Fate/Apocrypha / First Impressions

「聖杯戦争」 (Seihaisensou)
“The Holy Grail War”

Holy cow.

General Impressions

With everything reaching a fever pitch, this week’s episode was a nice reminder that in any iteration of a Fate show, no one is safe from getting killed. It’s been a while since the days of Fate/Zero where the darker tone really brought that fact to life, but I thought this week’s episode did a great job at setting the stage for next week’s finale.

Starting with Jeanne, boy was I happy that the story kept her mental breakdown short. Seeing how she hasn’t had all that much time devoted to her past, it would take some pretty big leaps for someone not versed Jeanne’s history to truly understand why everything that Gilles and Shakespeare broke her to the point that it did (me included). Luckily, our boy Sieg managed to show up just in-time to knock some sense into her while also demonstrating that he’s been hiding some real emotion inside that homunculus body of his. That said, I never thought that we were going to see Jeanne disappear this week. As a fairly important character that’s prominently featured in the opening and the ending, I thought there’d be some pretty powerful plot armor protecting her. Then again, I never thought we’d see her wield a sword (and if we’re being truly honest, she didn’t really wield it in a normal fashion), so I probably should have realized something bad was coming when she handed her flag to Gilles. By the end of things though, I’m glad she had an opportunity to show us that she was more than just this character who was constantly chasing after Shirou and fawning over Sieg. As the Ruler of this Holy Greater War, she stayed committed to her cause all the while kicking some ass right up to the end. (Also, I loved how Gilles manned up in the end and truly showed his commitment to the woman he loved.)

Moving over to Sieg and Shirou, goddamn was that a beautiful fight or what. As the two biggest players left in the game, watching the two duke it out was one of the best things I could have received this Christmas. With both of them opting to go head-to-head instead of falling back on magic, it was great to see them swinging and slashing as they tried to one up the other. Add in Sieg’s fantastic angry face and you could say that I was in a state of pure joy as the battle played out.

Overall, not too shabby for a pre-finale episode am I right? With the story leaving us on a giant cliffhanger and good number of servants still alive, I can’t wait to see how the story closes things out next week. Besides the Greater Holy Grail War, we still have to address Sieg’s lack of command seals (how is he still here and how is he still Astolfo’s master?) as well as just what the heck is going to happen with the giant Hanging Garden that’s still floating in the sky. In any case, I’ll catch you guys next week where we’ll hopefully get answers to all of our questions. See you then!

69 Comments

      1. That’s because Shakespeare can’t actually control those he summons, just their emotional state to some extent and what context. Shakespeare’s ability is powerful in its ability to affect change and instability within the target using their own life as a mirror to create existential and raison d’etre crises.

        Fye
        Reply

  3. Wow! I didn’t see that coming. A slight smile to see Semiramis survive her fight with Mordred.
    Got to give a hand to Shirou, I have a gut feeling he definitely survived the blast somehow and Sieg bearing the brunt.

    Quick confirmation, thinking back to when Semiramis told Shirou not to die before entering the grail, was this because he was backdooring the process of activating the grail before the tournament officially ended?

    Ghouche
    Reply

    1. The Greater Grail is meant to break down Servants and burn their souls as fuel to punch a hole to the Root. Therefore, Amakusa walking inside of the Grail was effectively suicide, and without Shakespeare’s backup, his magic arms, and his own iron resolve, he’d have been ripped art before ever managing to rewire the Grail.

      Bob
      Reply

    2. Seminaris is effectively a walking corpse right now, she has minutes left at most, Mordred destroyed her spiritual core with her last attack, no Servant could live long after that.

      haseo0408
      Reply

  4. Sieg now has the heart of Siegfried, Astolfo´s sword and finally Frankenstien´s Monster Noble Phantasm, the guy is a powerhouse that could put Shirou Emiya to shame!. I hope that Blasted Tree is enough to send Amakusa back to hell where he belongs, talk abou a hard to kill vermin.

    haseo0408
    Reply

      1. Yeah, when Shirou used EMIYA´s arm to get a power boost he pretty much destroyed himself very slowly in the Heaven´s Feel Route, on the other hand Illya was created to contain the power of Grail and Keyneth was born to serve as host to a Heroic Spirit so it makes sense they live to tell the tale after using all that power. Sieg is a true miracle, his body is that of a not very advance homunculus and even so he was able to sustain the power of Siegfried´s heart and now just look at the kid, after all it is said and done the Throne of Heroes might even reconize him a Heroic Spirit.

        haseo0408
        Reply

      2. Siegfried is the dragon-slayer who became immortal by bathing in dragon’s blood, and Sieg get his heart, currently Siegfried’s blood flows in the veins of Sieg. Sieg is immortal Siegfried.
        After gaining Saber of Black’s heart, his appearance physically changes and he gains a stronger constitution which leads Rider of Black to claim he can live for more than 100 years. However, while Siegfried’s body could withstand the dragon blood within it, Sieg’s body can’t. That is reason that the spots on Sieg’s hand where the Command Spells disappeared from turned black and his body gets dark spots like those of a Dragon every time he uses the Siegfried’s transformation ability. After use all of their Command Spells
        Sieg managed to barely maintain his human form thanks to the power Sieg obtained from Frankenstein’s “Blasted Tree: Lightning Branch of Crucifixion” .
        The lightning carries her will as written in Frankenstein’s notes and explained in the LN. Sieg activated the Siegfried’s transformation skill and received the Galvanism at once due to the lightning, so it isn’t surprising that he could eventually manifest Blasted Tree as he was already using Galvanism on order to spam Balmung during his battle against Karna.
        Blasted Tree has the power to make another Frankenstein monster, so it happened. Also this triggered Siegfried’s transformation skill. Blasted Tree has this ability inscribed into it. That lightning is basically Fran’s will, and she wished to remain in this world so that Sieg could avenge her of the terriblethings that Shirou and Shakespeare made the her during her battle against them. Also, by jumpstarting the Siegfried’s transformation skill, Sieg could regenerate much faster, just like Siegfried.

        Mahesvara
        Reply

      3. @haseo0408 Sieg was one of the homunculi allowed to be used by Caster of Black for usage as harvesting materials for his golems. Due to his unexpectedly high quality Magic Circuits, he was chosen to be the core of the Caster’s Golem Keter Malkuth (Adam). If you pay attention to the episode 4 (https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2003%20-%20Large%2002.jpg), you may realize that those homunculi that were discarded essentially had the same face as Sieg, they have been failed attempts a create a first-class magus homunculus with first-class Magic Circuits to serve as the core of the Caster’s Golem Keter Malkuth (Adam), since he was being done in order to consume energy, continuously requiring an infinite amount of magical energy after it is summoned. This function requires a core, a first-class magus, to power it. The quality of the core is reflected in the power of the golem, so those who boast the succession of a thousand-year-old Magic Crest are most suitable. And it is for this reason that those homunculi who were discarded had the same face as Sieg.

        David
        Reply

    1. The problem comes in the form of that “salvation”, Amakusa is trying to change humanity into something that´s nowhere near human, what is the point of doing that if we´re no longer the human race? That´s just selfishness of a man that never trusted the human race to begin with, if he did he should have realized the human spirit is worth fighting for.

      haseo0408
      Reply

      1. And, as Jeanne pointed out a bit, if Amakusa “destroys all evil” with his “salvation”, that also means there would be no good left in the world either, because like light and darkness, good and evil can’t exist without each other.

        While yes, the world is indeed filled with evil, Amakusa completely overlooks the fact that it is also filled with good. If it was only so full of evil like he’s deluded himself into believing, humanity would have destroyed itself long, long ago and yet we always seem to manage to pull ourselves back from the brink.

        HalfDemonInuyasha
        Reply

      2. It’s a bit more complex because as Amakusa says, humanity will end up reaching that state in the distant future anyway. The problem is that the journey to get that is also meaningful, and Amakusa is just a dead person forcing everyone to go along with his opinion, meaning he doesn’t trust humanity at all.

        shugosha
        Reply

      3. if Amakusa “destroys all evil” with his “salvation”, that also means there would be no good left in the world either, because like light and darkness, good and evil can’t exist without each other.

        Sorry, but this is exactly the kind of childish tripe I meant before. Do you perhaps think that for you to love someone there has to be someone else somewhere hating someone? I could buy the argument about forcing the outcome prematurely being problematic, but not this illogical dualist nonsense.

        Semiramis
        Reply

      4. @Semiramis

        There is no way there could ONLY be love or ONLY evil though.

        Even if things started out all sunshine and rainbows in a world filled only with love, there would eventually be jealousy due to loving the same things and that can easily become anger and hatred which would end up eventually spill over into bloodshed. Similarly, even in a world filled only with evil at first, there would eventually be people who would grow sick and tired of it and opt to stop it rather than blindly continue it.

        HalfDemonInuyasha
        Reply

      5. @HalfDemonInuyasha
        The fact that you’re still talking about bloodshed in the context of spiritual bodies shows that you’ve given very little thought to what life might actually be like if we no longer had our animal baggage to deal with.

        Semiramis
        Reply

      6. Amakusa is a little child incapable of undertanding the complexity of the human soul andthrowing a tantrum at everyone that disagrees with his insane methods, her action ar a clear reflexition of his lack of faith in the human heart. Besides, one thing is reaching the next stage in our evolution, another completely different is forcing humanity to change before our race is ready.

        haseo0408
        Reply

      9. I suppose it’s not a coincidence that the person going by Semiramis is also defending Amakusa.

        Rather than saying that good cannot exist without evil, I think it may be more accurate to say that the perceived value and appreciation of good is greatly reduced if you remove the possibility of evil. You do not truly appreciate the highs without at least knowing of the lows. For instance, Disney World is a magical place, in part because your regular life is so humdrum. But Disney World EVERYDAY will quickly dissolve into boredom and cavities. People giving to charity is greatly appreciated because it’s voluntary. If it becomes mandatory, it’s just a tax.

        (I’m pretty sure) There are studies showing that humans are the kind of creature that derives enjoyment not just from what they have, but also by how they compare to others. “Keeping up with the Jonses” as it were. Put another way, we are made happier by knowing there are others worse off. (Yes, we’re a miserable species).

        Likewise, what drives innovation is need. While yes, people CAN be more innovative once their basic needs are met (because they are then free to devote time and energy on something else), the question arises “WHY invent something new?” Usually, it’s for personal gain (driven by need or greed, which Amakusa hopes to eliminate), pride (which Amakusa is hoping to eliminate), etc. I suppose it could be driven by the desire to help others, but once we’re all spiritual bodies, we don’t need help anymore.

        Of course this is all based off a cursory understanding of Amakusa’s method. What exactly does it mean for the world-wide materialization of all souls? Does all humanity become like Heroic Spirits (in which case, I see NO reason why we still can’t do evil *cough*GILES*cough*), or do we all end up in some primordial soup ala Evangelion in which we are stuck in a perpetual dream that never ends?

        Blue
        Reply

      10. Also, if you want some “meaningful” Nasuverse logic. I think Fate/Stay says it all. The problem with wanting to be a hero is that it means someone else has to be in trouble.

        If no one is in trouble, then there are no heroes. No one to aspire to be.

        Whether this is a good or bad thing depends on your values.

        Blue
        Reply

    2. Amakusa ideal is childish and doesn’t take into consideration the numerous things that exist to threaten the world, from the prophesized return of the Umbral Star after its last assault against Earth 14,000 years ago, the fact that souls manifested by the Third Magic are still corruptible by outside forces like Angras Mud the Goddess of Vengeance or the Chaos Tide, and the fact that such perfect worlds are always pruned by Reality itself.

      There’s also the fact that Amakusa is a fallible, completely flawed human being. To the point he mistook his abilities for the power of God when he just performed magecraft without any idea he was doing it in life. Even an idiot can perform magecraft without knowing how like the blonde guy with Waver at the Clock Tower in episode 1. He can summon break the most powerful forms of magic without any idea how he did it.

      TheVoid
      Reply

      1. Even if that is so, unlike you our friends aren’t countering him with any meaningful Nasuversic arguments, just running on hormones and spewing kindergarten level tripe “philosophy”.
        P.S. Amakusa “is” a human being? 🙂

        Semiramis
        Reply

      2. Our Chuuni priest used Heavens Feel on everyone like Zouken and the Einzberns wanted. Everyone becomes immortal walking souls without any real need for anything so they stagnate. In other words, he wants to “save” humanity by basically eliminating human agency, despite the fact that this would alter one of the fundamental qualities of humanity with unforeseen (and likely negative) outcomes. Humans that do not have free will or the capacity for evil are not human, but something else.
        Kiritsugu had the same wish to “save the world”, but he didn’t understand what his wish entailed until Angra Mainyu laid it out for him, and then he flatly rejected the idea and considered it abhorrent.

        TropicaliaSoup
        Reply

      3. @TropicaliaSoup
        Why, pray tell, would humans not have agency in their spritual form when said agency is inherent to having a soul? Also, inevitable stagnation because certain animalistic needs are removed is a silly concept that completely ignores the human tendency to be more creative once the basic bodily needs have been attended to. What’s next, claims that God would inevitably stagnate because they have no real need for anything?

        Semiramis
        Reply

      4. This is proof that the Grail is a ritual that must never be used! Even in his inmaculate state it can become a tool of the most horrifying catastrophe, specially if you into account all the lunatics that are selected as Masters during the War. So far we had a man made monster (Kiritsugu), two serial killers, a chuuni priest, a magi with worst case inflated ego in the history of magic (El Meloy) and a guy which only carreer choice is Heroe of Justice (he doesn´t need introduction).

        haseo0408
        Reply

      5. I posted for Lelo on the episode 12 topic, but I will post it again.

        He’s just another psycho trying to twist mankind into what he want’s it to be because he’s decided he’s right.

        Kiritsugu tried this because it was the only option he had left that didn’t involve throwing in the towel and admitting all he’d managed to do was bath in the blood of collateral damage and build a mountain of corpses. He went for the grail because if he didn’t then he’d be admitting he was never anything but another psychopath slowly but surely making the world worse.

        Good intentions DO NOT absolve someone of any wrongdoing they commit in the name of that intention. You can argue if it was worth it yes but it does not undo the crimes a person has commited.

        lynlynsays
        Reply

    3. Basically the same plan in Evangelion, Code Geas, Ah My Goddess Move and a few others I can’t recall the name of. The key thing your missing is it is taking away free will and a drive to improve. Sort of Mindless, bodyless happiness without meaning.

      RedRocket
      Reply

  6. https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2024%20-%20Large%2032.jpg
    I can’t imagine the pain. I guess healing magecraft isn’t her forte.

    https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2024%20-%20Large%2018.jpg
    I now understand what was Ruler’s white outfit in the Fate/grand order game for. I am curious if Jeanne can fight while holding her sword’s hilt rather than the blade, unless that is the only way to her her Noble Phantasm.

    https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2024%20-%20Large%2011.jpg
    On the side note, like Achilles’s shield, I didn’t know Noble Phantasms can be easily lent and be used by others.

    Anyway, if Shirou was summoned by Kotomine in Fate/zero, I would wonder how things would have turned out.

    L002
    Reply

    1. With Achilles giving his shield to Astolfo, it only worked because Achilles gives away his things in his legend and Astolfo receives plenty of things in his legend. As for Jeanne’s banner, only Jeanne and Gilles can use it, since he was her right hand man and right beside her during the Hundred Years’ War.

      Bob
      Reply

      1. In fact Heroic Spirit that witnessed Jeanne D´Arc acts and fought by her side can use her Noble Phantasm Luminose Eternelle, godd old Guilles just happens to be the right man in the right place for once.

        haseo0408
        Reply

  7. https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2024%20-%20Large%2003.jpg
    This felt dissappointing. It’s not Gilles de Reis of Fate Zero. I expected him to go full blown Ryuunosuke COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

    https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2024%20-%20Large%2012.jpg
    Its sad to see Jeanne go but hey, that means Astolfo can have Seig all to herself now.

    Watching the fight scene, I can’t help it to find that ufotable does it miles better.

    Velvet Scarlantina
    Reply

      3. Interesting fact: a Servant can have children if they are incarnated by the Grail, works even better if the Grail is in its inmaculate state and does not corrupt the mind and new body of the heroe like it did to Gilgamesh. Jeanne had this conversation with Sieg during their date in the light novel if I remember correctly, the poor girl tought Sieg was interested in having kids with her and had a freak out, well and that might not be off the mark now.

        haseo0408
        Reply

  9. Hmmm…Am i the only one that was enjoying this episode until Sieg starting fighting ‘with the power of Frankenstein”? Where the heck did that suddenly come from out of no where. Talk about pulling things out of your….air…I would have prefered if Jeannie was the one to deal the final blow by using her life as sacrifice…this pulling deus ex machina plot devices is not working for me very much when it comes to Sieg for what now? the 10th time? Anyways…by and large the fight was good to look at but I just lost interest at that point. Someone needs to explain how he is doing all this.

    Kurik
    Reply

    1. It’s actually not a deus ex machina. In fact, pretty much nothing has been. However, the problem is that, from what I’ve seen others discuss, Fate/Apocrypha is suffering similarly to stuff like Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei in that the source material does explain most things that happen in greater detail, but there is actually quite a bit behind how/why they happen to where explaining the entire thing in detail would probably take too long. It’s one thing to take your time to read it in a Light Novel, but something else entirely when it comes to watching something in constant motion.

      Diehard fans may not mind, but there are just as many, if not more casual fans too, so things have to be balanced to cater to both, and taking so long to explain 1-2 things that could potentially eat up an entire episode (each) would end up killing the flow of things and/or bore a lot of the audience.

      HalfDemonInuyasha
      Reply

    2. @Kurik Wow, a Catholic saint by killing a human being.
      If you would have paid attention to the episodes, you would know that Jeanne never attacked a heroic Spirit or a human being long the entire show (Jack isn’t a heroic spirit but a evil, Vlad in episode 12 and Atalanta in episode 22 were no longer the heroic spirits but abominations)
      Shirou Kotomine touched the Grail in Third War and he has obtained permanently the Ruler’s body, thus becoming a human being, and Catholic saints don’t kill human being. That’s why the attack Jeanne’s was directed against the grail”

      Skylark
      Reply

      1. I don’t have a problem with Jeanne not killing and I am fine with her directing the attack at stopping the greater holy grail…My disappointment is Sieg constantly pulling power seemingly out of nowhere to forward the plot. It would have been better if when Beserker died they showed even a small scene of him glowing or a petal landing on him or something so we are left with a mystery which is revealed now but no – he suddenly has her power. That’s not good story telling. We are told he should be dead or near dead already or used up his powers but he seems to come back stronger every time and now able to fight on a level he was never capable of before. I know he is special but come on we have been watching anime for a long time and this isn’t the way to go about it.

        Kurik
        Reply

      2. @Kurik

        Siegfried is the dragon-slayer who became immortal by bathing in dragon’s blood, and Sieg get his heart, currently Siegfried’s blood flows in the veins of Sieg. Sieg is immortal Siegfried.
        After gaining Saber of Black’s heart, his appearance physically changes and he gains a stronger constitution which leads Rider of Black to claim he can live for more than 100 years. However, while Siegfried’s body could withstand the dragon blood within it, Sieg’s body can’t. That is reason that the spots on Sieg’s hand where the Command Spells disappeared from turned black and his body gets dark spots like those of a Dragon every time he uses the Siegfried’s transformation ability. After use all of their Command Spells
        Sieg managed to barely maintain his human form thanks to the power Sieg obtained from Frankenstein’s “Blasted Tree: Lightning Branch of Crucifixion” .
        The lightning carries her will as written in Frankenstein’s notes and explained in the LN. Sieg activated the Siegfried’s transformation skill and received the Galvanism at once due to the lightning, so it isn’t surprising that he could eventually manifest Blasted Tree as he was already using Galvanism on order to spam Balmung during his battle against Karna.
        Blasted Tree has the power to make another Frankenstein monster, so it happened. Also this triggered Siegfried’s transformation skill. Blasted Tree has this ability inscribed into it. That lightning is basically Fran’s will, and she wished to remain in this world so that Sieg could avenge her of the terriblethings that Shirou and Shakespeare made the her during her battle against them. Also, by jumpstarting the Siegfried’s transformation skill, Sieg could regenerate much faster, just like Siegfried.

        The real question is why do I have to explain this to anybody who claims to have watched the other Fate anime before. And also why the fuck are there so many secondaries in the Fate-related topics in the West?

        Mahesvara
        Reply

  12. I love that they so respected Jeane’s status as a Saint and her Christian Faith in a belief that anyone can be saved. It is easier to accept forgiveness in Fate when you have proof that no one really dies making your mortal life more a Virtual Reality Simulator than real. Giles gets forgiveness here and in Fate/Zero despite his horrible crimes. And as far as I know, the staff at Type-Moon are not Christians.

    This story has weakness but it does have a lot of great characters as well. Not the greatest story ever told but it has been mostly enjoyable.

    RedRocket
    Reply

  13. #SiegDidNothingWrong

    Sieg did not made anyone look bad when people like Jeanne, Astolfo, Siegfried, Fran (unknowingly at first) etc. helped him along the way that driven the story until here.

    It’s annoying in a disturbing level that the salty lots are butthurting throwing fits over Sieg without actually disgesting the events for the entire story like how did he got Fran’s power. However, it was the anime itself did a poor job on explaining things that could have averted some misunderstandings.They even failed to go in depth of Sieg x Jeanne relationship compared to what was written in source material.

    And for Amakusa Shirou, his goal ultimately show that he’s an edgy bitchboy who’s pessimistic of the concept of mankind.

    Real Xero8420
    Reply

    1. Siegfried is the dragon-slayer who became immortal by bathing in dragon’s blood, and Sieg get his heart, currently Siegfried’s blood flows in the veins of Sieg. Sieg is immortal Siegfried.
      After gaining Saber of Black’s heart, his appearance physically changes and he gains a stronger constitution which leads Rider of Black to claim he can live for more than 100 years. However, while Siegfried’s body could withstand the dragon blood within it, Sieg’s body can’t. That is reason that the spots on Sieg’s hand where the Command Spells disappeared from turned black and his body gets dark spots like those of a Dragon every time he uses the Siegfried’s transformation ability. After use all of their Command Spells
      Sieg managed to barely maintain his human form thanks to the power Sieg obtained from Frankenstein’s “Blasted Tree: Lightning Branch of Crucifixion” .
      The lightning carries her will as written in Frankenstein’s notes and explained in the LN. Sieg activated the Siegfried’s transformation skill and received the Galvanism at once due to the lightning, so it isn’t surprising that he could eventually manifest Blasted Tree as he was already using Galvanism on order to spam Balmung during his battle against Karna.
      Blasted Tree has the power to make another Frankenstein monster, so it happened. Also this triggered Siegfried’s transformation skill. Blasted Tree has this ability inscribed into it. That lightning is basically Fran’s will, and she wished to remain in this world so that Sieg could avenge her of the terriblethings that Shirou and Shakespeare made the her during her battle against them. Also, by jumpstarting the Siegfried’s transformation skill, Sieg could regenerate much faster, just like Siegfried.

      The real question is why do I have to explain this to anybody who claims to have watched the other Fate anime before. And also why the fuck are there so many secondaries in the Fate-related topics in the West?

      Mahesvara
      Reply

      1. Thanks for the explanation.

        The real question is why do I have to explain this to anybody who claims to have watched the other Fate anime before.

        Because half of the things you mentioned aren’t even explained in the anime. If you didn’t read the LN it becomes quite wierd because every powerup Sieg gets feels like an ass pull.

        Shio
        Reply

  15. I honestly felt that, despite the rushing in the Shakespeare mindbreak last week (which was a shame, since the scene was well directed), the Apocrypha anime has been very good about showing that Jeanne is worthy of being called a hero.

    Because jokes about waifus aside, she showed she was made of sterner stuff than anyone seemed to think. This is most obvious in her confrontations against Atalanta, though still visible in other moments, but her character had some genuine grit and a strong heart that did not bend her beliefs or deny her failings.

    Vortigen
    Reply

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