Fate/Apocrypha / First Impressions

「再会と別離」 (Saikai to Betsuri)
“Reunion and Farewell”

Holy cow so many things happened in this episode.

General Impressions

Continuing on from my excerpt, I don’t think we’ve ever had so many different topics tackled in a single episode. Besides three separate fights all coming to a close and losing three servants, we even had the story literally close out this mini battle arc as Jeanne and Sieg started to speed toward Shakespeare.

Before leaping into that though, let’s break down each fight of this week’s fights. Starting with the shortest since it never actually came to an official close, I was rather disappointed (at least at the time) with Jeanne and Atalanta’s fight. Both in the sense of what the fight was about as well as the animation style that the episode decided to use for it. Don’t get me wrong, I can get behind that sloppy and crazy kind of look when there’s an intense action scene going on. But when the show has shown us that it can pump out some pretty decent fighting scenes, the least it could do for a somewhat important character’s final fight is make it look pretty. Slight animation gripes aside, let’s talk about Atalanta’s mental break for a second here.

As I said earlier, I was a little disappointed that Atalanta couldn’t get past the fact that Jeanne had “abandoned” those forsaken children in Jack’s Noble Phantasm. Not only were those children whose lives had long passed, but I think anyone with any understanding of the real world can comprehend that it’s nearly impossible to save everyone (this is like, a super important point of the original Fate series with Emiya and Shirou!). However, after Atalanta was brought down by Achilles, I had this moment of inspiration that helped me get behind Atalanta’s train of thought. As a Heroic Spirit that’s been given another chance to exist in the present, who’s to say you can’t just chuck logic out of the window in order to try and attain your goals now that you’ve been given a second chance at life? With a literal opportunity of a lifetime, it’s not too difficult to see why someone as passionate as Atalanta would get so focused on her one single goal and somewhere along the line start focusing on the finer details instead of looking at the whole picture. That said, even with this epitome dawning upon me as I watched Atalanta disappear in Achilles’ arms, I’m still not sure if I truly accept the way she behaved throughout the past few episodes. Luckily, Achilles managed to be a true hero and snapped her out of it before she let that Noble Phantasm of hers completely engulf her “soul”. So if anything, if this was supposed to be a play at irony with teammates taking themselves out, I guess it could work.

Moving on from those two fights, let’s talk about Karna for a second. As someone who has been pretty one dimensional since we first met him, I was so impressed to see him reveal his true personality right at the end. As the Hero of Charity, I was strangely happy when I realized that he was just an honorable fighter who wanted to maintain a sense of pride as this wacky Greater Holy Grail War played out. Behooved to serve his Master because of obligation, but never forgetting those who providing for him in the past, I think I was downright disappointed to see such a standup guy leave the show.

God, there’s still so much more to talk about but let’s close things out before this post gets any longer. At this point, it looks like we’ve transitioned into the next arc where it looks like all hell is about to break loose. With each side low on servants and Shirou doing who knows what inside of the Greater Holy Grail, I can’t imagine things slowing down at all until the end. If there was one question I’d like answered though, didn’t Sieg end up using all of his Command Spells during his fight with Karna? I believe he had three at most and he ended up transforming into Siegfried twice as well as empowering his final attack with one right before Astolfo leapt in. Alas, I’m sure we’ll get an answer within the next few episodes. In any case, I’ll catch you guys then. See you next week!

218 Comments

    2. While I know the anime was disliked by many, due to how it didn’t faithfully follow the light novel, I can agree that this episode was a master piece. Little Sad that Achilles and Atalanta didn’t kiss before dying. Still didn’t understand why Achilles wanted to stop Atalanta, it would have been more Ideal for Ruler to be annihilated by Atalanta then Achilles can stop Atalanta; hard for the Red Faction since they lost Servants like that.

      https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2022%20-%20Large%2034.jpg
      Leave it to Apollo and Artemis to get their chance to shoot and hit Achilles; from what I can understand, while Atalanta doesn’t have any divinity, that is capable of hurting Achilles, she can “ask” two fully divine gods to shoot her targets, thus is the reason why Achilles was harmed. Anyway, I still like this episode even if, from what I heard, didn’t follow the light novel. We get to see all of Atalanta’s abilities get Super Boosted when she used her Demonic Noble Phantasm. In addition, we get to see more romance moment with Achilles and Atalanta. I am at least curious if it was feasible for Atalanta to kiss Achilles; from my view, Achilles was able to win Atalanta’s heart to some degree.

      https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2022%20-%20Large%2004.jpg
      How did this kid “teleport” everyone? He had a spell like that? Meh.

      Anyway, so it is Ruler (jeanne d’arc) vs William Shakespeare. Wow, would like to see what Shakespeare can do to jeanne, she is technically the sword enemy of Shakespeare’s homeland. But seriously, a Caster vs a Ruler that can nullify all magic?

      L002
      Reply

      1. Achilles and Atalanta kissing would be dumber than the “romance” between Sieg and Jeanne. Atalanta was raised as a beast in the forest, which is why she has no concept of romantic love. Achilles was drawn to her as heroes of the same land, but ultimately he saw her as a comrade. Even the last moment they shared would be best considered camaraderie.

        Achilles could be injured because Chiron shot his heel, depriving him of his immortality. Normally the only people capable of damaging Achilles would be Divine Servants or Anti-Divine attacks.

        Fabuzer
        Reply

      3. Achilles grew up hearing stories from his dad Peleus about Peleus’s adventures with the Argonauts, featuring Atalanta. So she’s one of his childhood idols and he deeply respects her.

        Bob
        Reply

      8. The wife part may be debatable since she tends to view life as a wild animal might and not all of them tend to value their partners however you can be absolutely 100% positive that Astolfo would be an excellent mother.

        rainbowcourage
        Reply

  2. Official relationship chart for Fate/Apocrypha
    https://i.imgur.com/5iZ3mX8.jpg

    Sieg ↔ Astolfo “Trust and mutual dependence.”
    Sieg ← Astolfo “Willing to help him out whenever he needs” & “Romantic love ♥”
    Sieg → Jeanne “Love…?”
    Sieg ← Jeanne “Pledge to protect” & “Romantic love ♥.”
    Sieg ← Siegfried “Sacrifices itself to save the boy.”
    Sieg ↔ Shirou “Enemies.”
    Sieg ← Celenike “Jealousy, envy and hatred.”
    Sieg ← Avicebron “Wanting to use him as his Golem’s ‘core’.”
    Astolfo ← Celenike “Please pardon me.”
    Astolfo ← Celenike “Obsessive–compulsive disorder.”
    Jeanne → Red and black faction “Supervisor”.
    Spartacus → Avicebron “Captured by.”
    Atalanta → Achilles “Don’t call me ‘Big Sister’.”
    Achilles → Atalanta “Likes to call her Big Sister.”
    Achilles ↔ Chiron “Has a connection in their past.”
    Siegfried → Gordes “Obeys.”
    Gordes → Siegfried = “Distrust.”
    Mordred ↔ Kairi “Trust & mutual dependence.”
    Mordred → Semiramis “Distrust.”
    Kairi → Shirou “Distrust.”
    Shakespeare “Forever alone.”
    Shirou ↔ Semiramis “Mutual cooperation.”
    Karna → Siegfried “wanting/swearing to battle him again.”
    Avicebron → Roche “Sees him as a student.”
    Roche → Avicebron “Respect.”

    ultimatemegax
    Reply

    1. I think it´s safe to say Sieg is now a godslayer, after all Karna became a god after his death because his father the sun god Surya wanted to honor him as the great heroe he was, even more because the horrible life he endured without breaking.

      haseo0408
      Reply

      1. Servants are far, far weaker from their Heroic Spirit selves. Servants are just copies of the original. Moreover, the Karna summoned here isn’t fully divine and isn’t a Divine Spirit.

        As awesome as this episode was, Sieg only won because somehow circumstances were in his favour. Karna didn’t need to use Vasavi Shakti and sacrifice his armor, he could have easily won by spamming Brahmastra (eye laser), he just wanted to fight with all his strength. The only reason he wasn’t annihilated was due to Akhilleus Kosmos. Moreover, how the hell could Sieg activate Balmung repeatedly? It makes no sense at all.

        Fabuzer
        Reply

    2. @Fabuzer
      – Literally fucking invincible with Armor
      – His NP is the best and most powerful weapon out there, but loses his armor once he uses it.
      – Instead of just keep fighting an endurance battle, he goes for the kill.
      – Pulls out the lance then jobs like a bitch.
      What a Trifa ripoff.

      Dorcas_Aurelia
      Reply

  4. If you think about it, Atalanta is very similar to Shirou Emiya after he got his second chance at life in the Fate and UBW storylines. She’s dedicated to saving any and every child she can, when you know that’s entirely impossible for it to be done. Basically like how Shirou wants to save everyone but you know he can’t.

    Man, Archers really get the short sticks in… Oh who am I kidding. All of Nasu’s Heroes get the short end of the stick. Except Kalied’s Illya, and even then, I’m expecting something terrible to happen to her.

    Dorian S.
    Reply

      1. Atalanta went insane due to Jack’s Noble Phantasm. She was aware of it and could have easily dispelled it by asking Amakusa or Semiramis, but she didn’t want to rely on their help. Moreover, she even believed that she had to be punished for being unable to save the children.

        Also, while superficially similar, Shirou and Atalanta are quite different. Shirou is aware that saving everyone is impossible (he even said so in the first episode, which somehow people always miss) but doesn’t care since he has nothing else inside him. Atalanta, like Kiritsugu, genuinely believed in an impossible dream and foolishly pursued it until she self-destructed.

        Fabuzer
        Reply

      2. You know that in her myth she agreed to marry the person who beat her in a race, right? Her husband ended up winning the race by dropping several golden apples which stopped Atalanta as she picked them to eat.

        Voradors
        Reply

      3. So she’s used goods? Fucking slut.
        Why the fuck does she portray herself as a maiden that doesn’t like being touched if she already fucked a guy?

        I’m going to burn my Atalanta’s right now

        ScarredSwordHeart
        Reply

      4. It is the result of TM cherry picking traits of her from all legends of her in order to please waifufags like you.

        Burning her card just because she is “used good” is still retarded though.

        casanova
        Reply

      5. Because it was basically rape.

        She was thrown in the gutter by her father, goddess picked her up and took care of her to some extent.
        That is why she was more animal than man, she vowed to stay virgin and take care of all the kids as they are innocent.
        Father when she turned out to be a beauty came back to her to use her as a political tool in marriage.
        She did not want to, so she said beat me in a race and I will marry you.
        She was confident that no one was able to beat her on foot.
        She was stupidly attracted to all and any apple, this was something her father dropped the guy.
        So he got hands on those super rare golden apples and dropped them like everywhere.
        She could not resist and instead of running she picked them up and lost and was thus forced to have sex.

        rainbowcourage
        Reply

      7. Almost. The guy who beat her appealed directly to Aphrodite who didnt like the purity vow that Atalanta made to Artemis and wanted to piss Artemis off by having her devout follower break it
        Aphrodite then gives the guy a fuckload of Golden Apples which are Atalanta’s only real distraction in life.

        Agent355
        Reply

      10. You’re all cucks who like a girl who willingly fucked another man. Say all you want but at least other heroes don’t go around saying “HURR DURR IM A PURE VIRGIN”, she’s a used cumdump rag.

        Kenshin_Himura93
        Reply

      12. The golden apples were god-level magic that forced Atalanta to chase them. Just another Greek god messing with someone. Then Atlanta was bound to function as a wife by her vows and her father.

        The idea that virginity is the only value of women because women are property is an old horrible idea. Especially as men are not condemned by having many lovers neather should women be. In a healthy society, without sexually transmitted illness, both sexes have sex in whatever way that pleases them and the only deviants are those who resist having sex dispite wanting too. With STD around, condom use and limited partnerships are a good idea but this a health not moral issue.

        Anyone who calls a woman ruined or a slut or similar term is someone who hates women and oppresses them.

        RedRocket
        Reply

    2. – Atalanta in Greek mythology has kid and gets turned into lion for fucking her husband in a

      – Atalanta in FGO is a waifu pandering character who gets embarrassed if her master even touches her

      What the fuck is this revision?

      darkchibi07
      Reply

      2. There’s also some stuff about her regretting the way she acted in Apocrypha too in FGO. But its lost under the waifupandering. Just like the other decent bits included in Interludes or small situations in events or story.

        TheVoid
        Reply

      4. Depends on where in her story you get her. If you get her from before marriage she going to resist sex. Even later in a new life, she might try to return to her original vows. Actually happens in real life. Women on religious basis swearing chastity becoming nuns even after having children. Her sex in the temple was forced by a god. The Greek gods loved to punk people by using mind control to make them break some others god’s rule so that God would punish them.

        RedRocket
        Reply

      1. Stop being autistic. She says she has taken a vow and thats it. Even in life she never willingly broke the vow and was forced to marry literally due to the Gods fucking her life up.

        ookamigirl
        Reply

      5. She is still following it and in life she never willingly broke it. A literal goddess intervened in the footrace and forced her into marriage. She had no choice in that matter. Why are you so stupid?

        ookamigirl
        Reply

      6. A vow of chastity means you don’t ever break it. The hymen breaking means you’re no longer a virgin. You can’t go back and undo it. What’s so fucking hard to understand about this, Cuck-kun?

        One-Eye
        Reply

    1. According with some information I found the Brahmastra Kundala Karna fired at middle of the battle has the power of a modern nuke and his final Noble Phantasm Vasavi Shakti is so much more powerful that nukes look like firecrackers in comparation and after seeing this episode I agree completely, that thing oblivarated the entire world created by Achilleus Kosmos and that was a shield forged and enchanted by Ephestus himself!.

      haseo0408
      Reply

      6. The thing is most EX NP’s are only EX because of some weird concept behind it. Example, EA is pure fire power is only slightly better than Excalibur, but because of it’s unique properties it’s got a much higher output and ranks at EX.
        This thing is straight up EX with nothing but pure firepower, no strings or concepts involved. The only thing I can think that competes with it is Salmonis and Excalibur(Proto) since those are the only other NP’s that have the same output without any concepts attached. with Karna’s NP being a planet buster, Salmonis being a planet buster and Excalibur proto edging in just for being an EX thing with no concepts so it has to be close to Vasavi atleast.
        In order it be Salomnis>Vasavi>EXcalibur(Proto). We don’t have any other planet busting NP’s I can think of at the moment, but I have the nagging feeling there are 1 or 2 from CCC.

        Gilgamesh
        Reply

      7. To date it’s one of the only real EX ranked NP that’s ranked as such purely because of raw firepower with no weird effect like Ea’s space-time fucking or Avalon’s perfect dimensional shift.
        The other one I can think of off the top of my head is Arthur’s Excalibur.

        Scaramanga
        Reply

      9. @Gilgamesh
        Vasavi isn’t a planet buster, stop giving Karnafags a bad name.
        No NP can be a planet buster, even if it had the firepower for it, it just flat out can’t destroy the planet at all because that’s how Alaya and Servants work.
        What it is is an insanely powerful EX ranked beam that will probably kill the shit out of you unless you happen to be a Beast or something if it hits you at full power. It’s not a planet buster.

        @SereneChaos
        No

        infiltration.cru
        Reply

      10. >EA is pure fire power is only slightly better than Excalibur,
        He never even used Ea’s secret form that he showed off in CCC and Ataraxia against Saber, the version that was slightly above Excalibur was still him holding back. Excalibur got buffed a thousand more times, Ea had to keep up, so the super secret world breaker mode is the mode that’s above super secret version of Excalibur. Since those two were called the top NPs or right above each other, any time one gets buffed the other gets buffed.
        but I have the nagging feeling there are 1 or 2 from CCC.
        BB’s NP is basically the authority of all gods, the life mother that is the creation of the planet, and the authority of the mooncell combined into an unrankable NP that just deletes the target from reality without question.

        Kiara’s NP is elder god NP that’s also kinda above the planet tier.
        There are still NPs you’re forgetting outside of those ones though. Virgin Razor Palladion, the blade of Athena that bypasses all walls or whatever, was able to destroy a Beast. Rhongomyriado the spear that ends the world on the same level as the holy spear Longius. Trisula Shakti the spear of Shiva that is said to be unbeatable by anything, which he gave to his wife temporarily. There’s a dozen other difficult ones.

        Bango
        Reply

      11. Strongerest NPs

        Als Salomonis
        Lord Camelot
        Achilles Cosmos
        Amita Amitābha
        Heaven’s Hole
        C.C.C
        Virgin Razor Palladion
        Ea
        EXcalibur
        Trishula Shakti
        Vasavi Shakti
        Qliphoth Rhizome
        Rhongomyniad

        I forget the exact order

        leatherhead
        Reply

      12. It’s planet buster in attack potency.
        It cant actually destroy a planet, I know that no NP can. But in attack potency (I.E it can destroy something tough enough that survived an explotion strong enough to wipe out a city, meaning it’s a “city level attack” even if it can’t actually destroy a city) it’s probably planetery since it destroyed Kosmos, which has the durability of a planet. does that make sense?
        Its a power scaling term, I know because of how Alaya and the throne works you can’t REALLY destroy the world.

        An example of something with a super high attack potency but a small scale would be something like Tsbuame gaeshi, its 3 sword slashes but it’s strong enough to kill saber even though she’s survived a mountain-level attack from Herc.

        CYNRHEL
        Reply

      13. Anti-world isn’t the only statement of power, an anti-unit NP can be stronger than an Anti-World one just by being more focused. We’ve seen this kinda thing before. CCC does show that Ea’s anti-world mode is far stronger than the normal blast of energy from Ea, its not just him meaninglessly stripping away the lies from the world. Ea when it rips away the face of the planet is far stronger.
        Saying basically “Those other NPs probably don’t count” shows ignorance. As already stated Virgin Razor killed an evil of humanity by itself, Rhongo destroyed the world in Camelot, Buddha’s NP is called the ultimate anti-unit NP that humanity cannot overcome or whatever, and etc. Its Karna’s NP that has failed every time he’s used it and hasn’t managed to kill anyone despite people claiming feats for him, not the other way around with everyone else lacking feats and him being Mr.Immortal. Vasavi is basically Gae Bolg, its all talk. Vasavi can’t actually destroy a planet, its not even anti-planet. Its only anti-country. No Vasavi isn’t the guy to beat even if its strong.

        Dessa
        Reply

      14. Illya’s double Kalediostick second magic NP Quintett Fauer drawing it seems by the images the whole power of a huge number of universes is EX rank. It turns a monster size Gilgamesh powered up by absorbing the Greater Grail into mist defeating an EA beam that is powerful enough to cause a universal rift. Illya at the time sporting a large number of energy wings that probably hint at a connection to the root in the same way that Light Hawk Wings in Tenchi Muyo connect to the root. Gilgamesh gives a mixed reaction later in the boy form that survived, he is both amazed that it beat EA but claims in the half mixed way he was incarnated he could only do so much.
        Like almost everything in the Type-Moon works powers and the way things work are always said by a character allowing that character to be wrong either in part or whole on how things work. Many things people think are rules are just the knowledge of a person or an organization and thus always subject to being incorrect. This version of the Unreliable Narrator trope that Type-Moon uses is a very useful technique to keep the writing from being boxed in.
        No matter how powerful you want to say Quintett Fauer is, it is an EX NP and deserves mention with the other EX NP.

        RedRocket
        Reply

      15. Forgot to add that many NP like EA is described in possible power level but rarely if ever does the character in the story actually have the mana supply to use at full power. In EA’s case, it seams Gilgamesh normally only has enough mana to make it roughly Excaliber strength with a few special abilities of its own. And of course, Gilgamesh is an unreliable narrator so actual power it can reach is unknown and might be way less than he claims at least welded by him instead of the creator of the Earth.

        RedRocket
        Reply

  7. Now this is how an epic battle must be! Two heroes giving their best with enough firepower to destroy the planet multiple times, how is the Gardens of Babylon still standing after that apocaliptic showdown!?. The music and animation were incredible during the battle along with clash of the ideals and personalities of the two mighty warriors.

    Karna has proven he´s without a doubt the most powerful Hroe of the Nasuverse, Gilgamesh and Ramses might powerful as hell but they can´t hold a candle to this guy. So badass he even died with a smile standing proud, that´s a first for a Lancer in the Nasuverse!.

    haseo0408
    Reply

    1. The firepower displayed was insane, but they never approached planet-busting levels. Even Ars Almadel Salomonis (a ring of million of light rays, each as powerful as Excalibur), Solomon’s Noble Phantasm and arguably the strongest in terms of raw power, couldn’t blow up Earth.

      And before someone mention it, no, not even Ea. Ea is Anti-World not because it can destroy a planet, but because it warps reality by affecting the World.

      Karna is my favorite Servant, so it irks me to say that Gilgamesh would beat him if he wanted to. However, I feel better knowing that even Gilgamesh respects him immensely. Moreover, Vasavi Shakti and Kavacha&Kundala are not present in Gate of Babylon, which is why Gilgamesh was interested in collecting them.

      Fabuzer
      Reply

      2. This is why I have a huge bias towards Fate. There’s no real way to explain how much of a thrill this gives me and why. It just does. It’s something that just exists with no real means of justifying it or not. It’s just fucking cool.

        Shakti
        Reply

      2. auto-dies

        It doesn’t work like that, it just has enough power to kill even a god.
        A true anti-god NP that has a chance of auto-killing you that’s higher depending on how high divinity you have is Arjuna’s NP.

        Siieregannsu
        Reply

      5. Enkidou would be next to useless against Karna, yes he has highest divinity of the Nasuverse but his most characteristic trait is his willpower, if Heracles could get free from that god slaying chain you bet anything Karna can do the same 1000 times faster.

        haseo0408
        Reply

      6. Gil has a good claim at best overall servant. Illya has a claim at most powerful for a short bit but only in a form that she might not be able to use again. And no way anyone beating Karna in India.

        RedRocket
        Reply

    3. https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2022%20-%20Large%2028.jpg
      https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2022%20-%20Large%2030.jpg
      Saber can also defend against Gilgamesh’s most powerful weapon by far, but that doesn’t put her on his level. It’s not a case of Kosmos = instawin, it’s just that Kosmos happened to be a very good counter to Vasavi. Hell, in the novels it wasn’t even a perfect counter, Astolfo was still injured when it hit, and that was after a CS boosted Balmung that only lost because Sieg didn’t have the willpower to keep going.

      Grecian
      Reply

      1. Avalon is a cheat noble phantasm that may as well make her Gilgamesh-tier. As long as she hasn’t it on, she can avoid just about every noble phantasm and strike with Excalibur in the opening her enemy’s leave. She won’t beat Gil because he’s too versatile but she is definitely a threat to him, so I don’t know where you’re going with this.

        Achilles’ shield can be equipped to his chariot and simulates a combination similar to what Rider and Shirou pulled in NF with Bellephoron and Rho Ahias. If Karna pulled that same VS stunt against Achilles like he did against Sieg, he would have died.

        That’s not to say Achilles is stronger than him, but you don’t need to be stronger to be on the same level.

        Middlesbrough
        Reply

      2. Karna pulled that same VS stunt against Achilles like he did against Sieg, he would have died.
        That would have cost an insane amount of mana though. Between his invincibility, his chariot, and his shield, that’s a B rank NP, an A rank NP, and an A+ rank NP to power all at once. Even then, this assumes that Achilles can force Karna into using it in the first place.

        It doesn’t much matter if he can block Vasavi if Karna could beat him in melee anyway.

        Jeonbuk
        Reply

      3. Yes and that’s why it depends on the master and how long he’d need to keep it up. That said, Karna is hardly in a better spot. Just using mana burst in combination with his armor was something he wanted to avoid as to not drain his master dry. Brahmastra and Vasavi Shatki would be out of the question regularly.
        Take away their big guns and Achilles still has stats on-par or better than Karna’s for being able to push back both Siegfried and Frankenstein simultaneously, whereas Karna was stalemated by the former alone. Karna would win eventually because his defenses work while Achilles’ invincibility doesn’t, however it won’t be a cakewalk. Achilles will just opt for his chariot. and you would think that he’d have the maneuverability and destructive power to overwhelm Karna to the point where melee isn’t going to cut it.
        As far as I can see, a fight between them depends on, “can the master sustain X maneuver without dying”. We don’t know but its not relevant. We know enough to say Achilles and Karna would have a very competitive fight where either losing is very possible, even with Higashide botching the former’s performance.

        Middlesbrough
        Reply

      4. Arturia is definately on and around the same tier as Gil with Avalon.

        You can try to claim that Avalon is hax but so it Gil’s gate spam. In 1 on 1 fighting Saber would kick the shit out of Gil.

        Angra
        Reply

      5. Even with Avalon, Saber was relying on surprise. She surprised Gil by Avaloning away his strongest attack and in the opening he made she Excalibur’d him. If she had used it at all beforehand, if he knew about it, if he knew she had it, he would not have lost that fight. Avalon is a perfect defense but that’s all it is. He could have just spammed GoB at her until her mana ran dry if he’d been prepared for it. If she catches him by surprise she can win, but without that surprise her chances drop drastically.

        Onigawara Rin
        Reply

      6. Gil’s chances basically depend on his pride and how bored he is.
        He could GoB/Ea everything to dust from a distance.
        As far as actual swordsmanship does, he lost to Shirou, so he would have certainly lost to Saber, especially if she had a decent mana supply.

        Angra
        Reply

      7. He lost to Shirou partially thanks to the circumstances. If two people draw their swords to attack, the one to draw first will obviously have the advantage. Because Unlimited Blade Works has a speed advantage over Gate of Babylon, Shirou always drew his weapons first every single time.

        Onigawara Rin
        Reply

      8. And this is why power comparisons are so hard to make.
        No Ea Gil vs full mana Saber.
        Ea Gil vs full mana Avalon Saber.
        Saber vs Redman.
        Rin’s Saber vs Redman.
        These are just some I’d like to know, but if they actually showed up the circumstances would tip the scales.

        Angra
        Reply

      9. Excalibur can’t beat Ea.
        Avalon only works as a trump card. It’s only going to work once.
        Saber wins at close range, but it’s harder for her if Archer’s sniping from a great distance.
        If Archer’s working alone and Saber has Rin’s support, then Saber would probably win.

        Onigawara Rin
        Reply

    4. https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2022%20-%20Large%2007.jpg
      https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2022%20-%20Large%2021.jpg
      https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2022%20-%20Large%2026.jpg
      https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2022%20-%20Large%2028.jpg

      In all seriousness, while fate is certainly shit, them dropping all their seasons budget on the one episode where heroes beat the shit out of each other no holds barred is always always worth watching.

      mira-pyon
      Reply

    1. Karna´s final Noble Phantasm Vasavi Shakti can only be used after he sacrificed his Armor of the Sun Noble Phantasm, he gains the power to destroy worlds and gods alike but it uses an insane amount of magic and it is left very weakened after using it because it chips aways at his life force as well, that´s whay Sieg was able to impale him.

      haseo0408
      Reply

    1. For those who didn’t know, Astolfo could use Akhilleus Kosmos because in his legend he received Noble Phantasms from others while Achilles gave them. It wasn’t a perfect transition, but it was enough.

      In Achilles’ hands, Akhilleus Kosmos could be used offensively. The shield contains a World, and by using that concept, its defensive properties can be turned into an attack to crush the opponent with a World’s weight.

      Akhilleus Kosmos is indeed better than Rho Aias. As it contains a World, only Anti-World Noble Phantasms like Ea can destroy it (not attacks capable of destroying a planet, but attacks that affect the World itself and warp reality).

      By the way, Shirou can’t project it. It’s a Divine Contruct, made by Hephaestus, and that’s Shirou’s limit. Moreover, he is limited to swords and anything that strays too far from that concept is a lot weaker and require much more prana.

      Fabuzer
      Reply

      1. I see. So the reason why Shirou can project Divine Constructs, like Ig-Alima and Sul-sagana, was because they were swords.

        Dumb question, so let’s say Shirou is powered by Illya’s prana supply (which is considered endless), would Shirou at least make a weak version of Akhilleus Kosmos? If Shirou can use a weak Akhilleus Kosmos, especially in an offensive manner, then that would be devastating.

        L002
        Reply

      2. And sorry, another question, so Akhilleus Kosmos’s only weakness is Anti-World Noble Phantasms. Does that mean that the shield can block an Anti-Humanity Noble Phantasm, like Ars Almadel Salomonis, as well as other peculiar Noble Phantasms like Anti-Mountain, Anti-Populace, Anti-Planet, and Anti-Treasure Noble Phantasms?

        L002
        Reply

      3. Replying to my own comment to answer your questions:

        – No, Shirou can’t trace Divine Constructs, that’s it. Those you mentioned were projected by the Shirou from Miyu’s universe; the author also isn’t Nasu, so he took liberties with what Shirou could do. If our Shirou attempted to trace a Divine Construct, he would make a weaker and imperfect version and then die from the strain and prana cost.

        – I don’t think any amount of prana can help him. Even if he didn’t die from the prana cost, it’s a fact that Unlimited Blade Works can’t store Divine Constructs since Shirou can’t understand their composition. UBW can only replicate earthly materials and Divine Contructs are made with special components.

        – Akhilleus Kosmos can block anything apart from Anti-World and Anti-Planet Noble Phantasms. The former would warp reality and rip apart the shield’s world, the latter simply has enough raw power to destroy it. Vasavi Shakti ultimately destroyed the shield’s world for possibly two reasons: Astolfo wasn’t the owner and couldn’t draw out the shield’s true power; Vasavi Shakti is an Anti-Divine Noble Phantasm and since Akhilleus Kosmos is a Divine Construct, it was just bad compatibility.

        Fabuzer
        Reply

      4. I see, thank you Fabuzer. Now I am stumped in what makes Miyu’s Shirou different from a regular Shirou if Miyu’s Shirou “cheated” in some way to make Divine Constructs. The same goes for how Kuro or Illya when either uses Emiya’s powers in order to make Excalibur. It would be funny if Nasu said “You know I mentioned in how Shirou can’t make Divine Constructs, well I lied.”

        L002
        Reply

      5. I would not be surprised, when this Shield has some kind of Meteoroid metal with tiny bit out of this World alloy

        Also, did Shirou not used some sort of Shield in UBW? Some kind of a rose? or i are my memory playing tricks with me?

        Worldwidedepp
        Reply

      6. A perfect example of Anti-World Noble Phantasm is Excalibur Protos of Arthur Pendragon from Fate Prototype, the sword has enough firepower normally but when the right cicumstances are met it releases the seals that hold its true power. When the 13 Seals are released (one for each Knight of the Round Table and King Arthur) Excalibur protos because the only Anti Anti-Planet Noble Phantasm of the Nasuverse, it means the sword was created to destroy enemies that destroy worlds in one shot! Not warped bot obliverate planets, think of a sword that can slay Primal Murder with relative ease.

        haseo0408
        Reply

      7. Maybe but we have never seen what a Saber with access to Avalon could do with a decent master/prana supply. We have not idea how mobile Avalon is or its utility in combat.
        All we know is that ig Gil can be closed down and the Gate spam averted then he will likely lose against someone with decent swords skills.

        Symptomatic
        Reply

      14. A reminder that most rules in the Fate multi-universe are stated by a character and thus just a opinion not a rule.
        Shiro can trace Excaliber as he has been able to read it but it is not an exact copy. His limits with Devine Constructs is probably if he can understand the way it works which he can not do for most of them. But only Ilya, Kuro, and Myu have the mana supply to actually use them roughly at full power or even better because they have an unlimited mana supply much greater than the Saber’s have when they are merged with Emya. And now that Illya and Myu can actually merge with the heroic spirit of any card they get they get to use the real thing when they are Saber.

        RedRocket
        Reply

    2. Remember his first fight with Saber when he fought her in melee and just kept swinging different weapons with different effects at her? Unless you’re insanely good at melee combat and can kill him very quickly, Gil can beat you in melee by virtue of having tons of toys to play with.

      SashaNein
      Reply

      2. Except he did do that against someone who has well above “decent” sword skills and it worked perfectly. He can swap weapons when he swings easily, it’s not hard for him. Your argument is shit considering we’ve seen how it works already.

        Megiddo
        Reply

      3. And yet he lost to Shirou because UBW was faster. So Gil can switch fast enough to keep up with a master swordsman that doesn’t have to switch, but can’t against a decent swordsman who also has to switch?

        everydaygamer
        Reply

      5. If you’re theory crafting we have to account for the fact that if you try that in a real fight, what happens is you get stabbed because you’re defenceless. Or we could jsut not be retards who discuss powerlevels.

        John Hayabusa
        Reply

      4. Shirou/Archer’s specific fighting style with Kanshou/Byakura was the best fighting form that Shirou/Archer could ever logically aquire in life.It was mastered and efficient. The only difference between it and other Heroic spirits is that Kanshou/Byakuya are not renowned enough to be their own high level NPs.
        Archer’s sword style is enough to reach a stalemate with fucking Cu Chualain. He could definately handle Gil in single combat.

        Zork
        Reply

      5. Archer’s sword style is enough to reach a stalemate with fucking Cu Chualain

        yeah a cu who was held back by a command spell. Cu shits on him in UBW when he isn’t held back.

        John Hayabusa
        Reply

      8. Archer was still holding his own easily enough. Sure he was fighting defensively most of the time but thats still a fucking impressive feat against posibly one of the most skilled Lancers in the entire series.

        faizazhar
        Reply

      9. Shirou/Archer’s specific fighting style with Kanshou/Byakura was the best fighting form that Shirou/Archer could ever logically aquire in life.

        Why would that matter when he’s relying on the mastery engraved in the history of the weapons he’s tracing?

        Beltane70
        Reply

      10. It’s not as reliable. Utilizing someone else’s mastery means entrusting your body and will to the skills of someone you’ve probably never met, basically putting yourself on autopilot. It’s best used in limited circumstances, such as firing off inferior versions of other heroes’ techniques when the situation calls for it.

        killjoy_the
        Reply

      1. By being a sneaky bastard and making alligences with other Masters only to fuck them over once they have run their course.
        Shakes is the ultimate sneaky bastard servant. Even more so than any Assassin since he can fuck with the minds of servants and masters alike an no amount of magic resistance can stop him.

        dewlwieldthedarpachief
        Reply

    5. Shakespeare wrote a tragedy about her (Henry VI). While I’m not exactly sure what his abilities are, I think they involve making his tragedies realities. In a way, one could say, he is her natural enemey. The real Shakespeare thought Jeanne was a lying whore btw.

      dean
      Reply

    6. Someone told me that Shakespeare is of the most dangerous Heroic Spirits you could face, I´m not sure what his powers are but he´s the greates manipulative bastard of the Nasuverse, this guy could give classes to Kotomine Kirei, take a minute to think about that.

      haseo0408
      Reply

  12. The art style is a bit jarring for me as I’m not really too used to it, but the animation was awesome. I only wish the battle between Siegfried and Karna was longer.

    Now I’m curious on how Shakespeare is the “worst opponent” for Jeanne.

    HalfDemonInuyasha
    Reply

    1. I wonder as well as in FGO and other sources the Type-Moon wiki is clear that Jeane died a Christian Mytar which is the best thing that can happen to a Catholic and thus no Alter can be created from Jeane. Type Moon is aware that Jeane is fine with her death and she even stated so in this show. The Jeane alter is a creation of Giles with a grail with how Giles thought she should think not how she actually thought. So I hope they are not falling into the old trap of many fictions of Jeane being regretful or angry over her fate but something we are not thinking about now.

      RedRocket
      Reply

  14. Frenetic/Kinetic? The words that come to mind while watching this episode. Reminded me of those classics such as Kill la Kill or Gurren Lagann…Loved it though I would have loved it more if they stuck to the original art style with the details as everything was mostly blurry. Sieg seems to be taking sensu beans as he seems to have recovered quick well from that massive fight. not a scare of dirt in sight. Things like this annoys me as there seems to be no price to pay and they have been harping on how he is using up his life with each fight. Oh well, the plot is driven forward and I am still liking the show.

    Kurik
    Reply

      3. Isn’t it implied in the myths that atlanta totally knew she was being duped by let it happen because she didn’t want to murder the guy and also kinda wanted to marry him anyways?

        TcDohl
        Reply

      5. I dont think so but there are a few different versions of nearly every Greek myth.

        The general accepted one is that she was genuinely comitted to Artemis and her chastisy vow and wanted no partner at all. Which is why she happily killed the ones who lost against her in the race.

        The guy who beat her did so without Atalanta’s knowledge of the tricks he was going to use. Its just that the Golden Apples were too much for her to ignore.

        zalas
        Reply

  16. Some corrections:

    -Because his heel was hit, Achilles lost his invulnerability and his speed dropped by 60%.
    -Atalanta, being a heroic spirit, could have easily repelled the wraiths that made up Jack herself, but she kept them because of her character.
    -Brahmastra Kundala is an anti-country NP. It’s super costly in terms of mana, but Shirou rewired everyone’s lines so they can get mana from the grail.
    -Sieg also inherited Fran’s NP Bridal Chest and Galvanism skill, which allowed him to recycle the mana in the environment and replenish his own. This allowed him to spam Balmung against Karna’s Brahmastra.
    -Vasavi Shakti can only be used by forfeiting Kavacha and Kundala permanently. The armor is fused to Karna’s skin so removing it is equivalent to flaying himself. Understandably, the anime cut this out.
    -A command seal boosted Balmung was equivalent to Vasavi Shakti, but then it became a contest of willpower and that was no contest at all.

    bakato
    Reply

    1. Vasavi Shakti can only be used by forfeiting Kavacha and Kundala permanently. The armor is fused to Karna’s skin so removing it is equivalent to flaying himself. Understandably, the anime cut this out.

      Hearing that his NP requires so much sacrifice makes me actually believe the explosion we saw should have been even larger.

      Takaii
      Reply

      3. The Haging Gardens of Babylon are part Seminaris herself not of the outside world, part of the territory she ruled when alive so it makes that a Noble Phantasm that makes nuke look tame wouldn´t be enough to destroy from the inside. If Karna would have used that thing outdoors you can kiss most of Rumania goodbye.

        haseo0408
        Reply

  17. I love the Fate franchise but the first episode was just such a tad disappointment for me. But I’ve always checked every episode post in this site to get me a reason to go back to it. Just looking at the screencaps made me think, wow, that animation is beautiful! Maybe this will be the only episode I will be watching.

    The directing and script was the major reason why I didn’t watch past the first episode, but the animation everyone’s talking about for this episode looked good enough for me to at least check out.

    tanz
    Reply

  18. Honestly, I would rather Apocrypha look like this from the start. I have no problem with the battles looking like this because a) their movements are more fluid and human-like b) better choreography than previous episode battles (apart from Chiron vs. Achilles, the real only decent battle A-1 has animated with this series). Then again it probably wouldn’t have been able to fit within their budget because specifically animators from Studio Bones and 3Hz (since it was stated that they got people who were on Flip Flappers and Mob Psycho to work on this) worked on this episode for the most part.

    That being said, there still were issues with keyframes being wonky looking. No I’m not talking about In-between frames. Yes I realize stylization is the key word for this episode. But that doesn’t excuse just bad Key Frames. When a frame is on screen for more than a second and isn’t used for transition from Frame A-to-B, its a KeyFrame. There were A LOT of bad KeyFrames in the Karna vs Seig fight. Didn’t really have any problems with Jeanne, Achilles, & Atlanta. Its going to suck though if the animation returns to how it was for the rest of the series. Because they have A LOT of stepping up to do in order to top this weeks episode.

    SDFGS
    Reply

    3. The characters looking awkward more than once in this episode resulted in me not enjoying it as much, no matter how great the animation. The “tradeoff” was not worth it to me.

      boingman
      Reply

  20. https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2022%20-%20Large%2019.jpg
    I forgot what that jewel is supposed to be in Karna’s chest.

    https://randomc.net/image/Fate%20Apocrypha/Fate%20Apocrypha%20-%2022%20-%20Large%2028.jpg
    I am stumped about Kavacha and Kundala’s defense. They don’t seem that great.

    Anyway, if Alexandre Dumas can reproduce all the Noble Phantasms used, in this episode, then Fate/Strange Fake would be very interesting.

    L002
    Reply

    3. Not mad at all, just self-hating and pained. Because she sees a reflection of what she could have been or was. Not in the same way Saber Alter was, but in a different way.
      Lancer Arthuria’s entire interlude is about her being depressed and trying to stay away from people because she thinks she might end up the same as Lion King. The king is heartless, the king is ruthless, the king doesn’t understand people, Lion King is the heartless divine king that reflects this.
      To be clear Lancer Arthur you summon and Lion King are different, have slightly different backstories. Lion King has the same backstory as normal Arthuria, but Bedivere fucked up so she couldn’t die properly. While Lancer Arthuria just chose the spear from the start rather than Excalibur.

      Excalibur
      Reply

    3. Bro, most of Achilles’ NPs are useless because Higa can’t write for shit

      Comet form
      Supposed to make Achilles the fastest servant but is only barely faster than Karna
      Invincibility
      Doesn’t work on divinity and divine constructs, which just about every top-tier Servant has. He wouldn’t need it against anything less in the first place
      Duel Field
      Needs his opponent to agree, which no sensible servant would if it disadvantaged them
      Protection of the Faith
      Already applied to his stats sheet.In other words, Achilles raw parameters (not factoring skill) would just be average without it.
      Chariot
      Does jackshit so we don’t know how strong it is besides being a B+ NP
      Shield
      The only Noble Phantasm that actually warrants the hype.

      IngramanX303
      Reply

      2. Invincibility

        Doesn’t work on divinity and divine constructs
        It does, but to a lesser degree that is contingent on the rank of whatever it’s warding against. For example, Medusa has divinity and would be able to hurt Achilles thanks to it, but because her divinity rank is so low her attacks would only be 25% effective or possibly even less.

        Duel Field

        Needs his opponent to agree
        He actually doesn’t, but he would refuse to use it unless he thought his opponent was cool with it, so practically there’s not much difference.

        HaruhiToy
        Reply

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