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「決意」 (Ketsui)
“Resolve”
“Thinking again? There’s nothing wrong with thinking, but you’re smart enough, so why not just solve the problem?”
Rule of the Strong
How many of you played MMORPGs back in the late 90’s / early 2000’s? For those of you who did not, let me give you a little history lesson. In the early days of MMOs there were no such thing as instances. I was playing Everquest at a raiding level at the time, and let me tell you, power plays among the guilds were a very real thing. There were only so many good hunting grounds, and if someone you didn’t like encroached you could train mobs on them until they died. It was even worse (better? more exciting?) with raid mobs. Instead of having an instance like now-a-days, if a raid mob spawned, that was the only one there would be on the entire server until it was killed and respawned. It was a race between every high-end guild, with the strongest reaping all the spoils and the weak relegated to third-string status, if you wanted to be nice about it. There were huge guilds like Krusty’s (Sakurai Takahiro) D.D.D., and small elite guilds like the Black Sword Knights. The tyranny of the strong was a very real thing, far more so than it is in MMOs today.
I had mixed feelings when they were painting these high-end guilds in such a harsh light. I see nothing wrong with D.D.D. being huge and with lots of 90’s, nor with the Black Sword Knights wanting to be the best. These are perfectly natural desires, and organizations that embody them exist in our own world as well, they’re just called “corporations” or “nations” rather than guilds. The Black Sword Knights definitely get points off for buying the EXP pots from Hamelin though, provided they know how they’re getting them (or have reason to suspect). Really though, its shitty game design on the part of Elder Tales. Couldn’t they have just made those potions untradable, or increased the exp gain at lower levels? Same thing with Minori and Touya in Hamelin; why can’t they just de-guild and run off? I’m starting to realize why MMORPG stories are more difficult to write than they initially appear – when drama comes from bad game design, it feels arbitrary and annoying, while when the same thing happens in a non-game setting it’s totally fine. The programmers should know better, but some fantasy world’s god? Meh. Which probably means I ought to give them more slack.
Drama & Angst – Deserved & Not
There was a lot of angst this episode, mainly from Shiroe, and I’m mixed on it. Shiroe is a character very much given to introspection and the angst that so commonly springs from it, so it makes sense that he would wallow from time to time. That doesn’t mean it’s especially fun watching him do it, though. Credit where credit is due, though – he was hesitant to act for while, but we’re only six episodes in and he’s already formed the titular guild, he called up Minori after only a little waffling, and now he’s setting out to change all of Akiba – and with it, the rest of their new world. Between them demonizing hardcore players and Shiroe’s angst, the chewy middle of this episode was a bit of an expositionary drag, but it’s leading somewhere nice.
We Can Do Better
If you’ll permit me to dive into the philosophical weeds, let’s talk about natural selection. Based upon the preponderance of evidence I’ve seen, I think natural selection (evolution) happened. That doesn’t mean that we, as a society, have to let it keep happening. Those that argue for social natural selection – that the smart will become rich and powerful while the lazy will suffer – are missing the point in my eyes. We can do better. Here we have big guilds like D.D.D. gobbling up all the smaller ones and dominating the good hunting grounds while the Black Sword Knights use their strength and money to level more quickly and Hamelin exploits lowbies, and you might say this is all natural because the strong are dominating the weak, but can we not do better?
Shiroe has decided they can. Nyanta was right – nothing is perfect. Nothing. You make the best of the flawed systems and individuals you have, all the while trying to improve them when possible. Shiroe intends to remake the face of Akibahara into something better, and I could not be happier. Slogging through the guild-drama mud and galvanizing all the players into breaking their way out of this reality is what I wanted to see out of this series, and Shiroe has started down that path. Shiroe has done his thinking, and now it’s time for action. With the creation of Log Horizon – I got chills during that scene my friends, chills – we have the first step to a stronger Shiroe, and a greater world. I can’t wait to see where it will lead.
Looking Ahead – Shiroe’s Secret Weapon
Shiroe said he needed five million gold and everyone’s hope and goodwill. Of those, the latter two will be the hardest. First up is the money though, and Shiroe’s secret weapon is clear – food. That’s a powerful bargaining chip in this world, but it’s a good thing he’s planning to use it sooner rather than later, because the longer he waits the more chance someone else will realize the trick. In a world of tasteless muck, Shiroe will have incredible influence for a time. I’ll be interested to see how he turns that into more lasting power, and exiles Hamelin from Akiba at the same time.
tl;dr: @StiltsOutLoud – The tyranny of the strong. Through the angst, Shiroe has decided to stop thinking & start acting. Log Horizon has arrived! #loghorizon 06
Random thoughts:
- The greatest failing of this episode – we didn’t get to see Akatsuki in a summer dress. Dammit Henrietta, don’t keep her to yourself!
- I loved how they noted that some raids were 100+ player fights. This is definitely a late 90’s / early 2000’s MMO. Reminds me of my old EQ days, of taking down gods with 120+ other players. Modern MMOs have some cool mechanics, but there’s nothing quite like that sheer united effort of humanity around you.
- Despite all the changes to the world, I’m surprised that there aren’t already Lv 100’s running around. Leveling was a lot harder back then, but it’s been, what, a few weeks? And they can’t log off even if they wanted to? You all should be level capped and bored, you slackasses!
- Did you notice how Krusty was on Shiroe’s friends list? Should be fun to see what their relationship is like later on.
- “We aren’t nearly desperate enough.” Damn right, Shiroe. Get desperate, and give it to Hamelin. For Log Horizon!!
Check out my blog about storytelling and the fantasy novel I’m writing at stiltsoutloud.com. The last four posts: Novel update: editing & short stories, My stance on piracy, The three main rules of storytelling, and I’ve never regretted any of them.
Preview
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… Yeah we didn’t even get to see the dress …
Maybe next episode. 😀
damn straight! that nearly ruined the entire episode for me, but I persists. Log horizon is finally taking shape and I cant wait!
Not really surprised, since this tends to happen to all LN series adapted to anime.
BDs anyone? 😀
Yes, we need those BDs.
When is Volume 1 BD out?
… I need a personal ninja too.
I prefer a personal kunoichi…
Such a trolling! first they show Akatsuki terrified, the dress itself, but no Akatsuki wearing the dress!!!!
Krusty looks bad ass, and now we know where the series name came from… makes sense. Next time is loli (and shotas) saving time, or the beginning of it.
“Despite all the changes to the world, I’m surprised that there aren’t already Lv 100′s running around. Leveling was a lot harder back then, but it’s been, what, a few weeks? And they can’t log off even if they wanted to? You all should be level capped and bored, you slackasses!”
Old school MMO, so death penalties are probably severe.
I’m guessing XP loss in addition to monies.
Would explain why leveling to 100 is actually a “risky” affair, and not just a timesink like in a modern MMO.
“I loved how they noted that some raids were 100+ player fights. This is definitely a late 90′s / early 2000′s MMO. Reminds me of my old EQ days, of taking down gods with 120+ other players. Modern MMOs have some cool mechanics, but there’s nothing quite like that sheer united effort of humanity around you.”
WoW was my first MMO and I have to say, having participated in a 40-man raid, I felt I was simply zerging down the raid boss, which didn’t feel at all epic.
I would rather have my individual contribution be non-trivial.
But tastes vary.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the xp required scales drastically, like how the realm ranks in DAoC were (going from realm rank 11 to 12 was almost as much as going from rank 1 to 11 three times).
Could also be a pain actually getting to the high-level areas if you constantly have to worry about PKs or someone training half the mobs in the area on you at once. Last thing I would want is to finish a day of grinding only to get PK’d on the way back home and lose all progress for the day. Also, I don’t care how high your level is, some of those upper level mobs are probably scary when you’re actually fighting them face-to-face, rather than through a monitor.
Old school mmo’s also tended to take extreme time to level up the few new levels in an expansion. Usually it took as long as it took to get to the previous max level to level up the extra 10 levels. The entire idea with the xtra levels back then was to introudce new time sinks into the game so players had something to grind for again.
None of you are wrong…and yet, no one having even made it to 91 yet is a stretch for me. Even if everyone wasn’t 100 yet (which is very likely), I’d expect a few 92’s to be about at the very least.
This is a little weird. I hope they explain eventually that the new levels need something more than XP. That would solve it for me.
The idea that they need SO MUCH XP that people with nothing else to do for weeks haven’t even hit 91 is a little hard to swallow.
It’s my deeply-held belief that all anime/manga etc. set inside video game worlds would be greatly improved if, every time there was some plot device like this that doesn’t seem to make sense, the players whined about it.
“OMG I JUST NOW HIT 91 WTF LH”
“devs=retarded”
“the apocalypse ruined lh”
“this game is such a grindfest now remember when lh was good?”
“lh was never good”
“go back to wow”
My response to the 100+ person fights,
there was still a ton of individuality in EQ based around your roll. The strategies required back then made it very hard to zerg. Individual tank damage could be Extreme, so you had to plan effectively to keep one person alive to achieve your goal and have your back up. Failure, was extremely costly in the resource of time. A wipe could easily end a raid, or set you back more than 10 minutes in rezzing and rebuffing.
Here is an EQ example of the strategies required in this game: The CH chain.
EQ had a spell called complete heal. Like the name says, it completely healed the target. Mana to hitpoint, the most efficient heal in the entire game. The catch? 8 second cast time(maybe it was 10? It’s been a while) either way, stand there and do nothing else for a long time, and hope your target lives.
The raid application: The strategy was to examine the mobs damage. Based on the damage, figure out the time needed between complete heals to effectively keep your tank alive. Usually the “best” was around 3 seconds. Often times it dropped below 1 (avatar of war!) Once you had your time, create a rotation where each cleric macros the cast and stating when they are starting their cast so the next person could countdown and start theirs. Usual minimum clerics/raid (7 (4-5 in rotation with 1-2 subs for death/mana recovery, 1 dedicated rezzer). If it dipped to 1 second, you need 8-10 clerics for the rotation.
That is one out of 13 classes. Granted, it’s the highest minimum required, but everything else stacks up pretty quick.
Tanks had to have a similar set up with tank switches every 3 minutes based on cooldowns with fights lasting as long as 20 minutes depending on your dps. If you played vanilla Wow, now you know where needing 7 appropriately geared warriors per raid came from.
Shamans and druids had to keep the general raid healed, so a ton of those were needed. There was a minimum number of mages needed per raid based on numbers to supply items that would trade health for mana to keep the raid moving. 2-3 Monks were needed to pull efficiently. Paladins and Shadowknights had a huge roll in offtank duty usually to move through trash efficiently. You *could* manage raids with smaller numbers, but most guilds had to operate around 40-60 people per raid to be contenders in a race.
I loved how all the side characters got to actually talk instead of just being background, even the PK’er group was used to tell the story instead of just being forgotten.
As far as Shiroe’s plan, I cant help but think of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqwCejSZA28
I liked that too, with the PKers. No characters are being wasted.
Oh Shiroe. She may have nothing to say yet but…. I bet she will have ONE when you rescue her.
Akatsuki better man the cannons early or her ships going to sink
I can see what Shiroe is trying to do with his newly established guild (not a LN reader, yet)…
(just in case)Show Spoiler ▼
That’s a lot of birds with a single stone throw there, Shiroe.
No all out Guild War?
I can’t see it happening, since they’re asking for a relatively small amount of money. It just doesn’t help in getting anything for a war. They also don’t have the man power for it either.
…but why should I even say all that when the preview for ep.6 shot your question down.
To answer your question about why Minori and Touya don’t just quit the guild:
Show Spoiler ▼
What we get for turning a MMORPG over on it’s head.
One question for the LN readers: Was this in the LN?
Yes. Here’s the LN image of the party. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/22/mw9g.jpg/
Actually does that link work? I might have grabbed the wrong one. http://imageshack.us/a/img22/510/mw9g.jpg
Dat Akatsuki:
>my feet hurt
>my dress is itchy
>I can’t breate
>I wish I was outside adventuring with my Lord
I so want to see her in a dress. Why anime? WHY!?!?
It’s more fun in the novel =3
Show Spoiler ▼
I rarely notice the little mmo related logical flaws Stilts points out while I’m watching the episode myself and even though I’m thankful for him doing it and making me a smarter person, it then always feels a bit immersion breaking to me. But then someone explains the little parts from the light novel left out in the anime adaption and I like the show even more. Thank you for doing this without spoiling anything! I love how they manage to explain all of this in a really satisfying way.
I’ll definitely read the novel after the series is over.
Well what you know, another magnificent way to make burocracy lethal and inside a game this time. I guess nobodu though of this when the game was created, who in his right mind would ever think in this situation?.
Most of these problems wouldn’t even be possible in a normal game. First off, players could just log out and it’s a character getting beat up/killed, not you. Secondly, if any guild went this far you could presumably just contact a GM to deal with it.
What’s going on in the show is not just ‘bad design’ it’s relatively LAX design rolled together with being stuck there. Most of these things couldn’t be done without the ‘being stuck there with no overarching authority’ component.
Why the hell would people create a pk area in their guild halls? Unless there is a good reason, that’s bad game designing(or a gaping plothole) right there.
One of the perks of owning your guild hall is being able to set the zone restrictions, that’s true in a fair number of mmos. A legit use for a PvP enabled room would be friendly bouts or training.
Show Spoiler ▼
@hx37:
There should be a designated room for pvp, not just anywhere. Ragnarok, for example, has those “guild dungeons”.
I’m inclined to believe it’s one of those cheap plot devices again.
Hmm, RO, to use your example, is a game where PvP is limited only certain areas (at least that’s the case when I last played it, ten years ago ^^;;;).
Elder Tale OTOH is the reverse; PvP can happen anywhere (that’s why PKers can run rampant out-of-town), and even in “safe zones” like towns the only thing that prevents people from going wild on each other are the Guards (that’s why the Brigandians could run amok in town; they were careful not to overstep the line while having “fun”).
Also, note that private zones, aka zones bought and owned by individual players, allow their owners to set what can and cannot be done in such zones. This includes blocking anyone on a blacklist from entering, and as mentioned, allowing PvP.
Imho, all this keep in line with what Marielle has said in this episode: there are no laws in this world. Or to put it in perspective, unlike a game, where there’s an official “Hand of God” to step in and put wrong-doers in place, this world, a very real world, has nothing so convenient. If there are laws, then those are what the people-in-power have laid down.
That makes sense…and yet it’s still bad game design. Why would the creators of Elder Tales want to make more work for their GMs fixing problems like this when they could simplify the whole thing by implementing a simple /gquit command?
Like I’ve said before, I don’t totally hold this against Touno-sensei or anything, if Elder Tales was better designed then the series would lose a lot of its potential for drama. Doesn’t mean I’m not going to call it out, though.
It’s an interesting design choice, I’ll agree with you. There are also some fundamental underlying reasons for that which go way beyond spoiling the next few episodes. It’s hinted at in the side stories, so I’ll just say that the scope and background of this story is grand indeed. Not sure how the anime is going be paced, but you should get an inkling by ep 15 or so if it keeps going like this.
It can be use for PVP practice or PVP tornament between guildie, that’s totally obvious.
because before you could log out of the game so there was NO concerns about various things that popping up now. you have to remember the game before is different than the game now.
Also, there are subtle differences that people are “underestimating”. What Shiroe understood that noone else, not even people watching the anime understand is that they are still thinking in terms of “mmo” as opposed to, this is a “world”. People who compare this to whatever games they played are “bound” by the concept of game, by game rules whereas Shiroe understands, “At this moment, this world has no rules.” Think about it and you will understand the significance of what they are trying to do.
So when I saw the preview for the next ep, my thought was:
“I wonder how many people thought when the preview for ep 5 said ‘And then Nyanta reveals a shocking truth. A secret about this world that will change everything they thought they knew,’ it was being serious?”
I sure as fun didn’t.
Nah, that isn’t it. Its related, but its not. Its what the cooking IMPLIES.
Let’s use Sword Art Online as an example: you can’t make bows in Aincrad. Its not part of the database, so you won’t be able to make anything resembling a bow using crafting. Likewise, you don’t actually “craft” anything in Aincrad. You just go through the motions of either hammering the material, sewing the fabric, or mixing the soup, and viola: the Sword/Clothe/Food is created!
That also applies to Elder Tale. If its not in the database, you can’t craft it, you can’t make it, you can’t cook it.
Show Spoiler ▼
I know what you’re trying to say, but careful re-reading of our two posts reveals you did not actually disagree with me.
The number one line that sucked that it was left out. From the end of Shiroe and Nyanta’s conversation. http://imageshack.us/a/img850/5826/d3iw.jpg
I was looking forward to it so much.
I keep making redundant posts here but Stilts you’re leaving out certain things from your consideration. Remember that while this world has game rules, normal world rules seem to also apply. Like in Susukino where Demikas said to make sure they strip the guy of his gear before they kill him. That would not have been possible when it was a game. It’s possible that EXP potions are bound to player, but that doesn’t mean they can’t just take them out and hand them to someone else. It wouldn’t have been possible with how a game menu and item using would work but now that’s its reality they’re not forced to use the item once they take it out of their bag.
They seriously should of added that 🙁
Wow for once a useful anon :O
On the EXP pots being bound to the player, you’re not wrong. Of course, if that was the case they could have said so…but then again, there was already a lot of damn exposition this episode. I’m truly not annoyed even if this was a game design flaw, but I still felt compelled to point it out.
I have been searching everywhere for the scanlations further ahead of the anime, how did you find this, my utmost jealousy… maybe cause you know if we get to see the dress 😛
If you mean for the manga, sadly no just the two chapters are full translated. Some anon earlier translated that page because he was sad the anime left that bit out. I agree with him, it was a nice end to the conversation.
http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Log_Horizon
Do you know why it started at Volume 2? That seems weird.
It’s translated by an anon (vol 2 – 3) http://pastebin.com/u/skythewood
Because the translator anon didn’t feel like retreading over what the anime at the time covered in the first 4 episodes.
i was hoping that he comes up with a cool guild name like………………FAIRY TAIL!!!
He should just go back to calling it the Twilight Brigade ;p
Better get used to Crusty, you will like him lot in upcoming episodes, well, you could say same about every guild leader.
Don’t lie, none of us knew that the Log Horizon would be the name of the guild, unless you cheated and read the source! Well played Shiroe, well played.
I better see that dress in the next episode!
“Don’t lie, none of us knew that the Log Horizon would be the name of the guild, unless you cheated and read the source!”
This, although you’d be wondering “why Log Horizon”.
Umm… it’s in the preview blurb about this show on this very website. It was never a mystery that this was a show about Shiroe and his friends forming the guild Log Horizon.
There was no clue that the guild will be named Log Horizon though.
“Join loner spellcaster Shiroe (Terashima Takuma), his old friend and tank Naotsugu (Maeno Tomoaki), the beautiful ninja Akatsuki (Kato Emiri), and the rapier-wielding cat creature Nyanta (Nakata Jouji) as they join together to form the guild Log Horizon and try to survive the sword-and-sorcery world that is now their reality.”
Copy-and-Pasted that directly from the fall 2013 preview on this site.
No, no. I mean when you just based everything from the anime itself.
They put that in the preview and it just spoiled everything. But if you just watched the anime without any research whatsoever, you will find no clue about the name.
Just checked the fall 2013 preview as well and it’s (unfortunately) confirmed that Stilts did wrote that.
And I didn’t actually read the 2013 previews. I just took note of the names and the general plot of the shows this time around just to surprise myself.
No, nothing in the show clued me that the guild name is the show’s title. I just imagined the title being one of those that is derived from one of the actions/events happening around the MC(Shiroe). No clues until he flatly said that “the guild’s name… is Log Horizon.”
Looks like I dodged a bullet when I stopped reading the preview for Log Horizon at the part where it said “From the creator of the Maoyuu Maou Yuusha novels”. I was already sold at giving the anime a chance.
Fair enough, if you’re just talking about the anime, then yeah there haven’t been any hints. The main reason I brought it up is that something like five people mentioned it on this review alone and I just find it funny that so many people on this site didn’t read the anime preview for this series that is up on this site.
I just found it amusing.
Even if I hadn’t mentioned it, it was blindingly obvious that the guild’s name would be Log Horizon. The Title Drop (trope!) was just too perfect not to use.
“Even if I hadn’t mentioned it, it was blindingly obvious that the guild’s name would be Log Horizon. ”
No it’s not. Nothing about the phrase “Log Horizon” gives any clue. Title Drops are meant to give importance to something, not the other way around.
Especially here in Log Horizon: give me a clue that said the guild’s name is Log Horizon? None right? Shiroe just decided it will be on the spot. It could have been “Nutzy” or “Red Wings” or “Army of Dorkness”. It could have been anything. And the title itself was random: There is no meaning. So nothing could have given people the clue it is Log Horizon unless:
1. They had read the source material
2. They saw/read your preview
Just because it never occurred to you, Moondoggie, doesn’t mean other people can’t take hints such as, like Stilts said, the title drop. I just watched the episode and when he started talking about a guild, I started chanting Log Horizon under my breath, waiting for it to be true, and smiled when he said it.
@SerRompalot
You just made a lucky guess. Do you even know how to use a title drop?
And give me one event that clued you in it was Log Horizon.
You’re starting to get overly serious, man. Chill… lol Oh btw, I easily guessed that the guild would be named “Log Horizon” the moment Shiroe starts talking about it, without any clue before that. How? From watching and reading lots of anime and manga over the years. It’s just that easy, really. No need for a lucky guess.
Well, I’ve read this preview, but then just forgot about this fact and when I’ve heard the name’s guild will be Log Horizon and when they’ve shown this sunset, I was just like “OMG WTF AMAZING I GET IT NOW!!!”. Also after reading this very part of light novel, I must say it was done so much better in anime and it’s not the first time. This adaptation is a really good one. In book this conversation is different and has no such emotional effect at all.
strik3agle, I understand it that you’re an elitist anime viewer who can predict things even before watching it, but it doesn’t change the fact that the anime itself didn’t contain such clues, except for the title.
It was very well done scene and that’s all that matters anyways.
@Moongoddie et al
Remember that I’m not just a blogger, I’m a writer too – it was obvious to me because that’s what I would have done were I in Touno-sensei’s shoes. I’m a bit too genre savvy for my own good at times.
But yes, it was blindingly obvious to me. Though they did foreshadow it just a little bit with all the horizon scenes, though it was in such a subtle way that it only makes sense after the fact, which was perfect-o. I liked that a lot as a justification for the name.
“Remember that I’m not just a blogger, I’m a writer too – it was obvious to me because that’s what I would have done were I in Touno-sensei’s shoes.”
What a very convenient reasoning, though not very convincing(because you are not Touno). Touno could have used the any name, top of the list is “Debauchery Tea Party”, because that would have invoked more emotions than the title.
As for foreshadowing, that’s more of the director’s/studio’s interpretation of what/how the scene could have looked.
Dude, as strik3agle said, you’re letting yourself get a bit too serious about this. No one is trying to have a fight. A fair number of people assumed it would be log horizon, some others didn’t. It happens.
And what I’m trying to discuss here is that your assumptions are nothing more than a lucky guess: there is no clue whatsoever it will be Log Horizon. It just happened. I even asked the elitist what clues would have lead to the guild naming Log Horizon. He hasn’t answered yet because there is no answer.
In short, that name just came out of the blue. That’s it. That’s what we are discussing here.
It’s just like Magoiichi said:
“Don’t lie, none of us knew that the Log Horizon would be the name of the guild, unless you cheated and read the source!”
And as I see it, there are plenty of spoilers hanging around the net.
Moondoggie, at this point you just seem hurt that you couldn’t come up with that conclusion. The reason we came to the conclusion of the guild’s name based on just the title is the same way people get a gut or bad feeling almost like a sixth sense about something without knowing what will happen. It is instinct and/or experience. If you can’t accept that other people think differently from how you do, and that other people can reach the right conclusion without having “cheated,” there is nothing more to say.
P.S. Thumbs up to Stilts, I’m also a writer. 🙂
Instinct and gut feeling isn’t an argument. Also pointing out that your a writer and “you just know” is even more baseless.
Though there is nothing bad with the author choosing the name(the name Log Horizon has a meaning, keep watching to see it), using a title drop in this purpose is a bit childish for my taste. The show would have done better if Shiroe announced it without too much drama.
Play Log Horizon, the only MMORPG where abusing lolis and shotas doubles your leveling speed!
An of topic question(sorry)
I just finish to watch the 2 season of Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon and i got say is a than good anime,but now i want a 3 season,and there isn´t..Well,is there material for a 3 season?The sales of the 2 season were good?
And again,sorry for the off topic question,and thanks for the guide(i was wondering on RC and found it,and one thing leaves to another..)it was the one that made watch the anime right away.And again,what a than good anime,i really want more.
The sales for season 2 were good, and there’s plenty of material for season 3 (and beyond), so most fans expect one to pop up eventually. Kyoukaisen is one of the hardest anime to adapt though, so I think Sunrise likes to take a break between seasons : ) Hopefully there will be more on the way soon!
I hope it’s sooner rather than later. I really liked season 2.
I’ve been waiting for some appropriate time to mention this… I’ve actually guessed for a while that Shiroe would form a guild, not just due to plot reasons, but because of the following image from the OP: http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/9223/i9cz.png. With the importance that was placed on the sunrise scenes before, it only stands to reason that what we see there is Shiroe’s guild continuing the tradition.
Why can’t you just leave when you find yourself as part of an unsavory group in real life? Just because the cities are “no PVP” doesn’t mean the kids will be safe to just walk away without consequences.
A non-resized version of the above image.
(there was no reason for it to be resized in the first place, I just forgot I’d set it to do that last time I uploaded something, and I didn’t catch it in time)
What a great wallpaper it makes, thanks pal!
But you can’t die in this game unlike in real life. Hamelin literally needs all their lowbies so it can function. The lack of mortality means the lowbies can just go and find other, more trustworthy friends to help them level past 30 (or even just go out as a group) so Hamelin can’t exploit them anymore.
This is answered above. And the answer is basically exploitation of PKing and the fact that, to de-guild, you have to sign a paper in the guild hall, but if they try, the older members just kill them.
And before someone complains that this is bad game design remember. YOU’RE RIGHT. But it’s the kind of bad game design that would be a minor problem if they weren’t trapped in this world. They could just log off, contact a GM, or start a new character.
Rules that had the POTENTIAL for abuse in the game can be used for real abuse now that they’re trapped here.
Do they respawn in the guild house or do they respawn in that cathedral in episode 2? Yes the game is designed badly, but I find the problem is more on how the players don’t think outside the box. Is it that all the under-30s are middle-school children? Because I find it really strange how they allow themselves to be so blatantly bullied– especially in a place where it’s been proven that the players cannot die.
You seem to think dying is the only bad thing that can happen to a person. There are a lot of very unpleasant things that can be done to someone who is weaker by someone who is stronger that don’t involve killing the weaker person. Particularly if the weaker individual is female.
All resurrections take place at the cathedral, but actually killing the newbie is not considered an efficient control method by Hamelin:
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Can you even force someone to disrobe in this world? What are the boundaries between what happens in the real world and Elder Tales ie what can’t you do to another person? If rape were possible, you’d think someone would have already done it since there are people that engage in player-killing.
And again, what’s to stop an under-30 from killing themselves, respawn away from the guild house, and expose all the dirty deeds of Hamelin? Do they even need to return to the guild house in the first place? Is there some sort of punishment that happens when you’re part of a guild but you’re unable to return to the house?
Make no mistake, I do like this show. My problem is the current drama. I get that it’s a stepping stone for Shiroe to bring order back to Akihabara, but I can’t suspend my disbelief at the mechanics behind it.
Serara’s situation was more understandable: she was literally trapped in Susukino because even if she attempted to escape, Demidemi’s group would kill her and she’d respawn back where she started. If Serara were to somehow be able to evade Demidemi, her low level means she won’t survive long by herself and, at that time, Nyanta wasn’t ready to leave Susukino, so no flying mount for her.
Tohya and Minori’s (and everyone else oppressed by Hamelin) though…?
@hx37: Alright, your explanation makes more sense. Is it confirmed that the players do feel pain now? I mean, I know they react when hit, but you’d think the players would be more wary about killing/hurting each other or going to monster battles if they feel the exact same degree of pain as in real life– especially considering most of these players aren’t battle-hardened soldiers.
I do believe that there is a dissonance between the views we hold of this situation.
First of all, this show is on NHK-E, so don’t expect rape being displayed or strongly implied on air.
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Second, I perhaps should have emphasized that players feel PAIN in this world. Being beaten down HURTS, being stabbed HURTS, and committing suicide HURTS A LOT. Most people tend to become demoralized after a completely one-sided beatdown.
As to your question on respawning, unless the newbie can get some outside help, all Hamelin has to do is wait until he respawns (takes a few hours) and physically drag him back to the guild hall. This is possible with the difference in physical strength between a lvl 20 player and lvl 90, and doesn’t get the town guard involved because physical contact, even a rough one, is not considered PK.
As for Hamelin, most adventurers in Akiba know or suspect them (like Marielle). But since Silver Sword and the Black Knights are buying their EXP pots, they don’t want to piss off two of the bigger combat guilds in Akiba. (Ties into the whole guild caste system described in this episode)
Shiroe mentions in the first episode that it doesn’t hurt as much as they thought. Take that how you will. My guess is it means that yes, it does hurt, but either not as much as real life, or just less than they thought it might.
Also their bodies are explicitly superhuman, so while it might be ‘technically’ the same amount of pain, they feel it less because of how powerful they are.
As to your question on battle and pain:
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Okay, so in the first episode when he says it doesn’t hurt as much as they thought it would he’s not saying it hurts less than in real life, but that he just thought getting hit/slashed/attacked would hurt more?
That makes sense, and I sort of thought that’s what he was saying. Just saying they feel pain, but less, was kind of weird.
I will have to agree that there is a dissonance. As someone who doesn’t read the source material, everything just looks and feels like a normal game, albeit with people trapped inside. It would be nice to actually see what is and isn’t possible in this game, and what players can and can’t do to other players.
Take SAO for example: in Aincrad, it is possible to kill other players, and it is possible to disarm opponents in combat or break their weapons. However, it can be extrapolated that rape isn’t possible because the player will still need to voluntary disrobe themselves for intercourse to occur. Pain doesn’t seem to be dulled as much or, at least, the anime did a good job depicting what the cast experience.
In Log Horizon, all I’ve gathered is death is impossible (a fact that can easily be exploited), and players can feel hunger, the call of nature (if Naotsugu’s comment to Akatsuki in episode 1 is true), and pain, albeit dulled to some unknown degree. Heck, a skit where Henrietta pulls off an article of Akatsuki’s clothes would be sufficient confirmation that rape is possible.
My point still stands that there are other ways out (such as asking for help) for the under-30s involved with Hamelin– that their situation is only hopeless because they perceive it to be due to word of god, but I do appreciate your filling in the gaps between source and adaptation.
@Beedle, yes you can force a player to disrobe. That’s one of the things differences between playing sitting at a keyboard and being in the world: when you’re actually there, you can physically move your hands to perform actions that the game didn’t have any commands for.
You mention SAO, but that is an entirely different situation. SAO was designed as a virtual reality, so they built in restrictions against players abusing their ability to perform physical actions like attempting to rape someone, because they knew someone would try to do it. Elder Tale was a keyboard and mouse computer game. It didn’t need to have restrictions programmed against doing that sort of thing, because it was physically impossible to perform those actions: there was no way to input a command to make your character do that in the game. But now that people are actually in the world, and capable of physically performing any action they could perform in real life, that becomes a problem.
And lastly, on committing suicide… Death is not something anyone who is in their right mind wants to experience, whether they know they will come back from it or not. Pain, certainly, but frankly I would say the whole thing would be traumatizing. Looking down on them for not killing themselves to escape is rather insulting to them, and I don’t think they deserve that.
I actually agree that asking for help would be a viable way of getting out for the newbies, hence the qualifier in my answer “without outside help.” Equipment does get damaged during fights, but I’m actually not sure of forced disrobing. I would guess it’s probable if rape is implied, but there is no way NHK would show that on air for several reasons.
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@Beedle
You really can’t compare this to SAO, and people should really stop trying. Beyond and above the rape/disrobe question, there’s a very simple reason that SAO players new what they could and couldn’t do: they were still in the game.
Despite some logic people may or may not agree with, SAO was ‘real.’ There’s little to no mystery in SAO, it’s not that kind of story. Other than the whole ‘we can’t log out we can die’ thing, SAO was working as intended, so the players knew the rules.
The situation here is different. It is a mystery, and the rules have changed completely since this was never a VR game to begin with the. We don’t know what the players can and can’t do, because the PLAYERS don’t know what they can and can’t do.
And it’s not like they’re going to sit down and figure out a list.
Step 1: can I cook? Answer: Yes
Step 2: can I rape someone? Answer: wait a second…
What I mean, they’re figuring this out as they go. And you have to remember, everything DOES NOT look and feel like a normal game, because PEOPLE ARE TRAPPED INSIDE. This is not SAO. That was a VR Game. Elder Tale was a standard monitor game like we play. Once you’re inside, all bets are off.
@Wanderer: It’s not so much as looking down on them for not committing suicide despite knowing that they will come back to life. It’s more of how the situation of the under-30s is being portrayed as bleak, but there are actually ways around it.
The lack of mortality is what really puts me off in this show. The threat of death is a very powerful and real thing, and the lack of which can easily abstract reality, leading to a change in a person’s decision-making process. In simpler but vaguer (in the sense that the implications are too vague) terms, it can be exploited. We’ve already seen several aspects of this: people becoming more prone to violence (“because they will come back to life anyway”), and players suddenly losing direction (which also leads some to violence).
Imagine if there was no death in real life? It’d be just like a game. Anybody can do whatever they want without any real consequences because death is no longer the end. Anime have thus far toyed with the idea of eternal torture as a counter to the absence of death, but writers fail to account for neuroplasticity– for the mind actually adapting to whatever horror it is subjected to, whether enduring it (“rising above”) or becoming someone else entirely (“breaking”).
Now, I can’t really determine how much a toll death has on the psyche but, if the situation truly were as dire as these under-30s (and note, I use the term under-30s because I don’t know if they are all middle-school-or-under children), then they should have tried something to get out of their situation– such as a strategic suicide or simply asking for help through voice chat. Again, with death not being the end, there then is a way to exploit it: not just by external forces, but by yourself as well.
The way I see it, Hamelin actually needs the under-30s so it can survive. The bargaining chips are with the under-30s and not Hamelin. It is pretty much as Shiroe says: the situation isn’t desperate enough. Serara’s was (at least until Nyanta was ready to leave); the under-30s of Hamelin’s isn’t.
Frankly, I think you’re giving people too much credit, and I’m generally a proponent of the human spirit and all that.
Physical torture is a pretty effective control tactic, and one that does work on humans. Whether the kids would kill themselves or not is a bit of a question, but even if they did it’s not a cure-all. As others have mentioned, they know where they respawn so it’s easy enough to just go get them again. As for voice chat, we don’t know how many of these kids have high level friends they could turn to for help.
Even the twins only marginally count. They don’t know Shiroe that well. He just helped them a bit for some relatively short amount of time. They presumably don’t want to bother a person they barely know. It’s important to remember that these people are Japanese as well. Not causing a fuss is a big deal here.
And you say the situation isn’t desperate enough. But that’s the entire point of this episode. The problem is never described as epic or desperate. Marie describes it as a kind of twisting. A general negativity that’s settled over the city. Shiroe isn’t choosing to act because anyone is in any real life-threatening danger.
You mention that the show is ignoring what no death would do, but in reality you are the one ignoring it. Why be good when there’s no real consequences for being bad? Why be much of anything? This is what Shiroe has decided to fight. Not some world destroying evil (at this stage) but just the general crappiness of people with no direction. The lack of REAL desperation is actually part of the problem. How do you solve a problem that everyone agrees is bad, but isn’t quite bad enough to get people to actually stand up and do something about it?
@KaleRyan: Now I am certain you have been constructing a strawman argument, but I’m assuming unintentionally =/ Nowhere did I state that the show ignores the implications of no-death. In fact, I even highlighted how the lack of death changed the way the characters acted. The point I’m making is that there are more ways to actually exploit this no-death scenario (and that the under-30’s aren’t in as dire a situation as the show, minus Shiroe, makes it out to be, but that’s a different point).
Anyway, I’m done. Agree to disagree or whatever; I’ve already got what I needed from Wanderer and hx37. Thanks for participating in this exchange, regardless.
Mm. Let’s talk hypotheticals, then.
You’re under level 30 (which translates to bare novice, in nearly any MMO I know) in Hamelin. You manage to screw up the courage to get yourself killed, and somehow manage to evade first the people waiting for you at the Cathedral, and then your constant pursuers, who always know where you are because of the whole ‘in their guild and can always locate you’ thing… hm. That doesn’t sound like it works. Rewind.
You’re under level 30, and you somehow manage to sneak to the front desk and get out of the guild… and now you’re still under level 30, alone, with an entire guild of assuredly unpleasant people not very happy with you. Maybe you have a high level friend. Maybe said high level friend was actually logged in. Hopefully said high level friend actually has enough influence to help you, because if he’s a grunt in the Black Sword Knights he’s never going to be able to get you in his guild. Otherwise, well… good luck leveling?
The point of this hypothetical – yes, the lowbies are in a screwed up situation that’s no different from enforced slavery… but they are, in fact, getting their required meals a day (and while starvation is not permanently fatal anymore, that doesn’t make it any less a horrible experience), and assuming their assigned leader isn’t incompetent like Touya’s obviously is, you probably are gaining more experience than you’re losing from dying. You’d be surprised how many people can justify to themselves staying in screwed up situations with such paltry comforts.
@Beedle
People on the internet need to stop saying everything is a straw-man argument when someone disagrees with them. It’s rude and it’s generally wrong. That said. I’m sorry. Looking back at my post it wasn’t worded very well, though my point stands.
I’ll try to say it better. You keep mentioning in all of your posts that the situation isn’t as desperate as they’re making it out to be. The point I was trying to make is that that is the problem. The situation is NOT desperate. And because of that, people don’t fight as hard. If the situation were more desperate, people would try harder to solve it. But it’s not, so most people just let it continue. I’m saying you’re right, but I think you’re looking at it wrong.
And I think there’s a few factors that you’re sort of ignoring. Time is big. These kids are miserable yes, but this also hasn’t been going on very long. It’s possible that if Shiroe did nothing and this continued for another couple of weeks or months, you would see more strategic suicide and things of that nature. It’s not that I think you’re wrong, it’s that I think you’re expecting a little too fast of turn around. To kill yourself (with full pain) and then try desperately to escape people who can find you through the system would require a fair amount of bravery or desperation, and I just don’t think the kids are there yet.
@KaleRyan
People on the internet need to stop saying everything is a straw-man argument when someone disagrees with them.
You sure have a lot of posts. Pretty ironic for you to tell this when you are doing this yourself, EXCEPT that you are playing with your words and sugarcoat it from time to time. Well, I guess that’s what you call “Playing Safe”.
@DTX:
I’m confused. What am I doing myself? I’m pretty sure I didn’t accuse anyone of making a straw man argument (If I did I’m sorry). And I wasn’t insulting people on the internet. I used that term because you see straw man argument thrown around a lot online and it annoys me. A straw man argument is a very specific kind of tactic, it’s not the same as ‘he disagreed with me’ or ‘I don’t like why he disagreed with me.’
And yeah, I’ve posted a lot on this topic. 1) I like this show and 2) I moved recently to a new country and am currently between jobs waiting for school to start. I have nothing but free time.
Shiroecchi is on a direct way to announce the NEW WORLD ORDER for Elder Tales, as Hogan did for WCW back in 1996. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfQ3IH-TWVI
Hamelin really? Of all the names to pick for their guild, they pick the one that references a fairy tale that ends with the abduction and disappearance of children. Might as well have a windowless van and offer kids free candy for guild activities.
Still I like where this is going, Shiroe is actually taking a proactive measure to make Elder Tale a better place. Kirito would have wallowed in his sycophantic loathing until the author would spoon-feed him convenient plot solutions.
Spreading MMO-political influence not with high-levels and grinding but with FOOD! All hail the Log Horizon CULINARY EMPIRE!!!!
That’s really not true about Kirito. He was an incredibly proactive character. Moreso than Shiroe by far. That’s what most people didn’t like about him in the anime; if he saw a problem he just hit it with his super sword powers until it went away. Very little thought involved.
I don’t necessarily agree either way, but the thing about SAO is that, for the most part, the order of things as Kirito usually knew wasn’t that messed up. The few times bad guilds rose up the rest of the players got together and smashed them down. The whole ‘we can die until we beat the game’ thing really helped put a damper on the sort of behavior that is happening here.
Without a goal, the Elder Tale players are more free to indulge their baser impulses.
Shiroe is really more of a thinker while Kirito is more of doer, so they are rather diffrent people. But to call Shiroe more proactive totally contradicts their personalities. Shiroe have now realised the problems and is trying to do something. By contrast so did Kirito realise the problem right away and raced to the higher level hunting grounds and quests ahead of the rest to get a head start.
Of course, SAO was a ‘real’ game in the sense that it had working rules that prevents what is happening now in Log Horizon. You can bully people in SAO, but it’s mostly limited to standing in the way and sex crimes aren’t alowed.
I think you can’t really compare the two characters, just like you can’t compare the animes. The stories really different genres despite similar premise. I do like Shiroe a lot more than Kirito, but that’s more because Kirito feels to generic and too forgetable.
I agree. Very different stories and very different situations that they’re in.
I prefer Shiroe because like you said, he’s less generic. I did like Kirito ok in the LNs, but even then he was a pretty normal character, it’s the situation that was weird. Shiroe on the other hand I find a breath of fresh air compared to normal action heroes in anime/manga.
Call me a fanboy, hate me all you want, but I seriously feel that comparing Log Horizon to SAO is like blasphemy. Of course, I’m kind of exaggerating.
In the end I think we’d all agree that the characters of Log Horizon are at least 10x better than the characters of SAO. I may be biased since I’ve read SAO LN until GGO and I have not read a single LN from Log Horizon. There were no improvements and growth for all the characters in SAO since they were able to leave the game. I have no idea if the characters start falling for Log Horizon, but at this point I’m confident to say Log Horizon Characters > SAO Characters.
Err, have you actually read the novels? This is usually something less observant anime viewers complain about. The issue in the anime is that they followed the rule “show not tell” a bit too strictly, so we are told very little third person information and have to judge how the characters act ourselves to notice any changes. But this is spelled out in detail in the novels, so it’s not hard at all to notice changes to the characters. It’s still rather easy to see how much they have changed in the anime if you compare the first episodes of the anime to the later ones.
I have read the SAO light novels. I liked them fine. The problem I eventually developed with them is two-fold.
1. They kept changing the supporting characters every arc. So people like Asuna kept getting ignored for multiple books only to focus on new characters that would then be ignored in the next arc.
2. There is no reason for it to be a harem story. The author even admits this in his notes in each book. Basically he doesn’t know how to write new characters that aren’t girls with the hots for the main character, so by the time you get to GGO the author is apologizing for introducing YET ANOTHER girl who likes Kirito. He really needs to learn to write platonic relationships and introduce some male characters.
I agree with the original post though that the Log Horizon characters seem to have more potential than the SAO characters, but for me like I said I think that’s because SAO never focused on anyone but Kirito. Even Asuna fell by the wayside as the series moved on.
Yes, I did. So tell me, did Kirito improve by the time he was playing GGO? No. He was still thinking “I’ll protect Asuna, I won’t tell her that I’m playing another deadly game that could cost me my life because I’m sure she’ll either stop me or play it to help me. I don’t want to put her life in danger. I can do it alone.”
By the end of Alfheim online and on the release of Asuna from the game, everybody would’ve thought he’d rely more on others yet there he is, doing things on his own and keeping it a secret to the closest person to him. Even Asuna was pushed as a side character and they focused on a new girl to add on Kirito’s harem who wasn’t interesting enough to push Asuna to the sidelines.
Don’t misunderstand me, of course I didn’t read SAO because I hated it. I’m not dumb enough to read a whole series of Light Novels just to bash at it. This is a comparison of Good versus Better, not Good versus Bad. It’s just that if you compare the two, Log Horizon stands out in a lot of aspects, mainly the characters. You can argue that SAO Anime was a product of crappy translation from source material to anime, but no, I am comparing from SAO’s source material directly.
I… don’t understand Shiroe’s angst/hesitations. He knew something was wrong with the system, he knows his friends were in danger, and he already has a solution to the problem but still he hesitated to do something about it. I understand Shiroe’s (prior) dislike for guilds even less.
Thankfully, that’s all in the past now.
People really need to settle down.
Shiroe did NOT know his friends were in trouble until Marie pointed it out to him, which is why they gave him a shocked face when she did so. I know the anime made it look all ominous every time we saw the kids, but that’s irrelevant. He found out in THIS episode after the party.
He then walks around thinking for a while about what to do. We don’t know exactly how long it took him, but unless some VERY weird stuff was being done to the timeline of this episode, it wasn’t more than one night, and likely not more than a couple of hours.
Thinking for a few hours how to overcome a major problem (literally changing the world order of the whole game at this stage, and choosing to take a place as an arbiter of that order) is NOT being paralyzed by hesitation and angst. A few hours is pretty normal.
As for why he hates guilds; if you don’t hate guilds maybe this is a little weird. But here’s thing: I hate guilds too. And I hate them for much the reasons he does. They’re political drama machines that make demands on my time and effort and have a tendency to collapse at fairly weak provocations. Some people hate guilds. It happens.
I don’t hate guilds, but I don’t particularly feel the need to join or form one either. I’d join a guild if it was fun, and I’d leave a guild when it stops being fun, because the whole reason I would choose to play a game in the first place is because it is fun. So, I do apologize for how harsh this sounds, but I really can’t empathize nor sympathize with Shiroe’s feelings, and I find his internal struggle frustrating, rather than inspiring, to watch.
Regarding Shiroe’s surprised expression, it happened when Marialle revealed that Black Sword Knights were doing what Shiroe perceived as ‘cheating’ (which is another argument altogether). It could be that it only dawned on him then how under-30 players can be exploited. Maybe Shiroe didn’t know with absolute certainty that Minori and Tohya were in trouble, but he knew something was up. Shiroe’s only saving grace, in my eyes, is that he acknowledges that he was part of the problem– that he did nothing (until now).
Looking forward, I wonder if what Krusty is doing is uniting Akihabara to restore a sense of order.
No offense, but you liking or not liking guilds has nothing to do with the story, whether it’s well written, or whether it’s realistic in the slightest. It’s not even an opinion of the story, it’s just your opinion of guilds.
Shiroe doesn’t like guilds, he doesn’t really want to be in a guild. He has his reasons, some good (guilds are filled with drama, which is the actual plot of the show, and truth in television) and some bad (just general lonerness). But they’re his. What does it matter whether you think he should be fine with guilds or not?
And NO, he didn’t know his friends were in any real trouble. Shiroe had seen them twice since the apocalypse. Once in the first episode when they’re walking along and chatting, and once in the last episode where they were walking off to hunt apparently. That is the sum total of what he knew about them post-apocalypse.
He didn’t want to talk to them because he was specifically worried about anything he knew of. He wanted to talk to them because he was generally concerned about them given the craziness of the situation. Within that context, you have to allow for his personality. He didn’t know them THAT well (they’d be higher level if they had played all that long together) and he didn’t want to bother them since they seemed fine (both times he sees them they’re with other players in no apparent danger.
The ANIME beats us over the head with the idea that their every appearance is ominous, but shiroe doesn’t see that.
None taken, but you will have to recognize that, as a viewer, my judgment of this show and its characters will be based on my own experiences and opinions. It has no bearing on you, but it will have a bearing in my own enjoyment of the story. Your own opinion, which also has no bearing on the story, is that you hate guilds because of the drama that comes with it, so you can relate to Shiroe. I’ve already stated my opinion on guilds, so I do find Shiroe’s apparent allergy to them unrelatable with and somewhat perplexing. However, I do applaud the author for having Shiroe identify and confront his own problems– for having a good grasp of the character they created.
As for the reason why Shiroe hates guilds, it can be deduced from the anime that it’s because he doesn’t like getting close to other people (likely as a result of how DTP broke down). That still doesn’t make his personal angst any less frustrating for me to watch but, as I have already said, it is thankfully behind him, so we can finally see Shiroe taking charge.
Again, no offense but that’s silly. I don’t relate to Shiroe because I hate guilds. That would be a silly thing to say to you, who has no inherent problem with guilds. It’s my personal opinion and I wouldn’t expect it to affect you.
I mentioned that I dislike guilds to establish a simple point: fairly normal people with rather little angst (I’ve got a good life) can dislike guilds for non-crazy reasons. They’re not for everyone. My point was that Shiroe’s dislike of guilds isn’t really a mark for or against the story, it’s just part of who he is. He doesn’t like guilds. He got over it. And he got over it quickly. He didn’t really need a guild before this episode, so while they mentioned his dislike of guilds, it wasn’t particularly important. And as soon as he decided he needed one, he thought for a bit, and then made one.
My second point is that you keep coming back to this idea that he has angsted. When has shiroe angsted at all? Again, he discovered there was a problem after the party in this episode. He wandered around for a while (again, presumably not more than a night, likely not more than a few hours) and then decided, with a very small amount of help from Nyanta, to do something about it.
Deciding whether or not to undertake something incredibly major in a couple of hours mostly by yourself is not particularly angsty. He didn’t want a guild, but it’s not like he was a solo player who was ‘afraid to make friends’ or some silly lone-wolf reason, he’s very sociable.
But whatever, agree to disagree. I just think you’re criticizing a character and story for something that they actually did REALLY FAST compared to a lot of other animes with truly angsty leads.
I liked the episode. I have a few comments on the review though.
I think the MMO players, such as Stilts and a few posters, are getting way too nit-picky about the MMO rules. This is a piece of fiction first and a game second. I’m assuming the author didn’t beta test his ideas to determine where the bugs were.
Real actual games tend to be full of fairly bad design choices that get ironed out over the course of numerous tests and a constant process of patching. This author’s ideas did not. It’s almost inevitable that some bad ideas would sneak, just as they do in real games, which are also thought up by random people.
As for the specific issues of this episode, I think a few things are important to remember.
1. as someone above said, it’s possible certain rules are breaking down, so maybe the pots are supposed to be bound, but those menu based tricks don’t work anymore. It’s hard to say.
2. Most of the abuse we’ve seen in this world wouldn’t be possible in a game to the same extent. The ability to log out for a while changes everything. Look at ganking in MMOs. Ganking would be incredibly psychologically destructive if it were actually happening to me, but in a game it’s just annoying. And any abuse of that type, or the pot taking type, that goes to far could be dealt with simply by talking to the company/gms.
So it’s not like real MMOs don’t have room for rampant abuse, it’s just much easier to deal with it when it’s a game compared to when you’re actually stuck there.
Well, actualy there were beta tests and they are called editing. 😉
Not even remotely close to the same thing. I’m not trying to be mean here, they’re just not.
Sorry. I was/am in a hurry. I’ll elaborate a little so it’s not quite as rude sounding. Editing is (generally) a fairly small number of people looking over a work. Probably the author, an editor or two, and perhaps some friends or family. This isn’t really that different than the standard development process WITHIN a game company, and in fact is likely a smaller number of people than most games have look at them.
Beta on the other hand can be any number of people, but usually not less than several thousand, maybe more if you’re dealing with stress tests and the like. And the things discovered in Betas are almost always stuff the company didn’t really predict. If this were a game, you guys would have discovered these problems (because they are problems, I’m not disagreeing with anyone there) and they would have been dealt with (hopefully). But it’s not a game. It’s a book.
I’m not saying to just accept everything. A mistake or plot-hole is a mistake or plot-hole. But some of these are REALLY minor, and arguably not even really problems.
Yeah, I think I agree with you on that. My comment wasn’t even a serious responce.
I’m mostly the type of person that tends to think that something is made the way it is cause there are some logical choices behind it and they don’t really need to be stated right now. I like it more that way than looking for plot-holes everywhere and trying to find forced reasons for why it isn’t so good as it seems. Although that’s just thinking on behalf of author and obvious mistakes are still a no go. Here everything so far was (or can be) explained so I don’t have anything serious against anime adaptation other than omiting some clarification from LN. Sadly there is a pleace to put it as there are some scenes that are a little draged on.
I agree with you. And that’s where a little of my annoyance at some of these posts come from. I don’t think it’s always an author’s job to make perfect sense or be perfectly logical, I just think an author has to avoid being completely ILLOGICAL or obviously missing something.
And while this show has had some things that are a little weird, I don’t think anything has been that huge. Most issues are minor, or solvable with some knowledge from the Light Novels.
This guys really need to make a guild:
https://twitter.com/Croos_/status/399392305150316544
PK guild – cause every time the word PK is mentioned they always appear
Just plain old talking the whole episode but it was very interesting, I didn’t even find myself dozing off for a second. I’m pretty happy that Shiroe was able to make his own guild, and his naming sense is awesome too. I wonder if he can get all the former members of Tea Party to join given that all of them have their own respective guilds. I’m also curious about that girl that Shiroe keeps on remembering. Akatsuki’s rival, maybe?
And it seems like they’re gonna sell off hamburgers to raise money. I thought he was getting ready for guild wars or something but I’m guess I’m stupid to think that Shiroe is stupid enough to do something like that. I’m pretty excited to see Shiroe take the lead and make a brand new Akihabara.
I would say the members of Log Horizon are probably the characters we keep seeing in the opening. So Shiroe, Naotsugu, Akatsuki, Nyanta, the twins, the spear girl, and that blonde guy they keep showing. Unless it’s a big secret, it doesn’t seem like it will be him reassembling debauchery tea party. And I kind of hope not as that’s a little obvious. I’d rather they various members of that group show up in interesting ways as characters with history.
I am curious about the girl though. Clearly important. But something obviously happened. Was it just a falling out? Were they together but broke up? Did she die? Did she just quit the game?
the girl Show Spoiler ▼
Good use of tags. But I’m gonna generally suggest just not putting spoilers like that on here. It doesn’t really add to the current episode so it’s just a spoiler in the purest sense. Given that this shows source material is largely untranslated, it has the fortune of being fairly spoiler free. It’d be nice to keep it that way.
Thanks for answering my question though.
Honestly I don’t see any problem with the rules of the Elder Tales from a game standpoint. Granted, I’ve never played MMORPGs, but some of the rules(or lack thereof) seem like nice nuances in an actual game that allows for more freedom.
The big issue, of course, is that unlike an actual game, Elder Tales has no oversight from somewhere. So all the normal channels that one would go about fixing a game is not possible.
TBH, the biggest and possibly only gripe in terms of the show not being “realistic” is the food thing. You’d figure there are plenty of chef subclasses among the 30,000+ Akihabara residents. And surely at least ONE of them tried to actually cook food the normal way. And once someone realizes that, surely the next step is trying to profit off it. I can’t imagine that the adventurers, after weeks of eating the equivalent of tasteless much, would not have the desperation of just trying tons of zany stuff to make food.
Since you don’t play MMOs you’re overestimating things a little. For one a chef just makes food, not weapons or armor or provides you with skills you can use to do more in combat. You just make food, admittedly a lot of times these provide small buffs, but it’s never really anything noticeable so usually a guild might have one chef just to provide that food for everyone. So there’s probably not many people with the chef subclass, since that would stop you from picking up other things, then depending on how fast people were to get to grips with the world, how many of those players with chef switched to something else after finding that everything they made tasted terrible like everything else. Also not to mention you have to actually know how to cook to cook things.
Also side note but it’s 30000 players in Japan total, there’s only 15000 in Akiba.
Yeah, most MMOs let you have two or three crafting disciplines, which makes a buffing discipline like chef not a bad option. But if you could only have one? Chef would suddenly become a LOT less appealing. Especially when this game something like 40 subclasses, MOST of which seem more interesting than chef at face value.
It actually has over a hundred subclasses, the ones on that one image are just a small sample of the total.
fascinating. It’d be fun to see a total list and what they can do, but probably won’t happen. Nonetheless it cements my point. Why would you be a chef out of hundreds of things?
You’re right. Perhaps I’m overrating the chef specialty in terms of popularity, but to be honest many of the subclasses in the game aren’t exactly super useful and seem more like novelty ideas. Whereas making food seems pretty important. Because it’s a way of HP and MP replenishment(at least it would be in normal RPGs).
But I will say that everyone should be able to cook. Maybe not well, but at worst you’re talking about would be overcooking the meat or something. Especially since the ingredients are given to you.
Still, it’s just a minor nitpicking. But it was the first time reading that I felt “what, that’s all there is to making actual food?” Thought it was goin to be more ingenious than that.
But your post got me thinking, so I re-read that part of the book regarding the chef sub-class.
Show Spoiler ▼
Baubo, you would need to ask yourself – if I was a gamer, would it be funny or at least profitable for me to become a chef? We can pretty much suppose that options (like different dishes, special cooking techniques etc) available for cooking are just a small percent of those available for fighting/casting classes. Some games do have a strong alchemy system with plenties of ingredients, but about food? For a gamer, it’s just a food which will never be too profitable to produce. You will find a lot of people who would buy a 90 level alchemy potions from you, but who would want to buy 90 level food? You can’t taste it and it can’t have many choices or any big influences on gamer’s statistics – it wouldn’t differ from alchemy then.
This way, to develop 90 level chef is most probably just an individual, uncommon decision of Nyanta as a heavy roleplayer, based surely on his actual love for preparing food in real life. So how many heavy roleplaying cookmasters that would actually develop their characters into 90 level chefs could be playing game on a daily basis (leveling up to 90 surely takes a lot of time)? And what’s also important – be logged in in that very moment the game became reality?
Perhaps it wasn’t told too well from the anime, but sub-class leveling and main class leveling are different things. Serara was level 44(lol!) maid even though her druid level was only 19.
I think that’s brajt’s point, would you actually want to level to 90 in a seperate class that doesn’t sound that much fun?
But why do you need lv90 chef skill? It doesn’t take much to make basic food. I’m guessing the level needed to make sandwiches or apple juice should be fairly low. And if your alternative is tasteless mush and water, that’s probably more than enough incentive to give up whatever your previous sub-class.
Yes, but we’re discussing how many people had the job before the apocalypse, when it had nothing to do with tasting the food. And the answer is probably a small number. Meaning that yeah, Nyanta could have possibly one of the first or the first to discover how to cook.
Now that they’re in the world, I can imagine chef would be a lot more popular. Is it stated anywhere if people can change their subclass or not?
We’ve already seen few chefs from Crescent Moon Alliance under Nyanta’s guidelines, so the number of chefs isn’t a problem. Rather their levels, as it’s highly difficult for me to imagine many high level chefs around. For simple dishes they should be OK, as it’s stated in the novel.
But it’s also something that irritates me. We’ve got around 30 members in Crescent Moon Alliance. And with the total number of around 100 subclasses, A FEW OF THEM are chefs? Sounds crazy, doesn’t it?
Considering they only have 4 level 90s and a bunch of weak members, they don’t really strike me as a hardcore combat guild, so I could see them choosing role-playing subclasses over combat-oriented ones. Maybe all their members chose some kind of house role? Serara is a maid after all. Another possibility is that there is a way to change subclasses, and part of Shiroe’s plan requires having some of the low-level players switch and Nyanta is helping them level their cooking? It does seem a little unusual though.
I like the fact it’s faithful to mmorpg. it feels genuine ’cause the process of shiroe’s line of thought about “what should I do in this world?
bla blaopen a guild” is demonstrating the process of development in mmorpg.yet we have some problems. first of all the food, clearly shiroe, Nyanta and their fellows are among the very few to know the secret
of the world..rings a bellof food..but are they the only ones?I have trouble to think they are the only ones…there must at least one or a few others to know or have the about the mysterious chef level…so I am wondering where it’s gonna lead us.another problem is that shiroe is thinking about saving the world.
it’s good thing to eliminate the bad people’s control (Hamelin’s guild) in town but I am not sure how far he wants to go?to establish akihabara?does he intend to “control” it?to establish a council?it’s harder than it seems to manage a town with so many people for the long term.. but let’s stick to a guild first.
clearly he needs people. 4 people aren’t enough, and I don’t think moon’s alliance gonna assimilate inside Log-horizon…so I wonder how it’s gonna be. maybe he is planning to take all those kids under his protection and train them?but still he needs to defeat that Hamelin guild.
random thoughts:
1. if Nyanta is in Log-horizon guild…serara must join!
2. we didn’t get to see enough Akatsuki this time..not even in a dress. but the important event – who is this girl that Shiroe imagined?I see a rival….?
3. finally we have a connection to the name of the series – Log-horizon. lovely (:
4. I can feel it – Naotsugu X Marielle
5. we finally have some info about the guy in armor..he doesn’t seem bad, however not one of the “good guys” either…
I feel that they will have their own story.
I would imagine in the whole world there are other chefs that know. In Japan however? Maybe Nyanta is the first. There’s always a first, why couldn’t it be him?
I’m sure Shiroe has a plan but on a larger point, I think you’re doing exactly what the monk memory girl told Shiroe to stop doing. You’re thinking too much. There’s always another problem, and if you just worry about the next problem, you can become paralyzed, like Shiroe was. But instead of doing that, you could just start by solving the problem and go from there.
I find it funny that apparently no one read the preview of this series on this sight. If you go read the blurb in the fall 2013 preview, it says this is a show about Shiroe and his friends in the guild Log Horizon. This was never a mystery, just a question of when and how he formed the guild.
You mean the girl from Teabag Douchery Party? I’m pretty sure she’s not logged in. Just like Naotsugu said he logged in for the first time in two years. Teabag Douchery Party thing has to be some very old times.
I think there’s a bit more to Shiroe’s longing memories of her and her clear importance to the story than ‘she wasn’t logged in that day.’
That would be a really low-key way to deal with the build-up she’s had. Even is she’s fine and alive and not playing, I would say there is still some kind of trauma. Possible breakup? As I mentioned, maybe she quit the game and Shiroe couldn’t really handle it.
>You mean the girl from Teabag Douchery Party?
>Douchery
Debauchery. You make it sound like they’re all douchbag nerdlords.
You mean Show Spoiler ▼
And in case you’re wondering, the spoiler in question concerns about a side story of web novel that have yet to be edited and formally published, so its unlikely we’ll see any sign of it in the anime.
Perhaps this Girl, was in Real a Men…
I played a Female Paladin, and the Guild thinks i was a Female in RL. Then when Teamspeak was invented, and we began to use it. Some hearts was broken, when they hear my Voice. Yeah, Dreams can be crushed in a instant, if your “lover” is not the one, you dream off…
So, i learned since them, to make it right. That i am a Men, that play just a Female Character..Why? You want to look on some Male ass? 🙂 (a Joke answer)
The “male ass” argument is a strong one. That’s why I’ve been creating female characters in offline games like Morrowind. Who would want to watch some guy for so many hours?
While the anime does not make this clear, I imagine that the pain that players feel is part of why they are so slow to level up.
Now, this is just my guess, but I would say that in addition to perhaps feeling less pain than normal people would, the amount of pain is scaled to damage, or percentage of HP. Thus, when Shiroe is hit by a lower-leveled monster, the pain is further reduced.
But then it could work the other way. Fighting against a higher-leveled monster would result in oodles of pain.
So the players who are trying to reach level 91 are doing it the safe and slow way, by using EXP pots while fighting enemies as much as 7 levels below them. And anyone who’s played RPGs knows that even if you double your exp gains, for enemies that are 7 levels lower, that’s still….piddly.
Humans are masters at figuring out ways to give the maximum PAIN without too much damage, never underestimate how fast someone can abuse a system in ways the developer never considered…
I have a feeling that level 100 cap is going to play some importance in the reason why everyone exists within the game. The difficulty in levelling up can also come from the experience needed. If it scales (as to be expected), it could simply take a metric crap-tonne to simply go from 90 to 91; we also do not know how much experience is gained per monster, how it’s divided among party members, or any hidden scaling factor based on class. Not unreasonable to assume it would be the quintessential JRPG grinding nightmare as that would explain the significant need for EXP pots.
As for the strong dominating the weak, it’s not as much a matter of social Darwinism as realism in action. Those possessing power seek to maintain it, those without seek to acquire it, or be avoided until they can. For better (or worse), what Shiroe desires is a new distribution of power, effectively destroying those guilds who currently hold a monopoly over this section of the game world. What is missed, however, is that this new structure will require Shiroe to lead. He must be the keystone that holds together his vision, or else it will fail to those who oppose it. In this I think we are going to find the plot to the first cour in the building of guild Log Horizon. Shiroe is going to have to combat his introversion and hesitation and change his mentality. We have begun to see it already in his willingness to save the twins, but we do not know how far the dominating guilds are willing to go to hold onto their positions. Will Shiroe have the courage and strength to respond in kind? That’s the ultimate question.
Not only we didn’t see Akatsuki in a dress, we didn’t see Shiroe’s reaction either.
And we couldn’t read Stilts’ reaction, which is twice as bad thing!
Is it just me, or does the OST sound familar? That ending OST… sounded just like Fairy Tail’s sad/dramatic soundtrack! (Pairing it with the word “guild” makes it even better!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqFtLesqm-Q (first OST)
Not surprised at the similarity, though. Satelight, the animation studio behind Log Horizon, also produced Fairy Tail (though A-1 Pictures gets producer credit). Plus, the music director for Fairy Tail is also music director in Log Horizon.
In the game you can’t trade EXP pots STILTS.
But now they’re not in the game so…
Is this confirmed in the books or the manga? I’m curious.
Just read the novel.
Hmm… interesting, well that’s one plot hole closed. I love this anime, but they seem to leave a lot of plot-holes by not explaining stuff that was explained in the novels or manga.
Overlook it, please. For the sake of the Story Line, just do add a Drama subplot
Which brings up a new question I’d like to get answered:
Which rules applied only when ET was still a game and what rules are there now?
The show is about people figure out these kind of rules bits by bits so telling you here and now would spoiled the fun of the show.
Just wait and see, they will gradually explains things.
If not, read the novels.
Would be better if they dedicate one episode on this so we won’t be left clueless.
Thinking about it from an RPG game stand point, IMO it’s pretty crappy coding for the XP pots. Usually that stuff is hard coded so it can only be used by the players the item is designed for, or if can be used by any player have very small bonuses (+1-2%) or some other limitation (i.e. xp bonus for only certain things/situations). Point is that it’s all hard coded – the same as how a “holy avenger” sword is hard coded for use only by good aligned characters. Not good aligned, then can not equip/use. Simple. Same goes for every class or alignment restricted item.
Point = again, thinking about it strictly from a gaming standpoint, it’s surprising that these XP potions are not hard coded with some level limit – 30, 40, whatever. Higher than the level limit? Can’t use/won’t work. 80th level player would either be unable to drink them (turn’s to purple mush) or they have no effect. Drink one or 1,000,000 – won’t work/SOL. However, it’s the basis for this story’s plot so just accepting that it is what it is.
@ROE2 – While you may not be able to trade for them in the game, you didn’t mention whether you could PK for them in the actual game. Obviously hit or miss, but don’t see why XP pots wouldn’t drop along with the defeated player’s other items. If so, and especially if they stack (i.e. you can have more than one in inventory), pretty good incentive for high level players to PK low level ones. BTW, I’m not endorsing that, but IMO that’s exactly why that kind of stuff has hard coded restrictions.
Well, only confirmed fact is that it can’t be trade so dropable or not is debatable.
Mayhaps the item is both untradable and undropable?
The point that people keep trying to make is that a lot of the hard coded restrictions no longer apply. The line between game and reality is blurry in this show. And that seems to be the point. The players themselves don’t know exactly where the line always is.
If the pots couldn’t be traded in the ‘game’odds are they weren’t droppable either. I doubt the author purposely left a loophole like that in place (though he may not have described it perfectly). If he said they couldn’t be traded in the game, then I’d say that it’s pretty simple what he intended: this abuse wasn’t possible until they became trapped and a number of the game rules became possible to circumvent.
@KaleRylan: If the pots couldn’t be traded in the ‘game’odds are they weren’t droppable either.
Not necessarily even in terms of more “likely than not” being the case. At least for some games, even equipped “unremovable” cursed items ARE dropped upon NPC or PC kills. Any and all PC equipment is dropped upon death. However, items which are restriction hard-coded do NOT lose those restrictions. Thus if “xyz hax sword of many kills” is usable only by NPC A, killing him/her/it for the sword does NOT allow it to be used by the PC or anyone else but the now deceased NPC A. Oh, I probably should also add that theoretically, XP POTs could be stolen (pick pocket) as well.
– If he said they couldn’t be traded in the game, then I’d say that it’s pretty simple what he intended: this abuse wasn’t possible until they became trapped and a number of the game rules became possible to circumvent.
I got what was “intended”. My point was that it was (IMO) a poor/incomplete method of restriction. See above about drops on kills along with the now added possibility to “pick-pocket”. I’m sure there’s other methods as well without even going into developer consoles, game save editors & other hacks.
– The point that people keep trying to make is that a lot of the hard coded restrictions no longer apply.
Perhaps I’m mistaken, but I don’t see what’s going on here as a hard-code restriction being REMOVED (= “does not apply anymore”), but instead CIRCUMVENTED – huge difference. The former literally means that the game code has changed. Ex: Before, monks could not use any weapons, but now they can use staffs and daggers. That’s a change to the game’s program code. Where/when has that happened? The latter, circumvent/skirting the rules, is like someone under age getting an older person to buy them beer. Still illegal, they just found away around “the rules”. That’s the situation here as I understand it. Because you don’t need a screen command to transfer things, you can now “trade” formerly “untradable” items.
That’s my whole point – hard code level restrictions and this whole “problem” doesn’t happen. Only way a level 80 or 90 PC can use the XP POTs is to lose levels until they meet the restriction. Kind of defeats the purpose. 😉 Oh, I suppose there’s another possible loop hole found in some games: Pause game -> open inventory -> activate a usable item in inventory -> while still paused swap it with desired UNusable item -> unpause the game. Presto – your PC single class fighter can now use a “mage only” scroll/wand/etc. or your PC single class mage can drink a “fighter only” potion of whatever. Doesn’t work for all games so it is possible to hard code against that abuse as well.
– I doubt the author purposely left a loophole like that in place (though he may not have described it perfectly).
Maybe he just didn’t think about it. Happens all the time.
@daikama:
needing to actually cook to make food has nothing to do with code, or circumventing code. You, and others, are trying to use game rules on this, but the game rules no longer apply 100%. Some apply. Such as class abilities. Some do not. Such as certain trade restrictions, or how certain skills work.
This is literally the plot of the entire show. I don’t know why people find this so hard to understand. This is not SAO. Unlike that show, in this one the game is not working as intended. That is the mystery that the characters, and we the viewers, are trying to figure out. What works, what doesn’t, and why.
You are literally inventing a fact that you don’t know, and then getting angry about it. Even if the restriction was hard-coded, the rules don’t work. They could just say that doesn’t work too.
@KaleRylan:
Well, I guess you know something I don’t because I thought the premise was that the characters are “trapped” inside an actual PC MMORPG game. That seems to be the case since we get computer game things like classes, sub-classes levels, HP, skills, pop-up info screens, “friend list telepathy”, etc. The OP repeats on and on “LIVING IN A DATABASE”. That’s pretty much all ones & zeroes. You mention “cooking food” as “proof”. What proof? It’s just the opposite. The fact you NEED a “chef” class shows there’s some kind of game like code involved. Have you every cooked anything in RL? Do you have a “chef sub-class”, or were you able to actually cook (insert food item here)? Never took a cooking class, but shockingly enough, I cooked a number of dishes, some involved following specific recipes, and for the most part everything turned out at least pretty good. Never *poof* – purple mush.
Again, “some rules not working/not the same” =/= no program or code at all. Game exploits are based upon the very fact that there ways to take advantage of the “rules not working as intended.” REGARDLESS – that entire discussion is NOT the topic of my original post. You STILL misunderstand my point which was I was simply thinking about the “XP POTS issue” in terms of RPG/MMORPG game design. A spur of the moment observation from and RPG creation/coding perspective as it reminded me of exploits from games I had played. Please note: my first sentence of my original post starts with “Thinking about it from an RPG game stand point…”. Later I wrote (KEY!) “However, it’s the basis for this story’s plot so just accepting that it is what it is.”. So, contrary to your assertion – I DO get “it”.
I’ll try once more to make this clear. My original post was simply – “looking SOLELY (KEY) at this issue from a game creation/design/development standpoint, the best way to handle something like this is to hard code usage restrictions and only use transferability restrictions as an extra safety measure. That’s it. I “only” have on/off RPG gaming experience (no MMO) so it’s been harder to join in the post ep “conversation” since the discussion often turns to RL MMORPG comparisons/reminiscing. I found a topic in which I do have relevant RL gaming experience and thought I might join the discussion. My mistake – lesson well learned.
Rather than “upset”, I’m frustrated that despite numerous attempts, I seem to be unable to convey my point. Hopefully “third time is the charm” as the saying goes. I am also frustrated with myself for being drawn into a discussion that IMO is blown out of proportion due to misinterpretation. I could have put that time to better use. However, I find it difficult to ignore your accusations and insinuations, thus this reply.
Let me be perfectly clear. I’m not “inventing” anything. Your “proof” is no less opinion based than anything I have written. Furthermore, I am perfectly capable of “understanding” the show. The characters are somehow trapped in a PC computer game and the plot revolves around how they will “survive”, act, adapt, etc. to the situation, and (presumably) how they will escape. I highly doubt if you asked the author what the series is about, he would reply “Well, it’s a story where MMORPG players are somehow transported into the game, but the main focus of the story is for the reader to figure out which game rules no longer work.” BTW, “proof” for my view = Shiroe is forming a guild to change their living environment by focusing on the way players interact with each other. He’s not forming a debugging guild to discover what “rules” don’t work anymore” and apply a patch.
Clearly we are not going to agree which is fine – not the first people who had different opinions. However, please do not sanctimoniously allege/insinuate that I am incapable of “understanding the show”, “inventing things I don’t know”, etc. Frankly, given the content of your reply along with the fact that you have posted over 30 times for this episode alone, your comments strike me as more than just a bit hypocritical.
No, I don’t misunderstand your point. I’m saying you’re wrong. It’s called a disagreement. Why do people think that if someone doesn’t agree with their point they’re misinterpreting it? I can understand your point just fine and still think it’s wrong. People keep trying to define this show by the game rules. “this is bad design” “this could be done to fix it” “who would design a game like this”
Even if you decide this is how the code works, it’s still a pointless point. They are circumventing the trading restriction by physically handing the potions to another player. The company would not have accounted for that because unless players got magically trapped inside their monitors they couldn’t do that. Being able to break the game by physically existing inside the game is not a game design flaw.
And when I said you’re inventing something, I was talking about your dropping at death thing. We have no idea how the EXP pots work on death. Whether they’re dropped, or disappear, or whatever. Whether the writer intended untradeable to be the same as bound; we don’t know. You are assuming, and then disagreeing with your own assumption.
@daikama:
And why do people keep mentioning that I’ve posted a lot? I’m sitting at home right now, and I’m bored. You can go look through the history of the website and you’ll see that other than very recently I rarely post at all.
I don’t think being bored for a weekend is some kind of crime.
I read the novel once, but I don’t think it was mentioned whether it could not be traded before or after the the players went into the game…
Those exp pots shouldn’t be trade-able and should be character-bound.
Best pic ever
https://randomc.net/image/Log%20Horizon/Log%20Horizon%20-%2006%20-%20Large%2009.jpg
exp pots are taken from the characters when they themselves took them out
exp pots are not trade-able if in the items menu in the game
And they should be Level Caped, only Level of 10 and down, could use it. Voila, only in Teacher mode, or Lowbies, can use them. so exploit is needed
But, today the MMOs are smarter. In the beginning, it was all goodwill. Later they must put Rules for “Fair Play”
But not let forget the Dark Side of Shiroes “5 Million Gold” Strategic. If he begin to Monopolize the Food, sure he will gain extremeness new “members”. But also Envy
i bet there will be some called “friends” that just want to steal the secret of making this Food and perhaps “hijacking” the Guild Bank (mostly for Gold)
Or they will be the Nr1 Raiding Target if they set their Foot outside of the City, hijacking for Food
Remember, this is all a Game. Deaths are not real, you re spawn every time on your Hometown, and can retry it. In bad case, even that you can exploit.
“kamikaze” Attacks, with losing fear of Death. Rush in Attacks or Assaults, without thinking of coming out again, just Die to re spawn in your Hometown. Good for just spread Chaos
Yes, even this dirty little tricks was used to invoke fear and to control the others
I have seen many things.
I would imagine once his plan is through, he’ll just let the knowledge out. I think it’s mainly for this one step that he’s using the food. And we don’t his whole plan yet. I doubt selling hamburgers is all there is.
Me begins to think, that with this 5 Mio Credits, he Buy Out the Guild Hall for Himself. So that the other Guilds will lose their HQ
But to persuade the “Homeless” Guilds now, to leave the Town, is on other paper…
Or, he Buy all EXP Potions on Market and put them back with an Insane Price, that no one can Pay…
The huge resemblance between shiroe and minamoto really scares me. Btw stilts,i too got the chills at the end when he announced the guild name ^^
I wonder if he’s planning to somehow buy the hamelin guild hall… That’s the first thing that came to mind when he said he needed money.
I don’t know how it’d be possible, though. I assume you can’t buy it while it’s occupied, but maybe there’s a loophole to make it so that the guild hall does not count as occupied.
Hah. I just thought of something really silly. The rules are obviously that guild members of a guild must agree to sell their guild hall, and all the imprisone kids ARE guild members. I wonder if this is something he’s going to make use of.
Perhaps he can trick the other guild members to leave the guild hall so that only the prisoners remain, then he’ll make them sell the guild to him. Then Log Horizon will have an epic guild hall 😀
So for all viewers who haven’t/don’t want to read the source material, NHK just aired an hour long Log Horizon Q&A special. It does a decent job, so I’d just wait a few days until someone subs that if you want official explanations.
Interesting. Is it an interview with the writer or something?
Actually, never mind. Watched it and it seems to be a recap episode, the title threw me off a bit. All you get are some new screens for episode 7 and some basic commentary.
This is definitely a good idea. Unfortunately Shiroe is a guy who thinks way too much and explains way too much for everything to get on an anime. Heck, I read the novels and even I can’t recall a lot of the details he spouts. I had to double check back to the book to make sense of things. Log Horizon is certainly written in a much more meticulous manner than a typical LN.
I’m blaming this game because I’m subbing to a new mmorpg again
ff14ar and that really FUN SO FAR !!
Nyanta in RL. lol
http://f.ptcdn.info/984/011/000/1384128086-1351790511-o.png
New theory of mine:
I’m not getting it: The world has a history, but there are NPCs and Adventurers. If it’s so can it be that the NPCs are the “real humans” and that the Adventurers are not?
Also pic I found in the internet:) Not spoilery. But it’s similar to the OP so I guess this is where they based the OP.
http://i.imgur.com/DEuohoG.jpg
Compared to adventurers the NPCs/people of the land are certainly more of what you would expect “real humans” to be like.
That image is from Show Spoiler ▼
Wow, great pic.
I haven’t seen or ready any LN source material. What do you think about the OP? In the OP there were 2 worlds shown. Could they be in an artificial world or something?
Just a random thing I thought after seeing this, I think the IRL Akatsuki is not a loli, probably about the same height as Shiroe and looks a it more mature. She might even somehow resemble Sejougahara. They’d really make a cute couple lol.
Here are some manga images to show the full extent of Akatsuki’s humiliation.
http://i.imgur.com/knVMX8a.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/sZNFGAu.jpg%5B
I think the drama-angst in this mmo setting actually does make sense, and it doesn’t seem that far fetched or arbitrary. Log Horizon’s own catch phrase “This is our reality” really makes the game world feel like reality. While the twins could simply leave the guild, the situation for leaving the guild may be even worse than staying, in Akihabara’s current state. They wouldn’t be able to train in hunting spots without a guild’s protection, or at least it’s much harder. They risk getting pked, they may “die” of starvation, and they won’t have anyone else to rely on. While it’s still just a game, and there isn’t death, this is their reality now. It’s not so easy to just leave and fend for themselves when they lack the power to do so.
Anbd High Level Gilds, protecting their Hunting grounds. So, where to do their Quests? If the Grounds are not Access able? Daily Quests?
Perhaps they need the Guild, for making “Gil”
Great ep needs more Haseo though.
It’s just me, or Nyanta’s seyuu it’s the same as the narrator of Junichi/Sae arc, in Amagami?
Ps.(non related): BABY STEPS ANIME!!!! *____*
Correct Mr RBFullMetal.
Not only that, Nyanta is also Kotomine Kirei from Fate Stay Night. That alone makes him a bad ass with class
So now we know where the title of the show comes from.
Been wandering some pretty strange MMOs myself and to say it mildly, guilds often were the hotbed of power abuse. On free-pvp servers wars raged for years sometimes, fuelled by “taxation” of non-combatants. On non-pvp servers, luring monsters on opposing players was rampant, to the extent strong monsters were often lured into cities to wreak havoc on low level players. Travel between the cities was often nigh impossible for low levels.
I wonder if Shiroe is intending to create fast food chain to dominate the server economy? Whatever his plan is, I bet it is much more sophisticated than brute force.
Also, I demand Akatsuki in summer dress endcard!
I’m surprised more ppl arent talking/wondering about the monk girl that’s constantly showing up in his flashbacks. The way it’s shown, it’s implying that she was pretty important to Shiroe and possibly his pillar of support/ex-love interest.
In a previous flashback, when they showed the old Fuwa Fuwa Tea Party at THE horizon, she seemed like the “mood-maker” and maybe the glue that bound the group together.
Aside: How did he remember the beautiful horizon/Tea Party like that when it was just pixels/polygons?? :p (not a serious question)
Oh hey..a recap episode numbering 6.5 is out. :3
and the preview for Ep7 is different & more interesting than the one in Ep6.
http://on.fb.me/1eIU6wo (link to a public fb page)
A comment about your saying it’s a late 90’s early 2000’s MMO for having 100+ players needed to take out a boss.
Guild Wars 2 has a boss that requires upwards of 100+ players (Tequatl the Sunless for those who do play). It is 2013 and that is not a minor MMO. So…It really depends, I would think, on the developers, because some appear to still be putting this kind of content into their games.
Ep 07, my Summary
See, even Real World Skills, can come handy in a MMO 🙂 In this point, the Cooking Skills, and “Money handling”
But it can work the other way around, too
in my Youth, i was mostly raiding for 6-8 Hours with my Guild. Sure at beginning i was a Noob, and made my Mistakes. But with the help of the Guild and Friends, i began to master it, and Raids was better. Well, in the end, we needed to stay Alert of Boss spawn, because they began to add the “random spawn boss after Server restart” function for not camping the Boss spots. But then “First get, first win!” and be on Standby, train you to concentrate for more then 6-9 Hours. Well, right now this “Trained” Skill, it help me a lot in my current work a lot. When i compare to “uptodate” raids where 3 hours are just to Long… We was the true Hardcore Raiders at that time
..oh, and finally we see Akatsuki in a Cute Dress.. They heard us 🙂
btw, this Picture is a Proof, that the Guild Master and her Vice Guild Master are Adults in the real World… Why? Look at her drinks, comapred to the other Juice ones…
https://randomc.net/image/Log%20Horizon/Log%20Horizon%20-%2006%20-%20Large%2002.jpg
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