Posted by  |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
「乱階の夜」 (Rankai no Yoru)
“Night of the Approaching Disturbance”
After I brought up the controversy this series is edging upon back in episode two, it looks like Anime no Chikara dares to tread on that iffy time frame in history after all, as the story rapidly approaches its take on the Mukden Incident. Better known as the Manchurian Incident in Japan or the September 18 Incident in China, the controversy stems over the cause of the Second Sino-Japanese War, where the Japan’s Imperial Kwantung Army invaded Manchuria under the pretense that the Chinese dynamited the Japanese-controlled South Manchuria Railway. This led to the Nanking Massacre or “Rape of Nanking” six years later where Japan slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians in the country’s former capital and raped tens and thousands of women in addition to committing various other acts of cruelty (i.e. war crimes) just to make a statement.
However, the prevailing historical view on the bombing is that it was staged by Japanese militarists to give them a pretext for war, since Japan considered itself the dominant power in East Asia following their victory in the the Russo-Japanese War. Under the guise of a Pan-Asianism movement, Japan further attempted to justify its invasion of China and parts of Southeast Asia with propaganda such as the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, but eventually, the other countries that originally supported Japan in their cause saw that they were only in it out of self interest with little regard for their anti-British/Western ideals. In short, it’s a very dark part of history that was met with further controversy when it was discovered that the Japanese government was permitting the use of high school history textbooks that showcased Japan’s actions in a positive light.
Anyway, before I get carried away and turn this into an all-out discussion on Asian history (which I’m really interested in but not that familiar with, so feel free to correct me on any of the above), the big thing is that Senkou no Night Raid, a Japanese anime, will depict their version of what happened. The obvious thought is that Japan would never dare to showcase themselves in a negative light in an anime when they won’t even do it in their history textbooks, but surprisingly the producers at Anime no Chikara may just man up and take responsibility in some form. They have announced that the next episode, titled “Incident”, won’t be aired on any television broadcast (hence why there was no preview this week). Instead, it will be streamed online for free on the official website for about a two week period. Filling in on the TV time slot will be a recap episode on what has happened so far, told from the point of view of a key character to the story.
It’s unknown whether this was done because broadcasters weren’t allowed to air a Japanese production that potentially blames Japan for the Mukden Incident or if Anime no Chikara simply felt it would cause too much of a commotion, but I find this a pretty big deal when an anime episode of all things is being more or less censored due to political views. Not nudity, but history. It still remains to be seen if the stream will be region-filtered, where the biggest statement over censorship would be made if it ends up being Japan itself that is locked out. It’s unlikely given how the site says that watching both this episode and the recap that will be aired on television is key to getting the whole story, but damn, Senkou no Night Raid would be the next thing listed with the rest of Japan’s controversial treatment of their own history if that happened.
In any case, I strongly believe that the story is working towards pinning the blame on a Japanese person, but not all of Japan. In particular, Yukina’s brother Isao, who’s been acting in accordance to his own take on Pan-Asianism. He’s encouraged by a Japanese philosopher named Miki, whom he goes with to secretly meet with various other countries‘ representatives as they attempt to establish themselves in an era dominated by Caucasian super powers. The major qualm I had with that though is how they portrayed Isao’s actions as solely his own. I didn’t mind how they played up the notion that they were out of good faith towards truly uniting Asia, but by making him willingly become a scapegoat and betray his own country if needed, it allows Japan to play the “victim” card yet again. In other words, how they were supposedly caught up in a bombing conspiracy of the South Manchuria Railway set up by a small group of Japanese individuals and things got ugly after the finger-pointing started.
The wounds are far too deep to cast this off as a mere misunderstanding, but I’ll give credit to Anime no Chikara for having the guts to depict history in accordance to the prevailing view if things really turn out that way. I still see the fictional Sakurai Kikan as their way of trying to save some face however, claiming they had a secret agency out to stop these Japanese extremists who acted alone. As for Isao, it’s pretty clear that he honestly believes what he is doing is right, seeing as he tried to convince Aoi to join his cause and had his subordinate hold off Kazura, Yukina, and Natsume without any obvious intention to do them harm. In the latter case, it was pretty cool seeing a battle of super-human powers, with Kazura eventually figuring out that his opponent’s teleportation ability is limited to a set number of fixed locations.
The biggest question mark at the moment is the reappearance of the girl from Aoi’s past, who we were led to believe is dead yet helps our protagonists here. She appears to be voiced by Kawasumi Ayako as well, the narrator of the series, leading me to believe she’s the “key character” in the series that the recap episode next week will center around.
* It’s kind of ironic how English was the language of choice during the secret meeting when they were trying to rid themselves of British/Western rule. Out of all of them, the Indian representative was the only one that sounded fluent.
I’m sure it was the eager and youthful but incompetent Chinese who respectfully begged their much smarter Japanese older brothers to come save them from Western imperialism and lead them in the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere that led to the Mukden Incident. Gosh, these textbooks are great! =/
Are you from Japan Karskin? Or have study history in Japan? I heard about the controversy about this incident from some Chinese people I talk with, but I never knew what they teach the young generation in Japan about this incident. I frankly doesn’t really care that much about this incident, although I know that Japan’s has done some very bad things to the countries they controlled during the war(even at the country I live at, although it’s not as bad and controversial as the Nanking incident) but I’m very curious if their government really is still trying to cover-up the incident by teaching their young generation a made-up version of history.
No, I’ve not studied in Japan. I am an East Asia History major though. If you look down to Youwish’s comment regarding the matter, I do agree with him in that its not the prevailing attitude in Japan right now to deny these incidents or downgrade them completely. However, it is worrying when major figures (not merely extremist right wingers) like Shinzo Abe (former prime minister – denies government involvement with comfort women) or Nariaki Nakayama (former education minister – cheered removal of references to comfort women in Japanese school books) begin to evince these revisionist opinions. As Divine said in his own review of the episode though, the series may have a “good Japanese” vs “bad Japanese” element in retelling Mukden, and that would be fine since there were plenty of Japanese who were against militant expansionism.
Yeah, I agree with Kasrkin that when a former (thankfully) prime minister of Japan visits Yasukuni Shrine, a place that still lists convicted class A war criminals as honored war dead, alarm bells should be going off in your head. As for whether or not the Japanese government actively attempts to suppress or distort the knowledge its citizens get about WW2 attrocities, I would say it depends. I certainly feel that under Shinzo Abe it did do that — one really doesn’t need to look too much further than his views on comfort women to find worrying tendancies. Point is, I suppose, that it’s complicated and shifts with the political winds.
As a chinese person who have heard countless abuse of the japanese by her parents, I am extremely interested too in what the general public thinks, because no matter the word ‘representative’, the higher-ups of the any government will never fully represent its people. 🙂 therefore, I am extremely glad that at least the everyday Japanese youth can still know the truth, because also from a chinese pov, i am utterly sick of prejudice against all japanese simply because some brain-dead emperor who commanded his troops decides that making fathers rape their daughters and sticking bamboo sticks into hundreds of thousands of raped women’s vaginas is fine. however, what IS wrong is that some still return to worship their emperor after such atrocities, and I am in an absolute euphoria and excitement that Anime no Chikara has decided to take a stand!
“Senkou no Night Raid would be the next thing on the listed on Japan’s controversial treatment of their own history.”
I believe you mean “next thing on the list of…”?
Fixed with what I intended to say. Thanks.
(As you can probably tell, the amount of time I actually spend proofreading is next to nil. That was a pretty bad mistake from additional editing though.)
lol There was a white (dunno which country)guy in the meeting but they gave the Indian dude the most fluency…I was laughing at that part.
This show is so awkward. idc why they have to choose this tme period.
Not to nitpick, but … while it is true that many of the more conservative, right-wing elements of Japan do promote a more “blameless” or “justified” (used quotation marks because it is what they would likely claim) view of the Japanese involvement in WW2, it is not true that this is the prevailing viewpoint within the country. Instead it has been the subject of heated debate within the nation, and is (I believe) to a large extent a battle over which of the two historical narratives: justified action vs. opportunistic aggressor, will be the dominant of the two. Examples of this debate are perhaps best illustrated by the debate over the importance of the Rape of Nanjing (the work of Katsuichi Honda would be a good place to start for a more leftist perspective). In fact, I would hazard a guess that the reason the next episode is not being broadcast is due to a fear of the response it would provoke from the right, not necessarily because the majority of Japanese would be against it.
Anyway, sorry I devolved my discussion of this episode summary into one on popular Japanese discourse, but I am also big into Asian history. I do agree though that it is interesting to see the discussion of the Japanese war in China make it into popular media, and anime at that.
When I referred to “prevailing view”, I meant more from the world’s historians outside of Japan. I actually didn’t know what it was like within Japan, so thanks for shedding some light on that.
No worries! And sorry again for being nitpicky >.<;
divine様は上記にあげているwikipediaのMukden IncidentやNanking Massacreの日本語版の記事、特に「南京大虐殺論争」という項目をお読みになられただろうか？
もし日本語が読めるようでしたらそこで Asian history に対する日本側の意見をおおまかに知ることができると思うのでオススメしたい。
ああ、どうもありがとう。
ウィキペディアの日本語の版はまだ読んでいません。 日本語を読めるが、ゆっくりしか読めません。
でも、ついさっき「南京大虐殺事件」の日本側の意見を読みました。 私は英語で皆に伝えておきます。
（下手な日本語ですみません。 私はめったに書きません。）
To everyone else:
tama just suggested that I take a look at the Japanese version of the wiki pages for the prevailing Japanese views on the various incidents.
For the Nanking Massacre, the accepted view within the country seems to be that the Shanghai Expeditionary Army and Japanese 10th Army were overzealous following their victory in the Second Battle of Shanghai and decided to ignore orders and march towards the capital of Nanking. Upon discovering the disobedience later on, the Japanese Central Forces reorganized the two of them into the Japanese Central China Area Army and ordered them to capture Nanking, so they surrounded it and General Iwane Matsui demanded its surrender. When the Chinese Army didn’t comply, they attacked and captured the capital several days later.
That is the extent of what’s written on the circumstances leading up to Japan taking over the capital, at least according to them. I don’t think there’s too much controversy over why Japan decided to take over the capital though (renegade division or not), so much as what they did after doing so. I haven’t read that much of the Japanese wiki pages yet, but if anyone else can read Japanese, they’re worth checking out.
日本語でご返答いただき恐縮です。
ここは英語圏の人に向けたブログなので本来は私が英語で書くのが礼儀だと思うのですが 残念ながら私の英語では意味の通る文章は書けなかったためやむなく日本語で書かせていただきました。
さて、ここでの議論を見て是非伝えたいと思うことがあったので少し長くなりますが書かせていただきます。
第一に、日本人は自国の歴史を隠蔽しているという意見がありますがこれは事実ではありません。
南京大虐殺についても満州事変についても日本の歴史教科書は包み隠さず伝えております。これは実際に日本で教育を受けた私が言うのだから間違いありません。
このことを踏まえて第二に南京大虐殺事件についてですがこの事件はwikipedia日本版を読めば分かるとおり
「そもそも本当にあった事件なのか」
「あったとしたらその規模はどれほどだったのか」
が研究者によって意見が分かれていていまだに統一見解はありません。
外国ではすでに事実として認定されているようですが、いまだに日本では論争中であることをお伝えしておきます。
第三にI’m sure a lot of people would love to see Japan take responsibility like the Germans did for the Holocaust.という意見についてです。
これは「閃光のナイトレイド第二話」のpostに出てくるdivineさまの言葉ですがこれは直訳すると「私は多くの人が日本人に対してドイツ人がホロコーストに対して責任をとったことを見習うべきだと言っていたことを知っている」ぐらいの意味になると思います。
もちろんこれはdivineさまの意見ではなく「こういう意見もあるよ」という例として紹介したのだと思います。ですから別にdivineさまを責めているわけではないのですが私は日本とドイツを同列に置くこの意見には賛成できません。なぜならナチス・ドイツの行ったホロコーストというのはwar crime ではないからです。
war crimeとは戦場において敵国民に対して戦時国際法（Law of War）に違反した行為を行うことですがナチス・ドイツの行ったホロコーストというのは当時のナチス・ドイツ支配下にあった土地に住んでいるJewish people、すなわち自国民に対してナチス・ドイツ政府が自ら行った殺戮です。日本兵も戦場において敵兵に対して戦時国際法に違反した行動をとったことはありますが特定の日本国民を皆殺しにしようとしたという事実はありません。
だからナチス・ドイツのホロコーストというのはwar crimeではなくいうなればnational crime（こういう英語があるのかどうか知りませんが）というのが正しいかと思います。だからナチス・ドイツと比較すべきなのはJoseph Stalinがsovietで行った大粛清やKhmer RougeがCambodiaで行った大殺戮、Máo Zédōng がchinaで行った大殺戮であると思います。
意外に思われるかもしれませんが戦争というのは戦時国際法を守る限りは合法手段であって戦争自体は違法行為ではありません。ただし、違反するとそれは国際法上はwar crimeとみなされます。ですからアメリカやイギリスがww2でドイツの民間人に対して行った爆撃も国際法上はwar crimeに該当します。
最後に満州事変のことをinvasion of chinaと呼ぶ件についてです。あまり知られていませんが実は満州というのは中国人の土地ではなく満州人という民族の土地です。Great Wall of Chinaという世界一巨大な建物が満州と中国の間にあるのはもともとGreat Wall of ChinaがBorderの役割をしていたからです。その満州人がMongolianやTibetanと同盟して中国をinvasionしてつくったのがいわゆるQing Dynasty と呼ばれる中国最後の王朝です。ですから日本が行った満州事変をinvasion of chinaというのは現在の中国政府のpropagandaによるものが大きいのではないかと推測しています。
もちろん、だからといって満州が日本人のものだという理屈にはなりませんが、当然のことながら中国人のものでもないわけです。
You mind doing a summary translation of Tama’s views for the rest of us to read Divine? Sorry to ask you for this. Hopefully I’m not misunderstanding what he’s saying (from the bits and pieces I’m picking up), because it is sorta troubles me.
Translations of the more important parts of tama’s comment:
1. ‘Despite opinions to the contrary the Japanese people have no intent to hide their own country’s history. Japanese history books hide no details on the Nanking Massacre or the Manchurian Incident. As someone who was educated through the japanese system I would know it well.’
2. ‘While overseas opinion has accepted the Nanking massacre as fact, in Japan it is still being debated. Researches are still arguing whether or not it actually happened, and the scale of the incident’
3. ‘Japan’s actions and responsibility should not be compared equally with Nazi Germany and the holocaust.’ (He goes on here to justify this by talking about the definition of war crimes as being atrocities done against citizens of enemy nations as compared to against one’s own nation, but I think he has the definition a bit off so I’ll leave it out).
4. ‘The Manchurian Incident should not be labelled as an ‘invasion of china’ as Manchuria is the land of the Manchurin people and not of China. (he includes a brief explanation of the historical divide of Manchuria and China stemming from the great wall). Labelling the Manchurian Incident as an Invasion of China may well in part be from the propaganda of the current Chinese Government. Of course Manchuria was not Japan’s land but it also wasn’t China’s.’
Please note these are not my opinions and I’m merely translating to the best of my ability. You should direct replies at Tama. Personally I don’t really agree with him but I’ll stay clear of the sticky ground and continue to enjoy the anime as purely fiction.
I just read tama’s comment and DarkWind’s translation is pretty spot on. The one thing that I wanted to add is that tama isn’t really trying to refute my statements, but comment on how the Holocaust would be better compared to some of the other massacres caused by Joseph Stalin, etc.
The point he’s making is that Japan doesn’t deny the Nanking Massacre happened, but the details are a subject of controversy within the country because the rest of the world has already drawn a definitive conclusion. However, the fact they still leave it in limbo after all this time just seems to dodge the issue in their educational system, when there were eye-witness accounts and photo evidence from that period by foreign traders in China at the time. In particular, the group that formed the Nanking Safety Zone during it all.
The other heated subject of debate is over the death toll numbers. The more pressing matter is the issue over the killing of innocent civilians and gang rape of Chinese women before killing them, which the International Military Tribunal for the Far East already found Iwane Matsui guilty of and sentenced him and others to death by hanging. In short, there’s enough evidence that the world feels it’s disrespectful to the victims to educate future generations that it “wasn’t that bad”, so much that it affects relationships between China and Japan even to this very day.
Next episode will not air on TV next week, only online because of the controversies that might come up since next ep is about the Mukden incident.
I don’t particularly care about the incidents, the sins those who are no longer alive commit against those who are no longer alive is not worth holding a grudge over. However, I can’t tolerate revisionist policies covering up the truth. Admit it was wrong, apologize, and we all move on.
IMO the problem is that so many of the most senior members of the Japanese government still have that revisionist view on history. You have numerous former Prime Ministers repeatedly visiting the Yasukuni Shrine despite protest from China and Korea and even the current Governor of Tokyo repeatedly stating that the Nanjing Massacre was a fabrication/propaganda by the Chinese government and using words like Sangokuin (equivalent of the N word in the US, except referring to Chinese, Taiwanese, and Koreans in Japan). If that view is not the prevailing consensus by the general Japanese populace, then why would you elect people with those views? Would anyone in the US elect someone to an even remotely public office (let alone the equivalent of Presidency or Mayor of Washington DC or NYC) if they denied slavery ever happened. Would Germany ever elect a Chancellor that is known to deny the holocaust? Of course not. Those people wouldn’t even be able to get a seat in a state legislature, let alone higher up positions, no matter how much of their other policies appealed to people.
Every defender of Japanese views keep saying revisionist beliefs are not the general consensus, but it is your public and government figures that represent you in the outside world. If they don’t represent your views, let alone in such a sensitive issue, why elect them? Your leaders’ actions reflect the people.
-Sorry for the rant, it’s just common sense that people do not realize sometimes.
I would like to point out that while this may be true in the United States, the same cannot necessarily be said of Japan, which until recently was basically a one party governmental system. The Liberal Democratic Party had been the really the only powerful political group within the country for roughly the past 60 years (from the end of WW2 in 1945 to 2007). It is important to recognize two things about this. Firstly, the Liberal Democratic Party in Japan (despite our own conception of what being a liberal and Democrat means here in the states) are a moderate to radical conservative party. Secondly, the way a dominate-party system works is that after a while, sheer inertia keeps one party on top, because the citizenry and special interest groups cannot imagine having someone else in power. Point is here, while you can compare the prime minister of Japan to the American presidency, or the Germany chancellery, it is equally import to recognize that they are shaped and determined by very different forces.
As for your final point that Japanese people should be electing officials that are more in line with their views, as of 2009, they arguably did just that by throwing the Liberal Democratic Party and placing the Democratic Party of Japan in their place. Apparently, the new party is attempting to mend fences with both South Korea and China and relations are warming, though I would also say to wait and see if this lasts. I guess my overall point would be this, don’t be so hasty to portray an entire nation as being unrepentant for it war crimes. I think a rough equivalent would be to say that all Americans still remember the invasion of Iraq fondly.
Awesome…never knew you were such a history buff Divine.
Thank you so much for translating DarkWind =D I was correct in my initial assessment based on my limited understanding of what he wrote.
I could write pages refuting the ridiculous contradictions and hypocrisy in each of his points (definition of war crimes, status of Manchuria, etc.) but I think it’s pointless. What I will say though is if he really is “educated through the Japanese system” then we can all see where the problem lies, which completely affirms the points Divine made in his post. I really hope for the sake of those people that say revisionism in Japan is only isolated to a few (albeit most of the elected officials that represent their country…LOL as I stated before), and not everyone shares the same views as Tama does after being educated in that system (esp when it just takes 2 seconds to look up the proper international definition of war crimes) =_=
I’m not gonna get into the ghistory aspect right now, because I’m busy, so I’ll just say…. maaaaan, told ya! This show is awesome. It has my full respect.
I’d hate it if they attempted to use one villain as a scapegoat for all of Japan’s atrocities. There has a precedent for criticizing Japan in anime: I remember Samurai Champloo’s plot dealt extensively with the treatment of Christians and Ainu during the Tokugawa Shogunate. Of course, that’s not nearly as controversial as the Manchurian incident. Nevertheless, I hope that Anime no Chikara doesn’t give into fear of controversy and depicts the incident in a truthful manner.
This blog post and the subsequent comments were interesting to read. o__o
Maybe I’ll give Senkou no Night Raid another chance. I remember giving up after watching the second episode despite enjoying the first.
ところでdivineさまは読書はお好きですか？
もし南京事件のdetailを知りたいならば以下の文献が参考になるかと思います。
肯定派 『The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II 』
written by Iris Chang
否定派 『The Making of the “Rape of Nanking”: History and Memory in Japan, China, and the United States』 written by Takashi Yoshida
それから当時も今も変わらない日本のGeopoliticｓをよくとらえている文献として
『Coming War With Japan』 written by George Friedman,Meredith LeBard
という本をオススメしておきます。
well, for what it worth, the royal family of the Qing dynasty which ruled China for up to 300 years until the country became a republic in 1911 were Manchurians. During their rule they “Chinesenized” themselves by adopting to the Chinese writing system, Speaking Chinese, having Chinese Names, switching to Chinese religious etc.. The Manchurians thought themselves as Chinese.
In fact, the last emperor stayed in his palace till 1933 when people thought it unjust for them to live in the palace which the central government spent so much to maintain each year. They also receive income from the government till 1933. After being expelled from his palace, the emperor were taken hostage by the Japanese and were made the scare-crow head of the Manchurian kingdom on occupied Chinese territory.
ご意見ありがとうございます、horaceさん
英語で返答できたらい一番いいのですが英語はできないので日本語で返答させていただきます。
horaceさんがおっしゃりたいのは
「満州人は中国を３００年支配したことで逆に言語、宗教、習慣がすっかり中国化したから中国とみなすべきだ」
ということですね。
解説する前にそもそもQing dynasty（以下 清朝と記述）の実態とはどのようなものだったか少し説明しなければなりません。
これは要するにManchurian（満州人）である emperor（皇帝）が４つの地域、すなわちManchuria（満洲）,Mongol（モンゴル）,China（中国）,Tibet（チベット）の四地域を一人の皇帝が支配した国のことです。
ここでは通俗的に「皇帝」という言葉を使わせていただきましたがこれは中国地方の君主の名称で、満洲とモンゴルでは「khaan（ハーン）」、チベットでは「チベット仏教の最高指導者」と名乗っていました。もちろん、同じ人が違う名前で呼ばれていたのです。
つまり現代風に言うなら「中国は満州人の植民地（colony）」だったわけです。しかしながら満州人は中国人に比べて圧倒的に人口が少なかったため、満洲と中国を合併してしまったら満州人が中国人に飲み込まれるのは明らかでした。そこで考えられたのがこの一人の皇帝が名称を変えて４つの地域を同時支配する同君連合という統治「の仕組みです。つまり支配者は同じだけれど満洲と中国は別の国で、中国人は満洲に行きたくても行けませんでした。（逆に満州人は中国に自由に出入りできたようです。）
そして清朝皇帝は支配地域の文化をそれなりに尊重したようで、中国人の伝統文化である、「歴史書を記述する」「漢字を使って文章を書く」という営みは弾圧しなかっようです。歴史書を記述するというのは実は中国独特の文化的な営みの一種で、満州人やモンゴル人のような遊牧民（nomad）は歴史にあまり興味がありませんでした。そのため、清朝の歴史というものは中国語で書かれており、これが満州人が中国語をしゃべっていたという誤解の元のようです。
たとえば清朝皇帝は「愛新覚羅」と中国語で記述されますがこれは満洲語の「アイシンギョロ」の訳語です。
それから満州人の宗教(religion)についてですがこれはちょっと資料が少ないです。しかしながらどうやらモンゴルなどと同じく遊牧民独特のShamanismを信仰していたようです。中国人の宗教はTaoismですが、これは清朝支配下の中国だけにとどまったようです。
そして最後に「満州人は中国の習慣を受け入れた」というご意見ですがこれは逆のようです。「中国人が満州人の習慣を受け入れた」というのが正しいようです。たとえば辮髪(queue),cheongsam(mandarin gown) などは現在では中国人の文化だと思われているようですがこれはもともと満州人の文化です。逆に中国人由来の文化である纏足
(Foot binding)などは満洲ではそれほど普及しなかったようです。
The concept of “Chinese” encompasses 56 ethnicities, including Manchu, Tibetan, Mongolian etc. They way you seem keep using the word “Chinese” seem to only imply “Han Chinese.” That is a MAJOR misconception in the west. The equivalent of the word “Chinese” in China is “Zhongguoren” (or “Chugokujin” as you know). That word in Chinese means EVERYONE who’s a national of PRC (and ROC according to some). It in no way implies ethnicity. Only when ethnicity is implied, are words like Han Zu (loosely meaning “Han tribe”), Man Zu (Manchu “tribe”), Zang Zu (Tibetan “tribe”) used. You being Japanese and using the word “Chugokujin,” written the same way in Kanji as Chinese, I thought would know this… instead of keep making the argument that Manchus are somehow not Chinese.
Even if you mean just Han Chinese itself, if you look back in history, that “ethnicity” was coined in the Han Dynasty (206BCE-200CE), the Han before then were a group of various ethnic peoples before that too. It really is the Country that the people live in that makes what the people are. Today, the word Chinese is a group of 56 ethnicity in China, so making the argument that Manchuria or the Manchus weren’t Chinese is meaningless and incorrect. They had been the rulers of the last dynasty of China and considered themselves the Zhonguoren for a long time.
PS. Please try to type in English, it’s really tough to understand your arguments otherwise. As you can understand Horace, Divine, and many others’ posts in this thread, your English capabilities are probably much better than the Japanese proficiencies of most of the readers here. I really like this civil discussion though, much better than some heated name-calling debates I see in Wikipedia xD.
Oh btw, I don’t get how you keep using the words 満洲 when referring to Manchuria, to try to argue it is different from China. That word is almost NEVER used, historically or currently, in China to refer to the region. Only during the Japanese occupation and subsequent establishment of the puppet state during WWII was the word formally used for 満州国/Manchukuo. In Chinese Manchuria is 东北/東北 (lit. Northeast) or historically 关东/關東 (lit. East of the Pass). It saddens me if Japanese people still use 満洲 when referring to that region. This is not WWII anymore… =.=
I appreciate the interest you’ve shown in adding to the discussion Chen^2, but it’s probably best not to shun out tama’s opinions completely if there’s a bit of a language barrier. I’m sensing a bit too much ill-will towards the Japanese in some of these comments, which isn’t a good thing when misunderstandings are bound to occur. Feel free to provide other views though, preferably without shooting the messenger (i.e. tama).
divine,
Sorry if my comments seemed insulting to tama. I was merely trying to point out some the obvious holes in his arguments and his word usage, not trying to attack him personally. I apologize it seemed like that’s what I was trying to do the whole time. It just bugged me that some of his beliefs and words are borderline insulting. It is also kind of frustrating when during a discussion, someone suddenly uses another language to reply to a previous comment, then anyone who does not understand said language have to use a translator or wait for someone else to translate, or just ignore that person completely (which is rude). Imagine that happened in a normal conversation/discussion, or if someone suddenly started posting their argument here in Chinese or Korean only, I think people would not be so accommodating. That is why I suggested he use English, no matter what his proficiency might be, maybe that was wrong of me.
tama,
I apologize again if my comments seemed to personally insult you, what’s not my intention. Also, about your usage 満洲/满洲, it seems like even today, the word is still used in Japanese to refer to that region as such, which is not the case in China due to obvious political and historical reasons (WW2, etc). I apologize if my comment seemed a little presumptuous.
I would normally be against the usage of another language for the sake of discussion here, but given that this is a Japanese culture/media focused blog, I told him he could post in Japanese. I wasn’t expecting a debate beyond him trying to tell me something, but I guess that was bound to happen after some translation happened.
In any case, he’s being pretty humble about the views he’s presenting, which is more or less the other view that some Japanese — but not all of them — believe. I can’t say I agree with them myself since tama’s trying to justify Japan’s actions with technicalities, stating that Manchuria technically wasn’t China’s while glossing over how Japan still attacked a clearly more Chinese-associated region, but if there’s anyone to focus your frustration on, it would be the Japanese government for educating their people as such.
They seem to hide it all under the guise that it was for the betterment of Asia and for noble causes (sigh), when in reality they were just instigators out to expand their own territory. Given my personal background, I actually have more reasons to be annoyed about how Japan seems to dodge the issue, but it does us little good to get bent out of shape about it now.
そうですね、ごめんなさい。
I can read English a little,but I can’t write English.
もう書くのはやめにしておきます。
日本語で書けば大丈夫ですよ。 日本人の意見は気になります。
The anime as a pure fiction is interesting.
Love reading all your comments here. I haven’t bothered much about modern history until now.
Chen^2さん
こちらこそ安易にpropagandaなどという言葉を使ってごめんなさいね。確かに立場によっては満洲ではなく中国東北部という見方もできます。
それから私が中国人の定義を曖昧にしたことも気に入らなかったかもしれません。私も中国が多民族国家だと知りながら話を分かりやすくするためにこのような表現を使ったのですが、そのことがあなたを傷つけたのなら謝罪します。
それからdivineさん
＞it would be the Japanese government for educating their people as such.
どうやらあなたは私の意見が日本の教育から来ていると考えているようですがそれは違います。
日本の教科書は満洲事変を中国への侵略であると教えています。
私が参考にしたのはモンゴルや中国、満洲を研究している岡田英弘（おかだ ひでひろ）・宮脇淳子（みやわき じゅんこ）という学者の論文です。
当然のことながら日本には言論の自由があるため私の他にもいろいろな意見が存在しています。
あなたは日本を言論弾圧国家だと考えているようだがそれは完全に否定しておきます。
もっと日本のいろいろな意見を知ってください。
最後になりますがもちろんdivineさんがどうお考えになっても自由でございます。
いろいろな意見を参考に自分なりに解釈してください。
tama-san,
Thank you again for your opinions. I do get most of what you wrote but probably have to wait till someone fully translates it. xD I am not familiar with those 2 Japanese authors you listed, maybe you can shed a light on their viewpoints. Of course Japan is a free society where everyone are allowed to have different opinions. However, the fact that the Japanese government approved textbooks that ignored/glossed over a big part of history and what the Imperial soldiers did before and during the war was a big problem, as it put the idea in the younger generation’s mind that nothing really happened, or it was no big deal. It is those younger generations that are going to be the future of Japan. That is precisely why so many Chinese and Koreans were angry and protested and what I assumed divine referred to when he mentioned the Japanese government educating their people as such. When something is taught to kids in school early on at a young age, that idea is ingrained and very hard to get rid of.
Of course I am not saying the Chinese government is not without faults either. Growing up I’ve seen numerous films in China depicting the atrocities of the Japanese soldiers performed on Chinese civilians (I moved to the US when I was 9), of course some were blew way out of proportion and generalizing all Japanese the same way was wrong, and I recognize that. I think the government now have been trying to tone down on the anti-Japanese sentiment in China, due to very close economic ties between the two countries as well as improving foreign relations, so maybe that sentiment will change eventually. Of course I do not know that first hand, being in the US for more than 10 years.
I have absolutely nothing against Japanese people, I wouldn’t be on this site or watching anime in the first place if I was (I just visited Tokyo last summer with a bunch of college friends, it was amazing, and we’ll probably go again soon ^_^). Actually, despite being an American now, nothing would please me more than seeing someday China, Japan, Korea, and other countries of Asia banding together and forming the Asian equivalent of the EU. However, sadly and realistically I think that will never happen. There’s just too much bad-blood, stubbornness, and prejudices on all sides, but maybe time will change that. Sometimes I wonder how Europe can be the way it is today after so many bloody wars in its history. Maybe that is something Asian countries and we Asians should learn. T.T
divine,
I feel bad making you reply so many times in this discussion even though you already are so busy blogging all those shows everyday. Thanks again for being so patient.
Indeed. I don’t have time to get into a debate about this, especially when it’s turning into a roundabout discussion while trying to discredit one another rather than addressing the actual issues at hand.
Also, tama’s reading too much into my statement on the Japanese educational system. He’s under the assumption that the statement is absolute and that I believe free speech is oppressed in Japan, when in actuality I was alluding to the point you made on how those books are even allowed to be used.
tamaさん,
私は日本を言論弾圧国家だと考えていません。 あなたは間違えたようです。 問題はこれです。 とくに「新しい歴史教科書」です。
It’s now gotten to the point that I have to have read a various number of Japanese references to be creditable, so I’d rather not get into that discussion when that requirement doesn’t seem to reciprocate to English and other languages. As I’m not a history expert, I’m not going to approach this as if I could solve the debate once and for all. If I could, I would’ve done the country leaders a favor and not let it drag out to this very day.
divineさん
もう一言だけ
＞it would be the Japanese government for educating their people as such.
日本の教育事情にお詳しいようですね。
おそらく日本の教科書を何冊か読まれたことがあるのでしょう。
どうでしたか？感想を聞かせて欲しいですね。（まさか単にウワサで聞いただけではないでしょう？）
The whole WWII debacle is a contrived distraction for the Chinese to conduct its own imperialist aggression against Tibet, Taiwan and Uygurstan while brutally suppressing dissent within its borders.
Also, the controversial textbooks only cover 1.25% of the nationwide schools system and here we have the Chinese and Koreans going nuts.
>.> *facepalm*
Go troll somewhere else. Read some history books, and learn to spell the region you are “championing” for next time, instead of repeating what you hear from other people like a mindless drone.
If the Japanese were mature enough to learn and acknowledge the correct history, they won’t create so much anime
#1 i’m half-korean and half-japanese so please don’t think i’m trolling
I sometimes get pissed when i hear all the controversy with the whole textbook thing. I can’t be 100% sure since i didn’t go to a chinese school but i’m pretty sure they gloss over or completely deny the tiananmen square incident and countless others(unless someone can claim otherwise) and korean schools have a single history textbook issued by the government. On the other hand the textbooks in japan are a small fraction of the many created by independent publishers with the choice of which text to use up to the schools. i’m not saying it was right for the government to approve these texts but its kind of hard to take sides when both sides are f!@#$d up
oops i guess i had some old info. korean government approved privately published textbooks in 2003
D-lurking for the first time, to say I really glad that an anime is tackling an issue like this! I can’t wait for the subs to be updated, too see where Anime no Chikara takes this.
But the Indian representative was the most fluent in English? Lol I suppose they didn’t have anyone to do an Indian accent? Which is something I’m grateful for, because most of the time the so called ‘Indian’ accent that appears on TV is not the way the majority of us speak.
Interestingly enough for a anime with a historical theme, actual historical figures seem to be lacking, like at the secret meeting for instance, I didn’t recognize any of the representatives, is Anime no Chikara intending to attach any names to this? Just curious.