Random Curiosity

Fate/kaleid liner Prisma Illya 3rei!! – 09 »« Fate/kaleid liner Prisma Illya 3rei!! – 07

Fate/kaleid liner Prisma Illya 3rei!! – 08

「人と道具」 (Hito to Dougu)
“People and Tools”

Choose.

Rin & Luvia Are Useless

Before this post gets heavier than Luvia’s oppai, some goofy stuff. Just how useless are Rin and Luvia? To Illya’s side, that is—they seem to be marginally useful foot soldiers for the Ainsworths, even if they suck as house meido. (Related: I sometimes feel like Prisma Illya is an excuse to force Rin to spend most of her time as a meido, and now Luvia is in on the fun. I’m not complaining.) Combined with Illya’s lone magic circuit, it’s a damn miracle that she was able to regain her body before Erica finished stripping it. (That rich loli is totally done for, for so many reasons.) I can’t wait until Rin and Luvia regain their senses so they can feel properly ashamed! *shakes fist*

When It’s Okay To Hurt, and Even Kill

This might be a goofy magical girl anime, but we’re about to get into the philosophical and ethical weeds. Like that one guy from Jurassic Park said, hold onto your butts.

When is it okay to hurt someone? Illya said “not without reason,” and that’s the crucial distinction. “Thou shalt not kill” has always been negotiable, at least on a societal level (war, crime fighting, statistical murder that comes about because of the imperfect machinations of human society). So when is it warranted? There’s not always a clear-cut answer.

This section is actually a lead in. Chew on that, and we’ll finish up after we tackle another ethical quagmire.

People As Tools

While the hurting/sacrifice question is a potential morass, it turns out that this one is far easier to find the line on. I feel like Angelica’s “What makes you so different than us?” argument was meant to sound a lot more insightful than it actually was, because the question is simple: it’s a matter of degrees. And degrees are important.

Angelica asks what’s the difference between the Ainsworths treating people as tools, and Illya using the power of the cards—stolen as it was from heroic spirits. The answer: it’s the lesser of two evils, to be honest. The Ainsworths use conscious, sentient, free people as tools. Illya occasionally uses the embodiment of formerly sentient (and now disembodied, after previously being totally stark-raving mad) heroic spirits, who were once living people (or gods, or what have you). In this case, it’s the difference between someone who captures and sells people in slavery, and someone who eats meat. You can make a moral case against both—even the most determined carnivores might agree that killing animals for there meat is wrong, if we were able to science/magic up steak and chicken breasts some other way—but one is clearly far worse than the other, even if an ideal world would see neither.

Basically, get off your damn high horse, Angelica. While the question of whether you’re in the right is still open, the question of whether you’re bastards is long settled.

Miyu, or the World—Choose One

Nations ask men and women to risk life and limb all the time. As soldiers, as police officers, as fire fighters, and in hundreds of far more mundane jobs, people sacrifice themselves for others all the time—fewer now, thankfully, now that war deaths have seen a drop unprecedented in human history (after peaking to a level unprecedented in human history, granted), but the sacrifice remains. The few sacrifice themselves—either physically, or with time, effort, and resources—for the many all the time.

Would you yank them off their battlefield, whether figurative or literal, if it’s where they’ve chosen to be?

Some viewers are going to act like the “Miyu vs the World” conundrum is an easy choice. Some of you reading this may even comment to that effect. I’d argue that it’s not. I’m not a big fan of utilitarianism, but there is a certain level after which the math checks out. If Miyu’s death can truly save the world, she could save millions, even billions—not to mention all the plants and animals on the planet too. But is such a world worth saving?

Hell if I know, man. First we really need to know what Miyu thinks. Second, I’d give a damn lot more thought to an alternate way, though avoiding sacrifice is not often how we humans have operated. But mostly, I’m just thoroughly pleased that Prisma Illya has decided to introduce a moral quandary where the correct side is not obvious. While Illya and co are still our protagonists, that doesn’t mean they have to be the good guys, even as the Ainsworths could be on the right side of history even if they’re total bastards.

I will say that, as an American who was paying attention to geopolitics around the turn of this latest century, I get extremely uncomfortable when people start asking whether others are willing to become villains. That’s not how sane people should think. Though if we’re being honest, most conflicts are fought between two (or more) sides of bad guys, and all that matters is which ones the least/most bad, and which side is yours.

But I digress. Miyu, or the entire world. Choose, Illya.

tl;dr: @StiltsOutLoud – If you could save the world for the price of one girl’s life, would you do it? Will Illya? #prisma_illya s4e8

Random thoughts:

  • Illya’s Sapphire version costume is lewd.
  • You know what the Ainsworths’ displacement magic means, right? They’re just like EMIYA. They took a weak magic and developed it so far that it became strong. They’re uber specialists, and they’re trying to save the world with it. They’re heroes of justice, just like him. Or maybe like Kiritsugu.

My SECOND novel, Freelance Heroics, is available now! (Now in print!) (Also available: Firesign #1 Wage Slave Rebellion.) Sign up for my email list for a FREE prequel short story. At stephenwgee.com, the last four posts: Freelance Heroics in print, and other matters, Freelance Heroics is available NOW!, I love sales jobs, and Good realism is character realism.

 

Preview

August 25, 2016 at 11:47 pm
68 comments »
  • August 26, 2016 at 12:24 amSmokex365

    A little girl being forced to sacrifice herself without any say-so on her part or a world already dying? Easy, from a reader’s point of view. Especially when we know how the Grail tends to corrupts wishes and distort them far beyond the intended result. Plus, the world is already well on its way to dying.

    I’d have a hard time justifying the existence of a world that I have no connection to over an innocent girl who just wants a little happiness.

    • August 26, 2016 at 2:06 amStilts

      First: called it.

      Second, we don’t know what Miyu thinks. And yeah, we can totally trot out the “She’s too young to make this kind of decision,” and true enough. But that line of thinking shuts off discussion, and where’s the fun in that.

      ALso, your connection to the world shouldn’t have a damn thing to do with morals. I only have a tertiary connection at best with a few people on the Indian subcontinent. That doesn’t mean I don’t care what happens to everyone there.

      • August 27, 2016 at 11:09 amhaseo0408

        To be honest I don´t it´s worth it, sacrificing an innocent little girl is never the right choice, a world that chooses to save itself that way deserves to be destroyed, there must be a limit of what you´re willing to do for a just cause or so to speak. Besides. I think this is a tricky situation, this añternate universe doesn´t feel like the good old Fate worl we know, it feels like Notes, another work of Type Moon where the Earth is dying with almost the same symtoms and in that universe the humans where the ones responsible for killing the planet.

        All that above and the presence of Tanaka, whis is big misteru but I have a few ideas about who she is, makes me think that humans did this on themselfs and if that´s the case then they truly deserve what is coming for them.

    • August 26, 2016 at 2:12 am1993espada

      We don’t know if this grail would twist the world, because it wasn’t tainted by Avenger.

      • August 27, 2016 at 11:11 amhaseo0408

        An all powerful magic tool that can grant any wish you could have? It´s definitelya trap, there no way such a covinient could exist not even fantasy without some sort of horrible consequences of being one big fat lie.

    • August 26, 2016 at 4:26 amBlahto

      I agree with you except the corrupted grail part.
      We don’t know if it’s the same grail…….

    • August 27, 2016 at 9:28 amdean

      As someone who has read Angel Notes it is imo easier to sympahtise with the Ainswornths, given how their world is apparently headed to a similar fate as the one from Angel Notes. Maybe they are even the same? That would explain why Prisma Illya has the “Liner” in the title. Still they don’t have to be such jerks about it.

    • August 29, 2016 at 9:18 amTheVoid

      It depends on the tool and the wish actually. Using a quantum alien computer like the Moon Cell is capable of granting wishes because it can figure out how to do it, regular grails can’t really grant something like Kiritsugu wanted in Fate/Zero because he has no idea how to make his wish work beyond wishing for it, then you corrupt grails either by outside forces or by the inherent nature of man (which is most of them) that summons a Beasts of Revelations to kill everyone like say Artoria wished to save the world the Beast would appear, kill everyone except those in Britain, and send those that died to Avalon to be ruled over forever by their King.

      And then there’s the wishes that mess up history and so a time singularity happens.

  • August 26, 2016 at 12:41 amewok40k

    Ainsworths being actually good guys, even if more on “ends justify means” end of the idealistic versus pragmatic scale was quite a surprise. The world being quite in a mess was obvious hint. I wonder about 2 things now:
    1.What is Shota-Gil’s agenda, and why is he combatting Ainsworths.
    2.Who or what on earth is Tanaka-san, and why is she against Ainmsworths, too?
    The entire world versus one girl is extreme form of the moral dilemma faced in Fate/Zero by no one but ultimate combat pragmatist of that multiverse, Kiritsugu Emiya himself.
    One thing I would consider before making a judgement is whether the girl in question volunteered for the duty or was forced into the sacrifice.

    • August 26, 2016 at 2:07 amStilts

      I’m pretty sure Gil-kun just wants all his power/stuff back. Or at least that’s step one. Not sure past that.

      • August 26, 2016 at 8:50 amL002

        Would be nice if Gil doesn’t take back unneeded aspects, like let’s say the Ainsworth can keep the adult Gil’s oversized arrogance

        http://randomc.net/image/Fate%20kaleid%20liner%20Prisma%20Illya/Fate%20kaleid%20liner%20Prisma%20Illya%203rei%20-%2008%20-%20Large%2018.jpg
        Would also be nice if Gilgamesh was fighting to help his adorable magical girl Onee-San. Gil would be a great sidekick
        Notably Ilya’s change in costume seems cute

      • August 26, 2016 at 1:07 pmkazakiri

        Gil-kun in true F/Zero Gilgamesh fashion is probably just doing something he finds entertaining at the moment.

      • August 27, 2016 at 11:15 amhaseo0408

        Gil-kun has his original personality that he had when he was a human-god hybrid in ancient Babylon that we all saw in Fate/Zero so he´s doing all he wants to do at the moment and it´s all finished he will mobe foward to the next funny thing that catches his eye. That kid is one big wild card when you try to predict what he will do next, best to just focus on what he is doing at the moment.

  • August 26, 2016 at 12:42 amThe Green One

    If you were told as an absolute true fact that you could save the lives of 1000 good decent people if you took a gun and blew the brains out of an innocent 11 year old child and this was a completely true statement, could you do it?

    Could you murder an innocent child in cold blood to save 1000 people?

    Think about that for awhile, this is tame in comparison to what Illya is being asked to consider.

    • August 26, 2016 at 12:24 pmHalfDemonInuyasha

      Aside from the general situation, you also have to the consider the fact that the “11 year old child” in this case is someone who Illya has come to be close friends with, which only really compounds the dilemma.

  • August 26, 2016 at 1:05 amBored_Onlooker

    That’s one really tough choice to make.Save the world in exchange of a single life or save the person and let the world to perish.

    Show Spoiler ▼

  • August 26, 2016 at 1:08 amkazakiri

    And thus we are now back to the dilemma that plagues so called “heroes of justice”.
    It’s definitely not a coincidence that we have “Emiya Shirou” locked up, and someone being anchored to existence using the archer(heroic spirit Emiya) card. I remember them saying that the cards were for a different family’s holy grail war, which probably means… Though what really bugs me though is why there are two berserker cards…

    • August 26, 2016 at 2:09 amStilts

      There are two Archer cards too (Gilgamesh and EMIYA). There appears to be at least two sets floating around. It’d be interesting to know WHY that is, though, and whether it’s just because there’s no hard-and-fast rule requiring the Ainsworths to stick to a single set, or if something else is going on.

      • August 26, 2016 at 6:01 amkazakiri

        Two archers, doesn’t really strike me as strange, might be because Gilgamesh was always there in the original, and the prequel. Let’s see, two sets, two magical girls… So not a coincidence… That said, the other unseen cards intrigue me… So that’s: Saber, Lancer, Rider, Caster, Assassin… Tanaka’s abilities does not seem to fit any of those, so we can rule out her having a card…

    • August 29, 2016 at 6:10 amHanabira.Kage

      It’s been mentioned explicitly that the Ainsworths are making the cards. That is, they could have a hundred cards of each class, and there wouldn’t really be anything wrong with it since they are creating the cards. This isn’t F/Z or F/SN, there’s no real limit to the number of class cards.

  • August 26, 2016 at 2:00 amIced Tea

    The most fascinating part of 3rei isn’t the fact that it delves into the moral ambiguities that always plague Fate but the fact that it puts those themes at odds with its own.

    And this alone is one of the pivotal moments which makes Prisma one of my favorite entries into the franchise. The answer to the question can’t be found through the usual bittersweet and tragic machinations of Fate but through the miraculous Mahou Shoujo manifestations of Prisma.

    It’s a tug of war between being a magical girl series and a Fate series. Much less of an identity crisis as it is a different yet interesting take on the entire debacle long since tackled by previous installments in the Fateverse.

  • August 26, 2016 at 2:07 amTraitorAH

    The story so far did not make a good case for the Ainsworths – I know almost nothing about this new world and their family has never showed any good qualities, asides from not finishing Illya and co the many times they could. On the other hand, I’ve seen plenty of Miyu’s struggle so I can sympathize with her. Show me more of this world’s suffering and maybe I’ll have a weight to balance against Miyu – like this, I can’t call this a choice.
    As for more Berserker cards…well, you’ll see soon.

    • August 26, 2016 at 2:14 amStilts

      As I said in reply to another comment above, one’s personal connection to a people or place shouldn’t matter a bit when it comes to morality. All that matters is what is moral.

      Think of it like this: I don’t know anybody who lives in New Zealand, but Passerby lives in Australia. Should that make Australia more deserving of salvation from an existential threat to me? Of course not. That’d make me a monster. Same thing. All that matters is what’s right.

      • August 26, 2016 at 4:45 amAex

        Maybe not more deserving, but it’d probably make you care more. And being “deserving” is subjective, anyway. To Americans we totally didn’t deserve 9/11, to Middle Eastern and even some Western European countries we totally did. Can’t say what another person or group of people thinks is right. Tie-in point: Erica was raised to think that if it has a use, use it, so Rin, Luvia, and even Illya (who she supposedly likes!) getting soul-stamped was a good thing to her since now they have a use, never mind that they were real people with real personalities. And that’s coming off what adults are teaching her.

      • August 26, 2016 at 4:57 amTraitorAH

        Then think of it like this: if you had to choose between saving Australia or New Zealand what would your choice be?
        Right and wrong are abstract concepts that we try our best to apply in our lives, but we are not abstract so these ideas cannot be applied perfectly. And when judging right and wrong, we are influenced by our emotions anyway – the very ideas of right and wrong started from seeing the pain of others and wanting to understand and cure it. That’s an emotion and I’d say they cannot be completely separated.

      • August 26, 2016 at 5:17 amTraitorAH

        Wanted to add – I actually agree with you as far as morals go. And even if I did not, I don’t see what counterarguments I could bring to the table. Sacrifice one person, save a lot, the math checks out. But morals and math are ideal things. And abstract. And I’m just a selfish guy, in no way ideal.

      • August 26, 2016 at 8:58 pmStilts

        @Aex

        Anyone who thought America deserved 9/11 is well into monster territory, or at least so devoid of empathy (or not using it at the time) to deserve a solid crack upside the head and a swift kick in the crotch. Don’t tar entire countries with that—some assholes and some thugs thought that, sure, but side from countries that are as close to insane like North Korea, most at least have the decency to realize that killing civilians is a dick move.

        That they’d prefer America stop doing the same over and over is another issue. Like I said: two sides of bad guys. Doesn’t mean both sides don’t have their monsters, or regular people who are vacationing in monster land.

        That aside, yes, morality is subjective in application and on the margins. I get uncomfortable when people act like all morality is subjective. I’m not one who believes a whole lot of things are black and white, but is rape ever right? How about slavery? I can’t think of a damn reason either one is anything but wrong. (And please, don’t take that as a challenge. Don’t be those guys.)

        @TraitorAH

        In that case, it, of course, depends. I’d assess the situation and do the best I could, if I (for some reason) was in the position to do anything. My knowing someone in Australia would not likely effect my decisions in a material way—unless, if on the margins, I could save Pa-kun. We’re all a bit selfish that way, and imperfectly apply our own morals. I’m at least aware of general human nature to know that.

      • August 27, 2016 at 11:18 amhaseo0408

        It also matter that the solution is real, they are all saying the Grail will save the wolrd but we all know what those artifacts are like, Boromir thoutgh it was brilliant idea to use the One Ring to save Arda and Isildur before him, it ddn´t end so well for them, don´t you think?.

  • August 26, 2016 at 3:27 amAndmeuths

    From Illya’s point of view, Miyu’s world is not her own. I am sure many Illya’s in many time-lines would obviously choose to let the other parallel world rot. It is probably a testimony to how well brought up Illya is, and how different and well establish her moral compass is from her other alternate selves, that the dichotomy of Miyu or a parallel world that’s not her own is a conundrum.

    Here’s a second thought: it is an obvious Chekov Gun that both Illya and Miyu are Lesser Grails. Miyu or the world might be a false dichotomy after all.

    • August 26, 2016 at 9:00 pmStilts

      Correction: Illya isn’t the grail anymore. Kuro is. That’s why Illya can’t amp out much magical power anymore, even if she can regenerate it while Kuro can’t. And that leads to another decision Illya probably doesn’t have the right to make herself.

      Good point on the chekhov’s gun, though. That just might work, somehow . . . .

      • August 26, 2016 at 11:23 pmAndmeuths

        If this is the case, I don’t foresee Kuro surviving as a separate entity at the end of 3rei. There’s a possibility that she might end up merging with Illya, and living as a second personality within Illya. This is not unprecedented for the Nasuverse.

        Show Spoiler ▼

      • August 27, 2016 at 3:21 amReddyRedWolf

        Show Spoiler ▼

  • August 26, 2016 at 4:14 amAex

    Okay, so, Angelica is full of it. I realize she’s a zealot, but she stacked that question like no one’s business with the tension of the situation. You can’t say we have even anywhere near enough information, but she’s using the shock factor to break Illya(and through her, Miyu), so I call shenanigans. What did they try before? How long have they been trying? Has the whole magic world been driving themselves nuts over the world ending for decades, or did one family stumble upon Miyu and go “good enough”? I also have a hard time emphasizing with the struggle of a family that’s living in a friggen palace with no signs of decay while the world rots. I know, “Doctors experiencing the disease doesn’t help them cure it” and all that, but come on! At least something to give them a link to the people they’re supposedly doing all this for, please?

    It’s obvious that they’ll go “Third Choice” here, which, while it’s a little disappointing to be so obvious, it still fits Illya’s character so I can roll with that.

  • August 26, 2016 at 4:30 amBlahto

    Why not save both?…. that’s just me being indecisive….
    go with a third(non-existent) option!!!!

  • August 26, 2016 at 5:04 ammr.anderson

    hmmm….reminded me with “sinking ship parable” in fate/zero

    in the end people can only save the closest to him/her.

  • August 26, 2016 at 5:12 am:-)

  • August 26, 2016 at 5:21 amSeedStriker

    The problem with Angelica’s rant is that the Ainsworth are in part responsible for the depleted mana of their world. Where did they think the energy for their magical fiascos came from? It’s easy to make the statement “We’ll save the world” when the rest of the world doesn’t know that you were part of the problem. Another thing: people? There’s no one left! And there’s the fact that Miyu wasn’t even asked (we’re talking about these magician nuts, so it’s obvious) if she wanted to save that world, and the fact that she has stated that it’s just a hellish place, so hell with the Ainsworth and their rotten world.

    • August 26, 2016 at 6:17 amkazakiri

      There’s a difference between, “Mana” innate available in the environment, and “Mana” produced by a magi. When you consider that the Ainsworths are like Emiya who took an inferior magic, and went the route of extreme specialization, it stands to reason that “Displacement Magecraft” is not a large scale ritual that requires use of “Mana” inherent in nature. I mean the Einzbern’s grail war, now that used the mana in nature, but had to recharge again, and again.

      Consider the cards, they’re not summoning heroic spirits, like in the Einzbern’s ritual, that one had containers, separated into servants prepared beforehand to summon the heroic spirits with their will intact. I think that the only reason they manifested in Illya’s world is because there were the containers for the Einzbern’s war available.

      Most likely the difference between using servants, and cards is, the upperlmit of Mana, per Hero.

    • August 26, 2016 at 10:44 ambelatkuro

      No they’re not responsible for it at all. They said it themselves that the cause of the mana depletion of the world is unknown. You think the Ainsworths have the capability to affect the world when all they have made are countless failure NPs and Mystic Codes that are disposable and only managed to refine a basic spell like displacement magic. The fact that they’re relying on a Grail means they have far less power to do anything, much less affect the world to make it run out of mana.

  • August 26, 2016 at 6:52 amMary

    I think alternate worlds complicate the issue of morality. I could make the choice to sacrifice a stranger for millions. I probably could make the choice to sacrifice a loved one for millions. However, from her perspective (and my own if I was in this situation), this isn’t her world. This world has already devoured itself, what responsibility does she have to it? What connection does she have to it? They’re all innocent people, yes. But they are as far removed from her, mentally, as possible.

    It’s the same reason we live comfortably in our corner of the world while war, destitution, and disaster strikes mass populations in other countries. Do we care? A little. Do we care enough? No, because humans are incredibly good at social filtering.

    • August 26, 2016 at 9:05 pmStilts

      True enough. That doesn’t make it right, but it does make it easier to bare.

      However, this is like Illya traveled to one of those war-torn areas and found herself at the crux of a decision that could save or doom millions. She might be able to go home afterwards (maybe), but she’s there now, and her decision will follow her forever.

  • August 26, 2016 at 7:39 amMike

    A loli magical girl > The world

  • August 26, 2016 at 8:15 amil-Palazzo

    A lot of discussion about the Ainsworth being “good guys” or not. I’d say, even the most evil people would have an incentive to save the world: to save their own lives. To be able to call themselves “Heroes of Justice” is just a delicious side benefit.

  • August 26, 2016 at 8:16 amAcesoldia

    im really curious where this anime is going to end, i dont see a good stopping point…any ideas?

    • August 26, 2016 at 9:04 amAex

      Probably just as Show Spoiler ▼

      so I’d guess we have a cliffhanger incoming if this is the usual 10 episodes.

      Stilts edit: Mark things that seem like spoilers. Also, word on the street is this is getting 12 eps this season.

      • August 27, 2016 at 5:16 amStuffedCarrots

        By the current pacing unless they REALLY rush it, that’s very unlikely.

      • August 27, 2016 at 6:00 amAex

        Sorry, Stilts. That was just a guess, but I’ll be more careful.

  • August 26, 2016 at 9:06 amzrnzle500

    While I’m not going to argue which is the more moral or even the better choice, I will disagree with Angelica’s contention that justice is on her side. Only if one believes the ends justify the means would that be the case. In Kantian ethics, treating people as tools (or means in his terms) is one of the main things you shouldn’t do. Just because they’re saving the world doesn’t mean they are just or even good.

    That being said, I’m sure they will find an alternative where the world is saved without sacrificing Miyu.

    Considering how dejected she was when she was being brought back to their world and how they have to keep her brother imprisoned to keep her in line, I suspect this is not voluntary as with say a soldier sacrificing themselves for the comrades and country. She also expressed a desire for Ilya to rescue her as well, so it seems she would rather not do it if she can. She might say she’ll do it but she’s clearly under duress.

    • August 27, 2016 at 1:22 amStilts

      Great point. Just because they have a worthy goal doesn’t mean they’re moral or right. Evil people can use evil means to do good things. The ends don’t justice the means, and anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something—something horrible.

  • August 26, 2016 at 9:22 amOkabe_Rintarou

    The problem with the Ainsworths using Miyu as the “holy grail” to save the world – do they even know the method of how exactly the world is to be saved? The holy grail might be omnipotent – but it is not omniscient, wishes only be realized if the wish maker(s) know the exact methods of making their wish come true whether the holy grail is pure, or tainted by Angra Mainyu (Kiritsugu in F/Z with his ‘kill the few to save the many’-mindset, or Saber wanting someone else to draw Caliburn from the stone, etc.)

    • August 26, 2016 at 10:18 ambelatkuro

      Yes they do. They cut out a chunk of stuff here actually before Angelica asked Illya to choose. Exposition about mana, prana, the state of the world, its fate if left alone and their plan on how to save it. To summarize: Show Spoiler ▼

      • August 27, 2016 at 5:15 amStuffedCarrots

        They did not cut it. Its in the next episode.

  • August 26, 2016 at 9:26 amWanderer

    Even if the Ainsworths are truly trying to save the world, would you really want to let them be in charge of it? These people are in-fricking-SANE. I would not, could not dare entrust the world to them. Complete monsters who are incapable of understanding any human thought process or the value of lives and souls have no business messing with the future of the world. These THINGS are villains, no matter what they may claim their goals to be, and the only true answer is to stop them, then seek one’s own solution to this mess.

    • August 27, 2016 at 1:38 amStilts

      Who ever said they’re trying to rule? They just said they’re trying to save the thing, not rule it. Unless it’s in the manga, in which case, agreed.

      I’d also worry about calling anyone things, even if they’re bastards—or, ya know, fictional characters. Stories are how we learn to be human, after all, and treating people as things is a bad habit to get into.

      • August 27, 2016 at 6:29 amAex

        Kinda interesting that you brought up that last point, considering that’s what most people hate about the Ainsworths. “Has a use? Use it. It’s human? So what? It’s useful.” It makes me wonder why they even care that the human race is going to die when they don’t seem to care about any of the humans that they meet, like they realized that they were going to die and just decided to save the rest of humanity for the hell of it. Even then, it doesn’t sound like they got anyone’s permission to do whatever it is they’re going to do if they’re hiding in a dead city, so in a way they’re kinda treating all of humanity as something that’s free will doesn’t matter. I doubt they think they have enough power to “fix” the planet when they don’t even know what’s wrong (that still bothers the hell out of me, by the way. Find out before you make things worse with your arrogance!), and if no one is supporting them I’d guess their “solution” is on the grimdark side of life.

        Small question for manga readers: has there been anything cut that suggested Darius and Co. have any intention of letting Luvia and Rin go after they’re done with Miyu? It wouldn’t make a huge difference, but it’d be something to show just a tiny bit of value in human free will.

      • August 27, 2016 at 9:13 amWanderer

        @Aex: There has been no indication in any medium of anything other than sociopathy from them. None of them cared what happened to Rin or Luvia at all. There is no sign that they recognize the existance of “people” at all: merely seeing them as independently-mobile objects that can be used or destroyed at a whim.

        @Stilts: If you choose to phrase it that way, I’m not sure any of the Ainsworths are human. However, characters that prove themselves to be as monstrous and evil as I know the Ainsworths to be lose the right to be recognized as anything other than monsters in my eyes. Erica is the only one who is genuinely worthy of sympathy, because she is “just” very very broken in the head.

        I believe I recognize your point about the danger of dehumanizing anyone, but at this point I am going to stand by my identification of these charaters.

        Re: the world, the issue is less about whether or not they intend to rule the world after they’ve saved it, and more along the lines of the fact that these individuals cannot be trusted to do something that so fundamentally affects the fate of every living being in the world, when they seem incapable of really recognizing that “life” is actually a real thing! They are absolutely not qualified to choose for anyone else, because all of their behavior indicates that they do not truly believe anyone else exists.

  • August 26, 2016 at 11:21 amWorldwidedepp

    (Related: I sometimes feel like Prisma Illya is an excuse to force Rin to spend most of her time as a meido, and now Luvia is in on the fun. I’m not complaining.)

    …and an excuse to show us Pantsu shoots

  • August 26, 2016 at 1:01 pmyoloalchemist

    This is really The Last of Us all over again.
    Show Spoiler ▼

    But the world is dying, and it has people who don’t deserve to go down with it. It’s a real moral dilemma alright.

    • August 26, 2016 at 2:13 pmyoloalchemist

      Now I’m gonna talk as if I didn’t read the manga already.
      Even if the process succeeds, who’s to say that would be the end of it? This is a world on the bring of extinction, so it must have many more problems than merely mana depletion, like societal and political unrest. Miyu’s sacrifice isn’t gonna solve those ones. I mean, in TLOU, even if the zombie apocalypse is ended, there will still be the hunters for example, and that problem on its own wouldn’t be easy to deal with. Maybe the fireflies wouldn’t be able to mass produce the cure, kinda mirroring Miyu’s energy being not enough. More of that, and it would seem the sacrifice didn’t do much after all.
      Because, and THANK GOD both TLOU and Prisma Illya are merely fantasies, when it comes to a world that is rotten and on the brink of extinction, you always MUST weigh the 2 sides against each other and, because the sacrifice is absolute and cannot be reversed, focus much more on the possible future developments of the rotting world following the sacrifice. Maybe even on the long term it wouldn’t warrant it after all. It’s not worth much making a sacrifice if you’re not gonna be able to solve those future problems. And that’s where finding a completely different solution that works better for everyone comes into play. This is a huge problem, so you can’t afford to be narrow minded.
      Morals are necessary for us humans, but in this case, clinging onto them and using them to justify everything isn’t exactly practical, is it?
      I highly doubt the Ainsworths have much beyond all their “hero of justice” bravado, because like the fireflies, they seem to be so desperate on taking this grim dark first step that they never thought of much beyond that despite all their knowledge of magecraft. I mean, with all that knowledge, you’d think they’d look deeper into this problem. Can you possibly entrust the life of your loved one to such people? Basically, I’m just highly agreeing on the point Stilts said about finding an alternate way.

      Now I do realize my comment is highly presumptuous, but the thing is, I love The Last of Us, and I love Prisma Illya. With this episode, they mirror each other more than I would imagine, so it’s just that I’m carrying the same sentiment I had towards the fireflies now towards the Ainsworths. Only, the Ainsworths have it worse because they have more power and knowledge and it seems they don’t know how to utilize them efficiently. Maybe I’m just disappointed in them as people, because I appreciate their goal, but their means is just….you know the rest of it. At least the fireflies were poor when it comes to research capability.

  • August 26, 2016 at 3:18 pmRedRocket

    A masive delima I like it. And the dilemma is being explained by two unreliable narrators.

    I would speculate that what ever caused the head of the Ainsworths to go insane is also connected to the world ending. This might have been the creation of the cards that he seams to be a master of. We do not know yet why the cards went to Illya’s world.

    I am of the opinion that when a devil gives you this type of choice always pick the known good action, in this case saving a girl who want’s rescue, as the lessor evil for greater good is normally not true. In this case Ainsworths have been acting as evil people and the children have been trained in a evil way. If the Ainsworth’s were good people but seaming very conflicted or sad about their actions I would be way more likely to trust them. As Gil is agreeing with the Ainsworth’s it makes the Ainsworth’s argument stronger but that might be because there is something in it for Gil or Gil is playing with the ethical question to test the good guys, for the fun.

    I could see the Displacement Mage craft as a cause of the problem if a Displacement hole had been made in the dimension that is leaking the mana.

    Nice charts on deaths it is great to be reminded how much better things are than they have ever been. The fact that news casts run on a everything is equally bad to keep viewers makes many not know that. Can be argued that the charts supports the position of a Army Colernal who taught a class on the Thirty Year War and stated that it was the worst war ever. Course was at the US Army Infantry Officer course that I took. The loses per percentage of population in WWII were higher but that was deaths in large part by massive bombardment and weapons of mass destruction other by starvation. In the Thirty’s Year’s War the killings, other than the massive amount of starvation and disease, were done by hand often in hideous ways to punish those of the wrong religion.

    I don’t see the sides in most of conflicts you described Stilts as both evil. I see them as battles between good people, at least by the standards of the time which makes them quite tragic. It the causes of the wars that you find the evil especially in things that they though was ok, in example deciding territorial disputes on the battlefield. Reminds me of Horizon on the Middle of Nowhere were the all the deaths are caused by good people on every side trying to support their sides interests and recreate history in a evil system.

    Now Thirty Years war was a evil vs evil in the attempt to impose religious views on others that can not be supported from the source. WWII was good vs evil.

    I wish the chart did not make it clear that the Armenian Atrocities and other things labeled Genocides were a partial Genocide. This abuse of the world Genocide by the UN and advocates seams to infer that the Turks were fools to let the greater number of Armenians cross their lines and escape that the Turks should have killed all the Armenians like the Nazi tried to do to the Jews because using the word Genocide seams to make the acts equal, the Turks were not trying to kill all the Armenians they were just trying to scare them off their land. Both actions horrible but I am on the side that wants Genocide to only be used in the original meaning, a attempt to kill all of a group man, woman and child like in Rwanda or kill all the gays and Gypsy along with Jews by the Nazi.

    Ilya’s outfit is cute and sexy :)

    • August 27, 2016 at 1:55 amStilts

      The news has a conflict bias. Journalists like to report stories, and it isn’t a story if there isn’t some kind of conflict. That isn’t an indictment, btw—journalists are human beings, and we humans absolutely vibe on stories. It’s a problem though, just as it is in science, because sometimes the story is that there IS no story, or the study that needs to be done is the boring study that confirms what we already thought was correct.

      War sucked a whole lot more when you had to get in the enemy’s face, stab them with the pointy end, and hope they died quickly enough before their death throes took you with them. Also, biological warfare sucked for a while there.

      I’m actually being a bit cheeky with the two bad guys thing. All sides in pretty much every conflict THINK they’re the good guys, and from their point of view, they are—only history sorts out the good from the bad, and since that’s written by the victors, it can be a bit suspect at times. (Ex: Was Alexander really so great, or was he just a huge murdering bastard?) Mostly they’re just wars between two sides, with the amount of good and evil varying based on huge numbers of variables.

      I just feel it’s a good idea to remind myself (and others) that our shit still stinks, and to bear in mind that WE might be the bastards. Keeps us humble, which keeps us from actually becoming full-on evil bastards.

      • August 27, 2016 at 10:23 pmRedRocket

        “Don’t hate the players, hate the game” Is often the truth in history although this saying is often used by people who could not play the game thus they deserve the hate. But the saying is true often in history and even sometimes now. In the time of Alexander conquest was a acceptable action for countries by most of the ethical standards of the time. And Alexander’s achievements in city founding, spread of Greek civilization culture, and the library are considered of lasting benefit to mankind. Admiring Alexander because of his genus has little to do with right or wrong. Slavery was thought the price of your side losing. As your point on thinking of things back then it pretty much was we are people they are not so much or there was a justification why someone lost full person status. Although some Greek thinkers came up with a lot of modern morality in places it did not widely catch on.
        Now there are grey and evil sides in history, pirates knew what they were doing was wrong just did it anyway because it’s fun. Countries went off track of their normal morality and sunk lower in some bad actions recognized by the same people later.
        And of course plenty of my side is good the other side evil claims but the educated and war leaders normally thought the enemy was just doing the same thing they were doing, this position by the leaders made peace a lot more possible.

      • August 28, 2016 at 1:56 amStilts

        I dunno how much credit Alexander should get for spreading Hellenism. He didn’t start out to do that, it was just a by-product that we retroactively decided was good, mostly because the Persians didn’t write enough for us to easily take their side (whereas the Greeks in general, and Alexander in particular, were great at stories/propaganda). As far as middle eastern empires went, the Persians were apparently pretty lenient. Maybe it would have been better for that to spread.

        Even still, maybe it was worth it. I just don’t much like giving Alexander credit for it, any more than I like lionizing the Mongol Empire for the Pax Mongolica, when it came at the cost of 30 million+ deaths.

  • August 26, 2016 at 4:02 pmFuwa Fuwa

    Well, that was easy for Illya get her body back. But at the very least, she’s still stuck in this situation and didn’t end up needing convenient help to avert another near death event (at least not yet, could still happen) so I can actually look over that because no luck really factored into that event.

    But even with this dilemma of choice, some people have gone into the matter of stacking the deck and not making the best argument in Angelica’s case, but a few have gone into something I find more bothersome: Why now? What is it about this moment that Angelica shares the details of why Miyu is needed when they had the chance before? Why not have Illya be thinking about this choice over the course of most of the show rather than at the very tail end? Would have made her more hesitant in her early choices, really weigh her options, but now it just feels dropped upon with little means to explore that idea. Super glad we saw Bea be fascinated with her doll instead, that was worth watching (and the worst kind of silly, honestly can’t take her seriously as an antagonist at this point).

    But you know, I’ll give them credit, for the focus of being a more serious story, they do throw something for Illya and viewers to think about. Granted, most of it is foregone since it’s known to veterans and others that the Grail business isn’t really all that hot, and you see them fight in the next episode anyway, and overall, as others have said, it’s really a basis of what that world’s state is in (really on a verge of no return).

    But I’ll admit, they did something that I can’t really bash and explores a little bit of a neat idea. Makes up for the last few episodes and made me a little more interested in following this through.

    • August 26, 2016 at 5:10 pmRedRocket

      Yes one reason the Ainsworth’s late claim of superiority smells is them not making it from the start in some way. The only logical excuse is they are so smug in their righteousness and superiority and so convinced of others lack of value that they do not think there status is worth mentioning until it comes up. Such a dysfunctional and evil opinion makes their claim of being the solution suspect.

    • August 27, 2016 at 1:58 amStilts

      Honestly? If the Ainsworths aren’t going to be turned aside from their goal, and if they so thoroughly believe in their righteousness (a mistake in my estimation, that kind of false confidence, but that’s another matter), why do they give a fuck what anyone else thinks? They’re determined to do good by evil ways. Explaining themselves seems pointless. Angelica is only really doing it now because she got exasperated with Illya’s ignorance.

      It all fits well enough within character, so even if it’s subpar pacing, storytelling-wise—which I don’t think it is, but we’re allowed to disagree there—if it fits character, that counts for a lot. Character should drive everything.

  • August 27, 2016 at 4:53 amHammerheadcruiser

    I really think if a Miyu is going to be sacrificed to save the world, she should get the power to push the button. She can be as selfless or as selfish as she wants, It’s her being sacrificed after all. It’s not the kind of thing you should force on someone. That’s what Illya should be fighting for, to give Miyu that agency to decide her own fate. Though by that logic Miyu has already chosen, she escaped and never wanted to return. It’s the ainsworth family that forced her back.

    My running theory for this season is that Gaia (the spirit of earth) decided that humans had fucked things up too much and is now trying to reset everything. The ainsworths are working on a solution so Gaia sent Tanaka as a heroic spirit, Type or empowered creature of another kind to shut them down.

  • August 27, 2016 at 9:29 amdean

    As someone who has read Angel Notes it is imo easier to sympahtise with the Ainswornths, given how their world is apparently headed to a similar fate as the one from Angel Notes. Maybe they are even the same? That would explain why Prisma Illya has the “Liner” in the title. Still they don’t have to be such jerks about it.