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「 勇気の飛翔 」 (Yuuki no Sora)
“Sky of Courage”
Author’s Note: I’m filling in for Zephestopheles this week – he’ll be back with Toaru Hikuushi for Episode 11.
I don’t mean to turn this into a full-on “gender roles in anime” post, but – wow. Just wow.
More and more it seems that Toaru Hikuushi e no Koiuta is turning into one of those shows I like in spite of itself – or in spite of myself, depending on how you look at it. I can sit back and pick this series apart pretty mercilessly, and there seem to be not a few moments in every episode that introduce the head to the desk with extreme prejudice. Yet more often that not I’m caught up in what’s happening anyway, which is a testament to the execution of the dramatic side of things.
I’ll get to the those head-desk moments soon enough, but there were some nice things happening here early on, starting with the long overdue reveal about Igancio’s past. There are no huge surprises here – a bastard son of a concubine and probably Karl’s half-brother isn’t far off from what I and I suspect most of you would have guessed. But as usual the execution sells the moment, and the timing and circumstances (beating the crap out of Karl while knee-deep in a pond) of Ignacio’s coming out party (even if it was via narration) were pretty effective.
There’s a tendency with this series not to tell the audience much. That’s fine to a point, but we’re only two episodes from the end now and we’re only just finding out who Ignacio is. We still don’t really know why Isla is where it is doing what it’s doing, and why the Waterfall at the End of the Universe is so damn important, or who the Sky Clan are. We can infer certain things based on the scraps of information we get, and sometimes be on the mark – but I think Toaru Hikuushi would have been better served to lay out the stakes in plainer terms earlier in the story. It’s executed the “what” part pretty well, but struggled with the “why”.
I continue to be amazed at the sheer incompetence of Isla’s military leadership, and I’m glad to see that finally having a real impact on the minds of the characters. When Melze demands that the students go out on a suicide mission to escort their observation plane during the next Sky Clan attack, Bandareas and Palez both snap – in quite different ways. Sonia, in fact, quits the military on the spot rather than carry out the order – and she appeals to the surviving students to evacuate with the civilians rather than follow it themselves. That’s the sort of thing that can get you a date with a firing squad during wartime, and it took considerable guts for her to do so – but not all of the students are of a similar mind.
Here’s where the episode totally lost me, though. I hated pretty much every moment of the next few minutes – the leaden, hackneyed speeches by the boys, the simpering of the girls, and most of all the incredibly sexist way it all played out. When Mitsuo died and Chiharu survived I had the same thought briefly, but that was one time – this is now a pattern. The girls all tearfully stay behind while the brave boys go off to give their lives, ordering them to come back safe from their suicide mission – I mean, seriously? I’m of the view that none of the students should have gone, personally, given that the entire scenario was set up by the incompetence of their leaders and they didn’t stand to be of much use anyway – but even if you buy Noriaki (who seems to be acting mostly out of guilt about Mitty’s death) and Karl’s reasoning here, to have it play out like something from the 30’s left a very bad taste in my mouth. I’m surprised the girls didn’t promise to have a nice hot meal waiting when the boys came back from the fight.
Well, that is what it is, and there’s nothing to be done about it. And the rest of the ep was fine – as usual, the combat scenes were quite good. I was especially pleased to see Ignacio actually fighting with a proper weapon, though his ridiculous skill with it might test realism somewhat. My greatest hope at this point is that the last couple of episodes give some meaning to all this carnage. I’d like to see this series placed in context with the larger mythology, and the reasons why the story has played out as it has fleshed out in considerably more detail. More realistically, though, if we have a definitive conclusion for Karl and Claire I’d consider that coming out ahead of the game.
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Indeed the scenes where the boys volunteered to be sacrificed was incredibly sappy however I can’t help but think that the overlying logic is sound (and probably what the writer is aiming for).
The Isla military is in shambles, outnumbered, potentially outgunned and only 1 observer plane to determine enemy location. Maybe they should’ve sent more, or maybe that’s the only one they have left, hell, I’m as irritated that they won’t even bother giving the students better planes but their situation is clear, the Isla military will lose if there is no reinforcements. One or two trainee planes may or may not make a difference but if they did, like in Mitsuo’s case, it managed to turn the tide. I know it feels way too scripted but it would also work to Karl’s coming of age story.
It could have played out a little better if some of the girls stayed and fight but I guess that might undermine the boy’s sacrifices. I hope it all ends well though, and maybe we’ll get a comeback from the Holy Levamme Empire? Please?
Igna’s story was very good~ A lot of people don’t understand children always seem to think problems are their fault, so seeing Ignacio react that way was heartbreaking. At least he thinks now it wasn’t his fault (I hope?).
Bleh I have seen enough of characters like Ignacio to be sick of them. They are usually hypocrites and never get any real comeuppance. Watch him go on being a self-righteous prick, live out the war in safety and end up with the best girl to spite the audience.
To my eyes Ignacio did Kal-El a favor pointing out that everyone what they can in this difficult times and he´s not the only suffering but the guy doesn´t seem to understand Kal´s pain at all, he´s a victim of the Wind Revolution as much as Claire´s was just the tool, the poor kid is not at fault because of his father´s sins and the mistakes of the goverment and certainly didn´t deserve to wactch his parents died like that. I feel for him for his horrible childhood he´s indeed a self-righteous idiot, “You took Claire´s deam away”, well I like the girl a lot but she´s not sin free in this story, even when she was a marionette she´s still partly responsible for the deaths of Kal´s parents so this just karma paying her back. (Don´t misunderstand I´m all in for the Kal-ElXClaire ship but the girl has to face what mistakes she commited in order to move on)
Well, in wars, especially those of the past, wasn’t it like that?
Men going to the front while the women stay? I am thinking that Isla still subscribes to that notion.
WRT to using the trainer planes, I’m of the opinion that they prioritise “proper military equipment” to replace those that were lost when the regulars do battle. Thus that left the trainees to just rely on the trainer planes.
Anyway, addressing Enzo’s continued amazement with Isla’s High Command, I still think it’s rather reasonable or feasible that they continue to make blunders. I think history has shown this…. Be in fight to the last round and blood in the cold wintery steppes or the scorching hot deserts, or lay waste your last few resources into an assault that was supposedly to throw the enemy back to a port. So yea Enzo….. When it comes to the blunders that Isla High Command is making, I’m totally cool with it.
Speaking of that, seeing Annie’s decision to quit on the spot, Bandereas clear refusal to follow orders and the students themselves, it’s still reasonable. I’m currently reading Whermacht’s Last Witnesses and I’m on the chapter where they’re facing defeats after defeats. The thoughts of the soldiers as well as the characters were rather similar in some ways although in this episode, it felt a little bit over dramatic and too dramatised at times
The fact that half the cadets are girls and that they’re undergoing exactly the same training as the boys sort of undercuts your argument…
Tbh, given that this show is modeled after a post-WWI world, I think it’s remarkable how little gender inequality there seems to be in the setting. Seriously, does every show need to reflect today’s values? If anything, I’d say the 50:50 ratio is what’s unrealistic here.
Isla is doing what it’s doing because it’s part exploration expedition and part political exile, I think the show has mentioned that quite a few times already. As for what’s so important about the stuff they’re looking for – you have to remember the people in this world literally have no idea what their world is like, to casually dismiss their effort at exploration is akin to dismissing Magellan and Columbus, or the multitude of countless other explorers – after all, what’s so important about the stuff they were looking for anyway?
This is just one in a series of novels that take place in this world, and for better or worse the focus has always been on the characters rather than the grand mythology behind the world.
As far as the military – personally I believe it’s something that civilians will never understand. In war there are times when you will be asked to make the ultimate sacrifice, be they grizzled veterans or boot recruits. What you don’t do however, is take it upon yourself to decide which order to follow, especially if you’re making that decision based on nothing but your own odds of survival.
We jump on grenades for each other, not kicking it to another guy.
As for the story, Isla is out-numbered and out-gunned, with no resupply and no reinforcement possible, facing an enemy that does not negotiate nor accepts surrender, in a critical battle that will decide if Isla will live to see the next day, what good exactly does it do to run away and hide? What were the cadets going to do once the defense is wiped out? Ask the Sky Clan nicely not to kill them?
Luna Balco is their first and only real line of defense, and for the battleship to do its job, it needs spotters, and while sending the cadets to defend the spotter is hardly optimal, it’s the best bad choice of the bunch.
The 50/50 ratio is part of the setting, whether it is modeled after the WWI which didn’t have that split doesn’t change that. You can’t suddenly go back and go “but it would make sense if that part was modeled after WWI too” since it isn’t.
So you’re fine with 50/50 being part of the setting, but suddenly not fine with the traditional gender role also being part of the setting? You and Enzo seems to be under the presumption for whatever reason that just because there is an equal split in the gender of a single class of cadets, somehow that means everything else in that world must also be the same.
By that logic, since Balesteros overthrew their monarchy, every other nation in that world must also switch to a democracy, Levamme Empire included, otherwise the show would be peddling imperialistic ideology.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not against gender equality in any way, but I get annoyed when it gets a bit ridiculous – such as in a fictional world mirrored after a time period where there was plenty of gender inequality and traditional roles reign surpreme, just because of the cast of characters.
And when the War was getting bleak for Japan, the army started training women as civilian defenders of the homeland. I don’t think they were hoping it would have had to come down to that.
I wouldn’t be surprised if people in non-combat roles in the military receive some sort of combat training. But that’s neither here nor there.
In the world of Toaru Hikuushi e no Koiuta, it was increasingly clear that a lot of the students had absolutely no idea they were signing up to take part in suicide missions, and were probably under the impression they would be taking up surveilance roles.
Your opinion here seems more politically charged than Connosseur-oriented.
It’s one of the biggest issue I have with the setting. These so-called “cadets” behaves more like a bunch of junior high kids at a summer camp than actual soldiers, which is what they’re supposed to be. I find it somewhat incredible (and totally expected, this is an anime/LN after all) that after 4+ months of training they’ve displayed almost zero improvement in discipline and intestinal fortitude.
Nobody ever signs up for suicide missions – because you don’t have to, it’s simply part of the job.
Not sure if that was directed at me, but if it is, I’d like to know what exactly did I write that was politically charged.
I am a bit confused here, I thought they signed up to be pilots not expecting full time combat yet was forced to train in a short period of time to be fighting while being a trainee. How can they all really adapt to treating each other with duties over emotion. Like what I got from it was they didnt want the women to fight not because they are weak it’s because they just wanted to protect them because that’s what guys do.. even today. Do you feel right to not protect your girlfriend??
also and ya havin relationships in the military isnt a good idea because when it comes down to it I’m sure alot people would f up the missions to save the females.
@Enzo: FWIW, I agree with your take of the situation overall. IMO, Cirith states it well: “The 50/50 ratio is part of the setting…”. Mixed gender for Isla’s Airforce training is simply part of the “in-universe” setting. So I did find it odd that suddenly, all the women were swept aside when clearly there was no problem with them fighting before. In fact, why have women in the pilot training program at all if they are not going to be used in battle eventually? It’s inconsistent with the given “in-universe” setting in that regard.
However, I think what happened can be at least partly reconciled if you remove the gender issue – not men or women, but individuals. Most of these individuals thought “Screw this. The instructor is right. I’m out of here.” Right or wrong, for whatever reason, that’s the decision they made. A couple of other individuals (who happen to be male), thought “I’d rather die than do nothing.”
Of course the fact that it breaks down into only the guys heading off to battle is hard to ignore, but we are given some reasons other than “that’s our orders” for their decision (e.g. for Noriaki it’s “redemption/guilt”). While this line of thought may not be completely convincing, for me taking such an outlook makes what happened more palatable. YMMV.
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@J_the_Man: True about the IJA home island defense plans, though IMO a better example would be women like WWII Soviet fighter pilot ace Lydia Litvyak. Though rare, women did serve in WWII Soviet Armed Forces, including infantry and even in a few in tank crews.
@Mike: “What you don’t do however, is take it upon yourself to decide which order to follow, especially if you’re making that decision based on nothing but your own odds of survival.”
Your comment reminded me of a passage from Ambrose’s D-Day: After his DUKW sunk, Sgt. Otlowski, a veteran of North Africa and Sicily campaigns, was picked up along with his crew and transferred to a Rhino ferry for transport to Omaha Beach. The Rhino hit a sand bar, and the lieutenant in charge then ordered testing of the surrounding water’s depth.
What good would it have done for Sgt. Otlowski or his men to needlessly sacrifice their lives to satisfy one lieutenant’s ignorance? How would that have contributed meaningfully to the Allies success?
I’m fully aware of the reasons, the logical necessity for maintaining military chain of command. If soldiers objected every time they were ordered into a potentially deadly situation, few if any orders would ever be followed. However, there are some limited, rare cases in which stupid/ignorant orders which needlessly waste lives should be questioned. Meaningful sacrifice (i.e. giving up something to keep or gain something in return) is one thing. Needless/pointless ordered suicide is another. IMO, the trainees had good reason to take Sonia’s advice in this particular situation.
IMO, Isla’s “Admiral” is incompetent and should have been replaced long ago. He’s akin to some army general stuck in a WWI mindset and too arrogant to consider he might be wrong. As a result of his “leadership”, a division or corps under his command during WWII suffers disastrously high casualty rates, and at best, achieves limited success.
For example, successive, straight ahead “banzai” charges into entrenched enemy MG positions (i.e. WWI tactics) might finally overwhelm the position, but it’s a stupid, highly questionable order when a flanking maneuver done under coordinated fire and movement would accomplish the same thing with much, much fewer casualties.
Isla is ALREADY running out of pilots if not planes as well. If all the trainees are killed off trying to fulfil some suicide mission with lottery type odds of success, where will future replacements for those lost pilots be found? A war of attrition is NOT something Isla can win.
To quote General George S. Patton “No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.”
Which is why I specifically said “…based on nothing but your own odds of survival”
And I disagree. I see nothing here other than Sonia’s reluctance to see further cadet casualties, which is sorely misguided.
I don’t think you quite understand the situation at hand. If they lose this battle, there IS NO TOMORROW to worry about running out of pilots or planes. This is their Alamo, it’s literally do or die here. As I said above, Luna Balco is Isla’s only real defense, if Luna Balco falls, so does Isla. Isla was never going to win a war of attrition, but I fail to see how getting slaughtered immediately is supposed to be better.
The facts are simple:
1. If Luna Balco falls, Isla falls.
2. Without proper spotter support, Luna Balco will not survive an engagement with another capital ship.
3. The Sky Clan does not negotiate, they take no prisoners. This wasn’t really expanded upon in the anime I don’t think, but the reason why the people in Toaru knows so little about their world is because of the Sky Clan, which annihilates and massacres every single expedition that comes their way.
With all of their remaining forces committed, tell me how does the cadets hiding does any good? What they’re doing is literally nothing more than running away from the battlefield due to fear of dying, while further diminishing the odds of EVERYONE living to see the next day.
And John Basilone totally yelled to his Marines to get their ass back to the ship and run away on Iwo Jima or to stay put on the beach and do nothing.
Oh wait, he didn’t.
@Mike: Give me a break. General Patton was an idiot according to you. Guess you think that CINPAC Admiral Nimitz was also idiot for ordering Admirals Fletcher and Spruance to operate under the principle of calculated risk for the Battle of Midway – which WAS a “do or die” battle for the Pacific War. Had the US lost, the IJN would have free reign in the Pacific for at least the rest of 1942. Of course that means Sgt. Basilone wouldn’t have even been on Guadalcanal 3 months or so later when he performed his Medal of Honor heroics.
– And John Basilone totally yelled to his Marines to get their ass back to the ship and run away on Iwo Jima or to stay put on the beach and do nothing. Oh wait, he didn’t.
LOL, no he didn’t because the assault on Iwo Jima was NOT a pointless suicide mission with at best a single digit chance of success. In fact, IIRC, the overall invasion was never in serious doubt with the US ultimately winning the battle. I struggle to understand how your point is relative to a situation which you describe as “an Alamo/do or die.” One is an outnumbered, defensive last stand. The other an offensive assault with superior firepower AND ground forces – nowhere near the same situation. The US struggled at times at Iwo Jima, but the outcome was certain by that point in the war.
If this truly is an “Alamo” as you describe, then everyone is going to die anyway. If this truly is an “Alamo, do or die” situation as you say, then why did you argue against my point about Ariel not returning to combat? As I mentioned, in some RL battles those who could fight to any extent – injured, old, young or otherwise as long as they could fire a gun, were ordered into battle during such desperate situations as you suggest this is. Mount an MG for her and Ariel can still fire and aim it with one arm.
After all, it’s a suicide mission – an attempt to buy a few minutes of time for the spotter which might/possibly allow him/her to find the target’s exact position, so the more “alternative targets” the better. Well, as long as the enemy fighters don’t remain focused on the spotter plane and shoot it down anyway… oh wait, that’s what happened.
– The facts are simple
Perhaps if you read the LN, but I haven’t. Seems to me, as you imply, that quite a bit of crucial information was cut by the anime which is certainly not my fault. What happened to all those torpedo bombers and fancy aerial torpedoes from the last battle? Why did this suddenly turn into a WWI gunship battle vs. WWII Carrier based battle like the previous battle? And yes, BTW, I’m perfectly cognizant of how gunship/artillery spotters work, thank you.
In fact, I wondered why only ONE plane was issued the role of spotter given just how critical that role is. I wonder why, when in RL (e.g. Battle of Midway), scout planes frequently survived on their own even against carrier CAP, often by ducking into cloud cover (which seems to be the problem here), the spotter plane in the anime seems to constantly stay in in plain view for some unknown reason.
Rather than take some pointless suicide mission as spotter plane fighter protection (well, except for Ignacio and his can’t miss magic gun), I wondered why the trainees were not ordered out as additional scouts/spotters. Didn’t they perform that type of mission before? They must be able to perform that function since, now that the “official” spotter plane is lost, someone’s going to have to spot for Luna Balco or Isla is doomed as you say. Perhaps if that order (to scout/spot) was given, one where the trainees might have a reasonable chance to survive, we wouldn’t have had all the theatrics. They simple go about their mission.
That was my point really. I didn’t say they should “run away and hide” and do nothing else. Rather, as I illustrated in my “bonzai charge vs. flanking maneuver example, I thought it was reasonable not to obey a pointless suicide mission, not ALL missions. Just because it’s “do or die” does NOT necessarily mean there are no better alternative tactics/options available. If you wish to disagree, that’s fine, but I do not agree with the needless slaughter of troops because of command incompetence.
Finally, what ever happened to your prior position of “I mean, I’d never get to enjoy most action/military shows if I keep pointing out all the non-sensicle things in them”, or “If I was like you, I’d never be able to enjoy any action/war movie/TV/anime, because almost none of them ever gets actual combat right, with a large majority that can’t even hold their weapons correctly.”? It’s just anime, right, so who cares if it’s realistic or not? Besides, just a guess on my part since I haven’t read the LN, but something tells me Isla will survive despite the trainees desertion.
Sigh, I don’t think you really understand what “do or die” means here. Your analogy would be correct, if the result of US losing Midway was the immediate, complete and utter destruction of the entire United States. Now that doesn’t mean taking calculated risk is bad, but it does mean that certain things goes from “it’d be good to have, but the war is not lost if we don’t get it” to “we HAVE to do this, or everyone dies”.
…because I was talking about what real soldier/Marines do when faced with **** thrown from the fan.
Having her take up the spot of a gunner when there are other able-bodied soldiers would be a waste of the few planes they have left.
Yea, because the spotter plane had such a sizable escort…
Which will place the them in the exact same area as they would be if they were flying escort for the spotter. How exactly does that suddenly change into a “reasonable chance to survive” from “suicide mission”? You’re charging up that same hill, incoming rounds don’t care if you’re there to fight or out for a picnic.
And my point is that it’s not the place for the troops to start making their own command decisions. It’s important to view this in the correct context, as far as the cadets/trainer goes, it was literally only about whether they’d live through that fight or not, not a single **** was given to the overall situation or what would happen if the mission was a failure, something that their instructors especially should know. Sonia might as well have said “let’s all run to the shelter so we can all die together later, but at least we’ll live a little while longer.”
Uh, that hasn’t changed, which is why I don’t actually have much issues with the story itself. I think it’s pretty clear my posts has been mostly about what other people had said – ie. I don’t mind that the cadets deserted in the story, it is what it is, not like they’ve ever behaved like real soldiers. I however object when people started saying their actions were actually reasonable.
Well, was it ever in doubt that Superman was going to beat Zod? No amount of firepower can defeat Plot Armor :p
Show Spoiler ▼
@Mike
So this is “do or die”and the admiral sends the least trained, least experienced, most poorly armed, and flying the least agile craft he has to defend the one spotter plane that must get through? Seems he was picked for his level of incompetence.
Sorry, there is a point where not following an unreasonable and obviously insane order is justified. For example, if ordered to shoot unarmed prisoners your violating military and international law and you can refuse the order. Now you can argue whether this was one of those cases, but their immediate commander told them to get on the bus. Two conflicting orders. Which do you obey? Does your commander have a right to order you to commit suicide? We’ve got a Medal of Honor recipient who violated an order to save his comrades. Should he have been subject to a Courts Martial instead?
On top of that, what was the need of a spotter plane before the Sky Clan utilized the smoke screen? They had binoculars but never heard of an optical rangefinder? They’re able to build VTOL and flying battleships but can’t do simple trig? Where they’re flying there’s no problem with line of sight.
@Mike
I was aiming at Enzo, not you.
@Schwegburt
The whole 50/50 argument is flawed, because you aren’t stating it in context. The kiddos were receiving basic combat training and were recruited for and being trained to perform scouting and surveillance, not to go on suicide missions and perform in actual combat. Under that context, we aren’t all of a sudden going all sexist here, because a non-combat role like that is going to have mixed gender.
No one came into this thing thinking they would have to go to war. They were heavily mis-lead into thinking this. The leaders never informed them that they were possibly going to be used as meat shields.
@Bear
Reply to your comment at the bottom… posting fail >_>;;
@Mike
I think the thing that isn’t clicking here is that this mission was *Pointless*. That is to say, there was *no point*. It is realistically capable of achieving *nothing*. How could these slow, unmaneuverable, poorly equipped planes with poorly trained pilots hope to “escort” the spotter?
They couldn’t. It’s not a matter of “If you don’t go, you’ll die anyway”. It’s a matter of “If you go, you won’t affect the outcome of the battle IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER.” Why then would you go? If they’re going to win, they’ll win. If not, the kids aren’t going to change that.
Mind you, I’m speaking from the remotely-realistic perspective. Obviously that’s not the route the anime is taking with these battles. Somehow these kids with their rifles are going to make a difference against far superior planes.
On that note, why would they even choose one of those models of planes to be the spotter? Why not a faster, more maneuverable model? They do seem to have them.
tl;dr Blindly following orders is stupid sorry bro
@Fulluphigh
And I think the thing that isn’t clicking here for you guys is that you don’t realize that you’re looking at it purely from a civilian mindset.
If being out-gunned and out-manned is enough of a reason for you to say that desertion is a valid course of action then all I can say is that you have zero clue about how actual soldiers think.
By your logic, Pvt.Daly would’ve deserted his position on Tartar Wall, instead of staying put and defended his position alone by himself while inflicting over 200 enemy casualties in the process, and Cpl. Meyer would’ve abandoned his fellow soldiers and Marines when their squad was ambushed by over 150 taliban fighters, instead of going into the kill zone repeatedly to evacuate pinned down/wounded allies and recover the bodies.
The point that some of you people doesn’t seem to be able to grasp is that it’s not about whether the mission may end up being a suicide mission, it’s about knowing what needs to be done and find to way to accomplish the mission, while giving it your all for those that are fighting besides you.
And yes, that includes those in the spotter plane and the crew of Luna Balco. You don’t leave people behind or hang them out to dry, you just don’t. MSgt. Gordon and SFC. Shughart sacrificed their lives to save the surviving crew of the downed Blackhawk, but I guess to you they were “stupid” because what difference could mere 2 soldiers make against a horde of Somali militias right?
Maybe you should ask the wife and kids of CWO4 Durant.
@Mike
I think your analogies are a bit off mate. Their actually rather horrible here. It’s as if we’re discussing two separate things.
I won’t claim to know or care much about who these fellows are, but I’ve added emphasis to the key difference here. That being, these are things that these soldiers were actually capable of achieving. I’m assuming Pvt. Daly wasn’t throwing sand at the enemy in hopes of inflicting those 200 casualties? And certainly both of those examples are of soldiers doing something extremely valiant, performing remarkable duties. Flying your crummy plane for no valid purpose other than making a nice fireworks show when you get blown up is not valiant or worthwhile.
If the pilots had been ordered to spread out and use the cloud cover to attempt to get within spotting range of the enemy craft, that’s one thing. But saying “Come magically escort this plane with your bolt action .22 caliber pea guns” is not worth dying for. Because you can’t help. They could realistically achieve nothing.
But, again, in the contexts of this animu, it will obviously work out. The plane piloted by not-main-character will likely be shot down, or at least one of the lads wounded, and one or the other plane will manage to spot for the gunship (which again begs the question, why only send one spotting plane) and save the day. Not to mention quiet-boy will shoot down countless enemy pleins with his giant rifle of +3 accuracy.
Not to mention, we have the benefit of being aware of the entire narrative. We know that this whole situation could have been avoided if the governing body hadn’t been so full of themselves, and so sure of the inferiority of the pitiful barbarians.
Also the portrayal of the female characters was just stupid, especially in the context of the rest of the anime.
@fulluphigh
We are discussing the same thing, but you’re looking at it from a purely civilian point of view, while I’m looking at it from a military one.
Frankly, Dan Daly, a former paperboy, arguably had worse odds than these cadets. He was alone at a forward position with nothing but his rifle and bayonet, and fended off repeated attacks throughout the entire night.
Sigh, where do you get the “no valid purpose” from? Was their order to fly up there and sit there and do nothing? No, their odds aren’t good, they are outgunned and outnumbered, but you know what the odds would be if they don’t go at all? zero.
TBH, I see this as a direct result of viewers buying what Sonia said at face value, something that would never have been uttered by a real soldier. This goes back to what I said in another post, most of the characters in this show behaves like civilians at a summer camp than actual soldiers.
Actually… no it couldn’t have been avoided. The anime skipped over it, but the Sky Clan operates on a Kill-them-all policy regarding anyone that comes to the Holy Spring, which is why the Holy Spring etc. has remained a myth until now, because the Sky Clan literally annihilated every single expedition that showed up. The only reason Admiral Alarcon returned from his earlier expedition is that he turned tail and ran back as soon as they caught sight of the Holy Spring, having theorized correctly why no expeditions had been successful before.
@Fulluphigh: Thanks for explaining what I’ve been trying to point out by repeatedly writing “meaningless”. Other than “dead-eye” Ignacio, the “escort” the trainees would provide is nothing but a paper bag defense. Besides, in late WWII, despite substantial (and I might add very competent) fighter escort, Allied bombers were still the primary target for German fighter-interceptors.
So I see no reason to assume that the additional trainee “escort” would force the Sky Clan fighters to target them rather than finish off the spotter first. Other than Karl/Ignacio, the rest of the trainees can be safely ignored unless we get more magic marksmanship.
That’s why I though having the trainees ordered to spread out and act as auxiliary spotters was a much more effective, available solution. Probably have a greater chance for survival as well. Mitty’s sacrifice as a scout/”spotter” was just that (i.e something gained for something given up). He died so the Isla torpedo planes could find the target. Sending the trainees up as CAP defense is just meaningless slaughter.
Besides, if the situation is so dire – “no tomorrow”, then why are the instructors, who are FAR more capable than the trainees (except Ignacio), grounded? Shouldn’t the most capable pilots be up in the air in this “do or die” situation? If there are “not enough planes”, then take one of the trainees’ planes.
Indeed, but that all comes back to the fact that none of these people behave remotely like they’re in a military, especially the trainers.
Did they take the initiative and take direct command of the cadets, which would’ve given them the ability to make tactical decisions in the air, such as scatter and try to act as additional spotters? No, all they did was to tell them to run and hide, nor did they ever made the slightest attempt to go up themselves.
Really, I’m not sure why you keep trying to point out the flaws in one situation, but continue to excuse an equally, if not more flawed response to said situation; or for that matter continually trying to downplay the seriousness of the situation they faced. It should be a no-brainer at this point in the story what would happen if Luna Balco goes down.
@Mike
Mate, I think you summed it up right there. If none of these people, including the bloody admiral, are behaving remotely like their in the military, why the hell would the cadets? Why should your logic apply to them and to the teachers telling them to run, and not to the higher ups making idiotic decisions in the first place?
And you keep pointing out that we’re thinking from a “civilian” perspective: This is blatantly obvious and completely pointless. If we’re not soldiers, it goes without saying we’re thinking from a civilian perspective. That has *nothing* to do with the objectively terrible orders and intelligent decision by the cadets not to sacrifice themselves.
I fail to see how 0 + 0 is somehow greater than 0. If the odds of zero of them going, and given the obvious fact that the odds of them contributing in a positive way are 0, well. Math.
Again, the argument I’m making here hinges on the idea that nobody has the frankly deus ex machinima aim of Ignacio.
Aaaaah. I see. That certainly seems like something that they probably should have mentioned in the anime =P Heck, I must have completely glossed over the fact that the “Admiral” had made a previous expedition to begin with. But good to know! Thanks man.
Forget the past, military conscription and national service still exist in many modern countries in the world for only males. (Speaking from first-hand experience) And I’m pretty sure you would not be sending women to war in the same numbers as men ever. That’s a good way to make sure population drops very quickly after all.
That’s an argument you would make in a general debate about women in the military (which I’m not remotely interested in having here). It’s not really relevant when you have a cadet corps that’s 50% male, 50% female, each undergoing the exact same training and assigned the same missions. The events that happened in this episode should only be viewed in that context, not as part of some larger philosophical debate.
I was not intending on discussing anything at length or in detail, I was only referring to c2710’s “Well, in wars, especially those of the past, wasn’t it like that?”.
A Citizen’s Army.
The wars of the past got undermined with the cadets going 50/50 male/female and getting sent out into the first battle 50/50 male female. All of the sudden turning around and going “j/k traditional roles now” completely undermines the original setup.
If they wanted to pull the traditional roles bull shit then they shouldn’t have done it in such a presumptuous manner. Just toss out the boy girl cadet thing and just make the girls cooks, nurses and secretary trainees who happen to live with “the guys”. Because that would basically yield the same result as this episode without the initial illusion that this show had a genderless military culture.
I’m fine with hte series as long as few conditions are met:
https://randomc.net/image/Toaru%20Hikuushi%20e%20no%20Koiuta/Toaru%20Hikuushi%20e%20no%20Koiuta%20-%2010%20-%20Large%20Preview%2003.jpg
-Claire and Karl get over their past, whether the ship does succeed or not.
https://randomc.net/image/Toaru%20Hikuushi%20e%20no%20Koiuta/Toaru%20Hikuushi%20e%20no%20Koiuta%20-%2010%20-%20Large%20Preview%2001.jpg
-Resident General Butcher meets his end in appropriately brutal manner.
Especially if any more redshirt cadets cash in their duly received deathflags.
https://randomc.net/image/Toaru%20Hikuushi%20e%20no%20Koiuta/Toaru%20Hikuushi%20e%20no%20Koiuta%20-%2010%20-%20Large%2020.jpg
And the whole gender roles problem could have been avoided if they really started with “women stay at home” system, quite historical. But then we could not have female cadets at all… So once you commit girls to the military, dont’t send them to reserve bench!
I think there is wisdom in not wanting females in the military- and it is not because they are incompetent.
The general whose name no one remembers isn’t exactly an evil person. He’s just not the greatest tactician in the world.
General Leopold Melze aka General Butcher is easily the most incompetent military leader in the history of anime, the death of Fausto gave a little bit guilt but uses children as cannon fodder. I have to say Isla´s military is starting to look more and more like the true monsters of the story, they´re the ones who started this war with the Sky Clan and have no problem sacrifacing inocents in oreder to win.
I’m usually a hundred percent behind a good romance. Usually. What really REALLY irritates me is when people just forgive other people and love them even when the partner is responsible for killing their family. I’m a selfish son of a B but I say that they shouldn’t be together because I would never, ever forgive her for the part she played. Hell, even Ignacio, the self-righteous punk. “You took her dreams away…”. Oh, excuse me, she had his parents killed. All should be forgiven. La-dee-da.
I don’t like being like this but in this instance the I wouldn’t forgive her. I’d man up and do my job, hopefully saving everyone else that I care about, but forgive her, lover her, it wouldn’t be in the cards.
remember, it was not Claire that sentenced his parents – and it seems it was selfish and short-sighted policies of their own that doomed the ancien regime…
Uh, she didn’t have his parents killed, she had about as much actual authority in the revolution as a block of wood (which, incidentally, is also how she behaved like for much of the revolution).
The part she played is simply fighting for the other side. She may have been the reason why the revolution was so successful so quickly, but she’s no more responsible for his parent’s deaths than any common soldier in the revolution.
And if you really want to go down that road, how many lives and families was the royal family responsible for destroying, including Claire’s own?
Well… let’s just say that if you had written Romeo and Juliet, it would end in about one sentence:
“Romeo and Juliet met each other, and proceeded to stab each other in the heart. The End”.
The perspective of a show influences greatly how people respond to it. It’s a me me me world. Because Karl is the protagonist it is how he sees the world that makes the story sway.
You are correct that Nina was not necessary the primary agitator for everything but she stood before Karl, had his head pushed to the floor right in front of her, as they took his father from him. She was the figurehead and used her abilities which greatly forwarded the revolution. She didn’t necessary make them do it all but she is the symbol of his parents being taken/killed.
As far as how Romeo and Juliet are concerned… Funny. No really. I smiled. I can’t say that I agree but I don’t necessarily disagree. However, their circumstances are far different from Karl’s. When considering Romeo and Juliet, it isn’t just Romeo but Juliet as well that are the antagonists and both go into their relationship with a give and take. Very very different from Karl’s circumstances, don’t you think?
Was that a freudian slip? I meant protagonists, not antagonists. 🙂
About the “men rules” moment, you have to put into perspective what’s happened. Benji finally found the guts to fight for the woman he loves, and even with the obvious death-flag, is a nice touch for a guy that has had an inferiority complex with Sharon, more so when she went full Band of Brothers in the ground defense.
Noriaki is so clumsy that the thinks that this will redeem him for what he said to Mitty; that and is clearly obvious that he knows that Nanako won’t do it anyways.
As for Igna’s past, I’m betting that King La Hire got him and his mother out of the palace to save them in case… well, and it happened.
Isla’s military is so in shambles that even the cadets can took any gun from the armory and use it without remorse (while Benji is still with the bolt-gun, Igna went full AT-gun)
LN author Koroku Inumura is currently writing a sequel LN to the Pilot’s Love Song.
He previously wrote a sequel too for the Princess and the Pilot.
I expected at least Karl to stay behind and maybe go after Claire to sort things out or something. Especially since,you know,they’ve got like 2 episodes left to reach a conclusion. I’m expecting a lackluster ending… Too much time has been wasted on the cannon-fodder side characters already. I’ll give props to the series if it manages to have a satisfying ending.
I don’t give a shit about any of the characters anymore. Superman is going to be fine, Ari won’t die since she can’t fully function as a pilot anymore, and I don’t see another “revolution” where people will want Ninaclaire to be killed. Annie is probably not going to be in the story for too long after quitting the military either, they’ll probably kill her off screen or she’ll fall into a deep sleep ;p.
I already predicted that Superman wouldn’t fight back last week. He had to kneel before Zod. Zod’s mother was a sex worker to put food on the grass, but I didn’t care. I’m glad it happened Zod, I’m glad it happened. Superman can’t be the only one who lost his parents, there had to be justice!
Let the downvotes begin!
I’m going to be a contrarian and give you an upvote simply because you have the guts to say what’s on your mind even if I don’t agree with you.
You’re right about the gender inequality, especially in its own setting. This show could take an example of Attack on Titan where male and female soldiers are portrayed equally in strength.
The thing that actually lost me wasn’t the sexism, but the pacifistic nature of most of the trainees. I really think these cowardly deserters have chosen the wrong career. All they want to do is hang around, flirt with each other, soar through the sky for fun and eat supposedly delicious ramen all day i.e. living a peaceful life. I hardly sense any fighting spirit, a competitive desire to win battles or the responsibility to put your life on the line for the sake of your affiliations (except for Mitsuo). Aside from their plot armor and perfect accuracy with a rifle, these kids with their weak beta mentality simply aren’t suited for war. Also on this part, the show could take an example of AoT.
Let’s be clear here. The whole conflict is extremely gray. I for one do not know who’s right or wrong here. It could be the Sky clan attack Isla because Isla attack them- that would make Isla the bad guy. Or it could be the opposite- we are not sure. When it is this vague could you really blame them? Why fight for a cause you don’t know of for reason you don’t understand. A king may move his men but your soul is yours along. I think a man should think what he should do and then act – not blindly do whatever it is you’re told.
“Promise you’ll return! If you die, I will never forgive you!” – Sharon
Dammit woman, you might as well be painting a big red target on his giant forehead!
While watching this episode, I noticed something; I started riffing the whole thing. That’s a bad sign, because it means I’ve stopped being invested in the characters and the story and I can’t take it seriously anymore. And considering its wealth of cliché’s that are completely played straight (like the example up above), the antiquated gender politics (I agree with Enzo, it was a bit silly how that popped up all of sudden) and the overindulgence in fleshing out cannon fodder while our mains are still underdeveloped, it’s not hard to see why. Basically, this show has lost me.
I fear for its ending too, because I doubt they can pull off much of a resolution out of these two episodes. Unless they’re going for a kill ’em all-ending, in which case at least the sadist in me can get some jollies out of it.
a really mixed episode for me.
The gender thing was kinda weird because as noted before they get the same training… :/
Igancio’s past feels forced for me. hard to give a dam about him. And it doesn’t hold up for the characters that where fleshed out before.
i think this story is going to crash and burn but i want to enjoy the trainwreck that has a big chance to happen.
Eh. In real life, this same shit would probably happen. Just because the candidates go through the same training does not mean that the rest of the world is even slightly like the modern world. In fact, judging by the technology, they should probably have a ww1/ww2 esque society as well, or something completely foreign (up to the author). The concept of men going off to die (that is sexism too, no?) while “women and children” stay behind has been around for basically all of human history and remains especially true in Japanese culture.
This was just one of those situations that you can chalk up to different cultures, really.
In this show’s defense, you’d assume it’s based off of most war stories. Most war stories are told from the male’s perspective, as throughout history; males have been the ones most known to go off to die in battle. Most “love stories” involving war end in either one of two ways A. The guy comes back alive to the woman he loves or B. The guy dies in battle and doesn’t come back. I’m thinking this is a mixture of both trying hard to be oldschool, and the whole “It’s Japan, most of their stories are so male oriented that they’re essentially sexist.” admittedly, I do agree with you that this was an utterly idiotic way of executing it.
Could at least one of the girls NOT have been in love? What cues were there that Noriaki and Nanako were in love? They’re both short, have similar color hair, their names start with N and they’re both usually cowards? Yeah, the amount of relationship development there could probably span less than a paragraph.
I don’t see it so much as being sexist (which it is mainly out of the whole generic war story stuff that it probably is) as it is idiotic storytelling on their part. I love this show, but it has some things to answer for itself. Not to mention, they’re not just women; they’re military trained women, you’d expect them to be kicking nuts left and right but sobbing? This is really more of a really broad plot hole that apparently they didn’t feel like doing anything with.
To add to this though, I found another part of this episode even more irritating. The fact that Kal-el is supposed to “get up off his ass and do something” as if any of it is his fault, when he’s pretty much the one who’s had the worst hand dealt out of anyone. I wouldn’t be surprised, or blame him if he hated Claire and still wanted her dead. Ariel is quitting the flight school? What does that have to do with him? He saw almost all of his friends die, his comfort bubble was just destroyed and the only person who gave him any real solace for the future is the person responsible for the deaths of his parents? He’s the one who deserves to be beaten up, totally.
I’m really annoyed with everyone who is hating on this episode because of “gender roles”.
Yeah i’m just about done with this series. The characters are EXTREMELY undeveloped to the point that killing actually doesn’t make any sense to me. At this point i’ve given up hope on this show being entertaining or compelling in any sort of way because the execution on everything has just been so horrible. It doesn’t help that this show might easily have the worst production values of any other show this season. Seriously did anyone else see that scene Igancio shot at a plane but wasn’t even facing in the same direction? Who the hell thought that was ok?
I’m also not ok with putting women in the backseat of the action like this. Maybe this kind of cheesy melodrama worked back in the day but not anymore. Just as we got sick of seeing woman being put in damsel in distress roles it’s not entertaining to see them reduced to just waiting for their lovers to come back from a suicide mission. It’s such a shame as i had high hopes for this series when it first started.
even more grating was the last parts where whenever they enter the clouds, you got one scene with gray backdrops then blue the next. seriously, a little more consistency is needed here.
I’m glad I’m not the only one. It’s been a patchy week in anime. This week’s Toaru Hikuushi and Golden time (which I stopped halfway through) was the low point.
Getting a bit tired of the death flags. All that flag waving is like watching War and Peace performed through the medium of semaphore.
On the technical side, the proper weapon for a gunner is a damn Lewis gun not something that looks like a Boys AT rifle. Just wish they could do a bit more research into this kind of thing.
@celebrinen: On the technical side, the proper weapon for a gunner is a damn Lewis gun not something that looks like a Boys AT rifle. Just wish they could do a bit more research into this kind of thing.
Agree, a Lewis Gun or Type 92 machine gun (seems like Isla infantry weaponry is loosely based off IJA/IJN weapons) is the way to go if not actually something like a .50 cal BMG. To me, Ignacio’s weapon looks based upon the IJA Type 97 20mm anti-tank rifle. The Boys AT rifle was bolt action while Ignacio’s was semi-automatic like the Type 97.
Its 2 meters long and weigh 50kg unloaded. http://world.guns.ru/atr/jap/type-97-e.html
@celebrinen: Yeah, I know which is why I said “based upon” rather than “it is a” – just like the fighters “kind of look like an xyz”. The anime already took liberties elsewhere so why not here as well with weight and length? I agree it does bear some similarity to the bolt-action Boys AT Rifle, but overall IMO it looks more like the semi-auto Type 97 AT rifle.
Correct/amendment to my above comment. The Type 97 AT Rifle is listed as full auto in your link. Wiki also has it as “automatic”, but with a 12 round/min rate of fire (1 round every five seconds). O.o That’s one damn slow rate of fire for an auto-cannon if correct. Also only a 7 round magazine so not sure what the purpose is in having full auto-fire capability.
At any rate, I guess posting that it was “semi-automatic” is incorrect.
Ignacio’s cannon (no innuendo intended) could also be based on, or reminiscent of a Lahti L-39. (Compare to this screencap.)
@Incognito: Nice catch. You might be right about that. It does look pretty similar, especially the barrel.
It’d be better if they gave Iggy twin Lewis guns or Vickers Ks on a ring mount but knowing this show they would have him dual-wielding them.
Honestly I’ve been enjoying the show so far and I do agree at those points, I really do hope things turn out for the better. It was the same for Golden Time too, I almost went “..what in the hell just happened?” at the end lol. No matter how bad it gets I usually stay with a series until the end because you never know.
I also usually stay with a series no matter how bad it goes (heck, i survived valvrave’s horrendous second season, and i regret it). but i am at my limits with both this and Golden Time (that one just totally went all soap opera).
I´m on the same boat Jason-san, once I start a series, manga or light novel I go all the way to the end no matter what, thank God this series is really good, this and Strike the Blood are my favorites to watch every week.
I never understood why they used bolt action rifles against fighter planes…
Because they have no other weapons I’m guessing.
Speaking of gender roles – most of the cadets who ran away were male.
However, the bigger problem is that the whole setting where you have a society where they have nobles and commoners, similar to late 19th century – and at the same time relative equiality
between the sexes, basically we have something equivalent to late 19th century europe where you throw in a modern Japanese high school and make it a fighter pilot school. Just does not mesh together.
In the Princess and the Pilot novel the Levamme society was nasty in-your-face classist, racist _and_ sexist which was expected and realistic. No idea how the Toaru Hikuushi novels are and whether the author does a believable job when describing Ballesteros society.
I do agree that from a Doylist perspective, the whole sequence was written to have the males be the only ones to fly out. However, it also mostly fits in-setting with the characters. In context – Ariel is wounded and unfit to fly; Chiharu is traumatized and suffering from survivor’s guilt; Nanako is and always has been a scared little girl. Noriaki has guilt issues from Mitsuo; Karl is the main character and just got guilt tripped by Ignacio to boot. The only characters who you can say arguably weren’t consistent were Sharon and Benji – Benji, being a coward who tries to hide it, you might have expected to run for the shelter, whereas the logical and rational Sharon could easily go either way. Conveniently, both of these characters were given attention by the writer. Whether one finds that scene convincing or not is personal preference. I personally thought it was kind of half-and-half.
The fact is, this show undeniably has some issues. The magic rifles. The often clumsy stopping points, although I half suspect this has to do with the novel not having convenient stopping points. But bringing in dissatisfaction with gender issues into a WW1/2-ish setting that’s already been shown to have a predominantly male military is just more distraction from what’s good about the show, in my opinion.
Also, just for the record – saying ‘you don’t mean to turn this into a full on gender roles’ post, and then turning around and doing exactly that… well.
is it wrong that i really still want a happy ending for claire and karl? i had to endure all that tragic backstory AND these truly unbearable holes in the logic of the story JUST so claire and karl don’t have a happy ending? if that goes down, i’m gonna be super pissed…………
When will Tom Cruise swoop in with his F-14 and save the day?
It’s not wrong for you to want a happy ending.
Is it wrong for me to hope the majority of them survive but that Karl and Claire never get together?
Side note, anyone else think she lost her wind ability due to her realizing ‘her sins’.
You do realize there are also other engagements going on at the same time? What good would the spotter do if Luna Balco simply gets bombed to smithereens by enemy fighters and bombers?
I swear to god, some of you doesn’t bother to read what I actually wrote. Please point out where I said unlawful order must be followed.
No you can’t, because there is nothing unlawful about a fking escort mission.
As their immediate commander had resigned her commission, she was no longer part of their chain of command.
No, but they do have the right to order you to a mission where you may very well not come back alive. And do please point out where someone received the MOH for desertion, I will wait.
Here’s a hint, “Personal acts of Valor above and beyond the Call of Duty” does not apply to acts of desertion to save your own hide.
The LN goes into more detail, some of which they may explain in the next episode. But really, the spotter plane is exactly what’s needed to counter smokes and cloud cover, which renders their rangefinder (yes, they do have them) ineffective.
Yes, I do know there are other engagements going on. You do know that Luna Balco has AA defensive capabilities? You’ve contended that without the spotter plane they are unable to attack and will be destroyed by the Sky Clans fortress so you approve of tactics that are practically worthless in defending the spotter plane?
I never claimed that you said an unlawful order must be followed. I merely pointed out an extreme case.
Since when did when did saying you’re resigning relieve someone of duty? Your in the military till you’re relieved of duty and your resignation is accepted. Or did they change that?
Who said anything about getting a medal for desertion? We still disagree on whether they are deserting or following an order by their immediate superior. Yes they do have a right to order you into a situation where you might not come back, but they don’t have a right to order you to commit suicide.
And has been pointed out before to me, this is anime. You seem perfectly happy ignoring logic when it comes to technical issues, but seem to feel the UCMJ applies to an anime.
You also realize that AA guns are limited in their capability right? if not, feel free to ask the multitudes of ships sunk in WW2 by bombers how well their AA guns worked.
In that case, please refrain from the use of strawman in the future.
No it doesn’t, not until after the court martial. However you also don’t continue following the order of an officer who openly declared desertion, unless you feel like joining them in said court martial.
Nevermind that it was a direct order from higher ranked officer, desertion is never a lawful order, one cannot legally follow it. You’re literally saying that it’s ok to ignore a deployment order because your platoon leader said so. Feel free to try to make that fly in your court martial.
Was the order to the cadets “Take your weapons and shoot yourself in the head”?
Uh, no.
I actually have no issue with how everything is portrayed in the anime whatsoever, this is first and foremost a character drama with a flavor of WW1/2 style battle. What I DO have a problem with however, is people cherry-picking what to bash. Bashing the commander’s orders because of its tactical flaws and then give free-passes to the trainer’s equally atrocious decisions is hypocritical.
@Mike
Link failure see below
@Mike: “You also realize that AA guns are limited in their capability right? if not, feel free to ask the multitudes of ships sunk in WW2 by bombers how well their AA guns worked.
No need to ask, fully aware. Did you know that the Bofors 40mm AA cannon significantly improved AA capability for USN ships during WWII? Just because everyone is not current or ex-military (I’m guessing you’re USMC), does not mean that we are all “civilian minded” idiots who are unable to understand military doctrine, tactics or weaponry.
I try this one more time. IMO the Admirals’ order is refutable because if the trainees are going to sacrifice their lives, then it should be doing something that might actually make a meaningful difference in the battle’s outcome. Its the same thing as my “bonzai” charge without covering fire vs. covering fire/flanking maneuver against entrenched, interlocking fire MG positions. In other words, more than one option exist to accomplish the mission for the same situation, and one is a hell of a lot better than the other unless you are truly suicidal. Why should one comply with the order to go with the much less effective, suicidal option?
I GET the “CAP”/escort concept, but as I noted above, other than Ignacio, having the trainees perform that mission given their proficiency and armament is pointless. If you disagree with that assessment, then fine. “Agree to disagree”.
–What I DO have a problem with however, is people cherry-picking what to bash. Bashing the commander’s orders because of its tactical flaws and then give free-passes to the trainer’s equally atrocious decisions is hypocritical.”
You accuse us of hypocrisy, yet now you counter Bear’s AA alternative example with a “limited effectiveness” argument when before you argued that effectiveness of the escort mission was irrelevant because anything, no matter how unlikely to succeed, was better than “zero”? Isn’t that a bit hypocritical, or are you now suggesting that AA effectiveness is literally zero?
Not only that, you criticize us as being hypocritical for backing the trainees decision while criticizing the Admirals order (isn’t that actually consistent?), while you give a free pass on the Admiral’s “tactical flaws” (as you put it), yet lambast the trainees’ decision. Isn’t that just as “hypocritical” under your definition? Are you not “cherry picking” as well?
Is your honest opinion that the Admiral’s strategy and tactic have been perfectly fine so far – in no way has his decisions been close to incompetent whatsoever, and he bears no responsibility at all for the lives placed under his command? BTW, I’m NOT talking about ordering troops into potentially deadly combat situations in general. That’s practically every mission during war.
Clearly at this point we are not going to come to any agreement, but I honestly wonder if there is no order the Admiral could give in which you do not think the trainees may legitimately refuse. What if the trainees were ordered to be Kamikaze pilots? Is that fine? What if they were ordered to crash their plane into a Sky Clan fighter once they run out of ammunition? Is that OK? Where’s the limit for you on this? IS there a limit?
@daikama
Sigh, the point is that AA guns have never been a substitute for fighter escorts, and that remains true today. And since you’re obviously such an expert on Luna Balco’s AA armament, maybe you can educate the rest of us on its capability.
Yet more strawman from you. Please point out where I said or even remotely implied civilians are “idiots”.
Fact remains that few who have never served or stepped into a battlefield can really comprehend what it’s like or how we feel, and I’ve seen nothing in these posts that indicates otherwise.
Sure, but did the instructors and the trainees (save for 4) opt for any other options? No. Their thought process went like this:
Sonia – I don’t want to see any more of my students die, the end.
Trainees – Well, if we run away… we’ll at least live a little longer.
It was not a matter of whether they were going to make any difference, that never entered their mind. The only consideration was whether they were going to live, nothing else mattered.
Again, just so you don’t miss it, I do not have a problem with the cadets acting this way in the story, because that’s well within their character and role in the story. What I do have a problem with is people trying to justify it as a legitimate response even for actual soldiers.
What is this I don’t even.
Bear implied that Luna Balco doesn’t need fighter escorts because it has AA guns, I merely pointed out the flaws in that assumption.
It’s a pickle because Isla is at a numerical disadvantage. But you should know that there are priorities when it comes to mission objectives, even when they’re all critical. Luna Balco is without question the most important asset to protect, all the spotter planes in the world won’t do you any good when there are nothing left to use it.
It’s not consistent because you’re judging the admiral’s order based on its military competency, but not applying that same level of scrutiny to the instructors/trainees.
Not sure where you got that impression from. I can write a multi-page essay tearing apart the holes in the Admiral’s decisions if I cared to. Nor am I actually lambasting the trainees, I’m pretty sure I’ve said I’m ok with how they’re portrayed in the show, what I’ve lambasted are commenters like you who are justifying desertion as an acceptable conduct.
I suggest you read what I actually wrote, instead of what you think I wrote. TBH I’m not sure you really understand what I’ve been trying to say.
I’ll close this out with this, if the people in the show were replaced with actual Marines – let’s say a fireteam is tasked with reaching high ground occupied by the enemy in order to call in artillery fire to stave off an all-out-assault by superior enemy forces. Retreat is not an option, defeat means the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians. The Marines are outmanned and outgunned, and the only men that can be spared to go with the spotter team are a small squad of privates fresh out of bootcamp, and chances are good they won’t survive – but without the artillery fire everyone’s fate is sealed.
I do not know any Marine who would’ve said no, much less run away and hide in a hole while leaving their fellow Marines to die.
I would also like to add, even if things would’ve turned out exactly like Sonia said, where the trainees would’ve only been able to buy a few extra minutes, sometimes those few extra minutes may be what you need, such as in the scenario I wrote above.
Ouch, that’s REALLY sexist. Good thing I didn’t start watching this or else I’ll get irritated.
And feel free to ask the number of bombers destroyed by flack in WW2 as to how effective it was. Oh, and no American BB’s and only one cruiser was sunk by aircraft in WW2, and I think Luna Balco rates as a BB.
Do you realize how limited the capabilities of aircraft armed with bolt action rifles are in air to air combat? AA is a tad more effective.
Resigning is not desertion and following an order to stand down and take cover is following a direct order by a superior who has taken responsibility. Points we’ll never agree on it seems.
So a squad of soldiers refusing to charge a tank over open ground armed only with pistols would be charged with cowardice and refusing to obey an order? That’s what that commander is asking them to do with their pop guns going up against MG and cannon armed fighters. All your doing is demanding someone commit suicide by letting someone else pull the trigger (similar to suicide by cop). There comes a point where rational people will finally balk at insane orders whether it’s legal or not.
The more major USN losses in WW2 by aircraft:
Battleships: Arizona, Oklahoma
Carriers: Hornet, Lexington, Princeton, Yorktown was crippled by aircraft and then sunk by submarine
Escort carriers: Bismarck Sea, Ommaney Bay, St. Lo
Hvy. Cruisers: Chicago
In addition 28 destroyers were also sunk by aerial attack.
Unfortunately those AA emplacement cannot protect the spotters, and along with escort planes are required to protect Luna Balco, which is even more important than the spotter planes.
One cannot resign without permission, doing so is the very definition of desertion.
And how many did Ariel and Fausto take down with said pop gun (and seriously, why don’t they grab some larger caliber weapon? They are obviously have them)? Nobody is saying that they are likely to survive the engagement, but they are capable of mounting some measure of resistance, far more than charging a tank with a pistol.
This may come as a surprise to you, but the concept of ordering a unit to its certain doom in order to protect the greater war effort is neither new nor unprecedented.
Nevada, California, Arizona and Oklahoma were sunk at Pearl by a surprise attack. Almost no AA was available or used.
The 28 destroyers did not have the massive AA available to the heavier ships. They’re stationed at the periphery of the task force and less well protected, as well as not being able to sustain the same level of damage.
Yorktown, Lexington and Hornet were sunk in 1942 before heavy AA was used. Chicago was sunk in early 1943 by aerial torpedoes. Escort carriers were neither well armed nor armored, so like destroyers, not able to sustain damage and all the ones you listed were sunk by kamikaze. So the only major ships that were lost when massive AA was available was Princeton (light carrier) 1944. No heavily AA armed ships were lost to aircraft even under heavy kamikaze attack.
I cannot understand Ignacio, really.
Does he hate Karl? Because I can’t see him doing the things he does if he does hate him, he’s acting more like an elder brother.