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With the flashbacks starting to come to an end, we’re finally shown the moment where Madara was actually defeated by Hashirama—and with it, an emphasis on this week’s theme: what it takes to lead. As the First Hokage puts it so aptly, leading involves sometimes making painful sacrifices/decisions, and it’s something that just puts into perspective how things change when you’re no longer just doing things for yourself, but for an innumerable amount of others. To say the least, it’s definitely an unenviable position to be in—especially when that sacrifice involves killing someone who’s been a brother to you and helped co-found the village—but it’s something that also showcases how not everyone can be an effective Hokage and how great the previous ones really were. Granted, we’ve already heard a lot about the latter, and likely most readers already have that kind of view regarding them, but for me—this chapter really hammered things in a bit.
With that said though, the perspective element touched upon in this chapter feels even more notable when you consider how Sasuke’s listening to the story as well. It reasons that the way the First Hokage is explaining things could really give Sasuke a new perspective on why the village did what it did—why Itachi did what he did—and serve ultimately as the thing that changes Sasuke’s opinion on everything. Of course, I don’t see him pulling a complete 360 180 and literally joining the fight against Madara/Obito himself, but it sure looks more and more likely that at the very least, he’d allow the resurrected Hokage to fight. Though… admittedly, this is something that’s been kind of hinted at for a while now, so it’s nothing particularly surprising if something similar happens.
As such, I suppose this chapter doesn’t really end up any different from the other flashback chapters. It’s just filling in blanks for the most part and setting up for future events… though it’s taking a longer time than expected to do so. At least it looks like it’s likely to end with this chapter however, so it might be finally time to have some action to look forward to after this extended break from it all.
I hate to be that guy, but you’re thinking of a 180, not a 360. A 360 would just be Sasuke doing a little twirl while staying on his “I want to kill everything because vagueness!” path.
Ah right yes. Lmao. I always end up flipping that for one reason or another.
so basically the flashback just explains that everything in naruto is tobiramas fault.
Well it would be a epic cocktease to not let the Hokage fight after all this.
I hope the previous Hokages don’t join the fight, as they would end up stealing the thunder from the newer generation. I actually want to see how Naruto and Co. manage to find a way to defeat Madara and Obito on their own, which goes back to the semi-main theme of the series about newer generation surpassing the older ones.
The only reason I want to see the previous hokage join the fight is so the 4th can give Naruto the yin chakra from Kurama that he sealed with himself. That and another small interaction with Naruto and his dad would be nice since Kushina got a lot of panel time.
*Kages* “Now that we’ve finished explaining, it’s time to go stop Madara once and for all!”
*Orochimaru* “Sorry, but you’re participation would only interfere with my plans.”
*Orochimaru undoes Edo Tensei*
Lol dont forget Orochimaru would have to do this all while sporting a trollface.
So not a whole lot more detail on things. Though, based on subbed wording, Madara launched more than one attack on Konoha before it finally reached its climax with that last battle.
We still don’t know where Madara found Kurama in order to control him.
We get no other mention of Mito being made Kurama’s Jinchuriki (unless next chapter continues the story with Tobirama giving more information).
No sort of explanation as to why only Hashirama was capable of using Mokuton and, as far as we’ve seen, no other members of the Senju Clan were able to, even his father and Tobirama.
No more in-depth details to the fight besides the brief talking at the end.
Basically, Hashirama finally had to reluctantly accept that he can’t have things both ways. He either had to choose to continue try to convince Madara to work with him and risk putting Konoha and who knows how many others in danger until, assuming he even does, he manages to succeed, or choose the lives of all those of people and sacrifice his more and more one-sided friendship with Madara. It comes down to sacrificing a few for the good of the many and it’s something Itachi had to do as well, and it’s something Naruto will have to learn too if he expects to be a Kage. As good and kind a Kage may appear to be, I’m sure they all had to make such decisions at some point; some that could/would be widely condemned by the civilians and even by their lower ranks if they were know, hence why they have black op units for such top secret missions.
And, I’m sure many probably forgot (or don’t want to admit it), but this is basically what Danzo was going on about as well; doing what was necessary “for the good of the village”.
It’s true that we did not get to see a lot of explanations and characters like Mito and Kurama from Hashirama’s backstory, maybe the anime will provide a more detailed and a better explanation. I understand your point very well that sacrificing a few for the greater good is a necessity and Itachi and Hashirama(although luckier than Itachi) understood that being a Kage or being a leader is not just about one’s feelings or one’s personal interest but everyone’s wellbeing as well. Konoha would have been destroyed if those two Men didn’t do what they did and they did what they did for the sake of the village.
That being said I agree with you on Itachi and Hashirama but I humbly and respectfully disagree with you on Danzo. You see there’s a difference between self interest and the intersest of the village and that is the big difference between Hashirama + Itachi and Danzo. I explain.
1). Danzo is more like an opportunist who would use what ever means necessary to get what he wants. He has always wanted to be Hokage and for that He would do anything, remember he went underground with his foundation when Pain was attacking the village, he did not assist any of the villagers when they were fighting and getting killed by Pain just so as to step in and demand the title of Hokage when the damages have been done. It’s a good thing that Konoha had Naruto. He(danzo) almost sabotaged Tsunade’s better judgement to bring Naruto back to fight and stop Pain in which Naruto successfully did.
2).He is known not to be trusted at all not only from members of his own villages but from other villages as well just like when Jiraiya warned Tsunade to be carefull and beware of Danzo before He left on his last assignment before his death, or when Shikaku saw through his intentions when he brought up the matter of who would replace Tsunade as Hokage, or when Ao saw through his deception when he used Shisui’s genjutsu to force Mifune(the moderator at the five Kage summit)to make himself leader of the other four Kages. Even A(the raikage) hinted that his connections to Orochimaru may have lead to the death of Hiruzen Sarutobi the third Hokage.
3). There is a lot about danzo that is not known but one thing that we do know is that he is full of so many secrets that will be destructive not just to himself but to Konoha as well, he has a lot of connections to Orochimaru and just like my last point above A hinted that he was the one who was part of Orochimaru’s plot to attack and destroy the leaf. Tobi/Obito concluded that he was after Naruto based on the fact that part of his body is made of Hashirama cells and ten Sharingans he stole from the Uchihas when they were murdered. He wanted the Kurama the nine tailed fox from Naruto Uzumaki. He also cornered and stole Shisui’s eye when Shisui tried to help by using His most powerfull genjutsu to stop the Uchiha Clan from attacking the village.
4). His methods are too unscrupulous going as far as to use Shisui’s Sharingan(which he stole) to manipulate Mifune(the Samurai leader and the moderator of the five Kages) to make himself the leader of the ninja world(above all four Kages). Hashirama never used any jutsu or dirty means to unite major clans to create Konoha, all He did was to appeal to other clans including the Uchiha, although talks and negotiations doesn’t always work but that doesn’t mean what he did at the Kage summit was right either as a matter of fact that’s why talks don’t work when one resort to dirty tactics.
5). Hashirama is one that is willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of peace, as shown when He proved to His resolve to Madara when the latter asked the former to kill either himself or his brother to bring peace between the two clans(Senjus and Uchihas) but was stopped by the latter from killing himself thus earning His trust but Danzo will sacrifice anyone including innocent people. Some or you might say that it was for the sake of the village but don’t you think that goes to far, for instance if anyone from the other four village(Sand, Cloud, Mist or Stone) killed Konoha citizens for the sake of their village wouldn’t they in theory be doing what danzo is doing, for instance why is it good when one is doing it but evil when others are doing it. It was when Sasuke severely crushed him that he thought to sacrifice himself as to protect the ninja world(what a pathetic resolve) and he failed at that too.
6). Danzo using the power of Shisui’s Sharingan to indirectly make himself the head of the ninja world is the comparately the same as Madara Uchiha or Obito/Tobi using the power of the Sharingan to implement the moon’s eye plan to create a powerfull genjutsu that would put the world under their control, although Madara’s and Tobi’s plan are on a much higher level than danzo’s plan.
Despite my points above I’ll agree that Danzo has a little sense of honour but it pales in comparison to Hashirama’s and Itachi’s as both really put their lives and their reputation(in Itachi’s case) for the sake of their village and comrades but danzo will put half of the village or comrades for his ambitions.
1.) At some points, yes, definitely. At other times, it can be seen as extremist/fanaticism too.
2.) Can’t really argue there besides, weakly, “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions”, lol.
3.) Hard to say much considering Orochimaru’s whole zen-like attitude right now throwing things for a loop and indicating that the whole invasion was for an entirely different purpose, lol.
4.) Just like real life dirty politics and their politicians? lol. Not that EVERY politician is, but yeah.
5.) And this is where it comes to the whole “point-of-view” aspect. As long as mankind has its free will and individuality, tons of people will have different views on different actions. What appears to be “good” or “just” to one can appear “evil” or “unjust” to another and vice versa. Like while some countries may see US interventions as helpful, peaceful, etc, other countries may see them as interfering, butting in, imperialistic, etc.
6.) Sort of connected to 5. At first glance, it definitely appears wrong (I personally think the Moon’s Eye Plan is wrong too), but looking at it more objectively, it can be easy to see just why many would resort to such a move to bring about “true peace” (even those that may say they’d never do such a thing). Not only does it get the job done faster, but the plan would take away any differences between all of mankind, thus no real chances of future conflict or war since everyone will think, act, and believe in the same things, and everyone gets everything they want (besides being the ruler themselves). And if by some chance conflict/war does start to pop up again, it can just be wished away as if it never happened, thus ensuring continued “peace”.
When looking at it that, it can sound pretty nice and tempting to people; a world with no conflict or war. No battles over differences in beliefs like religion, politics, etc. Everyone being equal, with no “elite” class or low class and so on.
Of course, as Onoki brought up, it’s still not much more than a total dictatorship under Madara where no one has any true freedom. And it’d also be pretty bland world too. No one would have anything truly unique about them. Nothing to be proud of about themselves, nothing to make you stand out from others. You’d just the exact same model on the shelf as everyone else. Nothing older, nothing newer, never getting upgraded or anything.
That was a good debate, you really are a good debater and you actually made good points and I hope we can do it again, by the way Happy Easter.
A shinobi is one who endures, enduring hardship for the sake of the village, which is the crystallized form of the dreams shared by the shinobi and those around him.
So Sasuke now needs to decide, does he choose to endure the suffering he has experienced for the sake of the village, as Itachi did? If he does, then he is a shinobi. If not, then he is just another rogue.
youtube.com/#/watch?v=iFzGNNummXg&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DiFzGNNummXg
To be honest, although the fight was completly different from this, I find it a bit rushed considering how Hashirama used somewhat of the same tactic that Naruto did on Neji. It felt too …..well it just felt like that author had ended it unnaturally. The anime may likely expand it.
Sorry for bringing this subject up again, but I thought maybe it would be useful since we are ending the flashback. Although, some in the thread, said Itachi did inherit the curse of the Uchiha, to be it is more like inheriting the will of Hashirama. Hashirama said he would kill his freinds, his family, basically anyone that would destroy the peace of the village. Itachi was the same. Itachi killed his family, excluding Sasuke, for the sake of the peace created by Hashirama. However, I can now see why Hashirama was greatly impressed with Itachi in the end. Hashirama may be lucky to only “killed” Madara, his best friend, but Itachi had took a greater burden as he ultimately surpassed the 1st Hokage unique terms. Unlike Hashirama, Itachi had a loving father and mother but had to kill them, Hashirama’s stuborn headed father likely died of natural cause. Though Hashirama said he will kill anyone as well possibly his own brother, for the village, Itachi was able to find a possible way to save his Sasuke while bearing the darkness that Hashirama had left behind. If Itachi and Madara had switched places, I wonder how the story would change in the end.
Only the results of their battle matter in the story at this point. Not what techniques and moves were used.
oh and sorry, I just notice the video was defective
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lfmmw6dJWc
Now that the backstory is almost over I’m kind of hoping for some action with the revived Hokages, maybe a rematch between Hashirama and Madara or maybe, Orochimaru would participate this time and using the four Hokages for the battle and by the way am I the only one that wants to see the revival of the massacred Uchiha Clan. I know that using edo tensei to revive the Uchiha will prolong the war but Tobi/Obito wouldn’t have forced Kabuto to teach him the edo tensei jutsu for nothing, I also figured that the couple of sharingans in his hideout wouldn’t be for nothing, He can simply extract some DNA from those eyes and use so many white zetsus for human sacrifices and bring back the Uchiha Clan to participate in the war. That would be fun.
If there were a rematch between ONLY Hashirama and Madara, I’d actually see Hashirama possibly LOSE in terms of the battle itself. Madara now has Hashirama’s own Mokuton abilities on top of his own Uchiha abilities AND has the Rinnegan and whatever extra abilities that grants (like the ones Nagato’s paths used, the “perfect” Susano’o and whatnot). So it would have to down to some kind of deus ex machina/pretty speech/moment of stupidity thing probably, lol.
Even still, with both of them under Edo Tensei, it wouldn’t matter who was the more powerful one as neither of them could die, have infinite chakra, and regenerate from whatever damage the other does. x_x
…..and so they continue to fight through all of eternity, the end.
Kishimoto:”Top that Kubo!”
But on a more serious note, is it possible that someone else is manipulating/working with Madara?After Hashirama stabbed Madara he looked up at the mountains as if he noticed something – or am I just over thinking this.
Orochimaru. It’s always Orochimaru, even before he was born.
I honestly think the 1st Hokage made the right decisions in respect to how he dealt with Madara but I can’t help but think that his brother, the 2nd, ultimately caused the deaths of the Uchiha (which also lead to this war). If only he used a little foresight into helping to select a more suitable successor things surely would have gone differently. That said, I really hope this wraps up the flashbacks.
That’s true, what Tobimaru did to the Uchiha was wrong and unfair. It may be true that the Uchihas and the Senjus used to be enemies but the Uchiha Clan deserted Madara for his pugnacious attitude so he(Tobimaru) should have trusted them a little or at least gone a little easy on them had he done so then maybe many in the Uchiha would most likely not have wanted a coup de etat.
Hey gave them there own section of Konaha and didn’t allow a majority of them to go on mission that would endanger their lives. SOOOOOOOO horrible!!!
From what we learned, I’d say the fault of the coup lies primarily in the Uchiha Clan members who secretly still followed Madara’s beliefs as it was said that there were a number of them.
Right… the Uchihas still had Madara’s “belief” when they voted for Hashirama!
And the “special corner” is essentially a prison so that they can be watched over by the ANBU agents… Tobirama is the root of all the problems but noooooooooooooo… it’s the Uchihas and their evil eyes, bah
I found it interesting that despite Hashirama doing what he could for the greater good and what he thought was the right solution, in the end he recognized that Madara did predict bad things happening like what happen with Itachi. I think it makes Madara a better character that even though he was a villain towards the end to the village in a scenes, he was really a good guy that wanted a better solution to a greater good.
I believe if Sasuke does change his opinions on vengeance, it would lead one to think that what Itachi sought out to do for the sake of Sasuke, wasn’t at all in vain to begin with. Itachi Uchiha deserves so much recognition , since he has literally shown us, time and time again, what it means to sacrifice for the greater good. It is a shame that most of what Itachi did was misconstrued to be motives of evil, and was used against him. With the truth of his actions probably never coming to light for the rest of the Shinobi world. Nevertheless, even in death, Itachi rocks.
Conversely, Hashirama’s speech and example show that Naruto lack this particular trait that Kages require, the willingness to sacrifice what’s dear to themselves for the village. No doubt Naruto would die for Konoha, but his repeated claims about ‘saving everyone’ show he can’t even fathom such a choice, and, in trying to save everyone, may in fact fail at saving anyone because of his indecisiveness.
This is also why I hope Kishimoto isn’t trying to redeem Sasuke, because it would give Naruto a way out of this choice – if Naruto ever became Hokage without having to make this kind of sacrifice, it would cheapen both his achievements and the former Kage’s.
In fact I’d really like to see Hashirama slapping some sense into Naruto, for a reversal of what usually happens.
It’s something I constantly bring up in debates in saying that Naruto would NOT make a overall good Kage now or even in the near future.
He definitely possesses the power and personality to be one, no doubt about that (even if it’s now largely due to the power of a Biju like Gaara and Yagura), but he really lacks the mental capability to be one as being a Kage, much less even just a Chunin, requires both power of body AND mind. Thinking quick on your feet in the midst of battle is one thing. It’s an entirely different thing to be a good tactician/politician capable of planning battle strategies beforehand and effectively leading your troops on the front in an organized force. Sure, Kages have military advisers and planners to ASSIST them with such things, but it’s not like the Kage themselves aren’t expected to be able to do just as good, if not better job than those advisers should they be made unavailable for some reason.
And, as you also bring up weird d, there’s the fact that Naruto is never willing to make any real sacrifices of anyone other than solely himself for any reason. As I brought up in my post above, every Kage, no matter how kind they appear to be, has more than likely had to make decisions that came at personal cost to themselves or someone else to ensure the well-being of their village. While not every one of them probably likes the decisions they’ve had to make, they also knew that they couldn’t/shouldn’t let their personal emotions/attachments interfere with their judgment (as Naruto tends to do, and as A and Tsunade had also done sometimes) lest they end up paying the consequences for those poor, emotionally based decisions. Naruto seems to forget that HIS OWN FATHER made such a decision by sacrificing HIM, his own son, to contain Kurama and keeping him out of “Madara’s” (Obito’s) hands.
Naruto also hardly ever seems to look at the reality of things around him, and when others TRY to make him aware of it, he just stubbornly refuses to accept it (he’d “rather be stupid”). As I said last chapter, having noble ideals is fine, but if you lack an equal amount of realism, then those ideals are most likely going to fail. If Naruto expects to be a Kage, then he’ll have to be able to look at how the world is working around him BEYOND his narrow idealistic outlook and beyond Konoha and those closest to him, how the politics work, and think about the consequences of what decisions he may have to make. Right now, it still appears like such a black and white world to Naruto, when it’s constantly shown many shades of gray.
Hell, has Naruto even taken a life so far outside of the Six Paths (which were already dead bodies to begin with both times) and white Zetsu clones (which aren’t really real “people”)? I mean, outside of added fillers and movies, I don’t immediately recall Naruto himself actually killing someone with his own hands. Either he magically converts them (like Gaara, Nagato, etc), someone else finishes them off (like Kakuzu), or they kill themselves (like Haku, Nagato, etc). I mean, lately, after thinking about it, it feels like Naruto is the one “being handed things” a lot more than Sasuke.
I completely agree with you, and the Third was a good example of personal feelings interfering with what had to be done when he let Orochimaru go – ironically it must have been his leniency in this and his idealism that led Danzo to go behind his back, not because he was power-hungry, but because it was actually necessary.
Well, Naruto’s lack of maturity can be explained another way : how can you expect him to grow up when all he has to do is look at people in the eyes and say ‘I don’t go back my word, it is my way of the ninja’ and POOF, they are magically converted to his view. I’d love to see someone calling bullshit on this and say they don’t give a damn about a brat’s ninja way.
Anyway, you expressed what I trying to say better than me : if Kishimoto redeems Sasuke, I’d feel like Naruto got things handed to him.
You also have Tsunade who never marked Sasuke as a missing nin after his defection from Konoha, even after 3 years, due to her personal and emotional connections to Naruto and Sakura.
One of the times someone did call out Naruto’s BS was when Naruto tried to beg A to not kill Sasuke. I just had to applaud A for taking that begging, crumpling it up, throwing it on the ground, and stomping it to dust before bluntly laying the reality of things out in front of Naruto.
So after giving Tobirama so much shit and being hard on him, Madara did exactly as he said he would. He not only turned his back on the village but tried to destroy it because it wasn’t what he wanted. He was an egotistical nutjob all along.
So while Tobirama’s racism is wrong, he was right in this particular case.
How funny.
When your prejudice turned out to be correct, it’s not prejudice, it’s accuracy.
One could just as easily argue Tobirama’s racism drove Madara into corner and was left with no choice in the matter.
Don’t make excuses for him. He didn’t have to make ‘Destroy Konoha’ his agenda.
I’m just trying to point out that a little trust and giving someone the benefit of the doubt can go a long way.
Yes, but not in this case. If this hadn’t pushed him, something else would have. Madara was a wild card and Tobirama knew it. Whether he knew it because he can read Madara or because he’s a racist prick is debatable, but he saw the Madara that Hashirama refused to see. The one that should not become Hokage, especially without democratic process.
This is mostly just me but from what I have seen people tend to be good people if you expect them to be good people(or at least try) and vice-versa for a negative approach.
At least we’re done with the flashbacks. For now.
There’s one panel after Hashirama jumps off his summon, and is just a straight view of Madara’s sharingan. Maybe I am reading into it too deep but my impression was at that point Hashirama may have been brought into genjutsu. Probably something they will touch on if/when Madara and Hashirama meet again. I had a good chuckle at the wood clone. At some point in the ninja world they must stop being surprised at clones.
At some point, the revived Madara commented that Hashirama’s wood clones are perfect and completely indistinguishable from the real body and chakra. This was probably the first time he saw Hashirama’s clone and wasn’t expecting it to be this indistinguishable what with his sharingan.
Maybe Madara is just pulling off his version of Lelouch Lamperouge now. All the hatred will be concentrated on him so the world will be at peace lol
My plan is going along quite nicely.
Doesn’t it always?
Sometimes you need to let people hear your story in order for them to understand.
I know no one thought of this before but I think Madara was actually a twin and they kept this a secret for a long time. When Hashirama killed Madara, the twin sought to get a revenge.
I thought the first hokage’s wife took in the 9 tails during the fight….?
The title of this post reminded me of This
Madara didn’t die right? after the final blow?
Because he looked dead to me… (if u paid attention Hashirama stabbed him right in the heart)
He awakened the Rinnegan shortly after the fight, perhaps that’s how he survived
Ugh, Kishi really outdid it with his asspulls this time, surprised no one has pointed this out
I know what Sasuke’s choice is going to be, it’s going to be not only to destroy Konoha but to destroy all the the other four villages too( Suna, Kumo, Iwa and Kiri ).
Probably, as it’s been, similar, yet opposite to Naruto; “Get rid of the ninja system”.
Naruto would get rid of it through pretty deus ex machina speeches to everyone.
Sasuke would get rid of it by destroying everything that has to do with it (yet, hypocritically, not himself).
Here’s the History of Cycle of Hatred vs Love worth Mentioning.
1).Elder Son of the SOTSP vs Younger Son of the SOTSP.
2).Descendants of the Elder Son(Uchiha) vs Descendants of the Younger Son(Senju).
3).Madara Uchiha vs Hashirama Senju.
4).Orochimaru vs Jiraiya(Not necessarily Descendants of the First Pair but similar pattern).
5).Obito Uchiha vs Kakashi Hatake.
6).Sasuke Uchiha vs Naruto Uzumaki.
When will this cycle ever end and if it does, will Hatred destroy and kill Everyone or will Love conquer and Save Everyone.
Poor me…The entire generation of great dead warriors was resurrected. Only me was left in the dark bottom of the sea. Damn you Orochimaru! Even after I had shown you the secret hole to peek into Tsunade’s changing room, you didn’t resurrect me! I will never forget this!
Sorry my dear friend Jiraiya, it appears that as of now that I don’t have any use of you but if I do I’ll be sure to send Kabuto or any of my lackeys to dig you out of the ocean so that you can fight for me in the mean time keep on sleeping with the fish and by the way I don’t know what secret hole to Tsunade’s changing room you’re talking about if there was ever such a thing I don’t need it. I have my own ways or getting to Tsunade even if it is as silly as peeking in her changing room.
yours truly,
Orochimaru.
this chapter gave me a lot of feels because i kept on thinking bout their bond and friendship and how it all ened in a fight.