「第八の契約」 (Daihachi no Keiyaku)
“The Eighth Contract”
And so the apprentice becomes the master. When Kirei brought Kariya back from the brink of death, all it did was whet his appetite for rebellion. It was only a matter of time before he hungered for the ultimate act of defiance: betrayal, at the tip of a blade.
Kirei has always been an extremely dangerous man, even when he was an emotionless one who felt that joy and pleasure were sins. However, his lack of feelings tempered his behavior to such a degree that his actions had no sense of direction, no purpose. Emotion plays an essential role in guiding our behavior, so without them, Kirei was not the agent of his own destiny; he either relied on the guidance of others, or he would stand idly by and let things happen before he could summon enough will to take action himself. One prime example is the people closest to him dying before he can take their lives by his own hand: first his wife, and now his father. He did feel some emotion in that it bothered him and he felt a little regret, but other than that, there was nothing. No grief, no sorrow. In all aspects of his life, Kirei was never a master of any sort.
How did he come to be this way? Was he born devoid of emotions, or is his personality the product of being told what to do for what seems like his entire life? The latter reason is probably the most likely one; Kirei’s father and Tokiomi always issued him orders, instead of trying to understand him and asking what he wanted to do. That’s also probably why Archer’s words were able to have such an effect on Kirei, and why they are a great match for one another. Archer is a King who is used to giving orders, as we’ve seen with Tokiomi, but in his dealings with Kirei, he didn’t give any orders; he only gave him suggestions, and then let Kirei decide if he wanted to act on them. Most notably, by appealing to Kirei’s inner desires, he was the first person who attempted to understand him.
Just as Archer hoped, a character who was once merely intriguing now becomes entertaining. Kirei’s newfound agency was evident throughout this episode, and it made the man whom Irisviel and Kiritsugu feared the most become an even more formidable foe. Where he once lacked direction and purpose, he now is so driven to seek out his answers that not even the fear of destroying himself in the process can stop him. Where he never dared to speak up, he’s now even able to “persuade” Archer to serve him instead, by revealing the truth behind the Holy Grail War. Where he once hesitated to kill those who were close to him, he now relishes in the pleasure and joy of murder. Although I might not approve of his actions, I do respect that at least he finally has a purpose and direction. Kirei is now truly a Master, with a dangerous and powerful Servant at his side.
Speaking of Archer, it was a bit surprising at first that he believed Kirei’s explanation so easily. Is he not clever enough to realize that there was a possibility he was being manipulated? Then again, it was pretty clear Archer doesn’t show any loyalty, as he was never happy with Tokiomi as his Master, and this episode was merely the culmination of all his efforts to manipulate Kirei for the one thing that Archer truly cares about: his own entertainment. As we saw in episode twelve, he has been giving Kirei veiled suggestions and near-propositions for a while now, all to lead to the events of this episode – forming a new Master-Servant contract. In the end, while Kirei might show signs of growth as a shrewd manipulator, it is his new Servant that has been the one gently pulling the strings all this time.
As for third Master who met his end, it was pretty obvious that Tokiomi was going to be the latest casualty of the Holy Grail War. Whether it was saying his farewells to Rin or bequeathing his will and a dagger to Kirei, the death flags in this episode were hard to ignore. As I was never a huge fan of his character, I can’t say I’ll miss him much – he just wasn’t a very likable guy. His whole goodbye speech to Rin about staying indebted to the church and striving for the Holy Grail, all for the sake of the Tohsaka family, showed some of the same lack of understanding that led to his demise. He never considered what Rin’s dreams and aspirations were, because to him, it’s all about what the family wants, and above all, what a mage desires. In the end, Tokiomi never felt like he amounted to much in this war, even though he had meticulously planned and prepared for every detail from the start. Perhaps it was because he was just tactically biding his time and conserving his command spells for the very end, but as a result, his character turned from one who was at the center of the war to one who was more of a bystander. So unlike Lancer, whose presence is sorely missed as the one who understood Saber the most, Tokiomi’s passing won’t be memorable for the person, but instead its effects: the titular eighth contract.
With the casualties of the Holy Grail War beginning to mount up, I fear everyone’s favorite homunculus will be next in line. Irisviel, an example of a yamato nadeshiko done well, has slowly become one of my favorite female characters in recent history. There’s something both alluring and bittersweet about the strength in which she faces the fragility of her body. All this time, it felt like Irisviel had these pent up emotions that she couldn’t tell Saber or Kiritsugu, so she needed someone to understand who she was and what she was going through. It was a bit unexpected that Maiya was the person whom she eventually opened up to, but nonetheless, it was definitely nice seeing Iri able to talk about herself before she weakens too much and can no longer do so. From the snippets that we’ve heard of her back story, it has all the hallmarks of a touching and emotional one. So while the preview for the next episode is a bit vague, I’m hoping that it will be the episode that gives a memorable character like Irisviel the character development she deserves.
I thought the preview was for a different anime series… foolish me.
The Command Seals! Where did they go! The seals during the preview are as much a part of the Fate/Zero universe as the main characters!
ufotable… I demand a refund…
It’s because it won’t be about the Grail War. Watch the OP a little more carefully.
Thanks, but i don’t need people telling me to watch the OP/episode/preview again, I know quite well that the next episode is about Kiritsugu’s past. If you’ve read my post a little more closely, you would’ve realised that i’m just exclaiming the ‘off’ feeling i have after watching a preview without the crystal command seals, which have been there ever since the first episode.
Didn’t Tokiomi say to Rin to make sure the Mage Association was in her debt? (as opposed to the church?)
Yes it’s suppose to be the Association instead of the Church. They’re the ones handling anything related to magecraft. The Association is the one Tokiomi addressed the will to for the instructions for the passing of the family crest and the appointing of the next head of the Tohsaka family which is magus stuff.
Kotomine is the one whom the will was entrusted the will since he’s Tokiomi’s appretince.
There were quite a few errors with Nico’s TL. UTW explained them here: http://pastebin.com/YXn6Gz5s
Finally, Tokiomi got NTR-ed.
Gilgamesh has a mean jewelry game though
Instead of BlingBling, he got BlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingBlingetc
That is a symbol of irony right there if there ever was one. Though only people who watched or played UBW would know.
Kinda disappointed they didn’t show Kirei’s past. Would’ve provided a much more interesting insight to his character.
Totally agree, Oh irony in Fate/Stay Night…….
That didn’t happen in Unlimited Blade Works. It was in Fate. And it’s in the first anime series, too.
whoops, just checked and that seems to be the case.
Well, you know what they say;
“Karma’s a b!tch.”
Even though it’s hardly a chance, I feel like we can only see a real happy ending when Waver and Rider win the grail.
Not sure if you’re unaware, but if you’ve played/watching Fate/Stay Night, you will know that the ending of this 4th Holy Grail War will not be a good one. Also, from FSN, we already know who the victor(s) of this war will be.
I’m glad Gilgamesh and Kirei finally took the plunge and exchanged vows. How sweet. I wish a bright and bloody future for them both.
RIP Tokiomi. You left quite a mess on the carpet.
Join me, Kirei, and I will complete your training. Then we can rule the Holy Grail war as Master and Servant!
／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人 form a contract with me Kirei and become a master.
Gilgamesh’s red eyes are NOT a coincidence right? >_>
I see what what you did there FantomOmega… Eeeevvillll…
“As for fourth Master who met his end, it was pretty obvious that Tokiomi was going to be the latest casualty of the Holy Grail War.”
Fourth Master? I think the Masters who have met their end until this point are Ryuunosuke, Kayneth, and Tokiomi, in chronological order?
Oh yeah, my bad
I suppose he included Sola Iu.
Someone needs to play this song to Tokiomi’s betrayal:
So now we have 4 Servants and 4 masters…
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I love how nonchalantly Kirei and Gil go about this coup. Kirei’s gravelly voice is just so awesomely evil.
Tokiomi also sets off like a chain of death flags at once: exiling Kirei, meeting Rin, passing along the book, writing a WILL…it couldn’t have been more obvious if a pineapple was in there somewhere.
Saber: Kiritsugu I cannot condone the ways of your- *ooh shinies!*
Moral of the episode: This is exactly why daggers don’t make a good gift.
PS: Loli Rin!
Kirei is a sadist, as he gives the same dagger that killed Tokiomi to Rin as a gift. That’s messed up! Holding the dagger that killed your father without you knowing. :S
Anyone who’s seen F/SN or any of the previous sixteen episodes could have seen Kirei’s betrayal coming. But what made the scene so utterly shocking was how underhanded the scene felt. It was a literal back stab. Unlike Kirei, Kiritsugu didn’t owe Kayneth jack shit. But Kirei owed Tohsaka nearly everything, even his participation in the Holy Grail War. Even though Tokiomi had an arrogant and even oblivious facet to his personality, outside of the Holy Grail War’s affairs he remained kind to his wife and Kirei, whom he placed his utmost trust.
Sure, it was incredibly obvious scene which absolutely had to happen, but it was still a shocker.
Thus, the tale of Rin begins….XD
I wish, lol.
Very good episode, and yea…that dagger. XD
Kotomina why u so Kirei
Off topic: Verdant, when do you plan to change the banner? I think almost all spring animes has aired its premieres. I’m starting to sick watching Amata in EVOL banner.
Man, you’re in a crabby mood today!
I figure it’d be better to make a new one when Aquarion ends.
as much as I love evol yeah, the banner should be changed. Even to another banner of evol I don’t really care, I just want to see something new. Same goes for Amagami sidebars. I feel like this has been mentioned before too…
Anyone found the whole conversation between Kotomine and Gilgamesh really funny.
The whole casual beating around the bush when all that had to be said was:
“Wanna go make this war more fun together?””Yup, lets.”
Shush, they’re flirting with each other!
Et tu, Brutu?
Tokiomi was painted in a slightly better light this episode, evidently as caring father to Rin. Sadly this doesnt make me think any better of him considering fate of the Sakura.
So Iris is dying (baaaaw!). Maiya is surprising choice for a deathbed friend, but I consider the hidden message of “Take care of Emiya” to be quite obvious.
Oh, and Saber on the motorbike = hawt!
OK, we have one Master less, and Servant status remains unchanged. 4×4. Balance restored.
With just 4 parties still in the war, 3 of them bearing the royal title of sorts, I expect nothing short of ultimate epicness coming.
I wouldn’t say Tokiomi disregarded what rin wants to do. It’s obvious that rin wants to be a good mage and Tokiomi gave excellent support on that regard and rin looked up to him.
The decision to give away his other daughter maybe questionable but still, he might be a good father for both of them should he not be a mage.
And thus Kotomine Kirei as we know him in Fate/Stay Night is born – a.k.a. the priest who likes saying “Rejoice young one. Your wish will finally be granted.”
Next week: an explanation why the Magus Killer may actually be a Filipino! This is just a joke among us Filipino fans, but Show Spoiler ▼
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Didn’t they just move in there a year before? And ‘Emiya’ doesn’t sound Filipino. So nice try.
But you may be on to something there about that place and the people there. Good find and nice to know a fellow Pinoy in RC.
Croos, MrRei and Megumi
Lol those two guy and the YanTsun moe r Filipino… Btw I am living somewhere close by too. (But defin. not Filipino)
That’s first time I’ve hear about that. BTW, I’m filipino too 😛
To anyone who saw fate/stay night, you should understand the real irony with that dagger.
I really did find it a damn shame that Daddy Tohsaka died like that, without displaying his full potential as a mage. Unlike Emiya and Keyneth, Tohsaka only had one magic fight with Kariya and toyed with him with only using simple flame, levitation, and barrier magic. According to Rin, the Tohsaka family specializes in Jewel magic, so sadly we were unable to see any decent jewel magic at all.
I’d say Rin has already shown how potent jewel magic is by blasting Berserker’s head off.
Or matching FSN!Caster spell by spell AND kicking her ass.
Or its culmination, the Second True Magic of Kaleidoscope.
Nothing is more elegant than doing the backstabbing the literal way.The look in Tokiomi’s face was priceless. And like any BAMF, Kirei gives the murder weapon to the victim’s daughter. Cuz hey, why not?
Gilgamesh talks to Kotomine
Gilgamesh – The Dark Side of the force to many pleasures that some consider to be unnatural.
After Kotomine kills Tosaka
Kotomine (smiles evily) – What have I fone?
Gilgamesh – You’re fulfuling your destiny Kotomine. Be my fool. Learn the pleasures of the Dark Side
*Plays Vader’s tune – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QU5CVdXdr0*
More like Glittering Golden Side. Kirei is already dark to begin with.
Ultimately, Tokiomi’s downfall was his inflexibility. Everything to him was a set of rules from A to B. He planned the entire War from the start but he never did try to adapt to a new situation. That’s why he was so shocked at Kirei’s betrayal. He couldn’t comprehend a betrayal from someone who he taught and raised as a mage. To him something underhanded as a backstab was impossible.
I think his downfall was his complete lack of genre savvy.
To examine, he:
1. Writes a WILL, which he gives to Kirei
2. Gives a literal dagger to Kirei
3. Turns his back on Kirei after doing 1. and 2.
That’s not a murder, that’s suicide by proxy.
Tokiomi’s failure is that Tokiomi is basically a “nerd”.
Tokiomi is only interested in Akasha and True Magics. He does not care about people. To him, the only purpose of life and the family is so someone (him or his descendants) can reach Akasha and/or True Magics.
Kotomine is interested in people. He is interested in Kiritsugu, Kariya, etc. Also Kotomine is one of those bored devils – normal things cannot give him pleasure, so he has to go into the extremes.
Not true. Tokiomi does care for his family and he speaks to Kirei with the affection of a teacher to a student. Its just that his upbringing is steeped in Magus tradition that he can’t comprehend anything else. Its the worse kind of tunnel vision and his wife also shares this train of thought. It should be noted that Tokiomi was REALLY convinced he was doing Sakura a favor by sending her to the Matous. Its a common theme in the Nasuverse that Magi are a bunch of stuffy traditionalists.
I disagree. I think he only cares about his family in case he fails to achieve True Magic… then his daughter can follow his footsteps.
Can’t blame tokiomi there. He already have Gil in spirit form beside him to ensure his safety. So if it’s ONLY kirei who betray him, he won’t die.
No blame on Tokiomi. It’s part of the tragedy in this episode. He had no way of knowing this would happen. He did nothing wrong and prepared his entire life for this, only to be back stabbed by his pupil.
Kudos to Nasu for the unique tragedies we have in Fate.
Nasu didn’t write the story, Urochi Gen did.
Nasu may not have written it, but this part was probably decided by him and not by Butch. Nasu already provided in FSN the facts that the Azoth dagger in Fate is irony at its best and in UBW that Kirei backstabbed Tokiomi, as Tokiomi did not pay attention, since Kirei was his apprentice. Kudos to Nasu isn’t wrong, though Butch overall also did a magnificent job.
Rushed as hell episode.
Terrible way to handle Kirei in particular who was, at this point of the novel, breaking down. When he closed his father’s eyes in the novel, he was in tears, recalling his suicidal wife and gripping at the realization: he wanted to kill them. He was aghast at himself. When he had his last conversation with Tokiomi, he lost his grasp in his emotions and began to laugh merrily. When he killed him, he was smiling brightly, there was no malice or evilness, there was a juvenile joy.
Tokiomi was a a tad bad handled too, since they cut his concerns about Sakura. They cut a bunch of things with Saber and Irisviel. Extended edition when?
Also, Gilgamesh visits Kirei in his bedroom. Kotomine was sitting at the edge of his bed when Gilgamesh interrupted his brooding in the dark. Wonder why they changed the locations.
Yeah its sad that they did this. Its making most viewers here hate Tokiomi unwarrantedly. Sure he’s still no saint but most people here discredit his humanity a bit TOO much.
I hope they fit Tokiomi and specially Kotomine in the Bluray. Kirei was being a roll-coaster of emotion in these parts.
As a non-LN reader, the biggest (and only noticeable) problem is how they’re spacing out all these character deaths. 4 episodes into the second half and already 6 characters are dead. I mean, I know they had to at some point, we still have 9 episodes left. Unless there’s a big plot development that is supposed to occur between the final battles with Berserker and Rider, i’m very confused as to why had to arrange it like this.
But again, it’s got to be the only complaint I will ever have with this show.
This was clearly rushed. I think they should have made the series of 26 episodes to pace it a little better. Specially considering they would do an entire episode flashback to Kiritsugu next week.
A lot has been cut (the Servants’ flashbacks are unfortunately goners. Gone is how Waver saw Rider’s defeated enemies join him in comrades in arms as they marched together-we never saw how his conquest worked in the anime sadly-Gone is Enkidu. Gone is Caster’s full vision of himself sharing the glory with Jeanne, when he was a noble, handsome knight lauded a hero of France, etc) in the past.
It’s possible that most pacing problems will be solved with extended episodes.
Wait, what? Why would he want to kill his own wife?
To answer you: Kotomine was born with a defect that he is unable to feel anything except when others experience misfortune (Shirou, the protagonist of FSN, is the same, only he can only experience it by being the salvation or others). He doesn’t get to choose. It’s either emptiness or trolling others. However, unlike people like Uryuu, he had a conscience and was raised as a pious man by his father. He lived his life as hell itself. He tried to change himself to be good, to torture himself (walking with a thorn shoes, cutting himself to the bone) to cleanse himself from evil. He tried to marry a terminal patient, to start a family with her, but no matter what he did, he could only find pleasure in her suffering. He was about to kill himself when his wife tried to make him see he could still be moved and loved, by killing herself in his presence. “See, you do love me.” Where her last words, pointing his tears. Those were tears of regret he didn’t get to do it. He was so disgusted with himself that he blocked his memories of his reaction.
Days after, he got the command spells.
It was an emotional reaction (while the Anime is trying too hard to make him unemotional, he’s not). Finding his father, the only moral anchor that he had left in the world (who he was looking to have a heart-to-heart because he was confused about his actions and his inner struggle, which was also cut from last episode) dead stirred the same reaction and brought back his memories.
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Ah, thank you. I appreciate the in-depth response.
@Anon: You’re welcome.
He’s a refreshing antagonist because he is seemly the typical “for the Evulz” case (he was born that way), but has a twist of a nurture that made him aim to be a good man. It is the conflict between his nature and his nurture. It isn’t as if he gave up to the only thing that makes him feel happiness and joy so easily, he lived and struggled for decades and tried everything to change. That makes him sympathetic and tragic. Shirou admits he likes Kotomine in HF, it hits him as realization. When Zouken mocked him about how much he tried to fit in a society he would never belong since he was born broken was rage-inducing.
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Now that Tokiomi is out of the way, Kotomine and Archer can spend all their nights together, and they can go past staying sober.
Archer was probably aiming for that from the start.
I see what you did there… XD
If I am not mistaken,
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Only in Fate route. The dagger doesn’t play a role in Unlimited Blade Works route. Meanwhile in Heaven’s Feel.
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Tokiomi didnt deserve to go out like that. Whether you like him or not, he deserved much more spotlight in the war, considering how he’s the head of one of the major houses of mages, and as demonstrated, is pretty powerful when he beat Kariya with no effort.
I would’ve loved to actually see him fight as a master instead of being backstabbed so nonchallantly. I also sympathize with him, because he truly trusted and appreciated Kirei as his apprentice, and even made him Rin’s guardian and entrusted his family to him should anything happen, and Kirei just stabbed him in the back without a care.
I guess part of his downfall is not because he didnt expect a possible betrayal from Kirei, but from Gilgamesh instead. He wasn’t on guard because usually if any danger were to approach, his servant would protect him. But since his servant was the instigator of his murder, well…he didnt expect that.
Be that as it may, I feel like a lot of potential in his character was lost because of the very uneventful way he died. From everything we learned about him you’d think he’d be a favorite to win the war, but now as a result he barely even leaves a mark.
By the way, I am a little worried about Weaver now. It is foreshadowed that Rider and Archer will fight, and we know from FSN that Archer will win. Against Tokiomi I think Weaver would have a high chance to survive. But I really can’t say about Kotomine Kirei. It seems that he would just go in and kill Weaver directly in an engagement…
Waver is too young and innocent to die!
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^El-Melloi is a title, much like having a title like “Mister” or “King” or “the 2nd” or, well you get the point. It is not exclusive to Kayneth, rather it is bestowed upon him, and upon his death a new El-Melloi shall be named.
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Touching on what Verdant mentioned in regards to Tohsaka Tokiomi. I really love how the chaos and dog eat dog nature of the Grail “War” derailed the meticulous planning and supposed nobility of magic that Tokiomi sought.
I particularly love how the Tokiomi’s “I’m the conductor . . . nope. Chuck Testa!!” role spits in the face of orchestration style plot lines like Death Note. That title in particular irritated me due to the asinine meta plotting that Light, L and Near circle jerked to for most of the series. Part of that beef comes from how truly unpredictable people behave and how unforeseen dynamics often influence the outcome of events. Death Note pretended like element didn’t exist. Fate/Zero just showed us what really happens when complexity meets chaos.
But this wind… is weeping just a little.
Oh the amount of memes this has already spawned on Tumblr:
Speaking of Fate Zero memes, you should check out niconico douga, where they’re already making various parodied versions of the new ED, replacing Kiritsugu and Irisviel with:
1. Gilgamesh and Kirei (with baby 5th Lancer) LOLWUT
2. Kiritsugu and Kirei (with baby Shiro)
3. Rider and Waver
4. Kayneth and Lancer
5. The two JASDF pilots that got killed during Caster’s rampage (their baby is a tiny cute tentacle)
Yeah, I know, they’re all guys.
I even saw assassins. 😀
Kotomine the backstabbing apprentice!
Alright, now that Tokiomi is dead i can finally talk about his character without fear of spoiling people and i have to say, that looking at his character overall, i can’t stand him. He certainly isn’t evil, and his last scene with Rin goes a long way towards showing he does care about his family (and does even better in the novel when we see his thoughts) but… he’s an Idiot. The worst kind of Idiot too, the type who thinks he’s brilliant. He constantly makes terrible decisions, and when he dies he has literally screwed over everyone he cares about through his own foolishness.
I mean we are talking about a guy who had 2 beautiful talented daughters and handed one of them over to a creepy old rapist worm man, and the other to a psychotic priest who kills him literally minutes later. A guy who never questioned what his Servant might be doing while away from him all the time. A man who cannot even begin to suspect Kirei’s betrayal because apprentinces don’t betray masters, that’s just not the proper, elegant thing to do! He gives away both his daughters to madmen, without really knowing anything about Zouken or Kirei and both times he does this with a smile on his face, convinced that he knows everything, that everything is going according to his plans and that he has made perfect decisions. He thinks he’s so perfect and elegant when really he is just a complete fool.
The novel even goes out of its way to tell us that he’s an idiot. Here is the narration of the moement where Kirei stabs him.
“Tokiomi staggered forward. Turning his head, he saw only Kirei, smiling brightly, his hands stained with fresh blood—but there was never the slightest indication of understanding in Tokiomi’s eyes even till the end. With only a dazed expression, devoid of anger, he collapsed onto the carpet.
To his final moment, this magus must have stubbornly believed his own understanding to be accurate and refused to accept the real truth. Unerringly believing in the path he had chosen, moving forward without the slightest hesitation every time — what a man, to not wake to the truth even after having fallen into an endless abyss.”
-Fate/Zero Volume 4
…Even as he is dying, he cannot even begin to comprehend the idea of what’s just happened, that he maybe, just maybe, wasn’t correct in his judgements. Do i even need to say anything about this!?
All i can say is that Rin, thank god you didnt turn out like your Father. you made lots of mistakes too, but at least you took care of the people you loved when it mattered.
Also, lets talk about Sakura for a moment. Tokiomi gives his daughter to the Matous and condems her to a life of slavery, rape and torture. The novel shows us in the Rin scene that he really thinks he made the best choice possible. Really!? His ignorance is just gross and unforgivable. Tokiomi had plenty of options to investigate the Matou’s. They have cooperated with his clan for centuries, and fought in 3 grail wars. The Tohsaka house probably has loads of records about their nasty bugs they fight with and more importantly, info about Zouken. Even more obvious, at the start of this war he had Kirei and Assassin. He could have easily sent in Assassin to check the Matou house and make sure Sakura was doing all right, and he doesnt because that wouldn’t be “proper and elegant”. In many ways he is as thick and rigid about things as Saber is.
And I really hate it when people try to defend Tokiomi when it comes to Sakura. It doesnt matter that he “didnt know” what would happen to Sakura. Ignorance is just as damning as intentional cruelty, and their were lots of ways he could have made sure she ended up in a good home. Instead, he jumped at the first family to offer to take her and tossed her out like trash, telling his other daughter never to speak to her again. (No seriously, he does this. Its causes real, nearly fatal problems between Rin and Sakura in FSN)
The fact that Tokiomi didn’t know the truth doesnt matter. The fact remains that a little girl of around 6 years old had her life completly and utterly destroyed and violated because he decided that she had to be a magus and fight for the Grail. Tokiomi and Zouken both doomed Sakura to a life of torture and rape, and i hold both of them fully responsible for it. (Also, it ticks me off that he made the choice for Sakura without even asking her what she wanted, cause i don’t think she would have given a crap about learning magic compared to staying with him and her Sis and Mother She wouldn’t have cared about not being the heir to the family)
Why don’t you just loathe the rapist?
This will be more sensible.
Oh,i do! I honestly hate Zouken just as much if not more really. He’s a despicable old piece of shit, and honestly i think he is the most evil/nasty villain in the series. Kirei also does despicable things, but he pulls it off with such style that, combined with his rather interesting backstory which i wont explain here for Spoilers, i just can’t hate him with the same fire. He’s a Magnificent Bastard. Zouken on the other hand is so petty and cruel and desperate, tearing Sakura’s life to pieces for no reason other then because he can. I remember once reading online a funny little joke that even Kirei, when he looks at himself in the mirror at night can say to himself “At least I’m not Zouken”.
Anyway, yeah i hate Zouken just as much as Tohsaka, as i said, i hold them both responsible for the wreck that Sakura’s life became. Its just that Tokiomi’s complete ignorance, combined with his extreme confidence that he is right really rubs me the wrong way. Also, Zouken is a Villain, we are supposed to hate him. Whereas Tohsaka is just a loving father who is a little too focused on magic over his family, and makes horrible, idiotic decisions confident that he is right when the truth couldn’t be further from that. The fact that Rin idolizes someone like him just irritates me more.
(Also, it ticks me off that he made the choice for Sakura without even asking her what she wanted, cause i don’t think she would have given a crap about learning magic compared to staying with him and her Sis and Mother She wouldn’t have cared about not being the heir to the family)
> I mean this an observation, not as a legitimate defence for Tokiomi. When Sakura and Rin were little, he knew that they both possess inherent extraordinary potential to be magi. His life revolves on thinking like a traditional magus, even his concept of what it means to be a father. For him, he justifies sending Sakura to the Matou family is a way so she can learn magecraft and protect herself from people who want to take advantage of her potential. In Tokiomi’s mind, he can’t imagine the child from a magus’ family to be anything but a mage, especially given what he thinks Sakura would be able to achieve.
Mind you, I think you’re still right – that doesn’t absolve of the responsibility of sending his younger daughter into the worst possible environment as well as failing to take into account how that will affect his daughters and his wife, even if Tokiomi was completely ignorant of what Zouken intended to do to Sakura.
In fact, I agree that Sakura probably wouldn’t have challenged Rin to be the heir to the family if she had stayed with the Tohsaka. Tokiomi’s actions probably set up the crux of Sakura’s resentment towards Rin, that finally comes to the forefront in the Heaven’s Feel arc of F/S-N. Years of not being acknowledged by Rin, who has been living in denial that Sakura is probably living a magic-free life over at the Matous, is part of the reason why Sakura becomes so ruthless and destructive in Heaven’s Feel.
Can’t you see I’m happy!? I gave my sister a taste of what I suffered as a kid, and now I’m about to cleanse the world of filth!
Also, it ticks me off that he made the choice for Sakura without even asking her what she wanted, cause i don’t think she would have given a crap about learning magic compared to staying with him and her Sis and Mother She wouldn’t have cared about not being the heir to the family)
This is something I have to comment on. Frankly speaking, this is quite a weak argument. Are you actually a parent? Cause if you are, you should know parents will do whatever they think is the best for their child. This is a dumb example, but let’s say you want to cross a street, but the traffic lights are red. Are your parents trying to ask you first or stop you? Not asking Sakura is something natural parents will do. Not that I think Tokiomi did something good, but if he had good intentions in mind for Sakura, then I don’t blame him too much. The only one who would deserve all this hatred is Zouken and no one else. Seeing Sakura again at the basement of the Clock Tower sealed off was surely not better.
And no, you should play Heaven’s Feel again. The Tohsaka clan has very limited information about Matou and especially Zouken, else Rin would know a shit-ton more about Zouken. He never participated in the wars(until FSN) and only left the house when he was trying to sustain his body the last 200 years. Thanks to his sorcery trait of absorption, not even the Magic Association or the Second Owners of Fuyuki, the Tohsaka clan, knew what he was doing. You are completely overestimating the investigation skills of magi regarding the Matou family. Cutting all ties with Matou btw was something Tokiomi agreed on because that was Zouken’s condition. Considering Tokiomi hadn’t found another declining magi family who would take in Sakura, it was a convenient sounding offer.
As keenly observed by many above, oh the irony that the Azoth dagger Kirei used to literally backstab Tokiomi with was the same one that led to Show Spoiler ▼
I dunno about the rest of you, but I couldn’t help but LOL at Tokiomi’s OMGWTF trolled expression. Bet he totally did not see that coming, did he?
Much like Verdant, guess I don’t have much attachment to Tokiomi as I had with Lancer.
pathetic end tokiomi…
I actually wanted to see Tokiomi fighting, he looked pretty strong… bummer. Hope Kirei makes up for it.
Rejoice! Your wish will finally be granted… in a few episodes…
As i don’t feel much for Tokiomi himself, i feel pretty bad for Aoi loosing her husband, and Rin for the loss of her dad. But then again, i guess they were somewhat prepared for the worsk. It’s war, after all.
*Worst…worsk, of all things.
Magic circle in the garage…
book being given to Rin…
So many tie ins to F/SN…
Can’t help to think most of the events that will happen in F/SN is Tokiomi’s fault…
Yep all his fault…
He made Kirei his apprentice …
and he gave Sakura to the Matou…
Thats 2 if not all 3 routes caused by his actions…
For those who watched or read F/SN, you didn’t notice something?
Show Spoiler ▼
Show Spoiler ▼
Let’s make this clear once and for all. NO, Tokiomi did not give the jewel in this episode, only the book. Rin found it in her house after decoding the will. She found it on the day of the summoning.
That scene with Rin here was exactly like in the LN and the VN. Well not quite exact because Rin was suppose to be silent and surprised at Tokiomi’s actions.
I guess they’re going for a happy Rin here so that when she learns of the developments the shock value is higher.
Yeah, I remember that scene in the visual novel but I thought Tokiomi gave her that jewel. But you are right, forgot that Tohsaka’s magic is mostly jewel usage.
Tokiomi got trolled lol.
I don’t think he was ever meant to be a sympathetic character though, so his death isn’t really much of a loss. That face when he gets stabbed though? Maybe I’m just sadistic, but that was awesome 😛
And also, funny that you should mention Yamato Nadeshiko, since Show Spoiler ▼
A comparison between Iri and Aoi is pretty interesting though, since they have similar roles in life: wife and mother. While I can’t say Aoi fails at being either one, Iri pretty much has her beat in every aspect.
Say, have you dropped Aquarion EVOL? There’s been no mention of it on the blog even though Episode 18’s been out for several days now…
A fine example of backstabbing!
Next Episode Kiritsugu’s past!
Next next episode Show Spoiler ▼
Next next next episode RIDER VS SABER IN JOUSTING!
Episodes like this just go to show that an anime series does NOT require huge, flashy battles, random comedy, ecchi/borderline H moments, and such every single episode to be a superb series.
I don’t think I have ever seen any other character raise so many death flags than Tokiomi. But, even so, that stabbing scene was done so well, that even though you knew it was coming, if felt like a real shock when it actually happened.
I have never read the novels for F/Z so I shall say that I really thought that Tokiomi would have lasted longer. It is a shame though that we didn’t get to see more magic from him.
Saber’s bike rocked.
Okay, at one point I really thought that Iri was going to collapse in the church, but I’m glad that she didn’t and the whole conversation with Maiya was really touching. Oh Iri… I sort of feel like she going to be next on the death list..
Rin was so cute in that scene… I wonder if we’ll get to see her reaction when she finds out what happened to her dad. If we do, I know I’ll be crying bucket loads with her.
But, I have to say that as much as I love Rin, I can’t sympathize with Tokiomi death the way I sympathized with Lancer’s. I think as a father, he failed in his job. He was indeed a magus and a traditional one till the end… but as a father, he failed. He just literally placed both of his daughters in grave danger present (f/n) and in the future (Fate – SN & UBW… sorry never played the game, so I can’t comment on Heaven’s Feel)
Now, I really can’t wait for the Berserker arch and the Rider one.
I’ll just leave this here
One word Tokiomi: KARMA.
One word Gil: The oldest known troll..
One word Kirei: Creepy.
Nevar forgetz about what Tokiomi did to Sakura. NEVAR FORGET!
can I just ask: Why is Fate/Zero all the rage atm? I watched the first series like years ago and now all the sudden we’ve had Fate/Zero – Carnival Phantasm and now Fate/Zero 2….its like ‘wheres all this come from’ lol
Say it with me!
I don’t recall there being a Fate Stay/Night anime series. If so, which route was it?
Fate? Heaven’s Feel? UBW?
The anime they made was based on the Fate route, with bits and pieces of UBW and HF mixed in to increase the length of the story. However they cut out almost all of the character stuff and introspection to skip to the fighting, and as a result its nowhere near as good as this Fate Zero anime. They also made a movie based on the UBW route, but again, they cut almost everything that wasn’t action, making it impossible to understand if you hadn’t already seen Fate Stay Night.
Overall the FSN suff made by Studio DEEN is pretty average and not that great, which is why im hoping that type moon see’s how well ufotable is doing with Fate Zero and asks them to do a remake of FSN covering all 3 routes, or at least do the HF route which has never been animated.
Consider just for a moment, that Kirei spoke the truth. Then re-watch just what exactly Irisviel speaks off when she confesses her failing status.
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Even in the future, Fate/Zero remains one of the best anime. Have you been living under a rock?
WTF with this Holy Grail War
3 master DEAD, 2 by gun and 1 by Dagger
We cant say its war of magus and magician anymore.
and Kotomine Kirei has unlimited “Command Spell” He Cheated he use “GAMESHARK”
Back stabber, lol. Here, take this dagger, I just dismissed you from the war, no hard feelings.
in f/sn, didn’t Tokiomi give Rin a jewel during their final meeting? how is it suddenly a book?
Short version: Read the VN
Long version: No he did not give the jewel. She found that jewel just recently in a safe in her house after decoding her father’s will.