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「襲撃」 (Shuugeki)
“Attack”
As the newbies learn that teamwork is good (no shit guys), a major attack begins that could shake up this world.
The Power of Teamwork…Uh, No Shit?
Log Horizon is best when it takes the MMORPG concept into new directions at a very high level. It’s not so good when it’s acting like viewer’s first MMORPG. Look, I understand that not everyone has the in-depth MMO knowledge that those of us who have been playing RPGs for years do, but here’s the thing – you don’t have to tell a story for everyone. Log Horizon could have been, and probably should be, targeted at those who already know how MMORPGs work – those viewers who have the equivalent of Lv 90 knowledge. Yes they need to fill us in on how things work in this particular MMORPG, and that’s fine. What they shouldn’t do is waste time having characters learn lesson we all learned the first time we were level 10 in our first MMO.
That’s what I felt when the newbies were learning of the power of teamwork. I literally said aloud “Seriously?” I thought the arc of this plotline would be Minori learning to stand up and take some measure of command, not for them to realize they need to know what their party members’ abilities do. That’s Grouping 101! Plus it made me question what they were doing all those other days when they weren’t in their 3 hours (before failing out) of dungeon crawling. Minori learning to take control would have been interesting, but the characters learning that they need to talk just makes them all seem stupid, and I don’t like my protagonists to seem stupid. Not unless it’s funny ha ha stupid, which this was not.
Scribe & Problems
Getting back to the high level characters (briefly), I found Shiroe and Henrietta talking about Shiroe’s Scribe subclass fascinating for the possibilities it could lead to. Contracts, restraining orders, magical treasure maps, brand new spells…I don’t know what kind of magic documents Shiroe will be able to create, but the idea is fascinating. Mostly I just liked Henrietta teasing Shiroe about practicing to dance and, along a similar vein, Krusty making the princess fall for him. Shipping, shipping everywhere! Though Shiroe x Akatsuki still takes preference over the Shiroe x Akatsuki x Henrietta OT3, if only because I think it’s more likely. I’ll shut up about my romantic fantasies now, moving on.
Another nice moment was when Minori called up Shiroe and gave him a status report. The newbies aren’t my favorite characters – though more because of how they’re being used rather than my not liking them in particular – but I could totally see where Shiroe was coming from when the tiredness lifted in favor of an optimistic smile. Seeing someone you’ve taught stand up and become better for it is a wonderful thing, and nothing makes all your hard work seem more worth it.
Rudy the Dog, Rudy the Frien–Erh, What?
At first I thought Izusu was comfortable about Rudy because he’s a baka, but no, it’s because he’s an inu. As a dog lover in general and a golden retriever lover in particular, I WANT ONE!! A golden retriever who can blow things up on command, that is – his looks do me no good. I’m not sure if Isuzu is interested in becoming Rudy’s master (not like that, you perverts…or I don’t know, maybe. That’s their business), but let’s ignore that for now because there are bigger fish to fry. No, I’m not talking about all the Sahuagin, though them too. If Rudy can’t be added to Isuzu’s friend’s list, what does that mean? Sadly I’ve been spoiled on what it means (not your fault, totally mind…I spent a little too long on the Log Horizon wiki), so I won’t say anymore, but all the foreshadowing is in place. I’ll leave it up to you to connect the dots, though I don’t expect it will be long before they’ll be connected for you.
Looking Ahead – Attack of the Goblin King
I’m guessing this is an event from the new expansion? I’m not sure, but rather than a dungeon crawl showing me things I already knew, this looks like a good old fashion battle, and that sounds like a lot more fun to me.
tl;dr: @StiltsOutLoud – Teamwork is useful? Whoa! Sarcasm aside, foreshadowing, shipping, & inu-Rudy appear, + a wave of demi-human invaders. Charge! #loghorizon 15
Random thoughts:
- It was pretty slick how Minori used her “weakness” to get everyone talking. Smart, even if someone should have done that days ago.
- Extra points for Rudy – he may be a bit hot-headed and stupid, but he does apologize when he realizes he’s wrong, and of his own initiative too. That’s better than most people, even if he starts out stupider.
- Formation, operator, field monitor, patrol file…seems too complicated to me. Formation is good, but the rest is really just healer, lookout, and not walking like godsdamn idiots. Though considering how most MMORPG parties move through dungeons, maybe that last one is the most important one.
- Why does this healer have a knife and why is she in melee range wtf.
- Tohya is calling them Isuzu-neechan and Rudy-nii! It’s the small things I love.
- C’mon Marie-nee, even in a swimsuit and as a healer, you’re Lv 90. Melt their fuckin’ faces off.
- Oh shit, I just remembered. I usually try to pick blond male characters for my avatars because I am both blond and male. I-I have to make myself a Rudy avatar, don’t I? Ah screw it…wan wan!
Check out my blog about storytelling and the fantasy novel I’m writing at stiltsoutloud.com. The last four posts: Don’t break the chain, Nerds & the miracle of human consciousness, Urgency & the rush to come, and Explain yourself. My current combo counter: Writing chain, 0 day long. Editing chain, 0 days long. I suck again 🙁
Full-length images: 17.
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I feel bad for Rudy, but Isuzu does make a point, I can see the resemblance.
i have a feeling that ruby is a N..
P….
An NP. A New Player of course!
Show Spoiler ▼
I agree that the scenes with the lowbies are boring. They could have at least made it more interesting. I also don’t think the the target audience is that unfamiliar with MMOs either. There are quite a lot of them out there, and some of them very popular even. It kinda drags the anime down, which for the most part I really like btw. The characters themselves and their interactions luckily make up for it.
You realize and this goes for Stilts too, but this show airs at 5:30pm in Japan on NHK-e which is an education channel for preschool/elementary age kids. The show on immediately before Log Horizon is a preschool age show.
So yes the explanations might seem wearing to us but they are necessary at the target audience for that channel.
You’re not wrong, and yet most of the series prior to this hasn’t been treated like a kids show. It’s been toned down from the source material, yes, and they’ve certainly explained some mechanics and terms before, but the former is understandable and the latter has usually been pretty light, and as much about explaining how things work in this MMO as opposed to MMOs in general. If this was going to be a show that explained a lot of mechanics then they should have done that early on instead of 15 episodes in, when anyone who was confused about them would have long since stopped watching.
I think it was harsh criticizing the “noob” aspect of the show. But I guess that’s only because we are all MMO-veterans to a large extent and this familiarity with how MMOs work makes us as irritated with this segment of the episode as we would with any “noob” wanting explanations for game mechanics we’ve long accepted as “should have known by now”
The issue, I believe, is more that they didn’t do a good job of explaining the group’s mindset; esp. since it took what, 3? 4? Episodes just to show off how inept they are working as individuals rather than a team? Heck, they still haven’t even shown off just how capable Minori is as a team leader despite the last few “think 30 seconds ahead” bit.
This was a weaker episode imo compared to the previous ones but I guess that’s simply because the focus wasn’t on our evil strategist this week. Can’t wait for the huge battle next week!
Anyways here’s my theory on what might happen next:
Show Spoiler ▼
Show Spoiler ▼
The anime loves to give the fans a DETAILED hint lol
“C’mon Marie-nee, even in a swimsuit and as a healer, you’re Lv 90. Melt their fuckin’ faces off.”
“Why does this healer have a knife and why is she in melee range wtf.”
I’m glad I wasn’t the only one that had those thoughts…
You can be at the level cap and low level monsters do only scratch damage, but even scratch damage can kill you if there’s a couple hundred of the trash mob wailing on you. Remember she’s also a Cleric, offense isn’t her thing, plus she’s in swimwear, so she’s likely not equipped with her battle gear. Cut her some slack.
You got a point. My reaction was similar to the others at first, but your post reminded me about how things were back in the EQ days, wich is what this world is based on. Things were not that easy as a caster and even more so as a Cleric. Hardly any spells for up close self defence. The only real defence feature of the Cleric were that they could deck themselves in Plate armor, but that bikini is not a metal one.
The WoW and later era games are rather diffrent as no class is ment to be useless up close or in pvp.
Also fighting after the apocalypse involves actually swinging your arms and weapons rather than just clicking a button, so she might be able to punch them for loads of damage, but she probably isn’t mentally ready to try attacking loads of armed and armoured fish things.
Couple hundred? Try a couple of thousand!!! They are going to need an army of adventurers to stop those fishes. In the other hand, I suspect the prospect of fighting an entire army of monsters is going to make Krusty a very happy man. XD
To many Low Mobs can kill a Single High lvl Player… Imagine, they Interrupt your Spell casting or you Action. You will get in a Pinch…
Level growth seems to be linear instead of exponential, combined that with Everquest style mob difficulty and you see why Shiroe was congratulating Minori for her party defeating equal level monsters.
This means that those fishmen are still capable of hurting level 90 players despite being 50+ levels lower, add in the zerg rush factor and there you go.
Actually, you guys are right. The healer-in-melee-range-knifing-a-bitch comment still stands, especially when you factor in Everquest-style healers who just never do that shit, but when you also calibrate for Everquest-style mobs then Marie-nee being worried about them makes sense. Even naked she should have been able to absorb hits for a while without too much trouble, but in Everquest even low level mobs could make you fizzle, and I can’t even begin to explain how often that almost ended with me dying painfully.
Well, had I not played a Druid as my main. Snare are run away bitches! I was the original kiting master.
Probably inspired by the Cleric from the classic tabletop D&D, which wear heavy armor and bash all kind of heads.
Maybe it’s because I’ve been playing RO and Etrian Odyssey III/IV lately, but I am quite used to see frontline healers with high attack and above average defense.
Minori playing support and Izusu is aswell. I think the mob just got close and she went on the offensive to protect Izusu.
Mari-nee=Fan service
That’s the only role she has lol
Except she’s been covered in that dumb jacket for the past two episodes.
Well well, not be so Harsh on her…
I was a EQ raid Cleric. i was a Erudin Female Healer.
You must know, that the Erudin race was strong for being Wizards and other Class that Base around INT. Clerics heavily base on the WIS Skill. So i had a great Handicap from the Start. Without any WIS+ Gear i was Helpless. Only capable to cast 1 CH (Complete Heal). Clerics and special Raid Clerics needs their Gear. There Gear is their life assurance. Weak Body, but great Wisdom. That was Clerics in our EQ Time. Like the Wizards. Great Firepower, but weak Bodies. I call them Arty on 2 Legs.
So, here she was without Gear. And i bet these ones, could Kill her very Quickly. and dont forget, when you was Attacking 1 Enemy, there are 10+ Enemy’s that can attacking you. Yeah, ZERG Attacks kill anyone, how dont have AoE Attacks, and even there they could attack from the Flanks or Back.. In other Words, if you get Surrounded, Warping/Teleport out of the Pinch is you Life
A Wizard could have done more though, but without gear so would mana be really limited. It would actually have been a lot better to use low level spells, but most doesn’t keep those on their hotbars ready for casting.
I’m not sure what your issue is with the newbies. Every problem they’ve had so far was because they weren’t functioning as a team, but rather as a collection of individuals who happened to be in the same area. That was obvious to all of us. What Minori did was make it obvious to the rest of her group, but rather than take control and beat them over the head with it by telling them “you’ve all been doing it wrong, here’s how we should have been going about it” she approached it in a way that allowed everyone to figure it out for themselves. No one feels resentful, team spirit is maintained, and they are now capable of working together functionally. That, by the way, is one way to be a good leader. Kicking people’s butts into line when they aren’t learning isn’t the only way to take command. Minori did take command, but she did it so subtly that no one realized it, and no one resented her for doing it.
This was a job well done for a girl who’s modeling herself after Shiroe. She got her team to do what needed to be done without having to make waves. Manipulate people without letting them realize they’re being manipulated. She’s a good student.
I Agree. We all was “Newbies” at the Start
I don’t think its that they were newbies, its a redundancy for game mechanics being explained when you are familiar with MMO’s already.
I dont mind it since most of the newbies have no reason to know how MMO’s work and Elder Tales is based on an era when MMO’s were not casual friendly.
My problem was that it seemed coached towards viewers who are unfamiliar with MMORPG mechanics in general (where most everything before this seemed coached towards those already familiar with them), and because the fact that they never sat down and talked to each other up to this point made them seem like idiots. They kept failing out after 3 hours and only need to sleep probably 8, so what were they doing for the other 13 hours? None of them going “Hey, why is Rudy always getting agro? Let’s figure this out.” and not understanding basic mechanics was annoying. If this was on day 1 or 2 of the dungeon crawls then okay, but they made it seem more like day 6 of 7, at which point they all seem crazy for having never tried something new in the face of all their failure.
Explaining what a guild is? What a dungeon is? What quests are? What NPCS are? The show has spent plenty of time catering to the uninitiated. Since our newbie team here counts as “the uninitiated” as well, I think it makes reasonably good sense to cater to them in this way.
Also remember, they are trapped in this world; they aren’t playing a game. When you or I or anyone plays an MMO, we can look up information online about how to most effectively play our class, how to most effectively play with other classes, builds, what spells and skills and so on do, dungeon maps, monster capabilities, etc. etc. The only way for them to know was to sit down the way they did this time and talk with each other, and Rudy and Tohya both prevented that from happening in the past. In the beginning they were all about “guts/willpower,” then after losing a few times they went on about hwo they weren’t skilled enough, but every time they were too focused on their own conclusions to looking for another reason as to why things weren’t working.
Also, do remember what Isuzu learned about Rudy has likely influenced his background. He likely has less experience with treating this as a game, and more reason to try to prove himself as an individual.
Granted on your first point, but those took very little time. I can accept them taking 1 minute to give blunt exposition on what a guild is, but when they devote half the episode, I get a little more cross.
Also, I understand that they need to talk things over, my problem is that the big change was something they should have been doing during their ~13 free hours any of the days previously where they failed. Once again, not doing something as obvious as “talk to your teammates” makes them seem negligent, which I don’t enjoy.
It’s not like they were completely silent all the time when they weren’t in the dungeon, although I expect they did spend a fair amount of time brooding. The issue is that until they had this specific conversation, talking with each other wouldn’t change anything. And until now, they had no reason to have this conversation.
I think your MMO background is poisoning your perspective on this issue. These kids are not long-term gamers. They had no reason to arrive at the conclusion that the issue was due to them mismatching their skill-use, and that a conversation that went over everyone’s skills and capabilities in elaborate detail would solve their problem. You know that having that information is helpful because you’ve played these types of games before. You expect everyone to know it, or to be able to figure it out, because it’s basic knowledge to you. But it’s not basic knowledge to people who are completely new to the concepts. If Minori hadn’t brought this up, these kids would never have had this conversation. Not because they’re stupid, but because it is not something that would occur to them that they needed to do.
It seems to me that you are being uncharacteristically and (I believe) unnecessarily judgemental of these children. They are doing the best they know how. To condemn them just because they don’t think the way you believe you would in their situation… well, they are not you. You have different experiences from them, and thus you think differently. It is unfair to expect them to be you.
I may be judgmental about these kids, but it’s not because of my MMO background. It’s simple problem solving – if something isn’t working, try to fix it! They kept doing the same thing, bashing their heads against a wall without talking when, in a group situation – not just a game, but in any group situation, school or work most definitely included – the first inclination of most anybody is to talk the problem over with the people they have to work with. That they never did that until now is the thing I judge them for.
In short, I don’t blame them for not knowing what they don’t know until they talked about it. That needed to happen. I blame them for failing repeatedly because they didn’t do what they finally did here much earlier.
No, I’m with Stilts, the newbies we’re boring. It overly explained simple things, and it did so in a fashion that made them look dumb.
As said in the review, we all thought that this arc was about Minori growing up a bit and becoming the mini-shiroe of the newbies. Learning to take charge. But instead we get a group feels session where they all talk about what they ‘like’ about their skills. I don’t know about you, but I’ve never told anyone what I ‘like’ about my skills. They are skills. SOme are more effective than others in some situations, use those.
Furthermore, I’ve come to the conclusion that my problem with the newbies is they’re stereotypical. ONe of the things everyone likes about this show is the leads are well-traveled capable adults with unusual classes and personalities for an anime.
The kids are not.
If this were any other anime, the kids would be the main characters. Lead guy with a big sword and a rival/friend who’s the magician. A few various girly-girls to heal and support while reminding everyone to talk about their feelings. And so on. They’re not BAD characters, they’re just not unusual in anime. Which is why they’re all infinitely better when mixed in with the adult characters (Minori’s report to Shiroe was her best scene). Leaving them by themselves just highlights how completely blah they are. Rudy is slowly proving himself the best of them IMO, just do to his layers. He’s arrogant, but hard-working, willing to admit when he’s wrong, etc, etc.
They did talk about it. We saw them do so at least once before, and I rather doubt it was the only time. Tohya simply jumped the conversation to the wrong conclusion before Minori could speak up.
They had conversations, and they obviously tried to figure out what they were doing wrong. It simply wasn’t going to do them any good until they had this conversation. And they had no way of knowing that they needed to have this conversation. Minori was the only one who knew, and people kept interrupting her when she tried to speak up. “Let’s make a complete list of our capabilities” is not a logical follow-up to “what are we doing wrong?” At least not in the eyes of a newbie group who doesn’t realize that the interactions of those abilities are fundamental in combat survival.
Are you getting what I’m trying to say? They certainly tried to work out what was going wrong: we saw them trying to figure it out. The problem was that they couldn’t find the real answer without prompting, and the only person who could prompt them kept being prevented from doing so.
@KaleRyan
You seem to have missed the entire point of that conversation. What Minori was attempting to determine, and what she succeeded in determining, is what made that spell useful so that Rudy kept using it rather than a different one. Damage, casting time, cooldown, all that kind of information. The details that determine how a skill interacts with the skills the rest of the team is using. Tohya quickly picked up on the fact that Rudy’s current use of orb of lava was a hazard to the team, which was the point Minori was trying to make.
Minori spent that entire conversation manipulating the team into figuring out what they were doing wrong without outright telling them they’d been screwing things up, and without stepping in and taking outright control. She did exactly what she should have been doing as Shiroe’s apprentice. The fact that you apparently didn’t even realize she was doing it any more than her teamates did means she managed to outsmart you as well.
I get what you’re saying, I just don’t buy the idea that, for example, Tohya would never do something as simple as explain taunt mechanics to Rudy before now. If none of them really understood them, sure, makes sense, but Tohya knew how important taunting was and he knew Rudy kept pulling aggro. It’s that blatant lack of communication that makes them look foolish to me.
But we’re going to have to agree to disagree, because while I understand where you coming from, I just don’t agree, and I expect you feel the same. Plus I have other writing I need to do ^^
@Wanderer:
First off, there’s no reason to be rude. I’m well aware of your interpretation of the scene, and even see where you got that idea. Here’s the thing. I disagree.
I don’t think Minori manipulated anyone. For a number of reasons. 1. She’s not manipulative. 2. It’s not necessary to the scene.
Shiroe manipulated the guild leaders to found the round table because they would not have done it if he just asked. The newbies on the other hand, don’t need to be manipulated. The show has beat us over the head with the fact that they’re actually nice, hard-working people who just have bad party synergy/tactic/etc. All they needed was for someone to point that out. Which she did.
My complaint is not that she did this. My complaint is how it was presented. It was not presented as a shy little girl growing up and learning to take charge or something of that sort. It was presented as a shy little girl teaching them all the power of friendship and feelings and whatnot. Minori is no different now than she was before except she has a few more friends.
She did grow. Several times Rudy questioned her and confronted her in ways that would have sent her quietly apologizing into silence in previous episodes, and she stood up to him firmly to accomplish her goal. She took command of the group, in a subtle fashion, but still command, which she never had the courage to do before. The fact that her strength manifested in ways suited to her personality resulting in them talking things through as friends rather than her becoming some sort of drill sergeant kicking their butts into line or whatever you think she should have done (hypothetical example) does not mean she didn’t grow. She grew and become stronger while still remaining Minori.
You are overlooking her growth simply because it didn’t happen in the direction you think it should have happened in. That is unfair and insulting to her.
I think you not note that for one character in special, Rudy, that concepts will be hard to grasp. Show Spoiler ▼
The other players too appear have no clues about how groups work, Minori and Toya just started to play ET before the Apocalypse, I fear it is the same for the other two.
So, they all are complete n00bs…
@Wanderer:
I’m not ignoring her growth because it wasn’t what I wanted. I’m ignoring her growth because it was minimal and boring. You seem to be confusing ‘possible’ and ‘interesting.’ What happened in this episode is not impossible. It’s perfectly possible that a group of people could go through this sequence of events. That doesn’t mean it’s well done or entertaining. It also doesn’t mean it’s what people want to see.
As MANY people have mentioned in the response to this episode, a lot of this show’s popularity comes from the intelligence and competence of its lead characters. People LIKE that Shiroe is a smart strategist guy. Nearly everyone thought Minori was going to take charge and become something a bit more like him. Instead, we got more of her being a cutesy little girl basically. A slightly more confident cutesy little girl, but the same basic type nonetheless. Minori is, quite frankly, my least favorite character on the show so far. And nothing in this episode changed that. I don’t hate her or anything. She’s just not interesting. This was her chance to become more, and for me and apparently many others, they botched it. She’s still just not interesting.
@Kale
We have our own taste and I am ok with your complaint about how Minori’s character development doesn’t meet your expectation. Not sure if I’m the majority but whatever I don’t really care. I like how Minori character development was handled in this episode. We have to agree to disagree here.
@Stilts
Cultural difference maybe? The Japanese (to some extend, us Asian as well) tend to keep the problem to themselves, sometime with disastrous consequences.
Y’know, ‘The Ethnic Theory of Plane Crashes’ thing, something like that.
Teamwork is overrated. I have teammates at work. They are unproductive and lazy and I suffer as a result.
That’s not teamwork. That’s the absence of teamwork.
My point is that I would be better off alone at a smaller account.
Well, in a situation where you don’t need more than one person, sure it’s fine to be alone. Since you don’t actually know the value of the people who might end up with you you might prefer to be alone. But in a situation where there is too much for one person to handle, teamwork is important. A good team has everyone performing their function to the best of their ability, resulting in a whole that is gnerally more effective than just the sum of its parts. A bad team can be notably less effective than the sum of its parts, as the various parts interfere with each other. It sounds like your problem isn’t teamwork itself, but rather just that the parts you’ve got making up the rest of your team are not performing their function properly.
Yes I am trying to word this rather generally so that it can (hopefully) apply to both your situation and the episode. We don’t need to get into a full-blown off topic discussion here.
You can go do things alone, just don’t get burn-out.
I played EQ for a few months back in the day (~2001) and was never a huge fan of games where different classes have specific roles to play. My MMO of choice was Asheron’s Call where there was no strict class system. In certain fights it would be beneficial to designate someone as a debuffer or healer but for the most part we would just plow through a dungeon guns blazing (metaphorically speaking, there were no guns…). Also virtually anyone could assume the role of healer/debuffer because everyone had the life magic skill so the same person wasn’t relegated to healer role on every single quest. That kind of flexibility is why I stuck with AC for so long.
Peek into FF14… You can Play all Class and Jobs you want, with only your Main Char
the trinity model (Tank-Healer-damage dealer) is the most common on RPGs tho…not the best… just the most common.
That can be fun sometimes, but I find that when everyone can do everything, all distinction loses its meaning. If everyone can DPS, tank, and heal, what’s the point in specializing? Why am I the class I am rather than one of those other ones? It’s all about flavor of the abilities at that point, and that doesn’t entertain me as much.
On the other hand, when there are things you can do that no other class can do, you become valuable, and they become valuable to you. You all work together doing what you’re best at, and become greater than the sum of your parts through specialization and teamwork. And that’s what I always loved about MMO’s, when I had more time to play them – accomplishing something amazing that one of you could only dream of doing alone.
When you can all do the same things, it doesn’t feel like that anymore. It’s more like you’re just zerging a challenge down. That’s not as fun to me.
The problem with the trinity model is, for a lot of people, you are only able to do it for a small moment of your life. It increases wait time exponentially and for a lot of people, that becomes much harder as you’re older.
When you’re the right age and you have the time. It can be great. But for a lot of young adults with new responsibilities it’s just too much commitment to a game. Case in point, I got FFXIV when it (re)launched this year, and I loved it. It was classic, I was a tank, it was great. But as I neared the level cap, it became clear how much time it was going to require for me to even really take part in the endgame content, so I had to let it go. I still see screenshots once in a while and think ‘maybe…’ but no, I don’t have the time.
The more casual setup allows me to actually play the game without sacrificing my responsibilities. But you definitely do lose something important in the transition.
Totally agree. I’ve mostly given up playing MMOs for similar reasons. That doesn’t mean you don’t lose something by giving up that specialization, just as you said, it’s just that sometimes you have to give it up to play anything at all.
Basically, both types of games are fine, I just have great fondness for MMOs that encourage specialization, even if I don’t get to play them as much anymore.
I agree with KaleRylan
With growing older, Time is become more Precious to us Adults. When we was Young and only had School things in our Mind. We had all Time of the World, but when we began to surpass our “Golden Time”, Time is our Treasure
Even i sometimes aching for these Times. But now, i have Responsibility for me and on my Shoulders of others. Right now i only have 2-4 Hours for these Old Times Games. And the Weekends, but even there your Life goes on as Adult
But fear not, this is the Negative Side for Full time Players
While i also found the newbies part iffy at times, it does make a point though between the new generations of mmorpg players and the older ones.
Back then, stuff was nintendo hard. Your class had certain roles it could fulfill, and only up to certain points, and learning not only what the rest of the classes on your group could do but also what the people playing them could do with those classes was important. Back to the Everquest examples, it was like going on a dungeon crawl and suddendly realizing your druid healer was actually spec’ed on dps, and knew little to nothing about how to keep alive a group.
Nowadays, most games make all classes jack of all trades. You don’t have a healer? No problemo! your tank can heal hiself!. Wait, did i say tank? We don’t need no tank, the wizard can tank!…
I can see the need of the author in making emphasis on old class roles and playing roles so the WoW+ generation could get a grasp on it… but still could have been showcased with a bit less dialogue i guess.
In any case, we get back to stuff next week. And some West Wind Brigade to add up…
Its the casualization of MMO’s, why do you need a group when you can do everything on your own.
If you ever grouped with a Druid who was spec’d DPS, you should kill that Druid on the spot and spread their bones around as a lesson. Back when I played EQ I was spec’d healing like a proper Druid! Even if our shitty half-CH’s were still shitty compared to Cleric’s ;_;
o.O
<- Was a EQ Raid Cleric…
Well we used mostly our Druids for many Things. This Class was an All rounder. DOTs the Enemy, Play Taxi, Give us Run speed, and some Battle defense. Where Clerics was there only for Healing and Strong Defense Buffs… Druids had more Abilities that make them precious in Battles
Oh, and in the beginning. Clerics was the Only ones, that could resurrection. After a some Time, other Classes with Heal abilities, earn a Resurrection Light (You get revived, but without get back some Exp). Where the Clerics stay only there for Healing and Reviving Allys…
Yeah, I mainly ended up spot healing non-tanks, which was nice because that’s where I was actually really helpful. (The nuking on occasion was just for fun.) And I don’t think I ever cast my rez spell once they finally gave me one, not when there were epic Clerics about to take care of that for me ^^
Thank god for Minori, she finally brought everyone together as a team xD
Rudy gosh you really a dog but I wonder why he couldn’t be added D: Something is definitely fishy here.
Speaking of fish, I hope we see Shoryu kick some ass.
Rudy’s friend list is full!
“Rudy gosh you really a dog but I wonder why he couldn’t be added”
Rudy is a dog.
Dogs are pets.
Pets can’t be added to friend’s list and is on the pat’s list instead.
Hence Rudy can’t be added to friend’s list and is on the pat’s list instead.
Also proven by his third equipment. http://imgur.com/PNraEOV
>pat
I meant “pet” of course.
I’m guessing with him not being able to be added to a friend list and with how things have been a little… off, Rudy is an NPC or some other phenomenon.
He just secretly blocked isuzu for adding him on FR list XD
I like to see if their options menu includes ‘block friendship requests’.
But how can he be an NPC if he knows this sandwich from the real world D:
The LN explain it better, but that sandwich shop was found in ET world not on earth.
Was it me or did the dungeon run this episode have some of the best combat animation so far?
Dat cat plushie.
I know, right? Serara-chan is so cute :3
I totally missed the cat plushie. Where?
Everytime you see Serara in her sleeping bag.
She doesn’t have enough gold to pay a crafter to make a Nyanta dakimakura
fruity tooty must be a npc gone rogue somehow and he doesnt even realize it. thats the only friends list explanation i can think of.
As for why that healer was in melee range striking is because she is a kannagi (shrine maiden) so they are also capable of using staff, katana, magical devices and bows. Guess the WoW equivalent is a shaman so they can spec for pure healing at range or go a hybrid with melee. No idea what Minori is though. Not exactly a spoiler so it is fair to say that there are kannagi who work at melee while off-healing.
Though… honestly I am also confused where she got the sword from -_-.
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Adding to this, LN makes a offhand remark that Kannagi have some samage spells. It happened just before Shouryuu was contacted by Marie and was cut due to time restraints (sadly)
Also, having Minori use katana to help take down lone mobs outside of the tank’s range makes a lot of sense to me:
– First of all, they have 2 healers, out of who Minori is admittedly somewhat worse. Why have 2 healers do double duty when 1 is enough?
– Secondly, Minori’s spells hould be mostly used before battle (pointed out by her and our very own stilts 2 episodes ago), so she doesn’t have that much to do during battle, so she can easily help with other things.
– Also, their party lacks in DPS. AFAIK only Rudy is one. On top of that, they’re 1 member short from full party. Of course the ones with ability to deal some chip damage would help around.
– Finally, what she did was help take down an archer, which Tooya wouldn’t be able to taunt because of bad range. It’s not like she divided into a bunch of monsters, she helped to take down those outside of that bunch, making Rudy and Tohya’s job easier (also help Rudy save MP, since he could finish the mob with 1 spell thanks to chip damage)
Admittedly part of the fault here lies with the anime for not explaining the classes in full detail.
Though… honestly I am also confused where she got the sword from -_-
Where do you normally get items in MMORPGs?
Monster drops, your own bag or by trading (and market but we know she didn’t go there).
My money would be on loaning from Tohya.
I like what you were driving at. Minori was the “wild card”. The most flexible one in the team having to play multiple roles at every phase in the encounter.
Samurais are dps tanks in the vein of DKs I believe, and Bards CAN be dps I believe, but I would assume they’re all such low levels that they’re not truly speced for anything yet. I mean 24 or so out of 90 with an exp growth curve is a drop in the bucket. So they’re not exactly without DPS, but yeah, doesn’t change the fact that Kannagi’s seem designed as an off-healer.
Frankly, the best comparison seems to be maybe old-school paladins. Off-heals, barriers, and some damage/apparently melee.
Sorry if you didn’t get what I mean, I was referring to her equipment set during that time of the story. I know later she gets more gear but at that state of the story she was only using a staff.
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Samurais are dps tanks in the vein of DKs I believe, and Bards CAN be dps I believe, but I would assume they’re all such low levels that they’re not truly speced for anything yet. I mean 24 or so out of 90 with an exp growth curve is a drop in the bucket. So they’re not exactly without DPS, but yeah, doesn’t change the fact that Kannagi’s seem designed as an off-healer.
Well, what I meant was that Rudy was basically the only dedicated DPS, since Tohya was acting as tank and bards, while apparently capable of DPSing on the side, are still more about their support abilities.
Sorry if you didn’t get what I mean, I was referring to her equipment set during that time of the story. I know later she gets more gear but at that state of the story she was only using a staff.
I wouldn’t use the 3 pieces of equipment given in the LNs as the only equipment these characters have. (For example, if we go by “they only use what the LNs chapter beginnings show” Marie doesn’t have a weapon at lvl. 90…) More like, those are their favorite/most used ones, but their sets probably shouldn’t be limited to that.
I was sort of just discussing. Sorry if it came off as argumentative. I actually enjoy that this (fake) mmo seems to have a fairly versatile class system. Makes me wish I could play the game.
@KaleRylan – FYI, Bards are not a good DPS class. Assassins, Swashbucklers and Sorcerers are the best DPS classes AFAIK. Monks are probably decent DPS builds as well. Samurai skill cool-downs are too long for true DPS, and Guardians are designed to tank rather than DPS (that class is the best for tanking). Bards are a jack of all trades class. They have some melee capability go to along with some support type spells. It’s not designed as a DPS class. Sure you could try to go that route, but you’d be better off picking another class than going against the grain.
@daikama:
I know, like I said above I was mostly just discussing. They’ve got a lot of off-dps classes while Rudy is the only ‘true’ dps class. That said, I stand by my statement that they’ve made pretty clear samurai is a dps-tank, like the DK from WoW, or the Warrior from FFXIV (which is what I played, love that class). So while it’s DPS doesn’t compare to an assassin or sorcerer, it is significantly better than something like a Guardian which is a straight mitigation tank. Again, like the Warrior.
And one of the things I like about this show is the lack of emphasis on people playing the ‘best’ classes. Shiroe explicitly plays an unpopular class, and several of the primary characters use odd builds, like Krusty being a guardian that uses a giant two-handed axe.
@KaleRylan:
I’m at a bit of a disadvantage here since I haven’t played WOW or FF. In terms of your basic Warrior class, using Dragon Age Origins (DAO) for comparison, the Weapon and Shield Warrior build reminds me of Log Horizon’s Guardian class while the Two Handed Weapon Warrior build reminds me of the Samurai class. However, the Two-Handed Weapon Warrior build isn’t really a DPS character build IMO. It’s more of a “one-shot” (not literally) damage build. Skills + two-handed weapons = big damage numbers per hit (it’s the easiest Warrior build to get DAO’s “Heavy Hitter” achievement = 250+ damage in one hit by PC), but attack/weapon speed is slow and skills have relatively long cool-downs.
I agree that the Samurai had better DPS statistically than a Guardian and is still able to tank. In DAO, I typically use Alistair (Weapon and Shield build) as my primary “tank”, but switch to Oghren (Two-Handed Weapon build) during the “A Paragon of Her Kind” quest (which is very long). Oghren isn’t as good of a “tank”, but he does the job and does significantly more damage per hit than Alistair (i.e. Oghren statistically has higher DPS than Alistair). Even so, IMO Oghren (or similar character builds) is not a “DPS” type character/build – “tank” or otherwise.
I don’t consider the Samurai class a DPS class/build in the same way I don’t consider the Kannagi class as a “DPS-Healer”. Granted the latter a bit of an extreme example, but my point is that you can make a relative “DPS” comparison for any class/build which (IMO) doesn’t always fit with the DPS concept. From the Log Horizon wiki: “Most of the Samurai’s skills have a long cool down period (generally 5–10 minutes); as a result, each can only be used once or twice per battle…” I don’t see that as a DPS build. I consider that a “heavy-hitter” build like a Two-Handed Warrior build in DAO. IMO, for Log Horizon a Monk is probably the closest class/build to a “DPS-tank”.
– …a dps-tank, like the DK from WoW, or the Warrior from FFXIV (which is what I played, love that class).
BTW, I’m all for “DPS-tank” builds. By far my favorite build for DAO is what I call a “true tank” build (RL tanks do have that big cannon in the front after all = a “true tank” has high offensive power to go along with all that armor). So for DAO, either a DW dagger Warrior or DW Warrior using full size weapons. The former, if done right, “tanks” as well as any build in the game when you factor armor + evasion and still has close to the highest melee DPS of any build. I found DW daggers kind of boring visually so I did the latter build on my third play-through. Doesn’t “tank” quite as well (lower evasion), but definitely good enough. Besides, I don’t play as the primary party “tank”. My role is to kill stuff – fast. 😀 Rip through enemies like a scythe cutting down wheat. 😉
Your DAO comparison is actually a really good one. Though frankly, the 2h warrior in DAO probably has BETTER dps than the samurai as it actually is meant to be a fairly straight dps build for the warrior rather than a tank build.
If you haven’t played an MMO with a DPS-Tank they’re a bit hard to explain. It doesn’t mean they’re a dps class and a tank. It means the way they hold aggro is by doing damage. They tend to have less taunts than a mitigation tank like a guardian (or paladin in FFXIV) and they’re taunts aren’t as high in aggro, but they do damage to make up the difference. Unlike a guardian who does next to nothing, something like a samurai or a DK or Warrior actually does appreciable damage. It might only be 60% of a ‘true’ dps class, but compared to a guardian/paladin’s 30%, it’s a lot more.
“Log Horizon could have been, and probably should be, targeted at those who already know how MMORPGs work – those viewers who have the equivalent of Lv 90 knowledge.”
Just a note that this show is being broadcast by NHK-E on prime time, so it’s not geared to that audience. If anything, the target audience is the same as those who watch Pokemon.
And yet everything before this has been directed more at an MMO-savvy audience rather than MMO newbies. If this were not the case then they would have been explaining core mechanics like these in painstaking detail many episodes ago, not at the start of the 2nd cour. Yes they did some of that, but not too much, hence my point.
Somehow I doubt the mostly political drama with the hero who can’t even fight and action every 4 or so episodes is actually aimed at the pokemon crowd. Frankly, I think they’re explicitly going for an all-ages audience. There’s a bit of stuff for everyone.
IMO the pokemon crowd are usually older than the call of duty crowd just sayin
Lol, I can’t argue with that, considering I bought Pokemon X. Though I haven’t watched the anime since I was a kid.
Form the Log Horizon Wiki
Interesting. Good to know!
That is interesting. Though as I mentioned somewhere above I highly doubt the newbies have builds at all yet. If you think of low-levels in old MMOS, and even a lot of modern ones, you can generally do a bit of everything that your class is capable of. It’s usually at higher levels that you start specializing more in one branch or another.
It would be kind of fun if she eventually built this way though. I always enjoy non-standard builds.
Late to the discussion :/ Glad to see that someone posted an explanation on the Kannagi character class. It’s essentially a more battle oriented “healer”/support type class. It’s not a good “pure healer” build – you don’t get as good of spells in that regard (which is why Serara is so much better than healing than Minori even disregarding any difference in main class levels). The Kannagi spells are “prevention” oriented rather than “cure”, and in exchange, you get better melee combat ability. IIRC, it’s the only “healer class” than can use bladed weapons (even some swords).
I put it in the same category as a bard – more “jack of all trades” than master of any one particular area. Doesn’t make it a bad class, you just have to adjust play accordingly.
Note that while most western audience will have basic familiarity and knowledge about MMORPGs, this isn’t necessary the case with Japanese audience, which necessitate the MMO Mechanics explanation.
Most eastern MMOs came out from Korea (and China and Taiwan to some extend), which then exported to Japan. Most of these MMOs are played on PC, while the Japanese are REALLY into their console game, so their exposure to MMOs are lesser than most of us might expect.
I disagree with stilts here (something I’ve found to rarely happen):
I found the newbies dungeon crawling really nice. Sure, it’s not Shiroe’s badassery level awesome, but I like how LH puts focus on all sides of surviving in the game.
(For the record, I’ve played some MMORPGs. Not much, but tried out and got maybe middle level in several. So while I don’t have lvl 90 knowledge, I would say I have lvl 40-50 knowledge)
Anyways, if this was normal MMORPG, I would agree that they were stupid. Actually, I agree that they were stupid in not paying attention to aggroing and stuff, but that’s what happens when newbies go into dungeon for the first time. And I’ve never seen newbies get these things unless someone explains them.
Also, I’ve never seen parties going “okay lets review everyone’s skills”. Sure everyone knows (or at least should know) which class tanks, which heals and which is DPS, but actually knowing what is the likely skill for someone to use at a given time, what are all the random buffs the other classes have, what range their taunts have, etc.? Maybe on the higher levels I never had patience to reach, but definitely not during your first dungeons.
(also they can’t check online guides, and checking the buffs from status windows during actual battles is kind of hard)
Like I said above, I don’t fault them for having the conversation – in the absence of the internet, they needed to have it eventually. Nor do I fault them for screwing up, because darwin knows I’ve done plenty of that, in games and elsewhere (especially elsewhere). What I fault them for is taking so long to do some basic problem solving about why they were continually failing.
Your view is totally valid by the way, just clarifying my own : )
Sorry about that. If I had read coments more thoroughly, I wouldn’t have misunderstood your point. Now I understand your point, although I still disagree with it.
But hey, opinions are what makes us individuals =)
I agree on some level. I think we’re basically supposed to believe that these are 5 people who have never played an MMO before, and have no older siblings, relatives, or friends to show them the ropes.
I’m fine with that. It could happen. Personally I didn’t like how they went about it. I love the adult characters in this because they’re thinkers and logical people. Instead of that, this struck me as very ‘power of friend-shippy’ and I’m not a big fan of that. I liked it better once they were in the dungeon and they made clear that they had actually discussed tactics. The ‘what do you like about your skills’ thing just seemed derp-y to me.
The anime just forget to remind you that Forest of Lagranda (the dungeon’s name) is actually a hard dungeon challenge for level 20~30. That normal everyday cooperation aren’t going to cut it.
They also decide to not mention that after their talk & some open-field training together the newbies now have an almost complete understanding of not only their own skills & what they do but each others skills too.
The lack of emphasis on outdoor training is exactly what annoyed me. That’s why I thought last week that Minori wanted them to wait to enter. I figured she was going to say we need to train or something like that (there’s even a post on the last review about it). And then they just HIGHLY emphasize the ‘we need to be friends’ aspect of it while just ALLUDING to the fact that they had to have trained when it jumps to the dungeon and they all know their roles suddenly.
I would have much preferred them swapping the emphasis here. Show them training, and imply it gets them to be better friends.
LN also doesn’t seems to describe much in the exact details scene by scene on how the training activity goes. It kind of gloss over and move on to the dungeon where it was mentioned a bit. So I guess it’s the writer’s fault here.
Warning: If you don’t want to be spoiled, don’t read any Log Horizon wiki, period. Even just glancing at the character descriptions gives away stuff.
That’s actually exactly how I spoiled myself >_< Damn character pages!
Yeah, same. It doesn’t help that that’s all there is on the wiki so far.
Forgot to say in my above comment:
Oh shit, I just remembered. I usually try to pick blond male characters for my avatars because I am both blond and male. I-I have to make myself a Rudy avatar, don’t I? Ah screw it…wan wan!
FREAKING YES!
Although Kumagawa winning is pretty epic as well and his happy crying face suits your image IMO
Have to agree this episode was weaker compared to last week, but then cannot expect revelations every time LH comes on 😛 The MMORPG mechanic breakdown is certainly annoying, but I think the primary reason here is how the episode was focused on that and not the interactions between Shiroe & friends and the People of the Land elite. IMO it works much better as a quick intro information blurb from Shiroe or as a side moment in between princess gaming or Council doings rather than the main focus.
At least next week we get back on track per say, although the only thing I could think with all the fish coming ashore (seriously look like WoW murlocs) is that someone is testing them. Besides that I hate Rudy. Nothing grates on my nerves more than a pompous a*ss combined with a sheer lack of subtly. Ironically I can see the dog too for he reminds me of my family’s Jug (pug jack russell terrier cross). Overly hyper, demands love all the time, considers himself the centre of the world. Yupp that’s Rudy.
I actually don’t mind Rudy now as they’ve shown that while he’s arrogant, he’s also a hard-worker and willing to admit when he’s wrong.
Rudy is one of the best characters from story, soon you understand why….
Ahh finally… nxt episode doesn’t focus w/ the newbie lol
It seems the B-Team finally got their act together. It would be nice if people I party with in PvE Quese would watch this first half, then maybe we wouldn’t get wiped all the time LOL.
I liked how this really does fill in people on MMO battles and how strategy is central in raids.
Hmm seems the Rudy x Izusu ship is budding. Its a nice pairing. ROTFL A GOLDEN RETRIEVER So cute hahaha XP But well, Rudy is a Lander, while it was heavily hinted last episode, it’s been revieled now. Mysteries!
Anyways this episode seems to be a setup for the next few episodes. It seems that it will be filled with the action that everyone has been waiting for. Can’t wait to see them. 😛
I actually am liking to see the attack of the Sauguhin. Its truly different seeing the scope of it this way.
I’d like to remind the older players criticizing the newbie party for re-discovering the power of teamwork(and the abilities of each other) that THESE ARE NEWBIES!
Remember how you guys played you first RPG? What were the fundamentals you learned? Did you guys already started making epic moves from the get go? Seriously guys.
Anyway let me go back fangirling over Rudy x Isuzu. This episode might meant Isuzu doesn’t see Rudy as a guy yet, but I have seen plenty of literature and life to know friendship between a guy and a girl can evolve into something more.
So… Rudy x Isuzu OTP 4 LYF XDXDXDXDXDXDXDXDXD
I repeat, my qualm was not that they were screwing up or didn’t know these things – though I don’t think it benefited the story in general to focus on newbies, that’s not those characters’ fault in the least – it’s that they took so long to do the basic problem solving of “Okay, what are we doing wrong, and how can we do better next time?”
“Okay, what are we doing wrong, and how can we do better next time?”
I can understand where you are coming from with this sentiment but I think there are some things to consider regarding Minori’s group.
They are generally all around the same age, which is to say quite young and relatively inexperienced in life – never mind the game-turned-reality. Then there is the Japanese tendency to avoid focusing on not being a burden to the group, leading more to the notion of “what am I doing wrong?” rather than “what are we doing wrong?”. Add in what has to be the still disconcerting feeling of actual combat and it really doesn’t seem that far fetched it took this long for them to truly come together as a group.
It is not uncommon for teams (in any aspect) to take some time to actually build synergy even when there is someone that steps up and asks the right questions. Team communication is something that even professionals find themselves sometimes forgetting. How much more so for kids?
There is also the fact that Minori’s team, despite the difficulties they’ve experienced, have not wiped. Regardless of almost dying, they have had some measure of success – if only just barely. Sometimes, it takes total defeat and failure to bring about the necessary motivation for a reassessment of strategy.
That’s also because they’re newbies. Also party formation involves discovery of the abilities the other classes have and is part of intermediate learning about the game.
I usually don’t expect newbies to figure out a lot of things on their own, or as fast as older players do. Especially if they’re kids ages 16 below.
Good points, especially RifuloftheWest’s one about them all assuming it was something THEY were doing wrong as an individual rather than them all as a group. When you go back and remember Rudy’s early morning solo practice, that holds extra weight.
You too need remember that for one character, Rudy, that concepts will be harder to explain because Show Spoiler ▼
Funny story: First time I played an RPG (Breath of Fire, SNES), my brother and I didn’t understand you had to EQUIP items. We thought just having the item meant you were using it. So we ground levels like mad. By the time we actually equipped stuff, we had almost finished the game and were so over-leveled that switching our dagger and tunic to the flame sword and whatever armor made us completely destroy everything.
So I do appreciate dumb newbie mistakes. The thing is though, as much as I like this show, I just don’t feel like this part was written very interestingly. It was boring for me and it made the characters look naive at best and kind of dumb at worst.
In the novel this part is actually very good, its just bad translation to anime & not the writer fault.
In the novel, it felt like they’re spe-op troops with magic & swords. But the anime makes them out like clueless noob that finally knows what teamwork means.
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the Murloc, erm, Sahuagin invasion actually made me remeber THIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQcU_U4-1l0
mmmmrrrrgggmmmlllll!!!!
To be honest, in every online game I play sadly teamwork seems to be in VERY short supply. The proverial n00b often does not only not provide good value to the team, but often does things that actually put the party in danger, usually by the reason of not “reading the manual”. In fact the moderately good – and really good – players are usually actually a minority!
The episode does highlight a very important issue, namely players getting to know other teammates strengths, weaknesses, preferences in combat techniques and simply quirks.
Consider the Samurai taunts: they are very short ranged, which means once a mob gets outside of the immediate vicinity of the tank, it is hard to regain the aggro. And Rudy considers as important factors like damage output of the Lava Orb, but even he is quick to understand that this can be counterproductive in some situations, once the team sits down to talk the tactics. As the old military adage says, if you fail to plan, then you plan to fail!
Our newbies took so long to do the right things simply because they thought what was sufficient for solo grind in basic areas would carry them through the dungeon, and, there was no strong leader to talk some sense into them until Minori got her decision.
One thing that made me “huh?” was when Rudy was impossible to get into friendlist… is the game system deteriorating further? And what other functions might cease to work, after the inter-city gates and adding friends?
Wow, a lot of people are butthurt at the fact that stils didn’t like the focus on the newbies figuring out that teamwork was necessary.
I’m sorry, but I don’t think “newbies” applies here, these guys are lvl 20-24 and still haven’t figured out that . . .maybe you shou’dn thave the wizard tanking and drawing aggro?
Also if you’ve ever played any other games BESIDES an mmo, you would know what mages arent exactly huge damage machines that can take on 5 enemys at once. Also, didn’t naotsugu and mari and shoryuu teach them the basics of partying and dungeon crawling? I t would seriously take them like 2 mintues to explain: “hey, tanks go in the front, they draw aggro, ranged dammage dealers are weak in defense and HP but have strong ranged attack, if you outdamage the tank or attack mobs before the tank can draw aggro the mobs will attack you and kill you.
Simple Easy and took me like 30 seconds. The instruscturs are lvl 90. . .and they couldn’t spend 5 mintu esto explain that before they were like “ok go dungeon crawling”? Hell in the first MMO I played I figured out in five minutes about tanks drawing aggro, mages doin granged dammage but dying easily, etc etc. Like really its not that hard, they haven’t been playing for five minutes.
First, the boy and girl awere ALREADY being taught by shiroe before the apocalypse, so they should have already known that, not to mention the fact that they both probably had to fight tough monetsers whiel in Hamelin. Usually players figure out how to use basic machanics such as PARTYING by the time they are like lvl 10 At least!
The fact that they had the noobies go through this is an insult to the characters, I mean really, if they couldn’t figure this out by level 20, or even had the lvl 90 guys tell them BEFORE they sent them to the dungeon then yeah. . .that really makes these people look like complete idiots. Really there is no excuse for this. It was a total waste of time.
WHen you play ANY MMO or just any game in general,the developer pretty much teaches you or works his damned hardest to teach you basic functions (Partying counts becuase that’s what the game was designed on) as you go throuhg the noobie tutorials or newbie quests etc. Realyl jus tplaying the game the developer pretty much designs that content around teachign players the basics.
So no. The “they are newbies” excuse is just plain wrong. You guys need to think of better ways to defend your shows when someone points out flaws. Seriously it makes me cringe at how much you guys suck at it.
I think the biggest problem is how we have been getting this “MMORPG information for beginners” up until now. Usually it’s been a line or two narrated by Shiroe at the beginning of the show or otherwise presented as the “comedic relief” in between the more serious segments regarding world-building. A whole episode largely focused on the mechanics could have worked fine, if a lot of it was not the exact same information presented in those earlier episodes. Recapping only works if condensed to what is essential for understanding the current situation and done after a sufficient amount of time (ex. the time it would take for the average viewer/reader to forget specifics).
Personally I think this was done intentionally as a means to further development of what are ultimately secondary characters. Ironic in that it shows how flat they are to begin with.
That’s a good point, a lot of this stuff was covered by the Shiroe/Naotsugu/Akatsuki trio early on. This was a LITTLE more in-depth, but not really enough to justify taking 85% of the episode.
Well, for what its worth, in the novel this part is actually VERY detail, so detail that it felt like you’re reading a battle play-through sample in a MMO guide rather then a novel.
first, many people acknowledged this episode might be weak. what people were defending were the characters. some people arguing against keep bringing up knowledge from other games. except…Elder Tales is the VERY FIRST game for most of them.
also, they WERE following the very basic formation of tank in front. just SOMETHING was going on and they couldn’t figure out what because of how they approached the problem.
also remember they’re in a dungeon. each of them got to Lvl 20+ through field training. which is MUCH easier, lower encounter rates, more relaxing time, less reinforcements if any at all and less enemies in general.
Hamlin? PFT. that was a prime example of BAD party play. thus they have experience in BAD party play. and even then that was ONLY Tohya. and even than Tohya only linked the problem with his Taunts were just much too ineffective to make up for a whopping 30 Lvls difference.
the only experience each of them had was FIELD experience which was on a whole different level from DUNGEON experience. Serara wasn’t even an active player hunting but her main focus was elsewhere. the only experience Minoro and Tohya had before the Apocalypse was with Shiroe.
there’s also a great difference between knowing and experiencing. even if the instructors babied them all the way, a few things could happen. the group would likely still have some problems and just fall back on the instructors. this can easily create a dependence on the higher Lvls when a large part of it is to learn to figure this stuff out themselves. there’s a TON if stuff to learn on the way to 90 or mid level and dungeon partying is just one. will the instructors teach them the whole way? or let the kids figure out how to survive on their own?
we’re plenty justified in claiming they’re newbies because, again, this is literally their very first game for many of them (not just MMO but ANY)
That awkward moment when Rudy identity was sort of revealed last episode (and in the RC screen caps) but nearly everyone (including me) completely forgotten about them lol.
Stilts, I’m usually more aligned with your opinions, but not this time. Why should this be targeted to MMORPGs players only ? I’m not one of them, for instance, still this is one of my favourite shows (well, I do play videogames, but I’m shamefully a good fps player) and I’m glad I’m not left out just because of that.
This is not a show about a MMORPG, this is a show about people trapped in a MMORPG. The MMORPG is the setting. It can, and should, be enjoied by a wide range of viewers.
That reminds me of your other issue with the newbies arc, but that has already been very well explored and discussed by Wanderer here, and I completely agree with him. I’ll just add that in my opinion, you are focusing too much on the mmorpg aspect, thus missing the human aspect. They are doing a “life” experience there, growing together, learning the hard way, becoming friends. To quote Minori:
Now, that goes beyond clearing a dungeon. They are learning how important is to communicate with each other. Also, for what we know, this is the first time for them to be in a party of equals, while before they were just told what to do (when they were exploited by the bad guys of the guild I don’t remember the name of), mainly just some plain combat to gain experience.
They don’t look stupid to me, nor they are shown as stupid, just as kids, like they are.
I enjoy watching them, as they are not a side story. They’re part of the story.
That said, Stilts, even with diverging opinions, you’re one of my favourite writers 😉
Stilts, I’m usually more aligned with your opinions, but not this time. Why should this be targeted to MMORPGs players only ?
Hear hear. So @Stilts, I would like to know how would you reply if someone tells you that s/he thinks Saki should probably target experienced mahjong players only?
they don’t really elaborate on the rules of Mahjong in Saki
Yeah, maybe Stilts did get a little judgmental but you can’t denied that compare to any other episodes this one just isn’t all that. This is probably due to their animation budget not that high & since this episode cover more actions then ideas things just aren’t as exciting.
This worries me, since even anime-only fans can clearly sees a lot of actions is upon us.
I won’t deny it, it wasn’t the strongest episode of the series so far. I was just discussing about the way it is judged, and I’m glad to confirm that there are far more good commenters here than haters, regardless of their opinion.
Next episode should re-unite all us fans under the same flag of epicness (I hope). See you in the comments then
I shall amend my point slightly to bring it more in line with something you may agree with (and it’s what I really think, though I missed the point in the original post and it took your comment to make me realize the underlying truth):
This story has, so far, been written and told for people who are fairly savvy about games in general, or even simply can pick up on things from context quickly. The point was not that non-MMORPG players cannot nor should not enjoy this – they haven’t gone quite that far, as the past snippits of explanation show. Rather, it’s been told from a high-level perspective, so if you’re not either knowledgeable about the genre or able to pick things up fairly quickly, you’d have been lost a long time ago.
The problem is that they expected us to operate on an at least Lv 60, uh, level up until now, and now they’re dropping us (the audience) down to Lv 20.
Taking the Saki example, you’re not expected to understand mahjong to enjoy it, nor do you have to – I only know the basics myself, and I’ve friggin’ blogged about it before! They do expect you to be able to pick things up fairly quickly, and don’t explain the most basic of basics about mahjong. Here the problem was the equivalent of, after an entire cour of crazy mahjong, them dropping it down and explaining the basics to us. Which Saki, to its credit, has never bothered to do.
All that said, you’re totally right that it’s more about the people than the game (or lack of/former game, as were the case). Once again, my problem wasn’t what happened specifically – they needed to have that talk, and newbies making mistakes is more the rule than the exception (until they stop being newbies). It’s how long it took them to get there – which made the characters look silly for not doing basic problem solving earlier, or their teachers look silly for not giving them the most basic of information (save for Shiroe) – that I objected to.
Finally, thanks for the compliment Voyager : ) It’s a pleasure disagreeing with you from time-to-time, haha!
It was my pleasure eheh! Thanks for the reply, I can now understand better your position. See you on the next review
What they’ve learned here are the skills of each member of the party and how to use them in synergy in battle. You don’t really expect newbies to be knowledgeable to the skill sets of other classes aside from their own at the start. Unless you could browse the net and check it out which is not possible in their case.
may be reiterating a few pts since I’m posting a bit late.
as people already mentioned, Kannagi can equip offensive weapons. Anonymosity mentioned the part with Shouryuu cut. more specifically, we see him training one on one with a mid Lvl Kanangi, teaching him (or was it her) how to fight. if there happens to be reinforcements or just a breach in the defense of some sort (or a lone extra), the Kannagi needs to learn to control distance and timing and prediction to be able to cast spells (and not get interrupted
the part with Mary being helpless as a Lvl 90 was more so in the anime only. in the LN, she was actively defending the newbies and healing and she was the one to call in Shouryuu.
just to helpwith Rudie’s image a bit, in the LN, IIRC, he was still arrogant but he did not look down on anyone (at least didn’t snicker when he heard Minori’s Lvl). also, anime loves emphasizing the hints found in the LN. forgot what other one in the past episodes but yea.
to reiterate, the newbie team did talk a bit. but most of it turned to internal monologues. one scene the got cut from the LN was Minori going in-depth on each person’s possible faults and she couldn’t pinpoint the exact reason because all the little things together were the reason. this also could’ve showed a bit more that as much as some people put the fault to Minori for not speaking up and taking the lead, she couldn’t. she may have had a bit more knowledge but was just as lacking overall. she may have been the best at leading the group to overcoming it. as Wanderer alluded to, they were stuck at fixing the problem the wrong way. was it just a few things they were doing wrong? if so, what? which could be the case, but just not this one.
for this point, I guess the fact that it took so many days made it annoying or less believable. though as a final thing to mention, for most of the group, Elder Tales is their very FIRST MMORPG ever, which might not have been mentioned?
oh, and as for Tohya not mentioning to Rudie the importance of taunts, there’s a few things to consider.
Tohya’s taunts were hitting, just at the wrong timing because it was too late. he didn’t realize that till the conversation
Rudie did mention that those 2 seconds were crucial when Tohya proposed that. for this,
1: Tohya only was able to consider this after learning that his Taunts were failing because of Rudie’s spell hitting for sure. but even then this is one some of the time. in their very first fight, Tohya did get his taunts out first. Rudie’s just TOO strong (thus Isuzu’s Ability would come in handy here) and that was the bigger problem (thus why when they worked things out, we hear Tohya mentioning he got Taunt on each one TWICE.
2.also cut from the anime was that in their battles, enemy reinforcements kept coming, making it seem like Rudie HAD to keep dealing dmg to keep the enemies at bay, which spirals into problems. they were running into MP problems and Isuzu can only use two Songs (the Ablity of Bards, including the dmg masking) so she wouldn’t have initially thought of using the dmg masking, especially when she didn’t know its true worth and instead went for bonus attacks, and increased attack speed and switched to heal MP slowly increased speed which let them live but meant Rudie wasn’t able to kill as much as quickly, forcing him to keep attacking still. if we analyzed that mechanic specifically, she wasn’t exactly wrong, per se, but that wasn’t the right call and Isuzu didn’t know how to correct the situation since not switching the two songs meant taking more dmg and using more MP (which the two healers were using up fast).
also, correction to my previous comment, it was Isuzu that pointed out each person’s possible faults but couldn’t poinpoint which was the biggest cause. but I still believe each of them had similar thoughts. Rudie as an example, lashed out at the Healers last episode but purely out of frustration because he knew that wasn’t truly the problem.
*Pats miss Isuzu.
Clearly, this is a guy that’s living the dream… HE CANNOT BE FRIEND-ZONED! The universe is against it!
He’s pet-zoned.
That has got to be the best answer I have heard for that question ^_^;
Log Horizon is best when it takes the MMORPG concept into new directions at a very high level. It’s not so good when it’s acting like viewer’s first MMORPG…
Ahh, it finally happen for real this time. Before this episode the translations to anime from novel are always with certain cut-offs but were always somewhat make up by add-ons.
This time they cut off a little too much & in result makes the newbies looks like noobs that don’t even know they need to cooperate.
Things happen in the novel before the murlocs attack that the anime leave out.Show Spoiler ▼
This makes this mini arc felt a lot shallow than it could have been.
At first I thought Izusu was comfortable about Rudy because he’s a baka, but no, it’s because he’s an inu. As a dog lover in general and a golden retriever lover in particular, I WANT ONE!!
Again, the anime somehow forget to mention the reason Izusu felt like that is because IRL she have a close relationship with a golden retriever that her rich neighbour own. & Rudy is very much like that dog; Elegant, handsome, total douche at times yet truly friendly, simple, honest, funny, & a very good boy. In the anime this girl just somehow think that a boy of her age looks like a dog? Weird.
Formation, operator, field monitor, patrol file…seems too complicated to me.
Again, their past noob fight is suppose to be old-Rainbow-Six-technical, they just cut out too many things that required the technical terms. Sigh, the shortcomings of an anime that mainly target Pokémon cartoon viewers.
C’mon Marie-nee, even in a swimsuit and as a healer, you’re Lv 90. Melt their fuckin’ faces off.
Again,
Things happen in the novel during the murlocs attack that the anime leave out. Show Spoiler ▼
It’s because it’s from NHK.
Yeah I know, but I expected them to cut out the sexy & the bloody & even some of the actions, not important plot points that makes Log Horizon worth while.
well a large part of it is just the incompatibility? I would say. the LN was too detailed in a way that isn’t really fit for adaption into video without getting too talky. it’s something much easier to get through with in written form. the anime keeps with the major plot points though some of the finer details are having difficulty getting through smoothly. the dungeon experience is one and some people complained about the Hamelin operation (finer game mechanic details) and the Serara rescue among other things. it’s not as obvious in the anime because putting it out in an obvious way would either be awkward or get repetitive.
@GoXDS
Agree about the incompatibility, it just…when the anime pull off the meeting with the 3 merchant guilds & I dare say better than the novel, you can’t fault one to have higher expectation that they would pull the other stuffs off.
That’s all good to know, LGM. This is a hard series to adapt into another format because it’s so complex – see the utter failure of an adaptation that was Touno-sensei’s other story, Maoyuu – so it’s no surprise that some things get cut out. Some of those details were really needed to make the newbies seem in over their heads as opposed to just thick.
Also, bloodstained battle badass Marie-nee would have been awesome :*(
*Think of the kids!*
I would like to point out that the anime also cut out most of Minori’s (and other’s, notably Tohya’s, but Minori was most explored) in-security about standing up and speaking.
What I’m saying is, the growing up what I’ve seen some commenters say they wanted happened in the LNs, alongside what we had in this episode, but it wasn’t shown in the anime =/
It could be said that this episode was this far the most unfaithful to the source material.
@Anonymosity: I would like to point out that the anime also cut out most of Minori’s (and other’s, notably Tohya’s, but Minori was most explored) in-security about standing up and speaking… It could be said that this episode was this far the most unfaithful to the source material.
As an LN reader as well, I disagree. “Most unfaithful to the source episode” is going too far IMO. What you’re complaining about (Minori’s insecurity about standing up and speaking) was addressed in the previous episode around the 22 minute mark (Horrible subs). Her internal dialog is: “If I’m too scared to say it, nothing will change. I have to say it!” It didn’t go into the same level of detail as the LN, but you could say that for, well, pretty much almost all the anime. How it goes with 99% of adaptations.
Personally, I think it’s readily inferred from the way that the anime portrayed Minori that she is a shy person by nature. When you add the above lines, it’s pretty clear that it was hard for her to “stand up” and speak her mind, but even so, she knew it had to be done or the newbies would never progress. IMO, the anime gives viewers enough information to figure it out with a bit of thought. You’re not spoon-fed the every little detail, but is that really necessary all the time?
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@LGM: I agree that there’s much more detail in the LN (see above about how that almost always the case with adaptations), but IMO it’s not as bad as you make it seem. The anime makes the viewer work a bit. As I mentioned above, you don’t get spoon-fed everything. Rather than several reminders about the newbies struggling to figure out why they are having so much trouble, you get a few lines scattered about here and there and the viewer is expected to make that conclusion from the information given. It’s a bit of work, but IMO it’s not impossible or as bad as you make it seem
The anime did keep Rudy’s line about “why are we so weak, why am I so weak”. The viewer does get a sense of the frustration the characters have with their inability to do as well as they should. It’s a learning process, and IMO that comes across in a sufficient, if less than ideal, manner.
– Again, the anime somehow forget to mention the reason Izusu felt like that is because IRL she have a close relationship with a golden retriever that her rich neighbor own. & Rudy is very much like that dog; Elegant, handsome, total douche at times yet truly friendly, simple, honest, funny, & a very good boy. In the anime this girl just somehow think that a boy of her age looks like a dog? Weird.
This is a perfect example of why IMO your criticism is takes things unfairly too far. Your complaint takes her anime dialog to literally. “Elegant, handsome, total douche at times yet truly friendly, simple, honest, funny, & a very good boy.” Even without the dog analogy, I think her view of him as you describe comes across fine in the anime.
Perhaps I’m mistaken, but I suspect that the majority anime only viewers took Isuzu’s lines to = “Rudy’s personality is like a big, goofy, friendly dog” rather than he literally looks like some sort of humanoid dog. Again, the anime doesn’t spoon feed every single detail to viewers, but is that really necessary? JMO, but I’d like to think that the vast majority of viewers are intellectually capable of making some basic conclusions based upon what’s inferred.
To be clear, I prefer the LN version because it does have all these details which adds richness to the story. Frankly, it’s that very reason why I typically prefer the source to the adaptation. I agree that the story isn’t as dark/tense with the anime’s “G-rated” version. That’s a valid criticism IMO, but for whatever reason (NHK broadcasting, etc.) evidently those changes were required. Less than desirable, but not completely undermining or damning as far as I’m concerned.
One important item: I do NOT have any issue with comparing the two versions of the same story (source vs. adaptation). I’d be a hypocrite in every sense of the word to say otherwise. Could the anime’s adaptation be better – sure. Along with the “G rated” issue mentioned above, there’s at least one other anime change which IMO was unnecessary. The time spent on that could have been better used elsewhere. TBH, as an LN reader, what surprises me is the degree of criticism other LN readers have for this adaptation. Overall IMO, this is neither a bad nor unfaithful adaptation. True, the anime is cutting some details, but it is NOT changing the characters or the story. I’ve watched “adaptations” which were MUCH more “unfaithful” to the source material.
@daikama
To be honest I myself don’t really mind most of the changes the anime did, some of the things like the violent & sexiness are gone is a little disappointing but I totally understand why they had to go & I am mostly over it as I am eagerly waiting for Log Horizon every week. (I really only does that correctly with Log Horizon & Sherlock)
Like I said: …the translations to anime from novel are always with certain cut-offs but were always somewhat make up by add-ons
What I can’t stand is 1. my brother – who is anime-only question why that girl think Rudy is a dog?
I honestly don’t know how anyone else who is anime-only thinks about this but if there’s one 16 years old male having problem with this Rudy is dog stuff what stopping more people getting confuse with this? The anime could have easily fix this with 20seconds of telling the viewer about the whole IRL thing but no.
And 2. like what Stilts said, let’s be honest, this is boring. This whole arc of them standing up & teamwork; the starting is interesting enough but its downhill from there, this episode in particular just isn’t interesting enough. The talking is good, but the fighting is just…bored.
& the problem is not that its not faithful or anything unimportant like that, the problem is that I, or we as the LN fans knows that this arc is one of the high points in the novel, that this whole 1st victory the newbies had is the most exciting part of the 1st half of the novel, yes I would dare claim that it is more exciting then the talk that Shiroe had with Ri Gan.
Yet here in anime-form it is boring for Stilts, & like what they say: “If there’s one, there’ll be two, & then three.” & if I’m honest with myself, if I just take off my rosy colour-glasses I can also agree this episode is a bit boring.
I really don’t care how they change it up or cut off in the anime, as long as it is still a great or even good watch is fine. But when you change or cut-out something from the original source & make it confusing or worst, less fun, then that’s a problem.
As an LN reader as well, I disagree. “Most unfaithful to the source episode” is going too far IMO.
That was… More of a weird backhanded compliment than actual criticism, to be honest.
I mean, the anime is really faithful to the LN. All the changes this far have been either due to making this viewable by all age groups (lack or/reduction of sexual and violent content), to give additional information (the preparation for the Crecent Moon) or because the original way wouldn’t have worked in anime format like it did in LN format (the way guild permission mechanics were explained). So, when some information is cut for apparently no other reason than “it’s not needed” or “time restraints”, in a sense it is unfaithfulness.
The point I’m trying to make is that this anime has been so faithful to the LN that something this small can count as the biggest unfaithfulness. And by “this small” I really mean small.
Sorry I said it in such a confusing way…
@Anonymosity: So, when some information is cut for apparently no other reason than “it’s not needed” or “time restraints”, in a sense it is unfaithfulness.
Thanks for clarifying. FWIW, I agree with your statement, but since opinion vary widely as to what’s a “good” or “proper” adaptation (plus it’s OT), best to leave it at that.
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@LGM
– What I can’t stand is 1. my brother – who is anime-only question why that girl think Rudy is a dog?
I have no idea why your brother would take that statement literally. I would think that he wouldn’t take the statement “I’ve told you a million times before…” to mean that the speaker actually made the statement in question 1,000,000 times previously. All I can say is that from my perspective, even without any LN knowledge, Isuzu’s comment was clearly meant as a metaphor.
Personally, I think there’s a fine line between not giving sufficient detail (usually the problem with adaptations) and giving too much detail. The latter is possible, and in extreme cases, potentially considered insulting to the viewer’s intelligence. I’m NOT saying that the situation here, but with all the continuous complaints about lack of details, I think it should be noted that there is “another side to the coin” in this type of situation.
– And 2. like what Stilts said, let’s be honest, this is boring. This whole arc of them standing up & teamwork; the starting is interesting enough but its downhill from there, this episode in particular just isn’t interesting enough. The talking is good, but the fighting is just…bored.
You and Stilts are certainly entitled to your opinion on that, but it is not one to which I subscribe (or given comments others as well). The battle is “boring” – well, that’s how a lot of low-level battles are. Low level players don’t have the flashy spells and skills high level players do. It’s one of the frustrating things for me playing a low level mage (particularly in “old-school” RPG games). “OK – here goes my one hardly effective spell! …Umm, can we rest now so I can re-memorize it?” Meh. So while it may be “boring”, IMO it is realistic, and I think that counts for a lot – especially when so many viewers do have experience with these types of games.
I wasn’t planning on commenting upon Stilts criticism of this part of the show since others have done so, but since it’s come up in this discussion, I guess I will. Putting that in a separate post b/c this will definitely be “tl:dr” otherwise.
Well, after some Reply i began to wonder, if The Anime here. Will show us Marie-nee in her Combat Armor. She will need it now. And the Other Important Persons, we saw until now in her Casual Cloths..
Please, show us them in their Combat Armors. Yeah, i know dont get to much in the Ecchi Zone. Just dont make them to Slutty. Dont forget she is more a “Mother” for the Little Ones in her Guild
I begin to wonder if this Screenshot: https://randomc.net/image/Log%20Horizon/Log%20Horizon%20-%2015%20-%20Large%2026.jpg
are his Diary Notes or something. Because, is he afraid to forget some memories and is writing down important Things, that he can not Forget? But then, if he begin to write down his Rules and Memories. if these Papers fall on the Wrong Hands, he has a real serious Problem.. Yeah ever thing has two side of a coin
Slutty in this anime? Really? ^^;
Looking really closely, what I can make out on the right are notes about the info he got from Regan(sp?) about the mind-body theory stuff, and on the left note is something-something-“does there exist bodies without souls?”-something-something-something-“can get close to the cause of the Second(?) World Fraction?”
Before the notes were shown, Shiroe was thinking about why Henrietta says that he seems to be tired. He thinks it is most likely because he was busy thinking about too many things (cue showing of notes). So, I don’t think he’s writing down his memories because of fear of losing them (why would he worry about that unless he thinks he’s going to be killed a bunch of times in the future?), but writing down the information he has gained and questions/ideas he has about the information.
I kinda have to disagree with you Stilts. This arc is boring but I think it’s important for them to understand the concept of teamwork instead of merely knowing about it. Everyone knows that teamwork is important but few people knew what it meant much less what needs to be done. I think what Minori is take a concept and make into practical application- that I think is significant.
@Stilts: I realize there has already been significant discussion on this, but I’d like to throw in my proverbial 2 cents.
– “but here’s the thing – you don’t have to tell a story for everyone. Log Horizon could have been, and probably should be, targeted at those who already know how MMORPGs work – those viewers who have the equivalent of Lv 90 knowledge.”
I completely disagree with that. Consider another show in which you are familiar – Girls und Panzer. When reading your statement, my first thought was what if Girls und Panzer did away with all of the tank stats and tank combat information. After all, if your a “tank or WWII otaku” (equivalent to “those viewers who have lv 90 knowledge”) you know that stuff already. You know that Panzer IV Ausf D has a short barreled 75mm KwK 37 L/24 howitzer designed for anti-infantry use which makes it practically useless as an anti-tank gun (same goes for the M3 Lee’s and Char B1Bis’ 75mm guns). Thus, you understand why finding the KwK 40 L/43 barrel (used as a clothesline LOL) was such a big deal. You know that a Tiger(P) was notoriously unreliable and slow even for a heavy tank (the reason Henschel’s more conventional design was chosen over Porsche’s during development) which is why towing it up the hill is such a brilliant, “out of the box” idea. I can go on and on.
In my EP 12 GuP post I wrote: More than that, he [the GuP director] also considered the perspective of all viewers – not just the core audience. Information such as tanks specs and explanation of tactics helped non-core viewers better understand what was going on. Overhead battle views made keeping track of each match much easier. Pink tanks might see funny or even stupid, but it was a simple way to help viewers distinguish the various Oarai teams. The same can be said for Oarai’s team mascots and even the other school’s “nationalities”. Rather than a niche anime, I consider GuP a show any anime fan can enjoy.
Granted JMO, but to target the anime to “those viewers who have the equivalent of Lv 90 knowledge” turns Log Horizon into a niche anime – the exact opposite of what I felt was a strength of Girls und Panzer which easily could have been a niche show. Perhaps a large niche, but a niche nonetheless. Personally, I don’t see that as good thing. I have significant RPG game experience, but no MMORPG experience. Had the show solely focused on the niche you describe, I might very well have dropped the show because there are instances where the MMO part of MMORPG makes a big difference. The anime’s (as well as LN’s) explanations helped me understand what was going on and why rather than become frustrated. I can only imagine how viewers without any RPG experience (MMO or otherwise) might feel if such information was excluded.
Lastly, with all due respect, I agree with others that you are having difficulty divorcing your considerable MMORPG experience while viewing. This is the twins first MMORPG (most likely first RPG game period). I don’t know about the rest of the group, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the case for at least one or two others. Things that might seem “obvious” to experienced players like yourself are understandably not so obvious to them. Furthermore, for me having some of the players struggle with the basics gives the LH world an added layer of realism. Visually it might be more exciting to watch players running around spamming high level skills or spells, but IMO that also makes it seem more like watching an anime about people playing an MMORPG. The fact that players struggle to adapt – on different levels and in their own way, makes the story richer, more realistic, and IMO, much better. Sometimes RL can be boring, but it’s those boring moments which make the exciting ones all the more so.
I addressed this above, but here’s the short version – I misspoke to say that it should only be for MMORPG players, just in the same was that Garupan shouldn’t have (and wasn’t) only for tank otaku and Saki isn’t (and shouldn’t be) only for mahjong players. What it should be is for viewers who can pick up on the subtleties quickly instead of having them all spelled out for them.
To paraphrase myself from earlier, they had us operating at an at least Lv 60, uh, level (need to have a better way to say that o.O) for the series up until now, and now they’re dropping us down to Lv 20. If they started out Lv 20 and raised it, cool, I get that. Taking us back to basics 15 episodes in is what I didn’t like.
To use your Garupan example, that would be like telling it like they did up until Episode 08, at which time they suddenly decide to start listing out all that complex tank otaku stuff you said that made my eyes glaze over.
As for the first MMORPG angle, LGM mentioned a bunch of differences between the LN and the anime that would have completely blunted my criticism (I wouldn’t even have thought of it, to be honest). The problem is not that they didn’t know what to do, that’s totally understandable (and yes, even from my experienced PoV – which I assure you isn’t making me jaded here – I can see that). The problem is not that they needed to have this conversation. The problem is that they only showed them A) failing and B) brooding before then. They didn’t show them trying to solve the problem and going down the wrong track. They didn’t show them training in well-meaning but slightly wrong ways. They didn’t show them struggling and just narrowly missing what they needed to be doing. They showed them failing up until they finally had what appeared to be their first serious talk together. THAT’S what I object to – everything that happened was largely fine, it’s when and what led up to it that didn’t work.
In the anime. As per LGM’s comment, it appears the LN did it all more or less right.
@Stilts. Thanks for the reply.
You state: “What it should be is for viewers who can pick up on the subtleties quickly instead of having them all spelled out for them. Then follow up with “they didn’t show [xyz]” and “As per LGM’s comment, it appears the LN did it all more or less right.”
I’ve read the LN as well and LGM’s argument boils down to “they left out a bunch of details that were in the LN which should have been included”. Taking all the above into account I read your reply as in one instance stating “We don’t need all these details”, but yet in another “We needed more details”. O.o Perhaps I’m not understanding your point correctly since those statements are contradictory.
At any rate, consider your list of what was left out. Is it really that hard to infer they did those things? Not the exact details of course such as going down X pathway instead of Y pathway, but that they tried a lot of different things which didn’t work. We saw them having difficulties beyond what was to be expected. We saw them frustrated and concerned over said difficulties. We saw Rudy training extra hard to improve and overcome said difficulties along with Isuzu commenting about how it’s not anyone’s fault in particular. Clearly Minori has been thinking about how they can improve. So IMO it’s not a big leap to infer that they have been trying a bunch of different things “off camera” and nothing so far had worked until Minori’s speech.
Again, I agree that the LN does a better job and have posted as much. However, I stand by what I wrote in my reply to LGM which (in summary) is “True the anime left out some details, but with a little effort on the viewer’s part, one can work out those details.” Maybe OT, but I have to comment that I’m honestly amazed that there’s this much “acceptable” comparison between the source material and anime – particularly since the source material is deemed better. I was lambasted for making the same type of comparison for another show which deviated far, far more from the source material. Meh, w/e.
There’s a considerable amount left to cover in this arc, and I’m curious to see how the show paces for the remainder of the season. My impression is that the show is cutting a little extra material now in order to ensure there is ample time to present the rest of this arc. Whether that is a good idea or not will have to wait until the season’s over and a proper assessment can be made.
…”they had us operating at an at least Lv 60…for the series up until now, and now they’re dropping us down to Lv 20. If they started out Lv 20 and raised it, cool, I get that. Taking us back to basics 15 episodes in is what I didn’t like.
I think I get your point here. If I understand you correctly, you object to presenting low-level play after so much time has been spent on mid-high level stuff. It’s backwards progression which is jarring (right?). Assuming that’s correct, then I think I know why we disagree. I look at this sub-plot primarily from a personal development stand point rather than a player stand point. A bit hard to explain, but it’s more Minori developing as a person rather than as MMORPG Kannagi player. True, both are intertwined, but for me these scenes go beyond the MMORPG aspect. Whether it’s level 20 stuff or level 90 stuff, that’s not so important for me as watching two kids grow up a little as they overcoming the challenge that they face.
I think you and LGM have legitimate complaints in that the show could have done a better job with the newbies. Frankly, I thought the show was a bit abrupt in how it handled that part of the story in previous episodes. IMO, what was presented was barely sufficient to convey the situation. It’s no different IMO than some of the complaints about the early episodes in terms of introducing the situation the players faced. I just think that you and LGM take your criticisms further than they should be. JMO, and if we don’t agree, then agree to disagree.
Frankly, you guys are writing really long posts so I’m sort of skimming but frankly, I think you’re politeness is sort of avoiding the real point (though it’s nice when politeness is the reason on the internet instead of people being horrible).
The first half of this episode wasn’t written very well. Full stop. You can blame the LN, or you can blame the anime; you can say it’s the target crowd or you can say it’s the plot. But at the end of the day, this wasn’t written well. It was heavy on jargon and MMO technobabble, it re-explained things that have already been explained in the show several times. It didn’t really advance the plot in that meaningful of a way.
It’s not a good scene. That doesn’t mean no one likes it, but from a straight up writing/directing/critiquing point of view it’s just not a good scene. And the defenses people are giving are largely catch-22s. People argue that it was targeted at non-MMO players, but that’s not true. The sheer amount of terms and jargon used are going to be a complete turnoff to non-MMO players because they already by definition don’t care about all of those terms. And MMO players will be annoyed because they’re stating the obvious.
It’s a scene that comes off as a MMO tutorial which is not something that should be said about a fictional show for entertainment.
Sorry, one last little thing to kind of sum up. In any medium, exposition dumps have to be handled carefully and, usually, avoided where possible. This was an exposition dump, and not a particularly subtle one.
I too skimmed like a mofo ’cause I been drinkin’, but a few points:
* The details they expected us to keep up with were world-building / MMORPG systems. That’s the equivalent of basic mahjong rules in Sake. The details I wanted more of all had to do with the characters. That’s the equivalent of the same thing in Saki, which they have never skimped on (outside of some mistakes in Achiga-hen).
* On the second point, you have grasped my point accurately. And I agree that the arc is, largely, about the newbie characters getting up to speed. AND YET, it’s also the character parts that have been bungled, namely in all the ways I mentioned that made them look stupid rather than merely confused / in over their heads. I question whether them dropping down to Lv 20, uh, level was a wise decision in the source material since they were forcing us to operate at a higher level before, but even taking that as a given the character parts were bungled. So that’s not ideal.
I really like the development there, it shows how tactics often is not something people think of, and how many things you do unconsciously. This development is required to show that the newbies are becoming better, and also becoming a tight team, not out of nowhere but as they improve. So honestly, I think they did this perfectly. This is how it SHOULD be done, to show how the utter n00bs develop into proper players. If they suddenly acted perfectly along as team just like the veterans do, while even Akatsuki expressed envy of the way Nyanta and Naotsugu worked perfectly together with Shiroe, it’d just be utter nonsense.
While watching the episode, I realized that many tricks were things I was used to in Ragnarok Online, while I never even realized I used them when I played. I considered myself a lousy player and my class, Priest, something any idiot could do. Yet at the same time, I noticed that some other Priests did so much worse than I did in combat, were far more lousy at keeping people alive in stressful combat. I never understood why, because even an idiot could do it with ease, I thought.
It wasn’t until I saw this episode that I realized that I was multi-tasking, keeping an eye out on the entire environment as well as everyone’s health, and was aware of the dangers around me and knowing when I could take it easy and when I had to be on the edge of my seat. Heck, I acted as Field Monitor without ever realizing that was a thing, I simply kept an eye out and never realized not everyone was smart enough to keep an eye out. “Miniboss near” put the rest on their toes, ready to evac if it got too close. Not to mention how I’d lead the team towards a room that we could control and not get rushed in, rather than fighting in the open, and how we’d lure enemies in.
It seems common sense, yes, but even at that high level not everyone would do that unless told to, and people had to learn that the hard way. The only reason I learned it so quickly myself was because I solo’d a weak class, so had to be extremely careful while leveling. It’s not something everyone realizes. I got plenty of experience with rushers, yet also experience with careful teams that would pull a few enemies at a time, and even that took time and a few wipes for learning it was a good idea to be careful.
Heck, you want to talk realizing what is a smart move? Someone found it weird that Minori, a healer, attacked in melee with a weapon. However, the entire idea was that the ranged guy, lured in and without backup, would get rushed and beaten down asap so they could support the samurai against the others. At that point, you want everyone to join in. Especially since the biggest danger factor here is that he costs you time that you can’t spend supporting the tank. Even people who consider themselves veterans don’t always realize the smarts that went into the tactics here.
Show Spoiler ▼
actually, as someone who is playing his first mmo (A realm reborn) right now and loving it, I quite enjoy the noob sequences, especially since I got my first intro to high level tactics only this past week, so I can really relate to not knowing what the hell to do when the plan goes wrong
to expand on a problem some people had with the Lvl 90s not telling the kids anything, there’s a few points to consider first
first, they had the very basics down already (for game play, not necessarily for partying or dungeon). the kids we saw at the beach were the ones that really didn’t know anything. thus each of them at least knew what their own class did for the most part. you could argue that the instructors could have elaborated on the partying and such but that brings me to my next point.
second, the point of the training camp was to help the kids learn and grow. guiding them step by step may have its pros but there’s cons as well. for one, if the Lvl 90s were always around, telling them what to do each step of the way, the kids could become dependent and panic when something unexpected happens and the Lvl 90s aren’t around (in the future). even if they did, each person has their personal habits and preferences thus Lvl 90s can’t teach the kids directly how they do it themselves because that limits the potential growth of the kids. even if they leave out how they personally do it and just teach them about general formations, that’s forcing them to memorize and can potentially make the kids dependent on just the formations taught to them. the kids would be better off experimenting themselves (which was left out of the anime). letting them experiment would let them find a method they’re most comfortable with and forces them to use their imagination and encourages the kids to seek out knowledge proactively instead of passively receiving knowledge from their senpai all the time.
lastly, the Lvl 90s can’t just assign roles either. letting the kids experiment themselves and figure it out on their own has the pro of letting themselves naturally cooperate and build trust (also a key theme the training camp was meant to do). if Minori was just selected as “leader”, one, some of the others might not truly trust her without prior experience, and two, Minori would feel less pressure and probably more confidence herself if she voluntarily took on the role. the struggles they went through to get there also slowly builds up a team bond by emphasizing that they really need to work together and spending time together in itself builds the bonds
I just want to say, after reading/skimming through the posts, that it’s difficult to judge a lot of things because I assume most of us are older than the newbie group in real life. I think age is a huge factor. We all like to believe we were very rational and analytical back when we were in middle school, but the truth is we’re not. Can you imagine teaming up with a bunch of 6th graders trying to coordinate a battle where everyone has to work in sync with each other? I have a hard time believing I’d do very well back when I was that age.
Still, I do agree with stilts that this was a boring episode(for me). But with the Goblin King returning things should be picking up.
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To be fair, everyone in the rookie party is new to the game. They don’t have access to online guides or the option to try all the classes. While I agree that they probably should have worked out the party dynamics by their second dungeon attempt, I do feel that it’s a good thing that the show is taking it’s time to explain things for non-MMO players. I know quite a few people who are watching Log Horizon never having played a MMO and feel a bit overwhelmed by the show’s info dumps at times.
Some interesting things coming up with Rudy and Shiroe, don’t read if you don’t like spoilers. Show Spoiler ▼
So I watched this current episode of the so-called dungeon crawl and read the blogging, and I have to say IMHO, you guys who have argued that the “newbies” are noobs, are wrong (95% wrong).
Here is why. First and foremost is that fact that the “newbies” are lvl 20+ (you are not a newbie anymore). This means (without a doubt) that they should already have basic MMORPG mechanics down. This is 101 boys and girls. Stilts is correct in his assessment of the current episode. It took away from who these kids are and why they are there. It was a poor choice on the director’s part (especially one whom has MMORPG experience).
Secondly, this is why Minori and Touya – failed as students, more so Minori (do or do not there is no try). Why would I bash these cool kids? It is more of a let down on the directors part again with his dimwitted MC and two sidekicks (le gasp – U MAD BRO). OMG, I just raise the “death flag” – LOL. I sure did. OK OK OK…..jokes aside. Why would I attack Shiroe the most notorious villain, Naotsugu the man I admire as a god (i mean the man as stickers of panties on the inside of his shield)… {Nervously looking all around} Akatsuki the uber ceiling ninja who could kill me 5 time before I could blink?
If everyone recalls in eps 4 I believe, did not Shiroe state he used the “Mentor System with these two” If Shiroe is what we all believe he is, these two “newbies” would have been told and explained the “Party Mechanics” (i.e. team work, agro, etc.). You decide now on what you think of the Grand Master Shiroe. Then there is the sidekicks…..after the twins joined the guild did not Naotsugu and Akatsuki state that it is their job to teach them? Would they not have also touched on “Party Mechanics” since they are all in the same guild and one day they will be grouping together? Finally, we had the Training Camp arc. Well IMHO, those instructors sucked ass and I learned how to play my Face Melting Lock better on my own.
OK, so I really do not blame the characters. I blame the director and how “he” portrayed the newbies plain and simple. He cast them in the most useless way. This went beyond simplifying how a group should work together. Minori is Mini-Shiroe with the Shiroe Guild book (which should have also explained “Party Mechanics”). Minori should have pulled out her own glasses and figured out what was wrong and how to manipulate everyone in the group without “pointing fingers” at what needs to be corrected. None of this tree hugging crap…..friendship comes with trust and bonds. I guarantee that the TEA PARTY didn’t start out “what’s your favorite color” . No I really don’t want her to be a mini Shiroe, I want her to stand up for herself like she laid claim when she bid for joining Log Horizon – “ I won’t let my weakness slow me down” or something like that
So,for the people that say other wise, you get the 5% due to the children’s shows that airs before all of this. This show can be directed to all audiences and kids do not need their hands held(All you need to do is insert flashbacks for this and the light bulb comes on).
Christ, kids these days know more than I do in MMO’s and other games. I used to do endgame raiding….Now it is more of a casual thing.
Oh and btw ….I never used a guide from the internet to play my class until endgame. Only to maximize my stats and DSP for raiding, not core mechanics(those I figured out on my own thru trial and error….plus the damn spell tip tool tells you what is does).
“First and foremost is that fact that the “newbies” are lvl 20+ (you are not a newbie anymore). This means (without a doubt) that they should already have basic MMORPG mechanics down.”
WRONG!
Going on a grindfest will net you 40 levels easy and won’t tell you anything about partying. Minori might know how and when to heal but it won’t tell her who to heal. Touya might know he’s a tank but how to tank well is a different story. Party is totally different when you team up with people you don’t know against teaming up with people you do and this kids, being kids, learned it the hard way.
Not to mention this is Isuzu’s first casual gameShow Spoiler ▼
Also partying is more intermediate level than basic. Basic comes in the form of “basic control”, “basic world lore”, “what are items?”, “what is a monster?”, “who are you?:character” and “fighting”, and will mostly be soloing and about themselves.
I don’t think Shiroe extended his lessons to include “comprehensive list of characters, skills, items and monsters”, which is why they don’t know anything about each other(rather, its obvious).
You do realize we’re talking about the newbies where Touya always blindly charged straight at enemies even under Shiroe’s guidance? He was still at that point here in the dungeon, until they started formulating proper tactics. At a low level things tend to be more forgiving, so they were still fine then, now shit was hitting the fan, especially since this dungeon is one of the relative toughest.
Furthermore, they did get pointers, but there’s a difference between knowing and understanding. And partying under guidance is different from having to figure it out yourself. Oh, let’s not forget that these mentors also train themselves and do guild business.
Also, there’s like 40 skills per class. So it’s not easy to teach someone what every other class can do.
@ Moon the spoiler is irrelevant due to this is not the LN/Manga I have not read nor will I read them. So if it pertains to what has been mentioned by others. I would still not count it. I’m looking at the NOW and the THEN. Not what may come to past in the future or a certain future discovery.
“WRONG!
NO – RIGHT! I have asked people I know that have played MMORPGS and posed this in “General Chat” in the MMO I still currently play. For the majority by Lvl 20 you should have a grasp of basic game mechanics. You should know your own class, how you want to play your own class(ie I play a Lock(Demo Spec….I wear cloth…I’m squishy, I have a health lvl that when is 0 I die. I have a Mana pool that when is allows me to cast spells – its too low I can not cast spells) I have powerful attack spells, I have control spell, I can summon demons…theses minions can act as meat-shields, some have the ability to seduce other NPC(ie crowd control). I know that there are others of my class that do other thing….why? cause I have a talent tree for special traits(my first point for said tree comes at lvl10). I know that there are other class…..how….cause I had to choose what class and race to being with(I may not know exact specifics of those classes but the developer of the game gave brief description that warriors can wear heavy armor and attack/defend…..I also know that other classes can heal or attack because of the same thing in their bios). Hmmmmm….to there are roles to play(defender/attacker/healer)
This has nothing to do with “a grind fest will net you 40 levels easy and won’t tell you anything about partying”. I never said nor implied that it did. You assumed.
So what if this is Isuzu’s first casual….your telling me that she is a mentally challenged person. Doesn’t know how to read her own items/spells/skills as to how to use them…Will use Bard as an example – lvl 5 spell “Can’t Touch This” info – cast time – instant – allows caster to protect themselves from damage/attack in baggy pants while sliding sideways left to right. This will last for 10sec. No upgrade – one hit wonder. She was pretty smart to enchant/buff Rudy’s Lava Ball spell the first time.
Minori should know who to heal. Cause everyone has a status bar….Touya should know how to tank cause Natsugu was teaching him…..As I said before….and which is mentions multiple times in the Training camp arc. Shiroe and the others and including the instructors have/had given them the info they needed to use for the dungeon crawl. Minori IS the groups Strategist . Shiroe mentored her for just this(hence the book) and no I don’t believe its an encyclopedia of info but of ….Party Dynamics 101. I also believe that Shiroe, because who he is, would have explained basic GROUP dynamics to Minori and Touya while mentoring them. IT was also state this in this arc…..agree or don’t is up to you…I would suggest going back and rewatch the esp. I did last night just to see if I misinterpreted something.
Partying/Grouping is the fundamentally the same…yes there are difference…I won’t contest….However I don’t need to know a person’s like’s or dislike to complete a dungeon nor do they have to been a friend….I’ve pugged group and finished with little to no problems. Exceptions would be with people that don’t know their class/role(again see above) .
NOW this is where the issue at hand comes in.
THE directors point of view is that due to them not knowing each other and nor being friends that they are having issues completing the dungeon. Minori states this when she slaps her face….She says this to RUDY as the explanation….”because I don’t know you, I don’t know what you like or dislike”. I believe Minori knows that the reasons are due to them not working as a team….like they were taught (see above) she states that to herself by saying “Touya’s thinking the same thing”. She’s figured this out by their 2-3rd attempt. I feel that the director is trying to make the kids group a Mini Tea Party. The director with MMO experience should have based on just that “teamwork” not friendship. Friendship is not a requirement.
@Micheal
“You do realize we’re talking about the newbies where Touya always blindly charged straight at enemies even under Shiroe’s guidance? He was still at that point here in the dungeon, until they started formulating proper tactics”
I expect them to fail the 1-2nd attempt…..by the 3rd is when it should have been brought up….not the next to last run in this past episode. That’s just plain stupid. Also see above.
“Oh, let’s not forget that these mentors also train themselves and do guild business.”
If you volunteer as an instructor – guild business stops – you took on a full time responsibility. Mentors have learned from their past experience at what works
“there’s like 40 skills per class. So it’s not easy to teach someone what every other class can do”
Yeah at lvl 90 maybe….but this kids are in their early to mid 20’s lvl wise….no way in hell that they have 40 skills and I wouldn’t expect someone to know all 40 of each specialized class or subclass.
“especially since this dungeon is one of the relative toughest”
Go left is the intermediate or go right for Beginner. Monster lvl 17-21ish. Per Shiroe the Burning Dead is roughly the same lvl as the parties average.
Quick Summary of me for Episode 16
Very good. The tension is really good build up. Even me, are now that Hyped Curious what will happen next.
The Emergency Network, is similar like in the RL World. Well, you can use Anime to “teach” some thinks to the Spectators. Like reading a Book to learn, the Anime show you things you can learn and use it.
Wisdom is good. But take the Wisdom into Action is another Book that only Life(Try and Error) and Experience can teach you
More to come, when Episode 16 is live here.
*Clap* *clap*
(Imagine Naruto’s Guy-sensei Thumb up here from me) Nice Done, minasan
forgotten…
I really like the Path, that the “Kids” are walking. Very good
I guessed right away that Rudy was a person of the land when Isuzu could not add him to friends list
Wow, I never really cared about the time it takes to cast a spell or recharge.
Maybe roughly but not down to how many seconds.
This episode gives me an insight at how pros play MMO 😛
From .hack to SAO and now Log Horizon, ‘trapped in MMO’ genre 😛
.hack was full of mythical fantasy.
SAO is grounded and pretty short and sweet (but the Underworld arc seems to be long).
Log Horizon is pretty grounded too and well thought out.
Log Horizon reminds me of SAO Underworld arc.
Anyway for those that catch up with the Log Horizon original literature, has it been revealed what is the cause of the them being trapped in the game?
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