was to him. To kill her anyway, to make it a point to target what your brother tried to build up and had been working on, can you truily call that person a brother/friend? To be the knight of the bloody princess automatically made him the white grim reaper, but then again, maybe he did do something in that split between zero’s capture and second season to warrent that name.

  244. @Silentveil
    I hope you’re not saying that there’s no such thing as “legitimate resistance”? That any sort of resistance is wrong and people have no right to rebel against those that conquered them?

    There’s a difference between a small group of people who commit terrorism and kill innocent people because of their beliefs that hardly anyone supports, and another group of people that have a nation-wide support from many people but are also considered terrorists because the government says so. Can you guess which one is the more “legitimate” resistance?

  245. Actually shadowblack @

    There is no such thing as “legitimate resistances” does that mean there is nothing to fight against and a reason to resist? No, that’s not true, but to be legitimate means that you must be approved of or recognized by a force greater than you and kind of go along with a trend of there being illegitmate resistance as well. You know, I can’t quite see myself saying don’t join that resistances group, because they are illegitimate and doesn’t have the government seal. ALL RESISTANCES ARE ILLEGITIMATE, or else they wouldn’t be called resistances.


    There is a differences between small groups and people with nation wide support that can commit terrorism and kill people, so according to your logic … Lelouche’s group grew from an illegitimate resistances to a legitimate resistances by gaining popularity. The Britianna army now see them as being a better group of terrorist than the smaller ones, and the people they kill are thankful it’s the legitimate group that is killing them instead of the illegimated group. Ah I get your logic now.

    Yes, I am mocking you.

  246. Legitimacy has little do to with a resistance movement. If they win, they make history and thus are praised for it. If they lose, they are condemned as rebels and criminals. Resistance movements are never legal – they’re going against the law of the land by definition – and thus will never be legitimate in the sense that the government declares them legitimate. They can be legitimate in the sense that the majority of the populace supports them and thus they represent the will of the majority of the citizens, but you’re talking about two totally different concepts of legitimate between those two.

    What you have here are two groups that disagree to the point that they are in an armed conflict. The difference between this and normal war is that only one of the two sides is an actual government. The other is a group of people who under the jurisdiction of that government. Legal doesn’t really mean anything in that context. One of the two sides is defining what is “legal” so the other side will – by definition – be illegal.

    Suzaku believes that the system can be changed from the inside – peacefully. Lelouch and the OotBK believe that the system has to go. They want the Britannians gone. And if that’s what you believe than war is inevitable. It’s not like the Britannians are going to decide that they were wrong and leave. If you believe that going against the government in power is always wrong, then Lelouch is in the wrong. If you believe that overthrowing an evil government is okay, then he isn’t. What you have here is two differing viewpoints on how change can and must be achieved. If you want to bring morality into it, you’re really going to have to bring a higher power into it because otherwise it’s always going to be skewed because one of the two sides makes the laws that governs the other.

  247. In many ways I see Japan as the American Colonies of this universe. I’m sure the Colonies were seen as traitors and rebels by the King and others. In that government they were living under they had little rights. Often times they were taxed for the silliest thing all because the king could. They had no say in the matter. It was taxation without representation. The Japanese people want to have the freedom to choose their path. That’s impossible to have while being ruled under an Empire, where the Emperor’s whims are absolute. Even look at the name Lelouch picked, “The UNITED STATES of Japan”.
    Like the saying goes. One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. Just as one man’s garbage is another man’s treasure. It’s all in where you stand. Benedict Arnold is seen as a traitor in the US, but in Britain he was seen as a hero of the times.
    In an empire you don’t bring change slowly through the people. You have to change the mind of the Emperor. Any other way could just lead to death. A slow change like that could be called an uprising and crushed as illegal. Not to mention how many innocent Japanese need to suffer and die while they have to wait for Suzaku to change everyone’s mind?

    Lelouch has said the world he wants to make wont discriminate between Japanese or Britannian. It’s about justice and true freedom. It’s the system they are under he rejects, not the people.

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