「アリーシャ・ディフダ」 (Alisha Diphda)
What’s the best thing about this adaptation? Alisha. When I saw this episode was named after her, I knew I was going to enjoy it. And enjoy it I did. By the sounds of it, poor Alisha has diddly squat to do in the original game, and plenty of fans were disappointed that she didn’t live up to the status as the main heroine – I hear Rose takes on that role. Well, it’s clear that someone (or everyone) at ufotable either really likes Alisha, or they just listened to the complaints from those who played the game. Without first-hand experience, I don’t have any real anger or disappointment with the treatment of her character, but from what I see on-screen with this adaptation, I can tell she’s being given the absolute most to work with, and it’s making her the best character of the show.
None of the cast are particularly original; they’re mainly good fun to watch and their interactions are amusing (like Mikleo and Edna), but Alisha’s struggles as a princess trying to advocate for peace while fighting off her political assassins makes her the most interesting of the bunch. It doesn’t even matter if her storyline is purely filler or stretched out from the source material – it’s damn good stuff and Zestiria is at its most compelling when she’s leading a scene. It’s difficult to imagine that she (apparently) doesn’t even take part in combat in the game; maybe all those cool action sequences we’ve seen from her in the anime seem farfetched for a princess, but after spending time with her in the prologue and learning more about the direness of her situation, it’s not too hard to believe.
If they didn’t reveal all those weeks ago that Rose was behind that mask, then maybe her reveal would have been a shocking twist. Even so, it was a great scene – the best in several weeks/months. Their fight didn’t last long, but what we did see looked stellar, from the composition to the moody sunset colours. Even better, Alisha’s dedication to peace is pretty badass. In a less interesting character, it would come off as preachy and typical, but all the effort the staff have put into her character thus far makes it pay off. The fact that Rose even believes her is proof of that. I buy that they’ve now crossed paths and are bound to work together to protect each other’s interests/goals, and that’s something I’m looking forward to seeing. I don’t know how this scene played out in the original source material, if at all, but I imagine this was better by comparison. That seems to be the pattern emerging with Tales of Zestiria the X.
Sorey also gets some good material this week, as we see him being pushed to his mental limits when faced with a human-hellion hybrid. For the first time we see that trademark smile wiped off his face as he becomes unsure and hesitant during his fight, and then uncharacteristically melancholy when he visits the grave of a hellion victim. Sudden as it may be, I appreciate seeing this side of Sorey. I like that he can be serious and emotional when things get too tough for him, and pair that with how gorgeous the landscape scenes were in those shots, and you’ve got me more interested in our protagonist than ever before.
So this episode is 90% original. Let me break down the fundamentals of what changed before going into the episode itself.
In the game, Alisha is taken under Sorey’s command as a Squire so she can fight hellions. During a quest after Mariland is rescued, Alisha is apparently overloading Sorey’s batteries and leaves with a big farewell speech about how they can’t fight together anymore. This is completely removed because there’s only boss fights in the anime and Alisha isn’t a weepy woe-is-me character here.
The episode itself:
-Sorey helping the eco system of Mariland is original. Purifying the drake in-game was just letting the seraph take over and that’s it.
-Alisha is shown commanding a small army and planning high-stakes hiding of supplies to help Mariland. Nothing remotely like that is in the game.
-Sorey absorbing malice from human hellions is original. There’s literally no difference between fighting animal and human hellions. He gets memories from some shoddy gems as fetch quests to do flashbacks of bad people deeds.
-You know that badass Alisha that’s organizing her forces to stop a war? Kidnapped offscreen by the ladylake general and used as blackmail to make Sorey fight in the war. That’s it. You don’t see Alisha for like 10-20 hours later.
-THERE IS LITERALLY MORE ALISHA/ROSE INTERACTION IN THIS EPISODE THAN THE ENTIRE GAME. I’M NOT JOKING. Alisha only knows about Rose at like the endgame.
I loved Zestiria when it came out, and this anime is making me ashamed for liking the story.
Wow, so many changes yet again. Thanks for the clarifications!
I hope they do more with the Alisha/Rose dynamic now. Their scene was pretty great.
Not only that, this spidoe makes it very clear which point of the game this first part is going to stop and it couldn´t be better! Belive me Samus-san.
The game tries to do many things, but most of the time they aren’t resolved due to Lailah always telling Sorey not to get involved too much because he is the damn Shepherd.
The game is always in the grey area, which is a good thing most of the time, but too much of it and we get either a no resolution or a resolution with a bad after taste. There’s hardly anything positive in the game, it’s all so depressing The anime doesn’t do that anymore and will most likely just skip a lot of them in the future. Sorey taking on Malevolence as he purify is a very nice addition;
I miss the old Lailah and her awesome puns, but This gentle Lailah is pretty nice too
@haseo0408 Sounds good. A clear stopping point between a split cour is always a good thing.
It makes me wonder does the anime is how the game actually supposed to be? I mean maybe actually the game was supposed to be like this, but someone just don’t like it and tried to change it midway and then the game’s storyline ended up becoming a mess? The anime’s improvisation seems too fitting in improving the game.
Usually, a good anime showing makes you want to check out the game. After reading what you wrote I feel like staying the hell away from it. 😀
I how a deep seeded love for Tales of franchise from Tale of Destiny but the recent games past the PS2 I have not played. Damn this makes be sad to hear about the structure game!
But seeing Mutsumi Inomata character designs animated by ufotableis like heaven. lol
I miss Lailah and her puns.
Serious Lailah is cool as well.
Wow good on uFotable. They’ve really mastered making the adaptation better than the source. A feat many attempted but very very few have succeeded in. I thought they did a good job with UBW, but if that’s how it turned out in the game they’ve done an amazing job here.
Does that mean that in anime version Alisha might actually remain in the party? I will keep my fingers crossed for this because I really like her so far.
That end skit, love it. One of the biggest reasons I like Tales games.
On why the anime is focusing on Alisha… Well, Japan hates Rose’s guts. And it’s not on the level of “we just don’t like her” is on the “we actually sent death threats to her VA and the producer that pushed her character in the last minute to the game” one.
There is an entire Wiki article dedicated to giant mess that Hideo Baba (Tales’ franchise former producer) made because he was enamored with Rose’s voice actress. You can look it up yourself.
even with all that i still dont understand why people hate rose’s character. Whether in the games or the anime, Alisha is still a bland princess character (at least in my opinion; stories need to learn how to write these characters better). I dont get what is so compelling about her in particular or what was so compelling about her stating what she already did in episode 4. At least in the games, regardless of being a bit of a “woe is me” character, there was some semblance of a character arc happening. I appreciate the anime for making Alisha kinda badass, but it’s making her more one-note in the anime because a lot of the emotional turbulence she would experience in the game are being axed. It’s the same thing the anime did with zaveid; it’s like they couldnt wait to let the audience know that he’s a sympathetic character. Great, now where’s the character arc?? Maybe it’s too soon to judge but for me personally, some of the anime’s decisions are good while are a bit questionable. But the anime should stand on it’s own and i appreciate it for doing it’s own thing, even if this series as a whole is still pretty generic. I still dont like how as-a-matter of fact lailah’s lessons to sorey are. “oh sorey, you’re life is this…you’ll suffer this….oooooooo look at this convenient situation that just so happen to correlate with what im talking about;….that’s not good writing
and yea, the controversy is completely stupid
Actually it isn’t. Rose was a shitty Mary Sue in the game, people started hating her for that. Then all the bullshit that Baba pulled off, that broke the game, started to surface and it served to fuel that hate even more.
The people behind the anime were smart enough to not wake the sleeping dragon. Hell, when the first Berseria episode aired, people in the live stream (the NicoNico one) where pretty positive about it, then White Light started and showed Rose Armatization… It became instantly a mass of pure hate against her and the episode itself. That’s the level of damage Baba’s bullshit did.
Is it silly? Sure, but the game was a disaster and Baba’s pushing a character, a Mary Sue one at that, didn’t help. Berseria is a giant “fuck you” to Baba and to Rose as a character, that too shows how much the changes imposed were hated by the staff (Berseria’s staff is exactly the same as Zestiria minus Baba)
mary sue is not an intrinsically derogatory term. There are three dimensional, well fleshed out mary sue characters; I dont understand why most people throw that word around like it’s automatically demeaning. But im going to leave this topic alone because people usually dont have a filter when it comes to this stuff. The controversy is silly and dumb to me; it always has been. Is tales of zestiria the game a perfect narrative? No as i consider it to be one of the more underwhelming narratives with some of the most underwhelming characters in the game but Rose isnt one of those problems. Whatever politics went down when the game was rewritten might have been an issue but rose herself wasnt. Ill just leave it at that before this discussion becomes an unnecessary back and forth about interviews (which ive already read) and how it’s soooo clear Rose is game/story breaking
*Is tales of zestiria the game a perfect narrative? No as i consider it to be one of the more underwhelming “tales of” narratives*
A Mary Sue is intrinsically a negative thing, they are not well rounded characters. The moment you have a character that is well rounded then they are a Mary Sue they are not. a Mary Sue is a character devoid of flaws who exists as pure wish fulfillment. I know some people tried to “reclaim” the term but it was never a positive thing to begin with. The problem with Rose is that she isn’t 3 dimensional, she isn’t fleshed out, and in your party has the least reason to even be there, and also messes up the group dynamic.
rather than saying “intrinsically” (that may have been the wrong choice of word) i should have said “automatically” because of how the definition of the word “mary sure” has changed over time through its use in literature. People still throw that word around to denounce characters but fail to realize that having a “perfect-well rounded” character doesnt mean the character is not fleshed out or interesting or humanized, has goals, or even struggles to earn those goals in compelling ways. Characters are not just found by the traits in literature or just their roles and i wish more people understood this. But yea, i disagree with your reasoning and the whole “rose ruining character dynamics doesnt even hold any real ground. I dont really want to get into it because all it does is cause problems as some people dont know how to debate so just agree to disagree on that one
two great examples of good, well-developed and fleshed out mary sues that arent toxic to a story: Hermione granger from harry potter, or elizabeth bennett from pride and prejudice
Again, i dont get why people assume mary sue= terrible character. Now that, is not intrinsically true (which is how i meant to use the word in the beginning)
Except Hermione isn’t a Mary Sue, the fact that she has flaws, is treated as annoying by the other characters. She isn’t an idealized character by any means. The same holds true for Elizabeth Bennete. Being a self-insert and being a Mary Sue are two different things. A character can be a self insert, but not a Mary Sue.
I wonder where you’re getting you’re bastardized definition of a Mary Sue from. I think that you genuienly don’t understand what a Mary Sue is, if you’re not aware that it’s a bad thing. Again it seems as though you took the meaning from people who tried and failed to “redefine” the term.
Mary/Gary Stu characters are those who have no flaws. It is negative in the fact that there just isn’t anyone like that and there never will be either. So in effect it’s a failure of writing.
That being said, having a Stu isn’t necessarily a bad thing. There are several stories with Stu characters in there which don’t really damage the story. From what I’ve read, haven’t played the game, the criticism about Rose isn’t really directed at her per se. It’s more directed at Baba (the producer) who seemingly placed Rose in at the last moment, or suddenly expanded her role for personal reasons (as rumored).
Basically, people are complaining that the game and story seems to have been distorted (items for unusable characters etc) by a sudden change which Baba insists didn’t take place but evidence seems to point otherwise
Common misconception but in actuality there is a lot of criticism aimed at Rose’s character. People just didn’t like the fact that she was a kill first ask questions later character, but was also never called out on it, what made this especially frustrating was that Show Spoiler ▼
Berseria (whose main villain’s logic and ideals are just like Rose) and the Zestiria’s own guidebook also doesn’t help matters, it really makes her come off as a sociopath.
Then you also have the way how Lailah treated Sorey, because of her. People didn’t like the fact that Sorey was being forced to be desensitized to killing. This is linked more to Rose, because Rose’s purpose in the party was to be Sorey’s foil (scripwriter’s actual words), but Sorey never needed one so her character just ended up doing nothing for the plot, despite that however Rose has A LOT of screen time. Among other things there is literally a wiki that lists the things that people don’t like about her.
That being said there is a lot more positive reaction to Rose in the anime, because unlike the game many feel as though her inclusion in the anime was more organic. Also the anime is actually treating her like a regular character probably helps.
hermione and elizabeth have sue-like tendencies but they dont wander off into pure mary sue crippling context. The idea is that they can be defined as mary sue like characters even though they have some flaws (which is what prevents them from being pure mary sue’s but again, even those dont inherently break a story unless their truly toxic to how the story is written; which i disagree with in terms of rose) I think you’re the one misconstruing how a mary sue is defined/used in todays literature. The context of what defines a mary sue character has been changed/evolved over time so again, i dont see how im defining the term incorrectly. I think you should probably look up a list of famous mary sue characters in literature to see how the term has converted itslef over time and how categorical the definition has become (the funny thing is that a lot of your sources supports the idea that im presenting). It’s pure definition has changed over time. If you wanna say rose is a true mary sue then whatever, but i dont think she became toxic to the story the way other people want to believe. Also, what is with this idea that sorey didnt need a foil?? Any character inn any literature can have a foil; it’s not something that is determined by who the character is. Rose being sorey’s foil was crucial to his arc in the story whether you liked the direction of this arc or not. It served its purpose in fleshing out some of the themes the game tried to tackle.
Since I didn’t play the game and you did can you confirm or refute something for me, because I think it’s the most telling if there really was some kind of last minute change to the story. In one of the later shops where Alisya leaves the party for good, is it true that you can buy/get her strongest weapons I think I read that it was a weapon and armor with the name Diphda on it?
Yup, and there is also an obvious dropped plot concerning Alisha as well.
Could you finally stop bashing Rose? It’s getting tiring. I love Rose, I love the Zestiria Game and I know many people who like her and her character. And the thing with Baba and Komatsu Mikako is just a rumor. And even if its not … why is it even important? If he likes her, good for him! The game was not rewritten specifially for Rose.
thanks to people like you, I’m considering skipping the Zestiria reviews on RC. le sigh … why hating on something, if you could just ignore it? Or not watch the anime, if its “sooo bad”?
I don’t think it’s a bad thing if they did get together or if Baba really is infatuated with her. Good for them if it brings them happiness. I don’t even think it’s about Rose really, she just gets the heat because she is the “face” of the issue
Assuming the rumor is true. What’s wrong about this though is the professionalism involved. You keep your personal life and your work separate. Especially in cases like this where massive amounts of time and energy are poured into a project by a lot of people and suddenly the guy at the top changes things because he got a crush on someone.
Seems like there is a lot going on beneath the surface here. As an anime-only viewer I can only say that Alisha is getting the spotlight the main heroine deserves. I’m sure we’re all curious to find out what ufotable have in store for Rose (who seems fine so far).
the whole rose and alisha controversy is this decade’s aerith and tifa debate; it’s really silly. I think rose was one of the best things about zestiria which was an underwhelming tales of game in some ways but i dont shit on alisha. Sure i think she’s a bland princess character and this anime has done nothing to change that accept make her more confident but i it’s not like i dont want alisha to shine nor do i think that she doesnt have any merit as a character. As a matter of fact, im one of the few people who appreciated that alisha had some semblance of an arc going on in the games in contrast to the anime. Asking for any decency/maturity on the internet really is asking for too much. On another note, it’s cool that alisha got her badass moment, but i wish it didnt come at the cost of taking away one of the proactive moments rose had in the game (not to mention i think the way rose’s identity was revealed wasnt handled that well, a reason being how the timing of the reveal and how the writing went about it). As the manager of the sparrow feathers, rose was helping out with supplies and commodities when the war efforts were taking its toll on mariland; however, this was something she was doing on her own, not because alisha requested it. It’s a small change but it took away from rose being proactive and naturally self-aware of the state of things. The fact that she took action on her own in the games showed her resourcefulness, her kindness, and her meticulousness as a business woman. It would have been awesome if alisha got her badass moment along with rose not all of a sudden binding herself to a contract with alisha. It felt like the anime was quickly trying to set up interactions between the two women and it didnt feel organic. A small gripe but the anime is the anime and the game is the game; you know. I expressed that elsewhere and had a commentor barrage me with the whole silly controversy…sigh.
The root of the issue is how the narrative treated her. The “scandal” only made the already existing hostility blow out of proportions. You can also thank otaku obsession with waifus for a big part of that hostility too. The way Bandai-Namco promoted Zestiria was a big factor in generating even more hate. It was a series of really bad decisions that created a perfect storm, and Rose (her VA too, the real victim here) was at the center of it.
The ironic thing in all this mess is that if we lived in Zestiria world the “controversy” would have created lots of Malevolence. It’s quite funny in a very twisted way.
Whatever the case, I’m loving what the anime is doing with Alisha. I’d say as it stands she’s the most consistently written character, and I love a good princess character, so I’m sold. By the sounds of it Rose got to do a hell of a lot more in the games, so unless you really love her, perhaps evening the scales isn’t a bad thing.
I think that a lot of the hate also came from the fact that there isn’t much of anything to Rose as a character. She’s really just around for gameplay beyond that she really just have little to no purpose in your party. To make an analogy for Rose’s addition, it’s like you went to the restaurant with a group of friends, and you have that one friend that orders the most expensive thing on the menu, then when it’s time to split the bill everyone pays their share, expect for that one friend who ordered fairly expensive item on the menu says that they don’t have enough money to cover their part of the bill, but they’ll pay the tip. Only to reveal that they don’t have enough to cover even that. Leaving you and everyone else to carry their weight. Now whether or not you get mad at this person is really dependent on how much you actually like them. For many of the Japanese audience her personality wasn’t appealing to them to begin with, the fact that she has so much screen and doesn’t pull her weight as a character really puts a damper on the character.
But they aren’t sues, they aren’t loved by everyone that comes across them and they also certainly aren’t treated as though they are experts on a subject. This is especially true with Hermione, she’s book smart but that’s really all that she is. Ditto with Elizabeth Bennete, a character is either a sue or not. They’re simply just well-rounded character, and as the link show with it’s definitions a well rounded character isn’t a Mary Sue. Because creating a Mary Sue is not an archetype and like Juan pointed out it’s a failure at writing. A character that has flaws that are acknowledged by the story and actually causes them problems then no matter how you slice it they’re not a Sue.
The concept of a Mary Sue hasn’t evolved at all, as shown from the evidence that I’ve given you. It is still very much a term used to describe a failure of writing. There was a small movement to change the meaning by a group of feminists but it failed, the only thing about it that has changed is that it’s no longer a gender specific term. So again your understanding of the term is wrong, that’s why I provided those links.
Rose being Sorey’s foil isn’t crucial to Sorey’s character, it’s only crucial to Rose’s. Because here’s the thing, no matter what Sorey still would have ended up learning how to kill humans even without Rose’s prompting. There also the fact that Sorey isn’t dead set in not killing humans, in that regard he’s actually more like Luke, doesn’t like to kill but still acknowledges that he has to do it. This episode is prime example of this, Sorey’s character wasn’t changed and yet he was able to properly purify a human and decided for himself to take up the true meaning of what it means to be a shepherd. The truth is that Sorey never needed Rose to get that development, in fact she may have caused more harm than good because Rose being Sorey’s foil resulted in Sorey never being allowed to be right. Rose being Sorey’s foil was for Rose’s sake it was to give her an excuse and purpose and role in the party, however because Sorey’s story would have resulted in Sorey developing in that direction anyway, a foil was unnecessary, because it wasn’t who caused Sorey to change it was Lailah, and in reality Rose’s presence just caused Lailah to compare the two. It was an arc where Rose’s involvement was completely unnecessary and inconsequential, even if she wasn’t there the arc would have had the same result, and probably one too, since Sorey would have reached the conclusion on his own.
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Again, ill reiterate that my understanding of the concept of a mary sue is not skewed or misinformed. It’s exactly because of this that i insist on elaborating that the context of the term has had a paradigm shift since it’s inception. Im not trying to attack you or anything, but i think you need to thoroughly read through every single one of those links that you suggested to me so that you can understand how the term at the end of the day is pretty nebulous. The thing is, you and juan are fixated on the aspect of “failure of writing” as a defining aspect of the term, and while for the most part, that is how the term obtained its pejorative nature, the subjectivity of how exactly to prove a mary sue has lead to shifts in its use and people changing how mary sue’s can be portrayed. Im really not going to go into this any further because as sound as some of your arguments are, this is beginning to get tiring. You point about rose being sorey’s foil is crucial for her is unbased because first off, foils usually work in a bidirectional manner. There is almost always an effect from both sides. People who bring this argument up about Rose being toxic to sorey pretend that she came into the story and all of a sudden started coaching him and not allowing him to make his own decisions. Yes, lailah was already trying to mold sorey into a worthy shepherd, but as she said in the game (and anime); the road of the shepherd is a difficult and lonely one. Rose served to be a human companion who would be able to lessen the shepherds burden. Show Spoiler ▼
The fact that you think that the term isn’t negative and don’t know what it entails proves the contrary. The fact that you continue to insist that your incorrect usage of the term is correct, despite the fact that I actually posted 2 different sources which defined the term, from sources that actually self update no less, and the fact that myself and someone else told corrected you and told you that it is in fact an example of bad writing, but despite that you still keep insisting on using the unrecognized meaning used by a small well-intentioned group of people, who have actually failed to change the meaning of the term ironically because they failed to recognize that the term has become gender neutral, and failed to recognize it’s origin.
Juan and myself call it a failure of writing because that what it was a failure to properly implement a character, which even if you ignore the circumstances that caused the failure doesn’t change the fact that it is indeed a failure, it’s just now a failure that the writers couldn’t help but make.
>ou point about rose being sorey’s foil is crucial for her is unbased because first off, foils usually work in a bidirectional manner. There is almost always an effect from both sides. People who bring this argument up about Rose being toxic to sorey pretend that she came into the story and all of a sudden started coaching him and not allowing him to make his own decisions. Yes, lailah was already trying to mold sorey into a worthy shepherd, but as she said in the game (and anime); the road of the shepherd is a difficult and lonely one. Rose served to be a human companion who would be able to lessen the shepherds burden
My point on foils still stands and you want to know why? Because Rose wasn’t crucial. Sorey would have learned how to perform the duties of a shepherd on his own just like he did in this episode, so Rose wasn’t needed for that. It actually took agency away from Sorey because they were pressuring him to change, rather than him deciding to do so himself like he did in this episode. Also your not helping your point about Rose being necessary, since all your admitting is that what Sorey needed was a human companion, but it doesn’t really matter who that companion is, so once again Rose is consequential because that spot could have been filled by jut about anybody with enough resonance. She doesn’t support Sorey emotionally, that was Mikleo hell even the creators have acknowledged that it was Mikleo who supported Sorey emotionally. The game’s theme again it was Sorey and Mikleo (creator’s words), Rose doesn’t contribute to that.
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Sigh………these are the type of conversations that are better had through actual talking
“The fact that you think that the term isn’t negative and don’t know what it entails proves the contrary.”
I didnt say the term was intrinsically positive but that calling someone a mary sue shouldnt always denounce their character. You believe this to be the case because the term is attributed to a failure in writing but like i said, the term has gone through many paradigm shifts since its inception.
“Mary Sue as Author Avatar
Simple as that. The original meaning, this one has lost prominence as a sole definition lately but still often gets invoked. People used to sometimes call their alter ego characters “their Mary Sue”, but this usage has mostly died with the proliferation of the term as an automatic pejorative” (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue).
“Originally, the term used to apply exclusively to fanfiction, but by the time of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the term “Canon Sue” started seeing use, applying Author Avatar standards to canon works (most likely inspired by the backlash against Wesley Crusher; even Wil Wheaton has decried the character’s obnoxiousness). It was around this time that the term started to lose a concrete meaning, since the label started getting applied even to characters who weren’t explicit self-inserts (such as the title character of the episode “The Empath”), but just happened to use similar tropes. It was also (most likely) around this time that the term started to gain its pejorative tone.”
These are just examples indication the background behind the term and how it started shifting paradigms from its inception to the way media and the general populus defines the term now
The term has become something people use to put a stamp on characters they hate or think are terrible written because they seemingly have no flaws. My argument is that you can have characters with bordeline sue-qualities or are portrayed as seemingly perfect, not be toxic to a story.
“Sorey would have learned how to perform the duties of a shepherd on his own just like he did in this episode, so Rose wasn’t needed for that. It actually took agency away from Sorey because they were pressuring him to change, rather than him deciding to do so himself like he did in this episode.”
First off, you make it sound like he has completely encapsulated what it means to be a shepherd by this ep. Again, i feel like you’re trulu missing the point of what this ep did for sorey’s character. It taught him about the weight of death, not about making the really hard decisions that may come later on; his arc as a shepherd is not complete yet and you’re making it sound like he has reached the point he has in the games; he hasnt. Rose and lailah realize that in their own way, they were being too hard on sorey and almost instantly flipped the script at that point. I think you missed the part when rose decided to take the burden off of sorey as the only way she thought she could help him. When she did, it’s not like she was saying “Yea bitch, keep holding us back”. She was very nurturing about the situation. She essentially said “Im sorry that i was a bit hard on you before; take all the time you need to figure things out. Ill always have your back and dirty my hands for you until you’re ready”. Where in that is that rose pressuring sorey??? Even if you were pedantic enough to assume that she was pressuring by subtle implication, the way she conveyed her intent to sorey was very positive so as to limit any pretense that she may have been trying to manipulate sorey’s decision. Again, i dont see where im contradicting myself
“but it doesn’t really matter who that companion is, so once again Rose is consequential because that spot could have been filled by jut about anybody with enough resonance. She doesn’t support Sorey emotionally, ”
Oh booooy…this is another can of worms i wont even bother opening because now you’re sort of making rules about what dictates a character’s role in a narrative and that’s a whole another essay. I will say that it’s clear that rose does help sorey emotionally. Everyone in the cast helped sorey emotionally and vice versa (some more than others of course but still). Mikleo is Sorey’s best friend and “love interest” and as a result, he helps in his own way but that doesnt mean he has to do everything. Note how i also said human companion. Sorey surrounded by seraphim; Rose was an adequate human companion to share sorey’s burden as his squire.
Lastly, I just want to point out that using the manga as material to counteract the game is pointless, because those are two different adaptations. You using what happens in the manga/changes doesnt prove why rose is toxic in the game’s version of the narrative. All it does is give you comparisons about how things were executed differently, and even then you’re not expounding on why the events of the manga lead to a better narrative.
Sigh…you know what? like i said before starting this post, these are the type of conversations that are better had through actual talking. Things get misconstrued in writing, especially if someone is just skimming material and whatnot so im gonna give up; you win. I disagree with your assessment and ive given reason why you’re wrong and you’ve done the same for me. This can literally go on forever and i dont have the passion to keep writing because i dont care enough. Id rather talk this through but as that is seemingly impossible, i will concede
the funny thing is technically, even when the term “mary sue” was first coined, it wasnt all that intrinsically bad before it received it’s complete derogatory transformation which goes back to my initial point about not always jumping to the automatic conclusion that mary sue-esque characters are always a bad thing. Alright that’s the last thing ill mention; no more responses from me from here on out
Once again you’re incorrect. The term “Mary Sue was negatively regarded from the moment when it was first coined. It originates from parody character that was made to make of fun of other unrealistic wish-fulfillment characters in Start Trek fanfiction. The magazine’s editor themselves pointed out that they disliked the character and stories that it was based off of and stated.
“In Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship”
So the term was always negative, it just changed to include author proxies and in general perfect characters who existed as wish fulfillment. It’s not the same as having an author avatar, or even a self-insert, though a Mary Sue can have those traits. It was in the links I posted.
In fact the movement to change the meaning of the term not from solely applying to female characters, as the original criticism for the term was that it prevented writers from making female main characters. It was negative from the time it was coined. The term really started to be used for male characters after the character Wesley the Mary Sue in Star Trek, was introduced and annoyed everyone.
I don’t know where you’re getting the “Mary Sue wasn’t always negative term” idea from because it simply isn’t true, and was always associated with a badly written character and a failure of writing. The fact that you keep misusing the term leads me to believe that you don’t know it really means.
I don’t want to litter this comment sections with links and translations from the guidebook, manga, spoilers for Berseria, etc. But yeah you’re wrong about the meaning of what a shepherd is. Like I said before Lailah is wrong about everything and everyone, including the shepherds duty. So you basing your knowledge off of Lailah, then here’s a gigantic spoiler Show Spoiler ▼
It should also be known that while the manga fixes a lot of Zestiria’s problems ironically by utilizing it’s lore and guidebook more and cutting out all the fluff and filler. Rose’s character is pretty much inconsequential, she’s very side questy, in fact they expounded upon the reason for Mikleo wanting her to join which was hinted at in the guide book but spelled out here. The reason is because Mikleo Show Spoiler ▼
So my saying that Rose is unnecessary to Sorey’s character isn’t my misunderstanding it’s my talking after seeing the creator interviews and what relationships the staff considered to be important amongst the group, the guidebook’s information, the manga, VA interviews, and Berseria.
still this “hate”, looks like Sorey need to purify some “fans” here. Let it rest, and just enjoy the “reset” of the Game Storyline. I really like it. I see it more as an “Directors Cut” edition
This is my reditt entry
also someone reply with that Rose is a Show Spoiler ▼
But the Anime here could solve this problem with giving Alisha also an Show Spoiler ▼
Supporter or Rose here do not have this connection. But we already saw a Picture when he was in the waiting line at the Church for the “Calibur Sword” test Episode. But until now no connection is made in the anime. Only the Players of the game knows this.. So this “Director Cut” could give only Sorey all the glory of the fusion, or they invent the “missing” fusion graphics for the 2nd “Power female” .. it is up to the Director here. While last one, would make some Fans happy
Sorry for my old habit. But this here is important for me
Same power level on martial arts perhaps.
But on seraphim resonance Alisha cannot be compared to Rose.
Rose has a much higher affinity with seraphim because of Show Spoiler ▼
Show Spoiler ▼
Don’t think they would rewrite that.
They’ve already rewritten that. Alisha isn’t even Sorey’s squire and she can hear the seraphim. It wasn’t important to the sorry anyway.
Hmm, yup don’t see the squire stuff mentioned in the anime.
Also Laliah said Sorey is now better and people can hear the seraphim just by standing near him.
I guess people with talent and belief.
So far the rewrites seem to be cutting the not important parts to shorten, merging/rearrange stuff, running events parallel and adding character scenes like the extra Alisha pre-game ordeals and some Edna flashback.
This is more like Tales of Unlimited Budget Works. Seriously this anime is gorgeous… It makes even a well animated anime like Re:ZERO look unimpressive when aired on the same day. It’s a product of much love and it definitely shows.
I wouldn’t go that far. In terms of animation, I’d say that Re:Zero has been more impressive at times and Tales of Zestiria is no where near the level as Unlimited Blade Works. They use the same techniques (down to same sound library) but it isn’t the same amount of polish. Not saying Re:Zero is an animation masterpiece, just saying that Zestiria is pretty average as well. It just “looks” pretty.
Apart from the action sequences that make use of the integrated CGI, I wouldn’t say Zestiria is the best animated show right now. It has impressive art direction, aesthetic, and colour design, but the actual character movement is stiff or limited compared to other shows (like Mob Psycho 100). I wouldn’t count Re:Zero as one of the better examples of that either, it’s somewhere in the middle for me.
yaaaayyy someone who has an eye and understanding for animation. I keep telling people that zestiria’s animation is actually pretty average and it’s the digital effects team that are making it as visually appeasing as it’s coming off. Ufotable doesnt have some grand budget; they have a good digital effects team, impeccable staff organization and work load compensation. An re:zero’s animation is nothing to write about. It works for what it is, nothing more, nothing less.
I studied it for three years, so I’d hope some of that knowledge comes through in my posts! There’s a big difference between art and animation that people often get confused over. Something can look gorgeous but have stiff animation wheres as you can have poorly drawn characters with excellent movement and fluidity.
Re:Zero has some very, very short bouts of masterful animation (like, possibly 2 seconds an episode at most?) Credit where credit is due I guess.
While Zestiria, anyone who has followed Ufotable know what they are capable of and that Zestiria doesn’t really hit the benchmark as say, Kara no Kyoukai. Zestiria’s animation is still great to look at, and works splendidly in some cases. But they also apply the techniques to scenes that make the transition a bit too jarring. For some of their other works like UBW, CGI was there to compliment and enhance the 2D animation. In Zestiria’s case, it’s downright replacing it at points for better or worse. One of the scenes that stuck out to me was the rope ladder from the first Berseria intermission episode. It was a damn, nice looking 3D ladder, but it just felt out of place in a 2D animation.
You can also look at most – all of the Tales opening Ufotable has animated. They only used 3D set pieces for complex camera movements where drawing detailed backgrounds would be impractical. But outside of that, their backgrounds were painted with meticulous attention to detail.
I definitely enjoyed this episode a lot.
Why one main character (Sorey), if we can have two?
I believe that they’ve also acknowledged multiple times that neither Rose nor Alisha were ever the heroines, the heroine of the story is Mikleo. Who knows what the initial ideas were but evidence from the dropped plots make it seem as though Alisha was more of a duertagonist than a heroine.
This a common misconception done by fans, but there is no heroine in Zestiria. Rose did take Alisha’s spot but it’s partly for gameplay purposes. The opening for the game in the first Berseria episode showed Rose could Armatize with Seraphs, which is something Alisha can’t do. Berseria also showed what happens to people who shouldn’t Armatize.
Show Spoiler ▼
Also funny enough the Tales guidance books that always depict the hero and heroine instead had Mikleo.
Alisha finally gets the treatment she deserves, not some DLC crap
Okay. No one’s gonna comment about Edna’s yelp when that tower of water shot up to the sky from the river in the early parts of this episode? I get to hear it often in Tales of Link. 🙂
You know what would ultimately be THE middle finger to Baba and the mess he made? An Alisha ARMATIZATION.
Definitely the severe lack of fanart for this is disappointing, and an anime-original for this would be awesome and boost those up.
Kinda surprised that Alisha’s not so prominent in the source material. Really like how they portrayed her here. She looks like a naive princess, but she does have insight on the intrigues of politics and war. Putting reliable and capable informants in other units and brokering a logistics deal with shady merchants are actually good strategic moves for her situation. Her ideals maybe naive, but she does have the conviction to push for it. There is the convenience of the Shepard, but I think it only reinforces her belief that she’s on the right path.
Then there’s that ending skit. Gotta wonder what her real intentions were. Could be she just has a natural tact for it.
ufotable have done a convincing job with Alisha to the point where I never would have guessed she was shafted hard in the original game. It feels natural, and dare I say, the right thing to do. Of course, we’ll see how Rose’s story fairs in comparison, but two well-written female characters is better than none!
In ufotable we trust, I would say here =). I don’t play the game so my knowledge of what happens in it is second-hand i.e. unreliable. But based on what I understand from the stuff I’ve read so far, if the Rose we saw this episode is like the one in the game, she probably would have ignored Alisha’s resolve and kill her as she had set out to do, wouldn’t she?
It is amazing how they portrayed Alisha here. It’s what I craved for so long, since I played the original game.
For original Anime bit, I think because they don’t really have “game mechanics restrictions”, they have more freedom to re-tell the story as they see fit while staying to the original vision
And also unlimited budget. Because ufotable.
I’m really happy to see Alisha actually get treated as an important character, Ufotable is truly doing justice on this series, more than the game actually deserved IMO. I think with this adaptation, Alisha already ranks higher than many Tales Heroines I’ve played. Not just Alisha though, but even Sorey actually struggling for once mentally, and Mikleo going on his own journey and finding his own conviction to become strong without Sorey’s help, all these neat changes enhances the original bland story to something much more entertaining. The story and characterization is nothing groundbreaking, but it’s well executed and feels realistic. Also, we can’t forget the gorgeous fight animation and beautiful scenery we’re treated to.
Whatever drama occurred with the treatment of the heroines in the game, I’m glad it’s being somewhat resolved with an amazing adaptation.
I really hate Rose in the game. A complete sociopath. And to top it of the whole game won’t stop telling me how right she is.
(In game) Someone kill and rape your family. you mad and sad = BAM become monster.
On the other hand. If you’re a psycho killer that raped and tortured for pleasure but feel no remorse for it? well that’s totally fine = Not become monster.
Rose is a sociopath that kill people for the “greater good” but she’s also very very very naive and willing to trust the word of some shady politician. And even after she realize she’s in the wrong. She felt no remorse whatsoever.
Rose (In game) is a biggest hypocrite ever and no one (in game) ever called out on her bullshit.
all of this is incorrect
Absolutely right! Not going to mention anything past what happened in today’s episode(no spoilers), but in game, Rose was a walking contradiction; she’s hated for a reason. Let’s not even mention the DLC =01.
Even after a year and a half, the Rose hate is still strong. That’s just the testament to how much she is hated, and how bad her character is portrayed.
Wow, this assassination subplot still feels bad, glad that they finished it this time. All those justifications and opinions on the assassins side don’t make much sense to me. And now they abandon the mission just like that? Didn’t they say that they always finish the job? Wasn’t that the reason why they “research” the target before taking the job? (If you can call only talking to your employer research)
The rest of the ep was good, I especially liked the graveyard scenes.
At the speed of things it looks like season 2 will be the Rolance arc.
They can work their rewrite magic to shorten things but I hope there will be explaination on something thats always on my mind after playing the game.
Probably less Alisha in season 2 and more Rose 😛
then what is the purpose of “the X”? 🙂
No Alisha or Rose should not be written “out” of the 2nd season. Rose is the fighting Expert and capable Leader of the Thief, but Thief stay in the Shadows. Alisha is a leader type of the Light. Both are Ying and Yang, Alisha leads the Light, Rose the Shadows
Sure, both should not overpower Sorey and Milkeo in Screen time, to find the right balance and the right “volume” is here the crucial point, in my eyes. Good Luck
Remember, You have only one “Director’s Cut” try
I’m judging via the game story where Alisha is left at the Hyland side after the war.
Maybe there can be Alisha episodes.
Ok, there should be. To show what happens while the party is at the Rolance side.
To show additional stuff not in the game story. Kind of a side story.
Hopefully one of those can show what I want to know concerning Maltran.
The ‘X’ is pronounced as “cross”.
So one of the purpose could be the crossover to the Berseria story.
It’s a shame the director of the game had such hard on for Rose. Alisha was such better character. Rose is such a terrible character. I’m just glad the true heroine of the show is Mikleo not Rose.
That’s Rose for me (Well a bit overdoing here, but to get the gist)
Tomo = Rose
Misuzu = Earth Seraphim
As someone who has played the game…the characterization is still subpar. The changes have definitely been an improvement, but I was not at all convinced or engaged by the talk Alisha and Rose had. I’m not convinced as to why Rose decided not to kill Alisha in their exchange, the talk of sacrificing hundreds for ideals and the first life to go would be Alisha’s… and I’m like, “????” Why did Alisha’s determination change Rose’s mind? I assume that it’s supposed to go to the direction of Rose believing Alisha’s ideals and that’s still…ehhhhh. Cool scenes but still painful writing.
Perhaps it’s harder for you to believe Rose’s change due to your knowledge of the game-Rose? Without knowing anything else about Rose or Alisha, that exchange seemed believable enough to me.
this Band of Assassins have their own code of honor. You should know it from the game
I love the anime! My only complaint about it is this: they didn’t put Sorey and Mikleo’s adorable tickle fights in it! Whyyyyyy?!? That would have been sooooo cute to see animated!