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「兵士のさだめ」 (Heishi no Sadame)
“A Soldier’s Fate”
As Suisei no Gargantia rolls along, Ledo ends up making quick work of the whalesquid (“Hideazue”) from last episode. In turn, this sparks a turn of events that just highlights the fragility of humans—both in terms of our physical stature, as well as other intangible aspects like the relationships we have with one another—and bodes ominously as we hit the latter half of the series.
Indeed, while there was a lot here in this week’s episode, the biggest thing for me was how easily things started falling apart from the killing of one whalesquid. Of course, it’s understandable the reactions the Gargantians have regarding this—considering how they revere the whalesquid as something sacred—but at the same time, it just highlights how easily the good will Ledo built up in the recent episodes was lost following the incident. It goes to show just how fragile everything related to humanity is and it was admittedly made me feel somewhat sad for Ledo—considering how he didn’t know any better (or arguably, knows better than anyone else in terms of the threat the whalesquid represent). With even Amy joining in on that earlier in the episode too, it was just a big example of how no one really understood (or really cared to understand) the situation Ledo came from (and the situation he’s in now, as a person in an extremely foreign environment). Amy does redeem herself somewhat toward the end in her attempt to stop Ledo from just going off on his own—and in ways have their first real “fight” as a result (a nice development)—but still, it looks like the damage is done…
…because earlier developments would ultimately lead to Pinion’s recruitment of both Flange and Ledo for a salvage mission in whalesquid territory… and the heart attack that the Fleet Commander gets at the end. Needless to say though, this continues the highlight of human fragility that I mentioned previously—this time on the actual, physical fragility of life. Considering the nature of the event—that is, potential death—and the potential havoc it can wreck on the fleet due to the important decisions he was about to make… and well, things don’t look too great for the future to say the least. To top things off, Pinion’s apparent ulterior motive to avenge his brother just reeks of death flags—after all, these things rarely work out—and Ridgett as she is now seems incapable of adequately replacing her father as well.
Looking forward, I think this is one of those key moments where separation is not only inevitable—in terms of Ledo and Pinion leaving the Gargantia and embarking on their salvage mission—but also necessary. With the right development, it’s something that can result in better things in the long run—even if it leaves them somewhat shorthanded in the short-term, especially in terms of the Gargantian defense against pirates. Interestingly enough, this notion of separation and reunion as a story telling device is actually something that’s been used throughout a few of director Murata Kazuya’s previous works. I won’t go into details considering the potential spoilers into those works, but let’s just say they were handled quite well, and bode nicely in terms of future development. Notably, that’s without even counting the potential revelations that would come from a successful salvage run of “treasures from a foregone era of prosperity”—which could hold quite the key in regards to dealing with the Hideazue, either by revealing a physical weakness or by some kind of peaceful communication method. Considering the atmosphere of the series up until now though, I’d be putting my bets on the latter… though of course, it’s something to take with a grain of salt.
Either way, it’s a pretty solid episode for the most part this week, and it’s something that undoubtedly sets the stage for the latter half of Suisei no Gargantia. And depending on how things develop, we could conceivably end up with either one of the better series of the year… or one of the biggest disasters as well. Guess we’ll see how it works out.
It was obvious something would happen to the fleet commander since when he told Ridget she would be a nice replacement but I totally didn’t expect any of the other developments in this episode. I was really surprised and this makes me really happy.
I was panicking as hell during the whalesquid passing under the fleet scene. Nice catch mecanic bro. Ever since he had the idea to control Chambers in place of Ledo I knew he was awesome. I just loved that whole scene.
He is in the intro (last group scene), so it should say something about his importance 🙂
Wasn’t expecting the Whalesquid to be revered by the Gargantians. Was expecting more of Ledo accidentally hurting Bellows while attacking the Whalesquid. Since Bellows saw how Ledo reacted to the octopus meal, she should have taken note of his reaction and inform him about the whalesquid circumstances on Gargantia.
Really enjoyed the progression of plot.
Seriously, when a guy tries to shoot his dinner you should take him aside with a marine life book and explain a few things before putting back in his high tech death machine and dropping him in the water again.
I will say something, I personally think Ledo would be better off without Gargantia, for one reason simply because they are not trying to not understand him at all. Like you said, take him aside and talk.
With the way the episode ended with the heart attack of the Fleet Commander, I think his time is up. He made a very huge mistake since Ledo + Chambers were on board. I could understand to some extent – Ridgett’s behaviour, that of F.Commander is unacceptable.
Take for instance, the issue with Bellows and the pirate, instead of trying to understand his action, they almost charge him, and I also not pleased with the way Amy never admitting she went to him for help. Yes! Bellows tried to understand, but that is not enough to redeem the Fleet Commander turning a blind eye and keeping him at arms length.
I could understand, if Gargantia was always in a state of crisis (riot/pirates) but that has not been the case, so why the hell would they ignore the big elephant in the room, its pretty baffling, they would rather want to exploit him given the strength of his mech.
This show has an extremely simplistic conception of right and wrong- ironically, contrasted against the Butcher’s last show Psycho-Pass which didn’t. The Alliance and Ledo’s outlook on things is utilitarian in nature (Only the fittest get to live, must prove self to reproduce, etc.). Urobuchi assumes in Gargantia’s writing that such conceptions of morality are per se immoral and that there are never instances where they would actually be desirable. The massive, nigh-unanimous public response against Ledo for squid-killing is altogether unrealistic. In the real world there would always be a significant minority faction in the public that disagrees with the majority and wishes to dispense with the anachronistic traditions of the past- in other words Ledo would have lots of supporters.
I remember something about someone saying that Gen wanted to “encourage young people to enter society.” This show attempts to illustrate that process. Entering Asian society, that is. It’s outlook is decidedly collectivist- the opinions of the aberrant individual, Ledo matters not at all, instead public morals are extolled; the Gargantians are always portrayed as being “right” while Ledo is always “wrong.” Asian societies, especially East Asian ones like Japan, have little tolerance for aberrant behavior (E.g. counter-cultures like hippies, homosexuals)- act differently and you’ll achieve instant pariah status; shunned and ignored for the most part, condemned if you try to make your voice heard.
East Asian societies make little to no attempt to understand the individual, instead it is always assumed in those cultures that the majority is right. Tyranny of the majority is the rule– this concept of the “Tyranny of The Majority” which is a pillar of Western political philosophy is more or less altogether absent in Eastern thought, and even outright condemned by many prominent eastern philosophers such as Confucius who said, “Toe the line, say nothing critical of the anointed idea or personality, or risk ostracism and humiliation.”
Gargantia portrays this Confucian tenet in a simplistic manner that ignores its obvious flaws. Gen seems to be trying to say that the Gargantians (i.e. society) gets to order you around because they are always right and you should follow its whims unquestioningly as the individual because it is to your benefit- you will learn wisdom from them. When the fact of the matter is that there have been many prime examples of instances in history and the present day of when the majority has been just dead wrong. Like slavery and racism in America. And then in the present day in good’ol Japan there’s the whole thing about their school textbooks (Put in place by a majority of the older generation). In history class they conveniently leave out all the atrocities that their country committed during WWII which has resulted in the creation of a grossly under-educated public on the matter, many of whom are ready to support disgusting statements by extreme nationalist politicians like Toru Hashimoto (No small fry by the way; he’s the mayor of Osaka- that he even got elected is telling of the state of Japan), the son of a b*tch who said that wartime sex slaves were ‘necessary’. And the burgeoning growth of China in recent years can be attributed significantly to an increase in the education level of its citizens who have consequently become increasingly bold, many of whom are abandoning Confucianism’s collectivist slant for a more individualistic one and criticizing the government openly online for things like corruption and poor environmental legislation/enforcement.
Thus far the message the show’s been trying to send sounds something like this “Listen to society, kids because society is always right.” Which is exactly what East Asian societies expect from youth entering the work-force. It’s what East Asian society wants, but not what it needs. What it needs is a new generation of educated, individualistic youth who are willing to rebel against the anachronistic, outdated ways of their parents. Of course, East Asian societies fear this which is why in many of these countries the media is heavily controlled. But mark my words, political change towards greater democracy and individualism in the region parallel to its rapid development is all but inevitable- the older generation is in for a rude awakening, in spite of its vehement efforts to fight against such change…
I thought I’d add in another perspective to the people of Gargantia’s attitude towards whalesquids versus Ledo’s, by using more real-world examples.
Take for instance World War II, or the more recent wars in the Middle East. Our soldiers are trained to go over to a foreign place and kill each other. Terrible things happened on the warfront. But when they come back to the US, is it acceptable for them to kill non-violent Japanese-, German-, Iraqi-, Afghani- US citizens?
I get where Ledo is coming from. It’s what he was born to do, it’s all he’s ever known. But that doesn’t automatically make him right or the people of Gargantia wrong. Just as he has only seen the Hideauze as enemies, there are signs that the people of Earth have only ever had generally peaceful/beneficial relationships with the Hideauze.
Look back to the “Galaxy Current” explained back in episode 2. The people of earth rely on those currents to generate electricity, and they depend on them for survival. Now, the creation of a current is marked by electrical storm that rises up from the sea to the sky, in a form similar to the attacks of the Hideauze. Coupled with images in episode 7 where the “whalesquids” appear to travel solely along the Galaxy Current, it is no wonder they are considered as signs of good luck or superstition.
@Zen:
While there are many examples of when society has gone in a wrong direction and the individual is right, to just slap that onto the case of the Gargantia seems wrong (for now). Yes, they’re bossing Ledo around. But are they perpetrating any obvious atrocities? Are they persecuting others because of race/religion/etc.? Are there slaves? Ritual sacrifices? Cannibalism? As of right now, the people are shown to more or less doing nothing more than trying to live their lives in peace without hurting or oppressing others. That’s about as good as it gets.
The actions of Ledo threaten to drag them into a conflict that they are ill-equipped for, and from their perspective, make no sense to them. If he continued to stay on the Gargantia while fighting the Hideauze, the phrase “innocent bystander caught in the crossfire” would apply to everyone in the fleet.
Which is why I was impressed that Ledo took that into account so quickly. He might be dead-set on his hatred for the Hideauze, but at least he knew he shouldn’t drag unwilling participants into a war for no other reason than species.
As far as this episode goes, I think both Ledo and the people of Earth are right, but if I had to pick a side, I would go with the environment. In space, the Ledo is correct and the Hideauze are a hostile force that need to be fought/defended against. On Earth, the Hideauze are more or less uncaring and possibly beneficial. (It’s not like they demand the sacrifice of a virgin maiden in return for peace/galaxy currents)
On a different and entirely speculative note however, is it possible that back in space, the conflict was started by humans? All signs from the first episode point to humans having played a desperate game of catch-up in terms of firepower against the Hideauze for god-knows how many years. And seeing as how the Hideauze didn’t deploy some new weapon to surprise the humans, that kinda implies that if the Hideauze had wanted to, they could have wiped out the humans long before the Alliance reached a level of firepower-parity.
My point has nothing to do with the plot of the show, and if anything your statement proves it. It is instead a criticism of the message that that Gen is trying to send. He’s essentially trying to tell youths, “Listen to society, kids because society is always right.” as per the typical collectivist tendencies of East Asian countries according to the tenets of Confucianism. Gargantia is nothing more than a sleek, expensive piece of Japanese/East Asian social propaganda.
He’s basically trying to indoctrinate youths into becoming slaves to the majority through a false analogy- by putting a main character brought up with some of the worst values imaginable into an idealized “Mary Sue” version of society that can do no wrong and using this scenario as a proxy descriptor of what happens to every Japanese youth when he/she first enters society proper/the workforce. Which is an entirely unrealistic, dogmatic lie. The fact of the matter is that society is frequently not better than the individual. Yet in Gen’s Gargantia society is a Mary Sue which loves and respects all life and does no wrong, contrasted against the aberrant, inherently degenerate individual (Ledo) who can do no right. This is hardly the case in reality where the opposite is frequently true- like how the Japan textbook thingy is supported by the vast majority of Japanese citizens- clearly in this real-world example the majority is not in a morally superior position to any individual activist who fights against it.
He’s trying to tell kids never to feel oppressed by society when it tries to change them upon entering it because the individual is inherently naive and foolish; society always knows better and listening to it can only make you a wiser, better, kinder person; the individual is inherently degenerate while society can do no wrong. Obviously, this message is patently false; if everyone suddenly conformed perfectly to the whims of society human advancement would grind to halt; the evils of racism and slavery would still be rampant today- aberrant individuals are the key catalyst to the change that is necessary for positive social evolution…
@Zen
Ok, I see what you’re saying, but then isn’t it a little too early to apply it to Gargantia?
I would argue Ledo has not yet become an individual.
He is still functionally a member of Alliance and a shining example of the conditioning the Alliance applied to him. Up until now, he has been a largely unthinking cog of his society.
It is only when he ends up in Gargantia that he has been given the freedom and time to think for himself, decide on what he likes, fears (transvestites, apparently), etc. Unlike the Alliance, the Gargantia more or less gave him free rein barring a few laws which were put into place to keep conflict and deaths to a minimum.
If anything, I would say that Gargantia up until now has been a story about conflicting world views, and not about the individual vs. society.
Then why thrust a singular individual from one culture into the other and have him slowly go native? A story that is truly concerned about conflicting worldviews would have the two societies clash in a major way and involve an honest examination of the merits of both cultures. The scenario in Gargantia is too one-sided.
In any case, Urobuchi Gen himself has stated in an interview that the purpose of the show is to “cheer and encourage youths on entering society” as introverte pointed out to me several weeks ago. My contentions aren’t mere speculation; they are based on a statement that came straight from the horse’s mouth…
You’d be right if it wasn’t for the interview that lays bare the Gen’s vision for Gargantia essentially affirming my point even at this early 7-episode mark…
Not to say that the message of the show can’t evolve into a more moderate and innocuous form as time goes on however. And we can’t dismiss the (tiny) possibility that Gen was lying in the interview. But the prima facie evidence at this point in time weighs heavily towards my speculative contentions being true…
Well, if the two societies were to have a major clash, all the humans on Earth would have been wiped out. Possibly by a single pilot.
But what I was trying to say is that the theme that has been most clearly conveyed so far is one of conflicting worldviews.
I’ve heard about what Urobuchi’s intent for the series is, but what I’m saying is that he hasn’t really gotten to that part yet.
Ledo is essentially a child (killing machine), who has taken what society (his parents) have told him as gospel. Now he’s finally in a situation where he can make decisions for himself, take responsibilities for his choices.
To draw out the parallels to Urobuchi’s stated intent, the pre-workforce youths are like the people of the Alliance. For the most part, their worldview and behaviors have been shaped and controlled by their parents, school, and society.
And Gargantia represents the entering of the workforce, or rather, becoming an adult. There are a few basic rules the youth has to obey, but considerably less than when they were still in school. Barring those few rules, they are free to explore, experiment, and think for themselves.
For the story to have been about the individual being wrong and society being right, Ledo would have first have to have been an individual. But even now, he’s really just an reprentative of another society. The only thoughts that could be called his own were on what actions to take while fighting.
Right, but the situation in Gargantia is one where society is portrayed as a Mary Sue whose rules are always right. Ledo is certainly more free in the “society” of the Gagantia than he was back in the “school” of the Alliance. But increase in freedom is inconsequential to the part of Gen’s message that I am criticizing- the fact that the Gargantians are a Mary Sue society is all that matters. It is propaganda for the false and distinctly East Asian conception that society is always right and always comes before the individual. This is what is abhorrent to my sensibilities, not the whole “out of school” thing…
A person does not cease to be an individual simply because what he happens to believe in was indoctrinated into his being. Going by that kind of logic, lots of Nazi officers should have been let off for the atrocities they committed by the judges at Nuremberg. Because they believed as they did and did as they did not of their own individual accord, but because such a belief system was what the state had mandated and indoctrinated into them; indeed many of them raised this very defense- which failed splendidly.
What you believe in ultimately defines you persona- regardless of how you came to believe it. Like that ultra-religious dude who is the way he is because his parents were that way too and brought him to church every Sunday- his outlook on life defines him and is no less his own regardless of the fact that he believes in what he believes because it was “indoctrinated” into him by his parents. An individual who believes in something simply because he was indoctrinated into believing it is no less of an individual and equally responsible for both those beliefs and his actions…
Assuming that what you are saying about the message is correct, then Urobuchi is also saying that Ledo’s point of view is also correct, because he is a shining example of the society that produced him. He became exactly what that society wanted of him.
However, given his portrayal of that society, with the lack of independent thought, freedom of choice, disposal of the useless, it would be safe to say that Urobuchi does not look favorably upon that society.
If your statement about Urobuchi’s view on society vs the individual is correct, then he is also contradicting himself by placing the two societies on different ends of the good-bad spectrum. Seeing as how this is the man who wrote the stories for Madoka and Fate/Zero, where those who prioritized the whole over the individual were either portrayed in a bad light or got the shaft, that doesn’t seem too likely.
I see what you’re saying, but at the same time, it’s a bit of a shaky argument. We judged the Nazis to be war criminals. But on what basis did we decide this? On the rules of the society of the victor. I’m PROUD to live in a society where such things are considered reprehensible, but if Germany had won, they would have been hailed as heroes and patriots. Either way, they would be judged by the rules of the (victorious) society, not the individual.
I’m going to try and put a legal point of view to this. If we considered that to be the case, we should treat children the same as adults when they commit a crime. Children do generally know what is right and what is wrong. The reason we do not is because we believe children don’t fully realize the consequences or magnitude of their actions.
Put another way: we treat them as children because we believe they never really THOUGHT about their actions or world view, particularly in context of the rest of society. To that extent, Nazis or indoctrinated people are the same, at least if their indoctrination started when they were young. (And like the above-mentioned children, when they commit particularly heinous crimes, we treat them like adults)
Our society set an arbitrary age of 18 to be an adult, but the core reasoning behind it is “you’re old enough to have independent thoughts of your own. To be able to look around you. We won’t let you use ignorance or upbringing as an excuse any more.”
Now, this is just my opinion, but if a person has never questioned his surroundings, never tried to develop beliefs/preferences of his own, (and like in Ledo’s case) never even had personal desires, they may literally be an individual (single person), but they’re really just version 2.0 of whoever created them. Like a clone.
Show Spoiler ▼
Even if we concede that Ledo is just a child who has never really had a chance to think for himself and is just arriving at the age margin where he would be able to do so, we must still ask the question of “Who gets to tell him what to think?” Gargantia’s message is society gets to shape the youth in all aspects- Gargantian society (A metaphor for modern Japanese society) is portrayed as a Mary Sue that can do no wrong, and makes the superior decisions to the young Ledo at every turn. Essentially, Ledo’s slowly becoming another clone of the society he’s in- Gargantian, Alliance, two sides of the same coin regardless degrees of freedom in each; both societies are forcing their core values onto Ledo. turning from an Alliance clone into a Gargantian clone as he slowly goes native.
In reality society does indeed shape the individual- but the individual also shapes society; every Martin Luther King, every Gandhi, every George Washington was at heart a rebel challenging and overthrowing the preconceived norms of their societies in their respective times. The Index example that you brought up is ineffectual. It is one thing to do things that are external to your preordained role in society- it is another thing entirely to rebel. With the former society is not averse to your actions- it turns a blind eye because what you are doing is not confounding its values. But with the latter you are overthrowing the purpose that society has ordained for you- the slave seeking to be free, the black man demanding the right to vote- you are rebelling.
East Asian collectivism is not averse to “trying new things” or “thinking for yourself.” What it is averse to is new things and thoughts that rebel against traditional norms- and rebellion is the seed of positive social growth. Gargantia’s just like that. Ledo’s free to do as he pleases within the confines of the Gargantia’s (society’s) norms but is thwarted at every turn whenever there is a chance for rebellion. Because the show was written in such a way that portrays Ledo the individual as always being inferior to society which is always right. Which is completely misleading and patently false. Society is not always right in the face of a rebellious youth.
So the Japanese hate fascism- but it doesn’t mean that they aren’t collectivists. Collectivist in the sense that although there is some freedom in society to try new things within the context of existing social norms. As long as what you’re doing is consistent with/does not challenge traditional Japanese values, you’re good. What they loathe is questioning. When I said “unquestioning obedience” I meant just that. You are not allowed to question the norms of society- be free to do whatever you want within the predefined boundaries that it has set for you and even wander in areas where no boundaries have been set- but don’t you ever question the boundaries or attempt to cross them because society is always right. A Mary Sue. Which is ridiculous…
@Zen
Ach. I’m getting tired and I posted in the wrong place. My response is at
https://randomc.net/2013/05/19/suisei-no-gargantia-07/comment-page-1/#comment-976513
if you feel like continuing.
Guys, you’re not considered a sacred creature for nothing… The Hideauze are only given the respect they have because they are very strong, numerous, and apparently vengeful. It’s important to note that it appears they have a sense of mercy as well. Saying Gargantia has unfounded respect for these creatures is saying a lot, we apparently learn blonde mechanic’s brother was killed by these things. There IS a minority group that want to do away with the tradition and what they think is misplaced respect for the creatures, they’re represented by the ships that desire to secede from Gargantia.
Not trying to say the morals so far aren’t black and white, it’s obvious that the ships wanting to secede appear to be greedy, but when it comes to dealing with the Hideauze, you have to wonder who is telling the truth. While we can’t trust the propaganda set by Ledo’s faction, we can see that the whalesquids are strong, apparently claim and protect territory well, and appear to have some sort of intelligence (unless it’s all a coincidence and they just happened to be migrating but I doubt it), so “coexistence” may not even be the correct answer either.
Guys, this conversation is getting weirdly racist. Zen, I think you can make your point without trying to connect everything to ‘east asian propaganda.’ When a piece of western media makes it look like being an individual is good, is that ‘propaganda?’ Societies create media that mirrors their values, not as propaganda, but because that is how they see the world. It is not an attack on other peoples’ morals, it is just how they see the world.
To the actual issue at hand: As a couple of people have mentioned here and on other episodes, Ridget’s propensity for threatening Ledo is ridiculous, and getting more ridiculous all the time. Ledo has both stated, and demonstrated, that he is more than capable of destroying them all at a whim, and he has also shown that he will cooperate if treated with respect. Why would you keep antagonizing him?
As for the society vs. Ledo question, one thing needs to be established before we can judge. How did the war with Hideauze start? I don’t believe we’ve ever been shown that. Did the alliance antagonize them, making Ledo wrong? Or will they attack any sufficiently advanced culture, making Ledo right?
A story about trying to be peaceful is valid, but I do hope they do a better job of explaining to Ledo why he should be peaceful, logically, rather than just being naive and angry any time he shows remote violence in response to dangerous situations.
Whalesquids = Sacred cows of the futuristic sea
Arguably an extremely ham-fisted piece of plot development. It is probabilistically inconceivable that Ledo wouldn’t have learned about something so central to the religious beliefs of the people of the Gargantia in the substantial amount of time that he has spent with them thus far. Spend a month in India and it will immediately become obvious that cows are sacred. H*ll you don’t even have to go to India, I had some Hindu acquaintances back in high school and quickly I learned about the sacredness of cows from them much sooner than even that. Spend what appears to be several months on the Gargantia and not learn about their sacred animal? I think not…
I get the message that the Butcher was trying to send here, but he took the easy way out in doing it…a sacred animal is simply too obvious and high-profile for any marginally intelligent hero not to have noticed after spending a substantial amount of time in a new culture. He would be served far better by employing certain less obvious moral nuances of custom or accidental events- like unintentionally shooting down some sacred totems during a pirate attack or something…
I think people misunderstood the whole reverence of the squid. It isn’t anything that resembles religious belief. They don’t seem to consider it sacred in any theological sense.
Rather, it was made to sound like a basic cultural phenomenon where hurting one of the squids is considered very bad luck. And there’s a foundation of logic behind the belief; Ridget mentions that they only attack if they are attacked first, so hurting one means you’re messing with things you shouldn’t be involved with, which might have consequences later on.
So it’s not something you’d expect to hear a lot of talk about outside of the fishermen and treasure hunters who might regularly deal with them. Though that does bring back the fact that Bellows didn’t mention it Ledo even though they would likely run into one at some point during a treasure hunt.
i agree with the argument that you are using but it also has a weak point in your argument. in hindu religion cows are sacred (i am a hindu) and if you ever go to india you quickly understand that they dont eat or kill them. this is so easy to understand because the rest of the world does do this and india in one of the few places that doesnt follow this socially accepted principle.
similarly in ledo’s world hideazu (spelling might be wrong) is an enemy, something that must be killed and destroyed but when he gets to gargantia there is no mention of them. as for the whale squid if it was so sacred there should be some form of worship, or even say artifacts or anything to show that they were something special. i mean they were eating squid the very episode before this happened and ledo freaks out and tries to put a whole through it. if that happened bellows should have probably realized that something might happen with the other marine life and warned him.
If it was “just a little bad luck” then it wouldn’t be such a big deal; people wouldn’t have reacted so severely- that they did is simply illogical. What it really represented was a deep-rooted animistic belief in their society which is of parallel importance and profile to a religious taboo. And if it was just some animal that people “respected” the severe reaction makes no sense either. Case on point: We Americans respect the Bald Eagle. It’s our national symbol, you might make many people a little upset if you accidentally killed one, but you sure as h*ll wouldn’t be demonized for doing it. That is, unless the people you’re dealing with are PETA…XP And I’m sure the Gargantians aren’t supposed to be PETA…
A widespread cultural phenomenon, which is essentially also what every religious taboo is. Same difference. Sailor’s superstitions are essentially animistic religious elements- like say a strict tradition among fishermen to stay at home if it’s a red sunrise for the fear of “the bad luck from angering Poseiden” or something. Anything that widespread and severe would be part of day 1 sailor’s orientation. The fact that it wasn’t makes no bloo*dy sense.
_________________________________________________________________________
Let’s say that there’s a superstition against accidentally killing dolphins among sailors in a certain country; they believe it is bad luck. Broadly speaking, there are two different levels at which this belief could manifest:
Level 1:
Passing belief- They kinda-sorta believe it’s bad luck, or believe that it’s just a little bad luck. Probably a superstition of low importance which isn’t part of sailor’s orientation and isn’t a huge deal if you happen to break- no one’s gonna be ready to throw you overboard for accidentally killing a dolphin.
Level 2:
Intense belief- The superstition rises to the level of an animistic religious tenet where accidentally killing a dolphin is seen to be very bad luck and something of an occupational taboo. Any sailor who breaks it automatically becomes a pariah. You can be certain that anything rising to this level would be part of day one orientation.
The Gargantians’ reaction to the killing of the squid is a level 2 reaction- so either anti-squid killing is a level 2 superstition (Which means that this little piece of the plot is ham-fisted by virtue of being implausible; probabilistically speaking Ledo would have known) or we have a level 2 reaction to a level 1 superstition (Which makes even less sense)…
If sacred space cows in your country tried to kill you all the time, eradicated your government, your people, and you’ve been trained to kill them before you were even born and in your sleep, and you go to a country where sacred space cows are sacred, you’d still try to kill them too.
All of this scared talk is being taken out of context. They seem to have the same reverence for that creature as beach-goers have for sharks, although sharks don’t show you epic numbers of deterrent force when you kill one of them. They can’t do a damn thing against them if they would happen upon one while savaging – just like a swimmer can’t do a damn thing against a shark except hope it doesn’t attack.
All this conjecture between the Hindu & cows makes no sense. The Hindu aren’t completely terrified of cows. The Gargantians revere the whalesquids out of fear, it’s that simple. If taking out one can provoke that much of a response, I would be shitting bricks too – if I didn’t have Chamber.
Quite the contrary my friend. Rather, the response of the whale squids is being taken out of context. It is clear from the the discussion between the officials at the beginning of the episode that the Gargantians do indeed revere the whale-squid as a sacred creature. Now, mythology always has a basis in reality- and this reverence was born of the dangerousness of the squid. But the reality of the matter is that the vast majority of ordinary Gargantians (Most important characters in the show aren’t average citizens) aren’t aware of what the squid can do, but are aware of the mythology surrounding it. Which is why it was specifically stated that the ordinary folk thought that it would “bring about a curse” and not that “they were afraid of an attack.”
General public opinion did not turn against Ledo because they feared an attack; the uneducated Gargantian masses didn’t even know that the squid was capable of attacking en masse– it’s not common knowledge. Rather, what they did know of was the superstitious fear of the squid born from its dangerous nature, passed down through generations of informal education (The worst sort). The masses/public turned against Ledo because they thought he had killed a sacred creature which might bring about a curse, and not because they realized that he had provoked some dangerous wildlife- being uneducated, they didn’t even know that the animal was dangerous to begin with…
I’m not talking about the nature of whether they actually view them as sacred creatures or even the way they do so. I’m talking about how some are automatically associating this reverence with the Hindu & cows. The Hindu don’t close up shop, raise defenses, increase patrols, shit bricks, & pray like crazy when spotting a cow.
They are NOT afraid of cows. They revere the cow because a living cow can provide a great deal of substance of people & killing one would obstruct the natural cycle of life. That may be where the 2 are similar because the whalesquids provide those energy trails & all. But they don’t have ANY curses that can “put” on you for killing a cow. It is ILLEGAL to kill a cow in India. You can be imprisoned for killing/injuring one. Yet they still export billions of pounds of meat each year – illegally.
The Gargantians are people too. They don’t all share the same opinions on everything. If that wasn’t true then we wouldn’t have some of them trying to profit on the situation. Superstitions aside, this is a floating group a ships. It is VERY unlikely if a crew of salvagers are killed by a whalesquid, it won’t become the talk of the town. It really doesn’t matter how they view what Ledo did, what matters is what happens because of it.
Like I said, it was stated in the show: The public’s primary fear was a potential curse and NOT a potential en masse attack. They didn’t even know that one was possible until it actually happened at the end. One or two isolated incidents of divers getting killed by squid isn’t the same as the fear of a large-scale attack.
Sporadic individual attacks have indeed been occurring occasionally and the public is well aware of it. But this kind of fear is usually insufficient to generate the kind of intense superstitious reverence and fear for the creature that was present in the Gargantians. Like your example of sharks- sharks sporadically attack and kill small numbers of people and because of that folks respect them and there are many minor superstitions surrounding the creatures. But no one prays like crazy for the fear of divine retribution after accidentally killing one.
Large scale attacks (By the squid) on the other hand are rare and presumably have not occurred for a long time, long enough for the true cause of the fear of the creature to have disappeared from general knowledge due to the primitive system of informal education on the Gargantia, remembered only vaguely in cultural memory as a powerful superstition against killing them because it might bring about a “terrible curse.” The real cause of the Gargantians’ superstition was a vague cultural remembrance of the fear of a large scale attack; their knowledge of sporadic small-scale ones had nothing to do with it…basic cultural anthropology…
I see what you mean. The salvagers have the most experience with the whalesquid anyway. Bellow knew how to escape it as well as provoking it would cause it to be more aggressive. However, the way she was yelling at Ledo to leave it alone implied her level of dismay toward the situation, like something atrocious was about to happen if it was killed. That is much more likely to have arise from the fear of superstitions around the creatures than a mass attack. The mass attack threat is something that just occurred. An ancient attack might have cause the superstition – but it warped into a curse. It seems that the whalesquid has very little to do with the different threats they have to deal with everyday: water, energy, pirates, etc. They’re in uncharted territory.
But that’s still very different than the situation in India. There are no curses for killing cows, just crime & punishment. Rather than their reverence for whalesquids being religious in nature, Gargantians just want to get alone with everyone. We see some of the older people praying to the thing but that’s just them. It implies that the superstitions surrounding the creature takes on several forms.
I suck at analogies…XP
Dunno, what i should think now about it. At first, i think that we get to see a Anime, from a Soldier to make slow progress to adept into a Peacefully World. Now we get a Soldier back in Duty to kill. And some Peoples that use the right time to get Revenge and Profit from this. They are use him, and he dont care.
Dunno what i should now think about this…
Seriously these people actually revere the squids, just what kind of culture did the show creators try to make of these primitives. Now they are superstitious too? This whole living in harmony with the land/sea has got to end. When will these people make use of the advance tech that chamber has.
>Superstitious
Actually I started wondering if rather than being enemies these whale squids are saving humanity by inadvertently providing them with electricity considering how similar their color is to the galaxy currents.
It feels to me like the Hideauze might have been a normally peaceful creature (likely created by humans) that later gained to much sentience and was seen as a threat. Or going a darker route, they still aren’t actually against humanity even in space and the Alliance keeps attacking them to make sure that humanity has an enemy while those in the peaceful Utopia remain united.
“Seriously these people actually revere the squids, just what kind of culture did the show creators try to make of these primitives.”
that’s hardly an outrageous concept for an ocean-based culture.
“Now they are superstitious too?”
industrial level and superstition aren’t particularly related.
people are superstitious in 1st world nations NOW, even if there’s science to specifically debunk those superstitions.
“This whole living in harmony with the land/sea has got to end.”
why?
there are people calling on more attention be paid to how we use natural resources NOW. in 1st world industrial nations.
i really don’t get where you think this is a concept limited to “primitives”.
“When will these people make use of the advance tech that chamber has.”
you seem to forget a few important points =
1) how exactly are they supposed to take advantage of Chamber when they don’t even have the capability to disassemble Chamber to even begin to reverse engineer it?
2) they have a pretty limited comprehension of what Chamber’s advanced technology actually is.
“but they saw him in use!”
if you saw a particle collider, will you magically comprehend it?
“they know he’s a super advanced human from space!”
they KNOW he’s a weird foreigner.
beyond that we’re told most the people in their world don’t even believe in the space people “legend”.
case in point of simply seeing versus UNDERSTANDING, even after seeing Ledo single-handedly wipe out an entire pirate fleet, there were members of the Gargantia command crew who still thought they had some sort of advantage of force over him with which to simply steal Chamber.
Ridgett’s insight, in context, was remarkable that she realized Chamber could probably wipe out Gargantia in a similar fashion. keep in mind as far as we’ve seen at least, there’s no weapon in their world that appears to have that level of destructive capability (its not like we’ve seen a nuke lying around). so Ridgett pretty much jumped straight to understanding at the very least that Chamber is a weapon beyond anything their world has.
however there’s no guarantee, in fact its probably unlikely, everyone had the same insight or even agrees with her conclusion (and they can very easily believe Ledo’s just lying).
ppl don’t magically understand things they have never seen before; any more than you magically understand things you’ve never seen before.
and in turn they’re not going to magically understand any strategic value of it.
How do they use chamber’s tech? you ask for it. Chamber is an AI with advance scanners and scientific knowledge. You ask it to help you make weapons, make medicine, make better ships, , air crafts, rocket technology, anti gravity tech do whatever you want to do instead of just using it as a salvaging equipment for things that are less value. Pretty sure if the doctor had chamber scan the captain for his heart earlier they might have been able to predict something like this heart attack. Maybe also figure out why amy’s brother is bed ridden all the time.
If you tossed a car into the stone age or a remote African village, do you think the people could replicate it?
No. They don’t have the facilities, they don’t have the resources. Even if they know what a car is, they still won’t be able to do it.
Sorta like that.
who said anything about replicate chamber, I’m talking scientific advancement ahead of the current humanity’s capabilities, which is all in chamber’s memory banks. The ship people are looking for treasures in the wrong place if they dont explore what chamber knows.
Well, Chamber perhaps dont have the knowledge of Medic. Because Humans of no use, got killed…
Why would Chamber have any information about how to build weapons? If you access a computer on a warship, the odds of you finding blueprints of anything are slim to none. Not for the ship, not for their missiles, not for a toaster.
Well when I mention medicine, I meant that Ledo was in stasis for month so chamber had to have the means to monitor him medically. Perhaps it would have been more useful than that stethoscope the doctor used to diagnosed the captain’s heart problem. Just a thought
Hey Rasen you really think chamber who can converse with advance scientific principles all the time cant offer anything at all in terms of scientific advancement. Why should chamber not have knowledge on how his beam works or even the concept of a beam weapon. How about explaining that when you focus light particles with high frequency and intensity you can hurt someone. You think that kind of knowledge is of no value to people?
@Wise:
I think this way, because I know people.
Ask an average person on the street. They can drive a car, they can use a computer. They can work a TV. Could they tell you how to build one?
Just because Chamber is smart doesn’t automatically grant him knowledge. And in Chamber’s case, there would be solid security-based reasons to not give him any knowledge that could be used militarily.
I’m sure the security thing makes sense, but Ledo clearly wants to offer it, and I’m not talking about really galactic tech stuff. I’m talking about very very basic stuff from the concept of DNA to the math equations of gravity, and chemistry concepts the people at the moment dont seem to have. I find it odd that no one is curious at all about what chamber knows. Even if you dont know how to build a car shouldnt you if you were a scientist, doctor or an engineer on the ship try to find out. So far we have the doctor asking ledo where he’s from, the blonde mechanic guy wanting him to salvage junk (compare to chamber), Ridget giving him an invoice. It’s like they are so clueless as to what they have in front of them.
While I agree the people of Gargantia are more or less acting unaware of what a treasure Chamber is, what makes you think they don’t already know about things like DNA and gravity?
For all that they look primitive, they do remember that people used to go into space, that the world is round. Putting aside the lack of computers, their technology level for their machines and salvaging gear appears to be at a higher level than ours. We STILL can’t do bipedal machines effectively.
The people of Gargantia aren’t that technologically backwards. They acknowledge the existence of higher technology in the past and currently have mechas. Just because every street looks like a bizarre and people dress that way doesn’t mean they don’t know what a laser is or how advanced medicine works.
Chamber seems to have all sorts of general purpose knowledge built into him. I don’t think it’s inconceivable that he has all non restricted data available to humans inside him.
Look at how fast digital storage is shrinking in our world. 20 years ago 10 MB hard drives were normal, now you can get multi TB drives that are smaller. That’s an increase in density of roughly a million times!
Now fast forward to a world where they have real AI, gravitic drives and machines that can run indefinitely on an internal reactor. I’m guessing they’ll have an increase in storage density by at least a trillion times that of today. Easily enough to store arbitrary amounts of text about science, math, history, etc.
I have no doubt that Chamber COULD store ridiculous amounts of information. The question is, WHY would he? He is a self-sustaining war-machine, not some time-capsule meant to convey information.
From a security standpoint, there would be no point to storing anything more than the absolute necessary information needed for survival and tactics. Otherwise, what happens if Chamber gets stolen, or the pilot rebels?
From a security standpoint, most data is not considered a risk.
How to make current weapons/craft/etc? Sure. Classified.
How to make things from hundreds/thousands of years ago that would help Gargantia primitives? Not classified.
Are they guaranteed to be in the banks? Not necessarily, but Chamber is kind of a walking dictionary/encyclopedia based on the conversations so far .. Given that, it seems reasonable they would give him all the unsecured data, if it costs them essentially nothing.
@Joe
And why would they stick that non-classified, non-war related information into Chamber? Why would they waste the time and effort to stick in useless and obsolete (to them) information?
Chamber has:
-an AI
-a translation function, which could be considered necessary, in the event the humans encountered other species and had to communicate. But he did that through analyzing a language, not by having a dictionary stored into him.
-He has some medical functions for the purposes of monitoring the health of his pilot.
-basic guidelines of the rules set up by the Alliance
-can put his pilot into cold sleep
-environmental analysis
-battle functions
-star maps
Basically, everything he has is for the purposes of war, and the survival of the pilot. Nothing like an encyclopedia. He can probably handle complex calculations, but like I have said earlier, intelligence is not knowledge.
Baseball player don’t change their socks for an entire season because of superstition.
The people of Earth have a bit more of a practical superstition: do not piss off the semi-intelligent squid that can destroy a fleet.
Factor in that the Hideauze might be the reason for the Milky Way that the ships use to survive…
I can dig it.
and Why not? This is how human fragility prove! We human tend to hate/attack those of different specie with first sight , in gargantia , the coexistant between Whalesquid is beneficial , while they act as god(morale support). according to Bellow , whalesquids don’t attack if not provoked well Ledo win at that. best bet is alliance in space try to colonize the Hidiazu base planet and attack and you can look and how obedient the soldiers are, they must spit nonsense like , we need to kill them all. Don’t forget that at the end of the day in Ep 1 it’s accually Human who initiated the full scale war against Hidiaze and lost
horribly. If you watch Avatar(blue alien) you should understand the point of superstition, just as the blue alien worship their Tree , why the sailor shouldn’t worship a squid(or squidy leviathan)
if you have more question? just play Mass effect serie but for fun , for story , for philosophy and all. Technology isn’t the best way toward better life, it can go both way , and i doubt chamber have any interesting data except for military use. alliance gouv must be hiding something and limit it intelligence to minimal (they kill cripple ,sick and weak people after all). the best soldiers for them is the one who shoot at squid at first sight after all. and since Ledo use AI as Data bank he is kind of stupid since he rely on Machine most of the time.
I understand that you want to give advance technology to Gargantia but i just lol what is the point giving for ex a nuclear weapon to them?? They lead a normal happy go lucky life. i would be great if they have access to medecin but at the end of the day, Greed will rule all human ,remember pinion convince Flange? if people from Gargantia is on Chamber and know that just two sec all life can perish and turn to ash, i would destroy all their philosophy and everyday like just think of luKage on chamber slaughtering people.
Try to place yourself in the environment and setting think of yourself as a man/women on board gargantia who can see all the event and you will understand.
ps. when i watch code geass ,I get upset about how stupid Suzaku was and i keep getting fustrate by that but i forget the most important part of it. We are Omnipresent that why we don’t understand ,we know their feeling , all their action but in fact that isn’t true(just point of view) we think of ourself as god supreme in the story and result “Anime” to stupid show for stupid people. and in the end we get nothing.
It’s just like a book , place yourself in the setting and accept and you will undersatnd
I love this series. the two ideals of “peace no matter the cost” and “The greater good” have never been so well played or dynamically opposed. No one seems wrong in the argument about the Hideazue, fighting one way or the other. The fleet seem a bit short sighted but justified in their decision; similarly Ledo is justified in his crusade seeing as the Hideazue have killed what is probably billions of humans over the centuries but to drag the underdeveloped earth humans into the fight is to sentence them to genocide.
Over all great stuff this episode!
So it seems that this is how the war with the Hideazue began. Ledo took the Hideazue with him through the black hole but they ended up at different points of time.
Hmm, not necessarily. The way it works out it’s still entirely likely that they’re in the same time frame (or even in the future). They comment about how there used to be some well off civilization whose ruins are covered by the seas, which could very well mean that they’re the ancestors of those that went to space. Though at this point, anything’s possible.. though I’m starting to think that the fact the Hideazue are identical genetically (just with different adaptations) make it a lot more likely the time period is the same.
I really don’t think there is time travel.
Look at the situation Earth is in right now. If they tried a war with the Hideauze, they’d have been wiped out. Their level of technology couldn’t hold a candle to Chamber, and the Hideauze can fight Chamber on equal grounds.
And the state the Earth is in right now, they don’t have the facilities or the tech to reverse-engineer Calibur.
didnt the Hideazue create the blackhole, were they planning on coming to earth, or was this whole thing a coincidence
Errr actually, the wormhole in the first episode was maintained as a passage way due to the Galactic Alliance’s wormhole stabilizer.
Ledo did’t get suck into blackhole but a space warpgate or FTL jump hole
One theory: Time travel?
so are you saying the squids are the primitive versions of the space ones
I was thinking time travel for a bit, i.e. Ledo got thrown into the future and the humans and whalesquids are the descendants of the war that formed a peace of sorts to return to Earth together… but I think Gargantia’s people mentioned being left behind during the ice age or something.
My Theory: The Hideazue aren’t aliens but a genetically engineered life form created by humanity perhaps as a means of cultivating and exploiting the deep oceans, which could be supported by the existence of the nano creatures that create the galaxies.
Some of the creatures were left on Earth assuming they wouldn’t survive the ice age, they not only survived but were intelligent enough to use the nano creatures to thaw the planet which would explain why Ledo’s people believe the Earth should still be uninhabitable.
The space Hideazue were brought by the humans fleeing Earth and engineered for working in space but gained even more intelligence than their sea counterparts and rebelled starting their war.
Good Point. perhaps the Space Enemy’s, are ex-seafood that was adapted to live in space and escaped their Gage.
or they are ex-military creatures. Leftovers from a Human War outside in Space
It’s been mentioned as a potential thing… but I’m not quite sure about that being true at this moment.
Well, if you see this Creature that attacked Leo and prevent to reach the Carrier to go back trough the Black Hole, then you see a creature that is long dead. It was in our earlier times of Earth. so for me, this ones on Earth are just Brothers
Time Time travel.. that can be a good point. So perhaps it is Leo that start all of this Slaughter in the Past.. But then it must explain how the Past Humans could reach that technology, going into space, doing Chamber clones, master Black Holes and so on…
Time travel itself brings up a lot of good plot twists though. For example if all the squids originated from earth can Ledo simply let the alliance know this if they ever make contact, then they can just wipe the squids all out from existence
Time travel’s always an interesting plot twist (in my opinion), but judging from the atmosphere and concepts the series has emphasized recently (such as adapting to and tolerating differences and society in general), I don’t think that time travel is actually present here. Nor do I believe that the end game ultimately will result in the eradication of all the squid from existence either.
The basic thing for me is there’s definitely too much question marks for time travel to be a definite at this point. Seems like there’s a lot more speculation than actual substance to this theory at the moment, especially when you consider the details we have now—which include the fact that the Hideazue are identical (extremely, extremely unlikely unless the time period is very close), the fact that there seems to be remnants of an advanced culture of some sort buried in the sea, and the fact they survived a kind of ice age to get here.
It seems much more likely that the origin point of the Hideazue was on Earth and the ones in space are those that followed the Galactic Alliance on their exodus (adapting to space in the process). In turn, the only ones left who could survive the ice age were Hideazue adapted to the cold water/ice (thus sea) and the ancestors to the Gargantians, who managed to grow together in co-existence over time as the records and history were lost and the fighting parties went into space. This co-existence angle is also something they emphasized this episode as well especially, which is also why I feel this is more feasible, as well as why I don’t think the end result means the annihilation of all the whalesquid (or even the space Hideazue).
They’re clearly not identical – they look fairly different and fought differently.
Chamber said the sample was “identical” but it doesn’t make any sense that the DNA be identical when the creature itself is fairly different. Now, maybe he was just looking for certain Hideaze “markers” in the DNA, rather than saying the DNA was actually 100% identical (or maybe it’s technobabble because they might not have actually researched genetics).
WRT time travel, there’s nothing to point definitively either way. Whether the creatures are identical or not, both could be explained without time travel involved. Eg, species drift when moved to different ecospheres (or even in the same).
One idea though that popped up in my head, when Pinion mentioned about Advanced lost tech that could be found deep in Whalesquid territory is possibly the ruins of the Galactic Alliance fleet. (Sure, it’s far fetched but possible given that from what they said Ledo and chamber were both salvaged from under the sea.)
Then again the only creature with the same number of chromosomes as humans is a plant -_-
@FarHorizon
Or they could be larval forms. Or different caste, like social insects do – the space faring combatants are warrior hideauze, and the ocean-dwelling are the workers or breeders.
@Cybersteel
Number of chromosomes is pretty much inconsequential. It can change very quickly and easily, and tells nothing about underlying genetics. It’s just a number into how many packets genome is divided. Heck, there are some closely related species that have different numbers of chromosomes (like american and eurasian beaver, for example).
First off… I don’t know how you can say they don’t look pretty similar and fought pretty similarly… there’s an obvious structural similarity and similar fighting style too (see the scene where Bellows gets attacked for instance and compare to ep 1).
Also, the DNA thing is an incorrect assumption. Think of it this way, humans and chimpanzees only have 1-2% difference in DNA. 99.7% similarity is thus virtually identical for scientific purposes, but still enough to yield striking differences (in this case, ocean adapatation versus space).
Chamber is not the type to generalize or round the numbers. He is designed with the sole purpose of killing these things, I am sure he knows what their DNA looks like and would say something if it was even a bit off a 100% match. If he says they are identical then they are identical.
The larval form is a good point. I don’t think I was very clear by saying “fairly different”. Yes, they look similar. No they don’t look at all identical, but Chamber says the DNA is identical. That’s the issue I was raising.
Otherwise, no, it’s not an incorrect assumption. As I already said, they didn’t say 99.7%, they said identical. Unless qualified (which it was not, barring translation error), that means 100%. I’m aware of how close the DNA is of various things & that VERY different organisms only have tiny DNA differences. Thus my questioning of what identical means … markers vs actual 100% identical.
There’s (tiny) genetic variation for every member of a species, so 100% identical is obviously just technobabble. I wish they had done more research here.
I think we are making too big an assumption here. If I remember correctly, there is no indication that Hideaze is one species or sub-species at that. It could very much be a genus or a phylum or a distinction at some other level that would identify them all in the same category.
As such, when Chamber said it is ‘identical’, it may mean an identical sub-species/species, but it may mean that the DNA section which correlates to being a ‘hideauze’ is the same, though at a higher taxonomical level.
Gawd will everybody lay off the time travel theory. THERE ARE NO SIGNS OF TIME TRAVEL!! Not only would the introduction of time travel be cheesy but the fact that there being time travel in this would create a paradox so obviously stupid it would turn the entire anime so far into a big steaming pile of bullshit.
1) If for instance that ledo brought back the Hideazue from his time then the paradox of “where did the Hideazue come from in the first place” would occur. They would have had to have been created into the timeline at some point but you just can’t drop one into the past and expect for it to suddenly super evolve to adapt to the oceans of earth then re-evolve back into it’s original state years later if it even lives that long(not how evolution works but this is anime were talking about here).
2)Also unless that Hideazue was asexual i don’t think it would have been able to create all of those other Hideazue out of thin air.
This episode shows that Ledo has not left “Soldier Mode” despite the peacefulness of Gargantia life and that it might take years for him to recover. He’s been fighting for 16.5 Earth years and he is wound so tight he is near his breaking point. Amy has taken some of the tension out of him, but having a creature that matches biologically 99.97% with your enemy will negate that. Not only that but he is without any support if it comes to a large scale battle while trying to protect everyone, especially Amy. All that has to be running through Ledo’s mind hourly. It’s surprising he has lasted without snapping.
“How do I win?”
“How do I protect these people?”
You’d think with the Alliance’s technology they would have some type of visual projector built into Chamber. While Chamber probably does not have the entire Alliance history in video, he’d be able to show everyone his gun-camera footage from the last battle. I think if they saw that so many people on Gargantia would understand why Ledo is the way he is. Hearing the screams of people dying and crying for help would be shocking to say the least.
And when Ledo returns to Gargantia, he’s going to need a huge “Forgive Me” present for Amy unless she joins him, which I doubt. After all, distance makes the heart grow fonder. Unless the show turns super dark and he can never return or while he is away something happens to her.
Nothing better happen to Amy!!
Ahh well Ledo was all like how do I spend money last episode, and then we have how do I explain to them how dangerous these things are today. The guy has no social skills, you got to give him a break.
“Nothing better happen to Amy!!”
You just made Gen smile, bro.
Tell me about it.
But he did keep Akane alive in Psycho-Pass so maybe he’ll keep his knife off Amy. Or this will be the first non-Butcher anime.
Nice death flag. I’m totally expecting it though.
Its not a 99.7% match, its identical, says chamber after intensive analysis.
If you don’t plan to eat it don’t kill it.
They always forgot to tell Ledo about the important stuff.
I am honestly surprised that none of the crew wanted to listen, or truly take into account where Ledo was coming from. I was almost sure that Amy and her brother would listen, but I was gravely disappointed. Though, I enjoy the high tension and whatnot, but the reactions from the crew and the people of the Gargantia really upset me. I am definitely on Ledo’s side. Down with the Hideazue! Ledo really needs to let the soldier thing go though. I agree with Amy and her brother that he can truly be his own person. I think he deserves a chance to settle down and fall in love, but that’s just the lovey dovey side of me talking. The other wants this show to truly get into the nitty gritty of the two different sides, and see how they resolve it. Well, if they do anyway. Like Zephyr said, this will probably set the stage for the rest of the series. I wonder how the series will go since all we’ve been seeing is life at the Gargantia. I’m all for the separation because I want to see what comes of it!
Wow great episode. Clapping for all involved. (clap, clap)
The main questions is there a now is who is right? or is it a matter of view?
My leaning is a matter of view because the show is leaving vague many bits of info about the Hideazue.
Many many questions of the Hideazue: Are they sentient like humanity or another form of sentience (telepathic hive mind)? Perhaps no sentience and they are only hive minds (no, not the alien telepathic kind) like bees or ants. Engineered or evolved or both? Are they split into different groups or nations?
It could be Ledo’s people and the space Hideazue both left earth when it wasn’t livable and due to both of them needing similar living space went to war with each other.
Meanwhile the humans that stayed and the Hideazue who stayed may have found a way to restart the earth or waited till the solar situation changed.
i personally think that ledo is right and eventually those hideazue are going to evolve out of the water and take over. they arent revered; they are feared.
>The captain had a heart attack
>Hideous on Earth
Urobucher: OK, healing’s over. Time to mindscrew everyone to think I made another breakthrough and saved anime…
Seriously? I think when people are dying is when “fun with Gen” begins!
This has to be the first anime where I want Urobutcher to do his thing.Those dumbass gargantians piss me off.
Worshipping stuff you don’t know crap about.It’s funny how they were ready to attack Ledo when he first showed up and they didn’t know crap about him, but they just worship the Hideauze and all they know is “Umm derr they attack when they are provoked” Seriously?!
I heartily approve this sentiment.
I am somewhat suspiscious that Ledo is going to spark a conflict they can’t win ..
Who said they worship them?
IIRC, they just said that the whalesquids were a sign of good luck, and that they only attacked when provoked.
Even today, sailors consider dolphins a sign of good luck. Worship has nothing to do with it.
Actually even if you classify it as worship… a lot of cultures in history have worshipped things precisely because they don’t know much about them so…
What if humans on earth created the Hideazue and supporting ecology to fix the frozen ocean issue and that wipe’em out means a dead earth?
Also related could the space battle with Hideazue have been in Sol? I don’t see anything that discounts it. Star color a little off but that could be where the sun is in its life cycle. The flower weapon could be solar collector warming earth.
I will also guess that the whalesquid Territorial waters is around the lab/complex where they were developed.
in any case is just a matter of time: either the gargantian new salvage team enrages the whalesquids and the war starts .. or they discover something “down there” that actually makes the whalesquids stop ignoring the gargantians
IMHO is just as Ledo said: the only reason the whalesquids havent attacked the gargantians is because they are too primitive to be a threat .. lol 1 squid dies and 50+ show up to see whats going on.. they find the gargantia fleet powered down… then they just leave. AKA gargantians are surviving cus they are hidding .. there gonna be a time they wont be able to hide and they gonnna have issues then (but for it to reach that stage it could takes years and years)
PS: in anycase .. we got the first victim!
what the few million that Ledo’s people lost in the 1st epi dont count? At lest his commander/father figure? 🙂
They don’t count because only 2 of them had dialogue.
This was a great ep on so many levels. Some of things I’d like to highlight along with what Zephyr already touched on.
1.) It highlighted not only Ledo’s “soldier mode”, but just how deep his training and purpose in life is. If most men were presented with a world of simple wonder with a cute girl at your side, they would pick it. Especially faced with the possibility that he can’t actually make it home. But the Hideauze are so fearsome to him that he would abandon the little life he has made to fight them. Not just one or two, but ALL of them. Knowing full well that he could die. It’s pretty hardcore, and a great character development.
2.) It showed just how different Earth humans and the Alliance truly are. WHile chamber called there fundamentals peace and mutual prosperity, I think its more than that. Earthlings know a giant vastness that is the sea and all the dangers with it, so they adapted by hiding, running and just learning to let things go. But the Alliance choose to destroy all threats that come upon them, not matter how great. No amount of cultural bonding can change either one of those. Ledo kills on whalesquid and its game over for him in a lot of their eye’s.
3.) Just how little of a bond Ledo and Amy actually have. Amy obviously cares for Ledo, and one could argue the amount that Ledo cares for her. After last episode it certainly seemed as if the human part of the soldier was starting to come out. But in the face of his “duty” she was quickly discarded. I wonder if Ledo cares enough to think he’s protecting her by killing all the whalesquids, or if he really doesn’t care enough. Duty over love/friendship and such.
Either way, this show is COMPLETELY different from what I thought it was going to be, judging by the teaser and first episode. And I’m totally glad it has developed the way it has. Though I shudder to think that this is where the Urobutcher comes out.
Either way, I suspect the Commodore will die, sealing the “curse” that the Gargantian’s felt was coming. In which I guess Ledo will leave, with Pinion right behind him.
Speaking of him…I can’t figure out how I feel about him. He’s really quite a dick, but given what he knows, none of his actions are wrong per say…
Honestly, I think part of the reason Ledo wants to wipe out the whalesquid is BECAUSE he cares. It’s sort of a “I’m doing this for your own good,” type of action.
Why can’t this week be next week now! I wanna know what happens next so bad!! >__<
Interesting that the whalesquid are revered by Gargantians the same way Hindus revere cows. That said, what ARE the whaesquid truly?
If Cows could create electricity and shoot laser beams, I think we’d all worship the cow.
These electric laser cows of which you speak.
I must see them.
How about this idea. Ledo is an indoctrinated soldier from birth in a militaristic culture dependent on fear and war to maintain societal stability and control. The Hideazue coevolved with humans on the aquatic earth and in space and really are the same in both environments as they become deadly when they are provoked or attacked. The Hideazue in space are the ‘evil empire’ that Ledo’s human rulers use to maintain a socialist society based on fear and a need to survive. Ledo and Chamber will learn a ‘live and let live’ lesson that can be applied on earth and space when they venture into Hideazue waters in the next few episodes. Ledo will learn what it is to develop romantic feelings for a really sweet person, Amy, who in case you missed it expressed feelings for Ledo at the end of their confrontation in the current episode. I agree that they had better not mess with Amy.
“Co-prosperity with co-habitation” never works. Sooner or later one side is going to want more of the limited resources, strategic land/volume/space, or make changes incompatible with the other side. Ledo is right – the Hideazue (whalesquid) are ignoring Gargantia because they are not interacting with them – they are tiptoeing around them. As stated above by other commentators. (Notice how the Hideazue/whalesquid attacked the other mecha when Ledo/Chamber attacked?)
The problem is Ledo/Chamber are outnumbered and the Hideazue are shown to be hideously competent and unstoppable when riled. Self-regenerating-in-seconds weapons of mass destruction and individual soldiers by the millions type trouble. But Ledo can’t go out in a blaze of glory, either, because long-term it won’t matter to the Hideazue on Earth or in space. Right now the salvaging Humans on Earth can’t even leave their nomadic existence for technological progress. Ledo/Chamber hasn’t learned that. I agree with the commentators above that Chamber needs to technologically bootstrap Gargantia, even by some of the merchant captains.
On an unrelated note, anyone see the map on the wall behind Ridgett in the debriefing room? There were actual islands! Just not many of them. So Earth is not the “Waterworld” people originally made it out to be.
It reminds a little to India and its sacred cows, I think the Gargantia people has simmilar position with the hideazu.
no , is not the same situation: Hindu people doesnt turn off the ligths and generators in their business and hospitals and doesnt hide in a dark corner in their houses , nor they freak up when they see a herd of cows pass by.
I thought earth was where all the Hideazue lay their babies the first time Ledo was shown all that light and sparkle on the oceans.
I still think so.
It was inevitable, Ledo has always been a Fish out of Water but only now is he starting to experience true culture clash. The thing is, its really difficult to truly blame anyone, Ledo had just subscribed to his whole life that Hideuaze are monsters while Gragantia are rooted to their long-time traditions and see the “foreigner” as a bad omen for what he did. Its not really wrong, they’re just being human.
Its been 7 episodes and I can finally see Urobutchi’s thumbprint in this series. Human nihilism is pretty much one of Gen’s trademarks and its shown by the paranoia that resulted from Ledo’s actions.
I do find it interesting that Ledo briefly considered that it may have been his fault that he drew the Hideauze to earth. It does show that he is getting more attached to Gargantia and actually worries for the people there.
I REALLY hate how unforgiving the leaders of the fleet are to Ledo. They expect Ledo to understand everything about them, yet they themselves are unwilling to be accepting of his background.(What angers me the most is that Ledo was just thinking about everyone’s safety) Then, again, since I felt such raw emotions just from the very start of the episode, THAT is a sign of good writing imo.
I’m probably being overly speculative but I feel like the killing of the whalesquid seems to have some sort of connection with the war that Ledo is in. Given how sentient the whalesquid seem to be, the Hideauze were possibly attacking in a similar manner by space humans. It almost makes me think that Ledo was somehow sent back in time, and he himself ends up causing the future war with the Hideauze.
Again, crazy speculation but worth the thought.
Might seem crazy, but a great and intriguing theory nonetheless. I won’t be surprise or disappointed if it actually turned out like this.
Not crazy at all!I was watching the ep with a friend on skype and we also took that scenario into account.If that’s true,then Ledo would have quite the weight on his shoulders and his realization of that fact would definitely be something to look forward to.
Even if that’s just speculation on our part though,he’ll probably carry a burden of being the catalyst for separating the Gargantians.
You know what Urobutcher, kill these Gargantians.I’m sick of their hypocrisy bullshit.
When Ledo said “you humans are so busy fighting each other instead of focusing on the real enemy” I was like, you tell those dumbasses Ledo!It reminded me of Gundam 00 and now that I think about it, the way the Gargantians worship the Hideauze is the same way the scientists in Prometheus thought the “Creators” were worth worshipping.Look at how that turned out.
In the eyes of the Gargantians, Ledo is like the boy who cried wolf.So either way, once that Wolf comes out to kill those Gargantian Sheep, they’ll still blame Ledo, even if he didn’t kill the first Hideauze.
Nothing against the old grandpa having a heart attack, but I need to see these Death Flags get waved.I only care about Amy’s brother and the Doctor, everyone else needs their Death Flags raised, including Amy, yeah I said it!
Peace is not obtained by force but through understanding.
Tell that to the Nazis who ended up slaughtering millions and razing the entire European continent. No matter how unpleasant it may be, war is sometimes necessary because not everyone shares the same belief as you that all problems can be settled just by sitting down and calmly talking things out. Sometimes, you just gotta bloody the other sides nose a little (or a lot) until they’re finally willing to come to the negotiating table. Those who forget this important truth, usually end up stacked like cord wood, buried in unmarked graves or as piles of ash in ovens.
Ledo/Chamber already stated on the 2nd episode that “coexistence impossible”, which implies they already tried going for peace. I guess it might be because humans and hideauze are simply too different to be compatible for peace.
Yeah, but the people of the fleet aren’t really giving much room for the “understanding” part of things. They’re freaking hypocrites.
The main reason I call them hypocrites is mainly due to the fact that they demand understanding from Ledo, but doesn’t give a rat’s ass about him. Also, Ridget and the others love to shift all blame onto him.
For example: Ledo have to adapt to life on Gargantia and is expected to follow their customs and rules, but not once was he asked about what his culture is like or how are things like where he’s from. They expect him to forget his past and conform completely to life on Earth. Oh, and don’t forget the bill Ridget just handed to him near the beginning (though that can be somewhat understandable) Heck, they didn’t even wanted to believe he’s from space and though he was some nut before he wiped out an entire army.
Second: Remember when Ledo helped repelled the pirates? He alone help save the lives of the whole fleet from merciless pirates. If it weren’t for him and Chamber, who knows how many would’ve died. Yet after all that, plus his effort in trying to adapt to their way of life, one little change and almost all of them turn on him. They didn’t even wanted to find out why he killed the whale squid, all they did was went “Damn it Ledo, stop giving us this crap!”
Also, don’t even mention their stance on violence. The people of the fleet was like “Oh, killing’s bad. Don’t kill!” All of a sudden, when something goes wrong, boom! guns and weapons pointed at Ledo.
Phew, enough of my ranting. I’ll leave it be for now.
Violence vs non-violence…
Well, lets just say they are more of broad spectrum than opposites. Even heavily militaristic civilizations like Romans and Mongols understood and valued diplomacy, and, conversely, even strongly peaceful and neutral nations often keep quality armed forces (Swiss, Swedes, Finns…)
Violence leads to decisive results when one side is much stronger. When both sides are of roughly equal strength, it leads to bloody stalemate. This, of course might lead to the negotiations and peaceful settlement, or, in a darker twist of fate, to a “forever war” similar to Europe’s 30 years war, or recently Palestinian-Israeli conflict.
http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/aw0RvPx_700b.jpg
It will be interesting to see whether Ridget upholds the commander’s dying words or lets the “whalesquid treasure seekers” leave Gargantia. Ledo doesn’t seem to like Pinion & company that much, but he’ll definitely go with them to do his duty.
If Ridget upholds the old commander’s words about refusing to let them leave the fleet, then I am expecting even more human vs human violence. I wonder what Ledo will do in response to that? (besides be justified in his words about not focusing on the real enemy)
It also seems incredibly hypocritical for the commander to not let them leave. The natives have been claiming their entire culture is built around not worrying so much about rules, regulations & purpose with a capital P (pretty much the opposite of Ledo’s world) .. but the first time someone wants to go off on their own, authority is invoked?!
Finally! I’ve been waiting for a few episodes now for Ledo to finally say fuck it to their primitive culture. You can’t expect somebody to change their whole way/views of life in just a few weeks because their in a different place. It was a great episode in my book because their two cultures finally clash instead of ledo being made to adapt to their way of life. As he says himself “Im a Soldier!”……Not a hippy.
Makes you think about the origin of the hideauze. And why Ledo is lost on Earth, I mean, Chamber should have the location of Earth in it Galaxy charts (if he even had something like that), maybe the Alliance doesn’t want the Earth to be discovered because of a dirty secret.
I think like Red says, the only reason Gargantia has yet to be attacked is because they are not developed yet. Also there was a bit of foreshadowing when Ridget said that if the squid ever attack the fleet then Red can do as he wishes. This will probably come to fruition later.
I think the Hideauze area result of a failed experiment many, many years ago that got out of control and that it also relates to the nanomachines that are the galaxy seas. The Hideauze of space seem to attack sources of energy (a sun, the space colonies, the military ships) and the Hideauze of Earth follow the galaxy sea currents which are full of energy. It makes me think that the Hideauze as a species consume energy, which is why they have to shut the fleets completely down so that they aren’t attacked.
I think that the Gargantians have mastered surviving but have yet to risk living. They have constantly throughout this series hid their heads in the sand in favor of maintaining “the balance”, but they have never considered to take the risk to make more of themselves.
Ledo didn’t actually kill the whale-squid, he just gave it a really strong bear hug until it couldn’t contain it’s elation anymore and just burst from sheer happiness. What a mess it made though. I wouldn’t want to be the one scraping all that “happiness” off of Chamber’s cold metal skin.
What a bunch of hypocrites the Gargantians have turned out to be. On one hand, they believe violence is wrong, yet still have no problems brandishing weapons themselves and using them if necessary. Then there was that time in the beginning where they showed absolutely no concern whatsoever for Ledo’s well-being, when they contemplated just killing him and taking Chamber for themselves. Now they have the gall to get all riled up just because Ledo goes off and kills a squid that they consider sacred only because they’re afraid of it. On top of that, there’s the fact that this same squid wouldn’t hesitate to kill them all in a heartbeat if they would only stop crawling in the mud like primitive savages and actually develop themselves into a proper, full-fledged civilization worthy of respect. After all this, I now hope that the Alliance does intercept Chamber’s distress call and come to Earth with a sizable fleet, so we can be treated to a nice little war between the Alliance and Hideazue with the Gargantians being dragged along for the ride.
Lastly, that meganekko bridge officer’s sure got a lot of balls pointing a BB-gun at Ledo when he could’ve easily had her and the redshirts with her turned into dust without so much as lifting a finger.
I completely agree with this. I think the show is trying to show us just how hypocritical humans can get sometimes. When it’s about their own safety, it seems that anything goes. Once it’s out of their comfort zone though, they get all high and mighty and pushes the blame on Ledo just cause he’s an outsider. Makes you think about human society as a whole at times.
Having said all that though, we don’t know everything (or anything at all, actually) about the Hideazues. Still, whether they’re a danger or not, the way the people of the fleet are acting are completely unacceptable.
The whole uses of the phrase “co-existence and co-prosperity” representing peace and harmony is somewhat repugnant given Japan’s past:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sook_Ching_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalagong_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_under_Japanese_rule
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
Co-prosperity indeed.
I hope you’re not assuming that the people on Gargantia are Japanese and I really hope you’re not attempting to mix history that happened half a century ago with contemporary fiction that’s not even set in Japan.
Even in the Present and Future, there will be Peoples that play the WW2 “Guilty” Card, if they are out of Comments
If they keep playing it, then they just show that they stuck in the Past
No, I’m assuming Japanese writers created the series.
The phrase “co-existence and co-prosperity” was originally coined by Yamagata Aritomo in the 1915 when he criticized Katou Tomosaburou handling of the Twenty-One Demands. He argued, rightfully so, that Katou had roused anti-Japanese sentiment with the issuing of the Twenty-One Demands which essentially formalized what Japan had already gained by force from China — specifically his economic interests in Manchuria which in many ways allow Japan to be on equal footing with powers such as Britain and France. Yamagata said even though Manchuria was “Japan’s lifeline” it must always strive for “the self-protection of Asians and the co-existence and co-prosperity of China and Japan.”
“Co-existence and co-prosperity” became a slogan used by Japanese politicians, diplomats, and zaibatsu. A general notion, even if it proved to a completely fraudulent one, the Japanese could rally behind. The phrase Yamagata coined, came to embody the diplomatic philosophy of Japan in the following decade with initiatives promoting cultural exchanges which would demonstrate the benefits of Japanese rule and defuse growing resentment in the various nations Japan had since invaded and occupied such as Korea and China. It became the argument corporations used against individual rights of their workers. It became the excuse Japan used to invade and occupy other nations.
Japan came to feel it was responsible for freeing Asia from the western colonial powers much in the same way Yamagata stated that China and Japan must work together if they were to survive the western powers, but this very quickly became a cheap excuse for Japanese nationalists to gain the necessary resources and political influence to remain an imperialist power and later to stay a part of the War.
Japan’s interests in Manchuria, formally expressed in the Twenty-One Demands, became the occupation of Manchuria and creation of a puppet state. The occupation of Korea became increasingly brutal with cultural outreach becoming the suppression of the Korean language, forced name changes, the destruction of Korea cultural sites and literature, amongst other far more severe acts. By the time “co-existence and co-prosperity” became the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, Japan had already begun forced labour and conscription from its various occupied nations including widespread sexual slavery; a rather far cry from the ideal.
The concept that the Japanese had to occupy and rule over all Asians for their own good was brewing far earlier than the slogan “co-existence and co-prosperity” became the embodiment of their diplomatic policies, and even before Yamagata coined the phrase, but don’t you feel that it’s just a bit repugnant to use a phrase that is so closely tied to the suffering and death of so many as an embodiment of peace? Fictional or not, they’re using a phrase that has a lot of baggage with it and I can’t believe that no one here thinks its at least crass to use it so flippantly.
So basically,
The humans in space angered those whalesquid and continue to do so. Which caused a huge war.
Even in the first episode the Hideazue were attacked by the Alliance, not the other way around. I think it’s possible they are not really evil. Maybe they are providing Gargantia with power? That green color really looks the same.
All these comments about “how can they revere something they don’t understand?” What about religion and God? It’s exactly when people don’t understand something they turn to this.
Even in this time there are many superstitious people.
The gargantians could be a bit more understanding to Ledo. But then again when some foreigner moves to a new country he’s the one that is supposed to adapt.
“I was never really part of your ship, after all.”
Wonder if Ledo ever thought like that throughout the course of the episode. Probably not, but it was worth pondering especially since the previous few episodes showed him earnestly trying to fit in. He still remembers the reason of his existence – to fight, to be as a soldier is.
I don’t know about hypocritical, but for the people of Gargantia, it just so happens that Ledo’s way of thinking differs quite greatly from them for one of the more sensitive topics. The probable sad truth for our Spaceboy is probably summed up in the first sentence. On a sidenote, I do like how Zephyr talks about the recurrent theme of human fragility. It’s something I haven’t really considered when watching the episode. Good, coherent analysis.
One more point of interest is the obvious similarities between the whalesquids and the Hideauze. So many possibilities here, so I’d rather wait and see how things turn out for that.
I find it interesting nobody has noticed or commented on the map seen in this episode:
http://imgbox.com/adyfKayv
Good call, Mike! Wonder if those landmasses are inhabited…
interesting… compare Earth elevation map
http://serc.carleton.edu/images/eyesinthesky2/installgis/word_elevation_project.jpg
If my intuition is right, islands on the left side of Ridget’s map would be top of Rocky Mts., and on right Himalayas and adjoining mountains…
If the islands themselves are simply barren rock, they might not be of such value, though, other than as stop points for fleets to beach and repair ships?
Nice find man. I noticed it but completely overlooked it because of the heated conversation that was taking place.
Has Ledo’s skin actually become browner this ep, or is it just me?
There’s no sunshine in the space for you to get tanned, but plenty on the earth.
I noticed that as well, nice little detail.
“Humanity has been fighting these guys for ages! They’re the enemy!” “LOL Ledo pls”
It kind of amazes me how they refuse to listen to Ledo AT ALL. Like.. hear the man out. You already knows he’s from space. He knows stuff you don’t know about! But damn. Did not expect the squids to have the sacred status.
I really like how Amy was stopping Ledo because she cares about him so much (But kind of sad how she didn’t really listen to him)
Guess the slice of life part is over (for now) Can’t wait to see what happens next week
Wow! This is good story telling when it make their audience feel conflicted (like I felt).
It’s easy to have Ledo come off as some crazed shell-shocked soldier trying to get revenge
against an non-enemy on Earth, but I can’t help but feel torn by the “
Amy” side of the argumentvs. the “
Ledo” side of the argument.Ledo’s mission hasn’t been tabled because he is “marooned.” And despite appearances, he’s trying
to act in the best interest of the people on Earth the only way he knows how through his training.
Amy’s reluctant attachment to Ledo hasn’t been explained in the story yet, but it’s clear (in this
episode’s near confession) she has become attached to him. Did she loose her parents to these
creatures? We really don’t know a lot about Amy’s past…
Apparently, I was wrong. There isn’t just a few of these creatures; they’re intelligent and dangerous
at the slightest provocation (that the falling wrench (caught) could have set them off) and
there seems to be thousands of them. Chamber confirmed they’re identical to the ones in space.
Gargantia is terrified of them.
It’s interesting to see how fragile the political structure of Gargantia really is when a large
piece can “leave”, and effectively put the remaining population under-protected against threats.
But, could Ledo/Chamber stand up to so many? Will disturbing the Hideazue’s waters put the entire
fleet at risk, or is it possible that this is really the source/spawning place for the Hideazue in space?
Questions, questions…
As someone pointed out earlier, I was surprised by the map showing some (apparently) significant
land masses – there’s not indication that it was a “historical” (decorative) display map, so I
assume it reflect the current state of Earth. Interesting…
Again we are witnessing a culture shock. Ledo has been taught all of his life to fight, specifically to fight Hideaze. Co-existence doesn’t even exist in the Galactic Alliance vocabulary! Think of 40k Space Marine mentality: “Cleanse and purify! For the Imperium and Mankind! Suffer not the alien to live!”
By comparison, Gargantia keeps taboo on attacking whale squids, and has managed so far to survive quite well.
Ultimately, the judgement of the strategy is the end result. Galactic Alliance despite pouring enormous effort into warfare and sacrifacing much of what we consider as humanity, is actually losing it’s war. Gargantia (and presumably, other fleets) is keeping a low profile, wary to avoid squids, but is relatively prosperous.
In fact, considering their limited resources and low tech level, I think Gargantia has no chance of successfully attacking and destroying whale squids – even with Ledo at their side.
Ledo himself shows fanaticism and complete lack of tacical awareness as he is wanting to commit suicide by attacking enormous pack of squids alone. If all of the soldiers of the Alliance are this quality, no wonder they are losing. Courage is good only if you use it intelligently.
Yupper – great point. Thinking about the 1st episode they literally
threw themselves at the Hideazue in that first battle.
The invader comes from the bottom of the sea!!
They’re the spawns of Cthulhu! We’re doomed!
It seems most commenter here are in Ledo side completely. I’m not saying Ledo is wrong, but you have to look at thing from the Gargantian side. They’ve been living their life co-existing with Hideaze(sp?) and they’ve never even once attack them when not provoked. Ledo raise a good point with his argument with his “the only reason they don’t attack you is because your civilization is too primitive” because he fight with those Hideaze, but to the Gargantian, they’re not what Ledo said they are.
Imagine a scenario like this, you and your neighbor are not exactly friends, but in your whole life living there, they have never done anything bad toward you. One day, you host a nice foreign exchange student with a very different culture to you, and he suddenly claim that your neighbor is a rapist who hasn’t done a thing to you because your daughter is not old enough without any prove at all. Do you think you’re going to suddenly trust the foreign student’s word and suspecting your life long neighbor who has never shown any sign of being a rapist and start to treat your neighbor as potential rapist?
Both side is not on the wrong, the problem is, the Gargantian, unlike the viewer, doesn’t know the whole story and only know what they experienced so far. Do you think they’ll just let a foreign person, as nice as Ledo is, to come in and suddenly claim what was extremely different from what they experienced(the Hideaze won’t attack as long as not provoked) themselves so far without any prove to back it?
The biggest Question which should be asked,is ‘What ARE the whalesquid/Hideauze?’
Sadly, the Gargantians depicted lack the spirit of enquiry, and Ledo’s too obsessed with obliterating every last one.
Do you believe them to be aliens, or ancient genetic experiments gone wild? Your thoughts please!
I’m going to go with the latter. Both creatures are just too similar and we don’t know about the common ancient civilization of both Earth and the Alliance. Maybe these squid creatures were created on Earth for the purpose of creating electricity out in space. After the fall out humanity they escaped the labs and re-adapted to sea life. As for the ones in space something went horribly wrong and they turned on their human handlers. From that the never-ending war began.
But who knows? Perhaps if the Alliance didn’t attack the creatures would leave them be. Or perhaps Ledo is right about the primitive Gargantia fleet. Somewhere in their genetic makeup could be a mechanism that causes them to attack electricity-using technology. That last bit of speculation is based on the observation that the Gargantia fleet turned off their power sources. But hey, it’s all speculation on my end.
What did people think about the flute Ledo picked up from Chamber’s armour (screen shot 12)? Was it from the squid thing? Just wondering if I missed something…
Also a few people mentioned they thought it was silly the fleet commander never met with Ledo directly and instead Ridgett asked him to leave… I actually thought that was an interesting touch. I took it to mean that she knew about his heart condition and didn’t want to be seen arguing and losing her temper with Ledo and Chambers as it might make him worse/ the other council people coerced her a little into sending him away (she originally suggested involving them) perhaps indicating that she is more easily influenced than the current commander and more naive than what one might initially think. I might have been reading too much into it this though 😛
You’re forgeting that the flutes were made from Hideauze teeth, so Ledo finding one there after his encounter with the whalesquid shouldn’t be too surprising.
From the information we have up to this episode, it seems that the squids first attacked the human alliance for food. The type of energy that human alliance use can also be used by the squids directly. The energy technology that the human alliance use probably looks like a high quality food source. If that is indeed the case, humans would either need to develop alternative energy technology that the squids can’t use or forfeit it entirely. Humans may be able to live on earth without such technology, but in space… That may be why human alliance deem co-existence as impossible.
Well, at last for sure we know that the Fleet is about to Split up. Because if the Fleet Commander die, they sure will go away.
But, how they will get “away”. They need the Galaxy Energy line to live. So they first need to find a new Galaxy Energy line.
All here is based around these Energy Bugs. They create the Energy that both factions needs to survive. The Fleet to keep on living, and the Squits as food. So if you can control these Lines, you control Life on Earth. So easy
and these Split Faction, is build around Ledo. If Chamber is buys in a Fight, these Faction are naked against the Anger of the Squits. Ledo is only 1. The Squits are many. And the Humans on earth has nothing against them, if they want to take out the Ships.
Attack is the best Defense. But what will you do, when you Attacker is not there to Defense? No one here think about it so far.
The Humans still has no weapons that can take on with the Squits, they just have Ledo’s Chamber. I hope for then Ledo or Chamber keep being in Duty. He is a Human after all, and Chamber’s self combat Action was not shown so far.. If Ledo gets Bed ridden, it is all over for them
i think, the original idea here is, why they follow Ledo is simple. Profit, Revenge and Domination
Profit = Well yeah. Good Luck selling to someone if you are Alone
Revenge = We got to know it. Revenge for his Big Brother
Domination = If they found advanced lost Technology and come behind to use them. What think will do with your Ego? and if they find Weapons….
So, they better should have a Plan B in hands. If Ledo is busy fighting and the Split Fleet need to Defense
But 1 thing is for Sure. Ledo will survive until the End. Or this Anime will end very fast. So Ledo has the Deus Ex Machina until the end or beyond
Oh, and i forgot something important. Ledo’s Chamber are build for Space Fight. His Beams and such, are not fitted to work under Water.
You noticed the Miss, here in the first Minutes of this Episodes? So, Now imagine he will use Chamber with that low accuracy in Combat near the Fleet
If he draw his Sword, someone get killed. Someone that can be the Enemy or the loved one around you
I just Hope, that this Series is build on Ledo’s good conscience
Fighting alone is no big deal. But if they follow you, you still want to die and let them unprotected?
And if he begin to strike first, then in near future he is forced into Defense. Because he is only 1….
Something is odd about this:
Strange resemblence to moving Hideauze…
Or is it the other way around?
Strange resemblance indeed. As people have already mentioned that Hideauze might be the result of human experiment, what if they are not just mutated squids but genetically altered humans or squid-human hybrids created for space exploration? Since ocean is the closest thing to zero G on Earth, perhaps old human civilization used squid as a model to create enhanced humans capable of moving in space without mechanical aids, and when the catastrophe occurred some of the modified humans/Hideauzes escaped to space with other “normal” men and the earthside Hideauzes and humans are descendants of those left behind? That would give the human v.s alien war an interesting twist I think.
Is that a front view of the whale squid? Holy fuck how did I miss that…..
I believe it is a back view but could be wrong since there is little information on Hideauze’s anatomy, unless they are indeed genetically altered humans.
For me this was the best episode so far. There was tension, there was conflict, there was character development (Pinion).
Seems like lost brothers is a theme. I’m thinking a whale-squid killed his (Pinion) brother.
The moment Ridget said: “Hope something bad doesn’t happen” and then they showed the Captain in the doctor, I was like: “U gonna die”.
How long ago did Ledo land in Earth? Anyway they say they revere the squids for 40 years so he probably didn’t brought them.
I wonder if the Hideous were born in space or in Earth’s oceans?
Ledo is eager to fight. The fact that the Hideous adapted could mean that their behavior also changed.
But this being an anime he is probably right and they are not attacked because the Hideous don’t even consider them a threat.
“The fleet will lose significant defense capability!”
Urobutcher: “Excellent…”
Someone brought this to my attention so I re-watched episode one to confirm it. Seem Ledo wasn’t being discharged and retired his military service. He had earned shore leave. While on Avalon he could reproduce freely. After his shore leave was over, Ledo would likely return to military service since his time on Avalon was limited. He wasn’t going to live there like some thought.
Given the Alliance’s view on families, “It is inefficient.” I’m sure reproducing has zero love or involves dating.
It’s probably along the lines of:
1. Chose your egg donor based on her stats.
2. Climax into this tube.
3. Combine egg and sperm in artificial womb.
4. Thank you for performing your duty, citizen.
5. Return to frontlines.
And this is where I think you’re overreading it. The people of Gargantia as a whole are perfectly willing to let Ledo think whatever he wants. The only thing they’ve concretely imposed upon him is how he is supposed to behave, so long as he is living among them. And as rules go, they’re about at the same level as “do not kill” and “do not steal.”
If your complaint is that Urobuchi’s stance is “when you live in a society, you should obey the rules of the society. Otherwise, go find a society whose rules you ARE willing to follow,” then yes, I agree that is at least part of the message. It’s also largely common sense. I hate to use the bad example, but if your personal values involve bombing nuclear nations you don’t like, you either need to a)stop it, b)leave, or c)try to convince others that you are right. That’s just how it works whenever people band together.
The problem is that, like you said, Gargantia is a semi-utopia in that they more or less respect the individual’s rights so the few rules they have are sensible. The problem with your complaint about Urobuchi’s stance is that the most that can be concretely attributed to it is: “so long as the society is pretty darn good and sensible, don’t rock the boat.” To conclude Urobuchi is advocating the society as a whole beats the individual, he would have had to give a bad or fundamentally wrong society equal treatment. Which he does not, as evidenced by the Alliance.
I think you’re reading my Index example wrong. It has less to do with what society ordains, and more of at what point do we start considering individuals as something more than just a copy of their parents.
Meaningful rebellion is the seed of positive social growth. Just as often, there are stupid rebellions, and downright harmful ones. In America, there are people who form their own militias and white-supremacists form their own groups. America allows them because they still haven’t crossed the line, but if they did, what would you suppose the positive growth from that is?
It’s not always wrong either. And heck, Ledo’s only had two rebellions and the second one actually managed to garner a fair-sized following.
Ah. I see what you mean. However, did Ledo actually question or did brush aside the opinions of others? He does not appear to try to rationalize with the people of Gargantia regarding their opinions of the Hideauze, except to say what amounts to “you guys are primitive,stupid and backwards” and then he storms off. If anything, the people of Gargantia show they’re willing to listen, if he is willing to share. The current Ledo represents the collectivist mindset more than the Gargantia does. (He’s just a collectivist that’s all by himself)
Obviously I meant meaningful rebellion- it goes without saying that not all rebellion is constructive.
Yeah, and Gargantian society is always “good and reliable.” In the real world this is never the case- society does stupid things all the time. Gen’s message is indeed as you say “so long as the society is pretty darn good and sensible, don’t rock the boat.” But by using the metaphor of the Mary Sue Gargantian society he takes things a step further and also says, “Oh, you know when (Japanese) society is good and sensible? Always.”
Oh, the elders in East Asian societies are certainly always willing to listen to your doubts about the system. And explain away those doubt according to their “wisdom.” But believe me when I say that they will turn on you like rabid dogs once show any signs of true activism or rebellion, when your doubt crystallizes into true questioning in contrary conviction.
Sorry if I did. I’m not really into Index so I don’t know much about it…
My problem is with his lack of emphasis on the importance of questioning in society. Some of the points that Ledo brings up, although not in the nicest way possible, have merit. Calling the Gargantians “primitive” is actually true to a certain extent regardless of the emotionally charged manner in which he expressed this fact.
Right. He came from what was essentially a fascist society where everyone is subject to state indoctrination from birth. “Collectivism” falls on a spectrum. Fascism falls on one extreme end in which the state controls everything. Anarchy falls on the other. The healthy, balanced midpoint is Western Liberal Democracy. East Asian collectivism isn’t quite fascism but it is still far from a healthy balance falling somewhere above Fascism but below Western Liberal Democracy. What Gen’s trying to sell is like baked Lays potato chips (East Asian version of collectivism)- certainly better for you than the fried variety (Fascism)- but still bad for you nonetheless and has no place in a balanced diet (Western Liberal Democracy) Pardon my bad analogies again…XP
He may not be selling the worst product, but the bottom line is that his product is still bad and I’m not buying it…
…I was going to stay out of this, but then again I’ve never been that good at keeping silent.
Point of contention 1: The fleet’s negative reaction to Ledo.
I think anyone with attention to detail should have realized that this is overstated, for very simple reason – a lot of time was spent with the leadership of the fleet, who would be understandably concerned with the negative reaction from what is undoubtedly a large portion, but not the entirety of their population. For every superstitious granny or two, you probably have someone like Pinion, who has reason to hate the ‘whalesquids’; someone like Flange, who likely chafes at living in fear of these creatures and is willing to take the risk of coming into conflict with them; and some number of people like the mechanics Pinion was trying to sell his idea to initially, who obviously don’t really care either way but aren’t inclined to rock the boat. So the idea that Gen is somehow trying to sell a ‘monolithic collectivist Gargantia’ as always correct is pretty off-base – especially given that the ending bit and the preview shots of next episode seem to imply that Gargantia is about to become rather less of a single entity.
Point of contention 2: Likening collectivism to fascism – in fact, that whole allegory
Disclaimer first – my argument here has rather more to do with personal viewpoints than the show at all. However, blindly likening collectivism to fascism is frankly ignoring both the current state of the world, and doing a disservice to political understanding in general. Fascism is, frankly, a police state – one step removed from dictatorship, where the leadership controls all and enforces that control through rigid state systems, which often take the form of military and/or police organizations. Taken to its extreme, it becomes a rule of fear, where behaviour is enforced at gunpoint. Collectivism, on the other hand, is in many ways far closer to democracy – where decisions are supposed to be undertaken for the greater good of the community as a whole, and people are expected to fall in line with said decisions. Taken to its extreme, it becomes insular and unwilling to change, to the point where even the leadership of the country becomes unable to enact significant change – which, arguably, is the actual case in Japan today, and is something which Psycho-Pass suggests Urobuchi has a problem with. And, of course, democracy, taken to its extreme, becomes no more than either mob rule, the true tyranny of the majority – or it becomes polarized factions which, over time, oppose each other not out of true disagreement, but out of generations of ideological diatribe.
Point 1
Maybe you’re right. It’s just what it looks like as of now after all- I never did say that there’s no chance of things changing later down the line to prove me wrong.
Point 2
I’m merely referring to a loose spectrum of degrees of social control. Fascism is absolute social control at one end of the spectrum while anarchy is no social control whatsoever at the other. Collectivism is closer to the fascist end of the spectrum than anarchy in terms of its degree of social control. I am not blindly likening one to the other- I have real formal training in the field and fully understand the implications of what I’m saying…
Argh!!
Third times the charm, I hope. So I’ll go with the short and sweet version. Couldn’t one argue that a society based upon collectivism is doomed to die? Without discourse or even rebellion, a society will soon stagnate. This stagnation will lead to rejection of any advancements that could improve society, whether culturally or scientifically. Anything that doesn’t fit the majority’s view will be rejected.
Both Gargantia and the Alliance are stagnating in my view.
Gargantia despite it’s technology is a nomadic, scavenging tribe.
The Alliance is also a nomadic tribe but it is focused on a genodicidal war.
They are both on the way to death.
It always sounds better in my head.
Well said, well said…:) That’s essentially the core principle underlying my first comment all the way up at the top of the page- put way better than anything I could ever have come up with. I have trouble with keeping things simple…XP
Ledo is right.
Amy should wear a squid cap. ~de geso-.
https://randomc.net/image/Suisei%20no%20Gargantia/Suisei%20no%20Gargantia%20-%2007%20-%20Large%2027.jpg
and here I thought I was about to witness a massacre… attack on titan squid
I think the gargantian need to watch SNK, because there is one lesson that can be learned there.
“even though the squidwhale never attack us, there is no 100% guarantee that they won’t attack us in the future”.
Our knowledge of Hideazu is to little, what do they eat?, How do they produce?, If they have high population will they still coexist with human?.
People say that the hideazu is like wild animal, and we can coexist if we don’t provoke it. But if they are overpopulating the earth can we keep the coexistence?
Ledo action may look rash and stupid, but he has a point, the Gargantian need to give Ledo a tactical help so that he won’t be doing reckless thing like trying to fight hideauze alone without any chance of succes.
Well, Ledo is the only one so far. That can attack the hideauze. Do we saw some underwater Weapons so far? They only have Ship guns, and they are only for over Water action. No Torpedo, no Deep water Bombs.. Even with anti-Submarine Weapons they dont stand a change. So yes. Ledo is the only one so far that can hurt them
1. Ledo actually claim that “He can eliminate the entire fleet alone”
2. I don’t think a single Ledo could manage more than 10 squids alone.
So, if we’re using SnK analogy, I think Ledo telling Gargantia to fight squids is something similar to Mikasa telling the whole normal citizens to fight a legion of Titans without any weapons and real soldiers.
Probably the wisest decision for Ledo is telling Gargantia about the potential danger of Hideauze squids and starting to pound a better military awareness to Gargantia leaders, SLOWLY. But it’s not possible for Ledo since it would be out of character. Ledo is basically a brainwashed solider, and he doesn’t have capability and vision for that. The only thing that he could do is fighting, not diplomacy or any other visionary skills.
The best thing about Gargantia right now is attract a lot of debates and clash of views among viewers, but basically there’s no one right and wrong in this. Gen Urobuchi didn’t really try to force his own view of humanity this time, he just set the view-clashing parties in the stage and let all of things flow naturally as they should.
A bit odd that the squids are both sacred and terrifies people. A bit of a contradiction that they both find it evil of him to kill the squid while also being afraid of the squids attacking them. It makes sense to not want to anger dangerous creatures, but it’s strange to consider them sacred.
Basically that’s how people in the past explaining things that they don’t really understand. Water deities is particularly one of the richest forms of polytheism : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_deity
It’s much more makes sense this time, especially since it’s a non-imaginer super strong squids that could generate laser beams.
lol…this show’s been heading straight for the cesspool ever since the first pirate encounter…now we’re getting squid worshipers…this must be what it’ll feel like for the people 1000 years from now looking back at us, thoroughly dumbfounded by the idea of Christianity…i feel bad for ledo…and ridget’s kinda of bitch…
“hey guys, you know how we’ve always been living at the whims of gigantic squid monsters and this kid just showed up with his ridiculously op mech and pwned one of those squids? lets fucking ostracize him…and yeah, didn’t he save us a bunch of times and said he can annihilate us by himself? LETS FUCKING POINT A GUN AT HIM…” – inside ridget’s head
LOL
You do realize that if Ridget didn’t do that Ledo+The entire fleet most likely will get annihilated, right?
Jeez, it’s a colony of giant laser shooting squids that are currently pushing a whole army of mecha into a brink of extinction. Come back here if they are worshipping Cows or arguably imaginary beings, but that one is a REAL threat. Something that even Ledo can’t win alone, let alone gargantians. Ledo isn’t a Jesus Gundam or something with that level of capability.
You must give Ridget kudos for having the guts to point a gun at a guy who can destroy the entire fleet without effort.
One word from Ledo, and Chamber can turn her and her two sidekicks to dust before they can pull the trigger. Knowing that, she still pointed the gun at him, so kudos for her ^^;
This episode was very emotional, with Ledo falling back into his old soldier ways and all the misunderstandings.
First of let me say that I was really shocked how easily everything that was build up the last weeks
was destroyed in merely 20 minutes this time.
Ofcourse one can say this was to be expected because Ledo and the rest are literally from different worlds.
Where the people from Gargantia want to survive Ledo wants to destroy it is burned in his mind :
My mission is to destroy my enemies not to make peace with them.
I waited for the moment where Rigett of anyone would understand that Ledo is traumatized and brainwashed and would help
him understand that he should stop to wanting to destroy his enemy. Because on earth the Hideauze are not enemies.
Also the extra emotional layer this episode was Amy her way of trying to stop him made me almost shed some tears.
That scene were she tries to let Ledo remember that he is more than a soldier was very romantic I think clearly she starts to understand that here feelings for him are more that friendly.
I hope that Ledo will realize that he is an individual and that he doesn’t have to fight anymore like Amy’s little brother said.
But I fear that this show might be more realistic than my expectations and that Ledo will continue fighting until he can no longer go on.
This episode was gripping. Loved it, especially the end of it.
I never thought that Ledo really belonged on Gargantia. To hear that he will be leaving with Pinion sounds better for him. Even with Amy’s influence there are still traces of his soldier instincts that he will possibly never shake off, and seems to be the most comfortable when he’s piloting Chamber.
Love aspects of revenge in series’, too. Wonder what happened to Pinion’s brother to even say such.
Fleet Commander’s heart attack at the end. Wow. The plot thickens once again.